When you play the Game of Thrones...

[TheSummoner]

Really? Because I love it...

The pragmatists tend to win their confrontations and Ned learned the hard way that honor before reason

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doesn't help your life expectancy...

[Xondoure]

Really? Because I love it...

The pragmatists tend to win their confrontations and Ned learned the hard way that honor before reason

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doesn't help your life expectancy...

While I did enjoy it (but found a few parts hard to watch because I knew what was coming) I'd like to point out

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Ned did the reasonable thing, because his daughters were on the line.

[TheSummoner]

Yes... at that point, Ned did the reasonable thing... But honor before reason is what got him in that situation in the first place...

Telling Cersei was probably the stupidest thing he could've done.

[Zocelot]

Yes... at that point, Ned did the reasonable thing... But honor before reason is what got him in that situation in the first place...

Telling Cersei was probably the stupidest thing he could've done.

Not as stupid as not telling Robert. Yes, he was dying, but he still would have executed the majority of the Lannisters as one of his final acts.

[TheSummoner]

Nah... Robert was in no condition to... Well... Do anything and we all saw how much respect Cersei/Joffrey had for his written wishes.

[Da'Shain]

Agreed, if Robert had tried to do anything they almost certainly would've written it off as dying ravings, and Ned would probably have been imprisoned sooner for "taking advantage of the king's wounds" or something.

[Seerow]

I don't see how that needs a spoiler considering the episode already aired, but...

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Yes. Ned just got beheaded because Joffrey is a little prick who would kill the man for spite. Hell, Varys said it perfectly... Theres more use in a tame wolf than a dead one. Ned was going to submit for his family's sake. They had him in the best possible position for their interests. Cercei, bitch or not, knew this. She had planned for this. She wanted this. But like I said, Joffrey is a spiteful little prick. I'm really hoping his impulsiveness and spitefulness will come back to bite him in the ass later.

Other thoughts... Jorah was awesome even though he has his armor to thank for saving his ass. As ominous as the scene seemed, I'm guessing taking Danerys into the tent was the stupidest damn thing he could've done (what's her name the witch said no one should go in there...)

Whatshisname... The old guy who was Filch from the HP movies... Frey I think it was... He seems like a real creeper...

Oh, and anyone else notice that the opening changes between episodes? Different parts of the map are shown... I kinda thought I saw it before but this episode confirmed it for me... Last few episodes, I remember showing off The Eyrie, but this one showed off The Twins...

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Fun facts that may interest you as a non-reader (no spoilers really, just details that weren't shown in the show):
1) The sword that Ser Illyn used to behead Eddard Stark was Ned's own sword, Ice. Look at it, then go back and check the sword Ned used in the first episode. It's not made clear in the show, but it is the same sword.

2) Lord Frey in the books was in fact like 90 years old. How's that for a creeper? I'm not sure who's worse, him or Lady Arryn. Also every person in that room with them was a son, daughter, or other descendant of Lord Frey. I think he's got like 40 heirs or something like that.

3) Maester Aemon was actually tested 3 times, not once, but it was trimmed to 1 in the show presumably for time. The first was when he first joined the watch, and was a young man, and the second time while he was in his prime. Only the last time happened with him old and fail. I believe one or two of those times had he opted to leave he could have been King. The third time he likely would have just gotten himself killed, which just makes it all the more cruel. I wish I had my GoT novel so I could get the transcript of that conversation.

[Cristo Meyers]

I don't see how that needs a spoiler considering the episode already aired, but...

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...

Other thoughts... Jorah was awesome even though he has his armor to thank for saving his ass. As ominous as the scene seemed, I'm guessing taking Danerys into the tent was the stupidest damn thing he could've done (what's her name the witch said no one should go in there...)

...

I loved how Jorah's scene played out.

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When he was fighting Drogo's bloodrider (bodyguard), I actually said "you're in plate, he's got a scimitar, trap his damn sword!"

Then he does, and that's one less horselord.

[Zmflavius]

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2) Lord Frey in the books was in fact like 90 years old. How's that for a creeper? I'm not sure who's worse, him or Lady Arryn. Also every person in that room with them was a son, daughter, or other descendant of Lord Frey. I think he's got like 40 heirs or something like that.

3) Maester Aemon was actually tested 3 times, not once, but it was trimmed to 1 in the show presumably for time. The first was when he first joined the watch, and was a young man, and the second time while he was in his prime. Only the last time happened with him old and fail. I believe one or two of those times had he opted to leave he could have been King. The third time he likely would have just gotten himself killed, which just makes it all the more cruel. I wish I had my GoT novel so I could get the transcript of that conversation.

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2) A little over a hundred actually.

3) “Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first. My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother’s poor grandson, and his son, and even the little children..."

[Seerow]

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2) A little over a hundred actually.

3) “Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first. My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother’s poor grandson, and his son, and even the little children..."

Thanks for that. I could have sworn there was more detail on what the first two were, but I guess I just misremembered.

And wow I way misremembered on the number of heirs. That's ridiculous.

[Somebloke]

To be honest, apart from the

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death of Drogo and the funeral pyre scene

I am a little curious as to how they're going to pad out the last episode.

[Zmflavius]

Thanks for that. I could have sworn there was more detail on what the first two were, but I guess I just misremembered.

And wow I way misremembered on the number of heirs. That's ridiculous.

Well, I'm including grandsons and great grandsons and bastards. And I only copied the important part of the convo.

To be honest, apart from the

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death of Drogo and the funeral pyre scene

I am a little curious as to how they're going to pad out the last episode.

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KING IN THE NORTH! KING IN THE NORTH! KING IN THE NORTH!

[Dornath]

I hate this show...

Don't lose hope Keld!

Just as a oint of interest. GRRM has stated in multiple interviews that his vision for the end of the series (Books, not this season) is every character dead on a frozen field.

Basically what I'm saying is, don't get too attached to any character.

Spoilers for book 3

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Unfortunately I'm guilty of this with both Robb (Red Wedding bastards) and Jaime. Hopefully Jaime won't die... but since his Redemption I'm expecting him to kick the bucket.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Just as a oint of interest. GRRM has stated in multiple interviews that his vision for the end of the series (Books, not this season) is every character dead on a frozen field.

Basically what I'm saying is, don't get too attached to any character.

Uhhh ... what?

Can you link me to one of these? Because if it's true then I might not even keep reading. **** that for a laugh.

EDIT: Read this, calmed down (careful, there be book spoilers hidden within the comments). Still, if I thought that would happen then I'd just walk away from the books now.

[Eldan]

Uhhh ... what?

Can you link me to one of these? Because if it's true then I might not even keep reading. **** that for a laugh.

He is probably at least slightly joking. The internet loves making a huge fuzz about how incredibly dark and brutal this series is.

[hamlet]

If non-readers are this worked up about Ned's . . ahem . . . erm . . .

Then I'm gonna be very interested to see the reactions to next week's revelations.

[Eldan]

God was I ever laughing about that guy's video review. I'm a bad, bad person.

[Axolotl]

Really? Because I love it...

The pragmatists tend to win their confrontations and Ned learned the hard way that honor before reason

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doesn't help your life expectancy...

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I'm sure Stannis would disagree.

[hamlet]

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I'm sure Stannis would disagree.

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Well, let's be honest with ourselves. Stannis was born with a stick up his backside so large it's amazing he managed to get himself a daughter in the first place.

[Axolotl]

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Well, let's be honest with ourselves. Stannis was born with a stick up his backside so large it's amazing he managed to get himself a daughter in the first place.

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Yes but he always put honor before reason and now he's alive while all the other original claimants to the throne are dead.

[Seerow]

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Yes but he always put honor before reason and now he's alive while all the other original claimants to the throne are dead.

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I think you're ignoring the parts where he has an ongoing adulterous relationship with Mel, agreed to a plan that involved killing his brother so he could take over his army (in a world where Kinslaying is among the worst and most dishonorable things a person can do), and probably other things as well I'm not thinking of offhand.

Stannis does not put honor above all else, he is one of the biggest hypocrites in the series, in that he claims it is merely honor that drives him, but backpedals on his principles when it is useful to achieve his goal

[Axolotl]

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I think you're ignoring the parts where he has an ongoing adulterous relationship with Mel, agreed to a plan that involved killing his brother so he could take over his army (in a world where Kinslaying is among the worst and most dishonorable things a person can do), and probably other things as well I'm not thinking of offhand.

Stannis does not put honor above all else, he is one of the biggest hypocrites in the series, in that he claims it is merely honor that drives him, but backpedals on his principles when it is useful to achieve his goal

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But it's fairly explicit that he doesn't know about the shadow assassins. I'll grant you that it's implied that he has had an affair with her (but we don't know any details of that).

He is however the only leader who responds to the walls call for aid. He gives up his current plans for defeating the Lannisters to ionstead hyelp the realm against the wildlings despite the fact that they threaten his enemies far more than they threaten him.

Now I'll admit that Stanis isn't a nice guy but he's far more honourable than anyone else in the series (except possibly a couple of less important characters).

[McStabbington]

Actually, I think G.R.R.M. did a wonderful job of setting up exactly how Ned would act when pushed to the wall. While we don't get a sense of exactly what happened, we know that Ned Stark's honor is not inviolate, because if it were, Jon Snow would not exist. Further, the easiest thing in the world would have been to pretend that Snow did not exist, but instead he brought him to Winterfell and, as much as possible, raised him as a son. Devotion to those he considers family has always been the chink in Ned's honor (see what I did there?). Combine that with the fact that he was always haunted by what the Lannisters did to the Targaryens, including murdering innocent children.

I thought it was a masterful presentation of a man who was sympathetic and honorable, but with flaws that someone like Cersei would simply run rings around. Of course, as in so many things, Cersei's strengths can also be flaws when placed in the wrong situation, and I think ultimately we're going to see that the same traits that make climbing on the Throne make sitting on it precarious at best. Great series so far.

[Seerow]

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But it's fairly explicit that he doesn't know about the shadow assassins. I'll grant you that it's implied that he has had an affair with her (but we don't know any details of that).

He is however the only leader who responds to the walls call for aid. He gives up his current plans for defeating the Lannisters to ionstead hyelp the realm against the wildlings despite the fact that they threaten his enemies far more than they threaten him.

Now I'll admit that Stanis isn't a nice guy but he's far more honourable than anyone else in the series (except possibly a couple of less important characters).

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He doesn't know about the Shadow Assassins, but he does know that there is some sort of ritual (which is presumably how he got talked into having sex with Mel at the start). An honorable person might have said "Cheat on my wife to finish a ritual to kill my brother so I can be King? Hell no" instead Stannis goes "Okay, being King is my birthright so let's go for it, who cares what I have to do to get there". Hardly the acts of someone who places honor above everything as far as I'm concerned.

I believe Stannis is very idealistic about honor, but in truth he's hard pressed to hold the ideal. As I recall, it was Davos who talked Stannis into going to the Wall rather than continuing his war against the Lannisters. I'm also willing to bet if Stannis was in any position to win that war, he wouldn't have picked up and left. You even see him justify it later, saying he's been going about getting Kingship the wrong way, instead of conquering the Kingdom to become King he's decided to instead defend the Kingdom to become King. It's still all about #1 Stannis, and how to make him King, not about any honor that is being upheld by going.

[Cristo Meyers]

Of course, as in so many things, Cersei's strengths can also be flaws when placed in the wrong situation, and I think ultimately we're going to see that the same traits that make climbing on the Throne make sitting on it precarious at best. Great series so far.

I've always seen Cersei's biggest flaw as the fact that she's not nearly as competant as she likes to think she is. She outmanuevers all of two people in the series as of book 3:

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Robert and Ned. Neither are exactly political masterminds. Both are utterly predictable and Ned is so hidebound to his own personal sense of honor that it borders on Too Dumb to Live. Any time she goes up against anyone that's actually competant at manipulation or doesn't have the deck firmly stacked in her favor she gets her head handed to her. It happens repeatedly with Tyrion all through book 2.

[hamlet]

Actually, I think G.R.R.M. did a wonderful job of setting up exactly how Ned would act when pushed to the wall. While we don't get a sense of exactly what happened, we know that Ned Stark's honor is not inviolate, because if it were, Jon Snow would not exist.

That presumes that Ned is Jon Snow's father.

[McStabbington]

I've always seen Cersei's biggest flaw as the fact that she's not nearly as competant as she likes to think she is. She outmanuevers all of two people in the series as of book 3:

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Robert and Ned. Neither are exactly political masterminds. Both are utterly predictable and Ned is so hidebound to his own personal sense of honor that it borders on Too Dumb to Live. Any time she goes up against anyone that's actually competant at manipulation or doesn't have the deck firmly stacked in her favor she gets her head handed to her. It happens repeatedly with Tyrion all through book 2.

Sort of. Her primary gift is finding the position of strength in a situation and getting to it. The problem for her is that when she's not in a position of strength, she's got nothing. That's actually part of her character: she hates being a woman because she sees this as being a woman's flaw. Someone who can be in a position of weakness and still work the system to his own advantage, like Tyrion, is someone who she simply cannot handle, because her refusal to accept being in a position of weakness doesn't allow her to handle it. As I said, her greatest flaw is her strength put in a position where it can't work.

[hamlet]

Sort of. Her primary gift is finding the position of strength in a situation and getting to it. The problem for her is that when she's not in a position of strength, she's got nothing. That's actually part of her character: she hates being a woman because she sees this as being a woman's flaw. Someone who can be in a position of weakness and still work the system to his own advantage, like Tyrion, is someone who she simply cannot handle, because her refusal to accept being in a position of weakness doesn't allow her to handle it. As I said, her greatest flaw is her strength put in a position where it can't work.

Actually, I always thought her flaw was, as mentioned before, simply not being as capable as she imagines. As you say, she's capable enough when she's in the right position and all the cards are in her favor, but when that situation is not so, she's an also ran. The real problem is that she's blind to the fact and does not compensate for it, and so she really shows her true colors as a 2nd stringer at best, and a lunatic through and through.

[valadil]

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He doesn't know about the Shadow Assassins, but he does know that there is some sort of ritual (which is presumably how he got talked into having sex with Mel at the start). An honorable person might have said "Cheat on my wife to finish a ritual to kill my brother so I can be King? Hell no" instead Stannis goes "Okay, being King is my birthright so let's go for it, who cares what I have to do to get there". Hardly the acts of someone who places honor above everything as far as I'm concerned.

Speculation on Stannis. Possible book spoilers.

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That's a valid interpretation. Mine is a little more forgiving to Stannis, but I don't think he's gotten enough attention for us to be sure. I see Stannis as someone who is, in D&D terms, LN slipping to LE. He wants to uphold what is just and honorable, but keeps sinking lower and lower to do so. It's hard to say where he'll stop. I think he does care about the things Melisandre makes him do, but he's able to justify them for the greater good.

Sort of. Her primary gift is finding the position of strength in a situation and getting to it. The problem for her is that when she's not in a position of strength, she's got nothing.

Cersei is a bully. She knows how to push you around when she has obvious power over you. As a Lannister, she often has power over people. It's like playing poker with someone who has 10 times the chips you do. They can force you to fold or go all in each and every hand. And until a winning hand comes up, they'll slowly drain you of chips/power until you can't possibly win.

[VanBuren]

That presumes that Ned is Jon Snow's father.

Which is the assumption Ned gives everyone, including Jon. Really, the only canonical mystery at this point is the identity of the mother. It's just that Lyanna became a popular theory, and it's highly unlikely that Ned is the father in that scenario.

Not that it's a bad theory (I like it, in fact), but it's only one. And IIRC, it's the only that that excludes Ned as the father.