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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Please help with a psion build

    Hello all, I am trying to come up with a level 12 build for a tiefling or changeling psion in an Eberron campaign we will be starting next weekend. I am trying to concentrate on control powers. I would appreciate any advice on powers, feats and paragon paths.

    Thank You All
    Amaranth

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Feats: You'll want:

    Heroic (roughly in order of priority):

    • Orb Expertise
    • Superior Implement Training (Accurate Orb) or (Crystal Orb) if you're going for a Telepath build.
    • Impending Victory (remember your 'Encounters', i.e. Augments are still At-Wills)
    • Unarmored Defense
    • Imperious Majesty (if a Telepath Tiefling; less crucial if you have the Orb of Nimble Thoughts)
    • Superior Will
    • Skill Power (I recommend Strategist's Epiphany L2 History, Insightful Riposte L16 Insight)
    • Multiclass Feats
    • Superior Reflexes
    • Improved Defenses (if not getting the Superior Line)
    • Vistani Heritage is also a good choice; Evil Eye of the Vistani is awesome; great set up + control, and it opens up scoring Restoration Rituals (like Raise Dead and Remove Affliction) for free with:
    • Vistani Healer (though you can choose one of the other free Ritual options if you like).
    • Bard/Cleric Multiclass feat/Mark of Shadow to satisfy Paragon Path Prerequisites.


    Paragon:

    • Belial's Secrets (Serpent's Cunning) is a must have. First thing you get at Paragon. Replace your L6 Utility with Serpent's Cunning. Simply broken.
    • Psychic Lock is a must have if you're a Telepath. Second priority after Belial's Secrets
    • Dispater's Iron Discipline is a must have. Doubly so if you have Superior Will which it synergizes with; virtual immunity to dazed/stunned/domination.
    • Dominating Mind is a must have if you use any save ends effects that would benefit from this.


    Class Features: Pick the Shaper Psion option; the Shaped Consciousness is ridiculously versatile, and is leagues better than the other options. Overall I would recommend specializing in Charisma as a secondary stat, and abusing those powers that utilize it.

    At-Wills (Telepath build):

    • Mind Thrust
    • Dishearten
    • Psychic Anomaly
    • Ego Whip in place of one of the above if you _really_ want to penalize saves.


    Dailies (Telepath build):

    • Level 1, Living Missile. Accept no substitutes. Even when it misses it still does its job almost at full efficacy, and it does that job _well_.
    • Level 5, Hypnotic Pulse or Force Spheres. I prefer Hypnotic Pulse due to being vs Will and Psychic damage. It is definitely the better choice when you have Dominating Mind and other save penalizers.
    • Level 9, Mind Blast. Accept no substitutes.


    Utilities (Telepath build):

    • Level 2. Intellect Fortress. Accept no substitutes.
    • Level 6. Replaced with Serpent's Cunning.
    • Level 10. Intellect Leech, or Mind Over Flesh.


    Paragon Paths:

    • Divine Oracle. Broken. Needs multiclass Cleric feat. More accessible for Telekines.
    • Lifesinger. Underwhelming except for the L16 feature which is broken. Needs multiclass Bard feat.
    • Infernal Eye. Tiefling exclusive Paragon Path. Everything about this is awesome.
    • Dreamwalker. Even more Shaped Consciousness style versatility; everything about this Paragon Path is great.
    • Phiarlan Phantasmist. THE choice for save penalization. Take Wild Talent and pick up Psionic Image to use its awesome L16 feature at-will. Needs Mark of Shadow feat.
    • Timebender. Good PP, slightly better for Telekines.


    Items:

    Not going to list them all, but these are ones you _definitely_ want:

    • Flowform Armor (L4 Armor): Save as No Action once per encounter with an Augmentable bonus is awesome.
    • Orb of Nimble Thoughts (L3 Orb): Intelligence bonus to initiative plus the Encounter power makes this an item tax.
    • Orb of Mental Dominion (L6 Orb): Totally sweet with Mind Blast or Hypnotic Pulse for your level.
    • Staff of Aversion (L2 Staff): You will almost always subject an opponent to an effect of yours.
    • Phylactery of Action (L3 Arms): Reroll a saving throw against a huge range of conditions as No Action. Awesome, great synergy with Flowform Armor.
    • Amulet of Elegy/Cloak of Distortion (L2/L3 Neck): Considerable penalty to the first saving throw of all targets or a considerable defensive bonus. Either is great.
    • Resplendent Gloves (L5 Gloves): Nice bit of bonus damage all the time.
    • Orb of Fickle Fate (L4 Orb): Paragon version imposes a hefty -4 penalty/+4 saving throw bonus. Keep one of these on hand to swap in when you use your save penalizers.
    • Phrenic Crown (L7 Head): Great save penalization. You want this.
    • Curse Eye Tattoo (L8 Tattoo): You want this for save penalization.

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    [*]Superior Implement Focus (Accurate Orb) or (Crystal Orb) if you're going for a Telepath build.[*]Divine Oracle. Broken. Needs multiclass Cleric feat. More accessible for Telekines.
    I only did a cursory glance but I found one error and one thing I will disagree with.

    It's Superior Implement Training. Implement Focus gives a bonus to damage and, well, damage doesn't matter to a Control character.

    Divine Oracle is great, but probably not broken if you follow Surrealistik's advise. Rolling twice for init? Good, but doable with a feat. Automatic crit? Decent. But remember that you are now doing 0 damage to let someone else get maximum damage. So it's not as good as it appears (but it's still good). Extra move action on an AP? Pretty good, but often not that useful since you'll be in the backlines anyway. Giving your allies +5 to hit but an inability to crit? Good in the right circumstances, sure, but it's definitely party dependent. (If you have a Daggermaster or Avenger they definitely won't like this.)

    All those abilities are solid but the real power comes in at 16 when you can reroll Will attacks. This is flat-out amazing. But it comes in at level 16. If you don't expect the game to last 4 levels, I'd probably consider other paragon paths.

    I'll also suggest a build for a half Psion controller: http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...rbizardInvoker It really comes into its own at level 13 (but will still function very well at level 12). Your DM will cry.
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    I only did a cursory glance but I found one error and one thing I will disagree with.

    It's Superior Implement Training. Implement Focus gives a bonus to damage and, well, damage doesn't matter to a Control character.
    Yes that's what was meant; the Accurate/Crystal implement references were the clue (obviously Focus was not meant given their existence). Fixed.

    Divine Oracle is great, but probably not broken if you follow Surrealistik's advise. Rolling twice for init? Good, but doable with a feat.
    Baked in immunity to surprise is also great.

    Automatic crit? Decent. But remember that you are now doing 0 damage to let someone else get maximum damage. So it's not as good as it appears (but it's still good).
    Losing the ability to hand out effects is what's really painful, DPR considerations are secondary. That said, this power is easily worth it in any party with an optimized striker.

    Extra move action on an AP? Pretty good, but often not that useful since you'll be in the backlines anyway. Giving your allies +5 to hit but an inability to crit? Good in the right circumstances, sure, but it's definitely party dependent. (If you have a Daggermaster or Avenger they definitely won't like this.)
    _Most_ paragon parties will be able to make excellent use of the daily utility without being impeded. Its failings are 'party dependent' not its appeal.

    All those abilities are solid but the real power comes in at 16 when you can reroll Will attacks. This is flat-out amazing. But it comes in at level 16. If you don't expect the game to last 4 levels, I'd probably consider other paragon paths.
    Yes, that's what I mean by broken. The rest of the Paragon Path is still amazing given the alternatives however. The downside of the L16 feature is completely negated by Superior Will + Dispater's Iron Discipline.

    I'll also suggest a build for a half Psion controller: http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...rbizardInvoker It really comes into its own at level 13 (but will still function very well at level 12). Your DM will cry.
    Without the Orb of Imposition it loses quite a bit of bite; would advise against it overall.

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Yeah, you throw around the term "broken" way too easily. Serpent's Cunning doesn't even look terribly good to me, let alone broken.

    1. It's a daily, not an encounter.
    2. +1 to attack. Woopity doo. +1 is not that big a deal.
    3. The other effects of this power are pretty "meh".

    Broken means "too powerful for the system, should not be allowed" (or "so terrible and useless, why the hell did they make this?" a la Truenamer). It does not simply mean "good" or even "really good".

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Alright, Serpent's Cunning is 'merely' very good, such that it's a top priority and a must have. A utility power which gives you +1 to all attacks, +2 to all int skills/checks, and a free skill of your choice with each extended rest until the next extended rest is about as good as you can get without actually 'breaking' anything. This is decisively superior to most L16 PP features considered competitive.

    My definition of 'broken' is essentially anything that's a blatant pick, a must have, but yes, in a more technical/generally accepted sense, it is something that is way too good, or that simply doesn't work.

    That said, the Divine Oracle and Lifesinger L16 features are definitely broken.

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    At third level, take Betrayal and never let it go. Lelouch vi Britannia commands it.
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    More seriously Betrayal is stupidly situational, requiring your target to have an enemy within 2 squares of it (well 3 when used with Orb Expertise) without an Augment 2 to be of any use.

    Mind Thrust and Dishearten are must-have givens; the former imposes ridiculous penalties to defenses and has nice synergy with your attack granters unaugmented, while the latter features ridiculous at-will AoE attack penalties.

    Psychic Anomaly, the only power you can possibly contemplate giving up is almost certainly better than Betrayal; party friendly psychic typed psuedo AoE with forced movement & flanking or dazing.

    I will admit Betrayal is fun though.

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Betrayal auto-scales, and the Augment 2 is fairly good all the way through Epic... so long as the DM doesn't decide to start using only Solos or monsters with terrible MBAs.
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    I agree but you should be safe and ask about that stuff.
    If there will be many boss fights/ solos/ battles with a small group of elites.
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Betrayal auto-scales, and the Augment 2 is fairly good all the way through Epic... so long as the DM doesn't decide to start using only Solos or monsters with terrible MBAs.
    It also requires 2 attack rolls, and again at least 2 enemies to be useful at all, and these enemies also have to be in close proximity without Augmentation (honestly, you have better options virtually all of the time when it comes to 2 PPs). Contrast this with Psychic Anomaly being useful in virtually any situation, which features a party friendly AoE daze with its Augment 2 option.

    While Betrayal may be more tenable later on when your Charisma modifier becomes high enough to essentially dispense with any appreciable fail chance on the second roll, by the time this happens there are far better choices: Forced Opportunity and Sudden Control (which is hella sweet, and allows the creature to target itself).

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by Annulus View Post
    Yeah, you throw around the term "broken" way too easily. Serpent's Cunning doesn't even look terribly good to me, let alone broken.
    Correct. It's not a must-have either, it's actually pretty boring and you'd get more mileage out of a power like Illusory Wall.

    Also, Surrealistik's advice focuses way too much on feats that give small numerical bonuses. You're not a defender, so there are much better feats than getting +2 to one defense. Instead, I'd recommend to start with a multiclass feat, Skill Power, and Improved Initiative, because that gives you a much greater benefit to actual control.

    It's kind of funny how all 3E optimizers realize that Weapon Focus (+1 to hit for the price of one feat) is a pretty bad deal because statistically it doesn't do much, whereas in 4E which uses the exact same d20-vs-target-number system, people call any +1 bonus gamebreakingly good. No, boosting something you can already do by 5 or 10 percent is absolutely not gamebreaking in any game.
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Correct. It's not a must-have either, it's actually pretty boring and you'd get more mileage out of a power like Illusory Wall.

    Also, Surrealistik's advice focuses way too much on feats that give small numerical bonuses. You're not a defender, so there are much better feats than getting +2 to one defense. Instead, I'd recommend to start with a multiclass feat, Skill Power, and Improved Initiative, because that gives you a much greater benefit to actual control.

    It's kind of funny how all 3E optimizers realize that Weapon Focus (+1 to hit for the price of one feat) is a pretty bad deal because statistically it doesn't do much, whereas in 4E which uses the exact same d20-vs-target-number system, people call any +1 bonus gamebreakingly good. No, boosting something you can already do by 5 or 10 percent is absolutely not gamebreaking in any game.
    In all fairness, you just compared a level 10 utility that is quite possibly the best utility power in the game (Illusory Wall) to a level 6 utility.

    I'm a big fan of Superior Reflexes. Getting automatic combat advantage in the first round is huge - that's +2 to hit during the most important round of combat. That's when you'll be locking down your enemies. Also, +3 reflexes, but meh.

    Also, you compared +1 damage to +1 to hit? That's also not very fair. +1 to damage is usually pretty bad, but +1 to hit can be very, very good: especially for a controller. All those +1's to hit can really add up. Each may only be 5% by themselves, but if you get 4 of them? That's a big difference.

    Also, boost your initiative. Seriously, boost it. I don't care how, just make sure that you go first every single round. Improved Initiative? Mandatory. Danger Sense? Also mandatory. Finding a way to get Orbs as an implement so you can take Orb of Nimble Thoughts +1 and carry it around everywhere you go? Highly, highly recommended. I can't stress enough how important it is to be able to go first. You can always delay to go later, but most of the time you want to get in your lockdown before team monster can do anything.
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    In all fairness, you just compared a level 10 utility that is quite possibly the best utility power in the game (Illusory Wall) to a level 6 utility.
    Okay, so take Wall of Fog instead. Not as good as Illusory Wall, but still gives better control than Serpent's Cunning. The point is that there are several excellent utility powers in the game, so it's not helpful to state that there is only one mandatory option for Secrets of Belial.

    I'm a big fan of Superior Reflexes. Getting automatic combat advantage in the first round is huge
    Again with the overstatement. There are so many ways to gain CA and the problem is that none of them stack; heck, a simple stealth check can often give you CA as well. Sure, +2 to hit for a round is nice, but it's not "huge", "overpowered", or "gamebreaking".

    Also, you compared +1 damage to +1 to hit?
    No. +1 damage is an utter waste of a feat for anyone who's not a striker, and quite possibly for strikers as well. +1 to hit is certainly not a waste, but neither is it a "must-have", or "gamebreaking", or your absolute top priority at level one.
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Again with the overstatement. There are so many ways to gain CA and the problem is that none of them stack; heck, a simple stealth check can often give you CA as well. Sure, +2 to hit for a round is nice, but it's not "huge", "overpowered", or "gamebreaking".
    I never used the term overpowered or gamebreaking. Haha. However, +2 to hit in the first round is huge. If your initiative is very high, you will find yourself going before anyone else. This makes it incredibly difficult to get combat advantage. Your party can't give it to you when they haven't even acted yet. It's up to you to give it to yourself. For starters, a Psion is an Int-based class, not Dex-based, so the chances of a successful stealth check is very low. A lot more resources than 1 feat would have to be invested to make the check. Then, couple that with the fact that it doesn't work for the whole round and you've got a losing proposition. The first round is the most important for a controller. This is when you will likely be action pointing or giving yourself extra standard actions via other shenanigans. Superior Reflexes works for the entire first round. Stealth doesn't.

    And I believe that +2 is a big difference. A controller will usually be attacking more than 1 creature and spending that action point in round 1. It's the round when you want all the +attack bonuses you can get.

    Also, +3 reflexes, but whatever. That's just icing.

    I actually agree with your other points, I just feel you went overboard in your reactions. Serpent's Cunning is a very good choice, but it's not for everybody. Likewise, +1 to hit is very nice, but there can be better options. It's all about opportunity cost.

    Personally, I'm a big fan of being able to hit with my Wizard. My second and third feats were Staff Expertise and Superior Implement Training. (My first feat increased my initiative and fourth was Superior Reflexes.) I value hitting over everything else. I take the mindset that my powers don't do much if I miss with them. I don't get to apply my status effects if I miss, so I focus on making sure I can hit.

    Serpent's Cunning doesn't offer any direct control. What it does offer is an improvement to all your other control spells. Also: an extra skill that you can choose every day. That's half-way decent. If your party is traveling through a forest, giving yourself training in Nature is sweet. If you have no party face, Diplomacy can be wonderful. The sheer fact that you can change it up every day makes that decent. Also, a power bonus to Int-skills is decent, too. But it's the +1 to hit that really makes this power shine. Personally, I would take it with my Wizard over any other level 6 utility if I could, but as I said before: I value hitting. It's definitely a choice that everyone should consider, though it may not be the best choice. I'd also take a hard look at Illusory Wall, as you mentioned, especially since I feel that the level 10 Psionic utilities are a bit lackluster.
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Correct. It's not a must-have either, it's actually pretty boring and you'd get more mileage out of a power like Illusory Wall.

    Also, Surrealistik's advice focuses way too much on feats that give small numerical bonuses. You're not a defender, so there are much better feats than getting +2 to one defense. Instead, I'd recommend to start with a multiclass feat, Skill Power, and Improved Initiative, because that gives you a much greater benefit to actual control.

    It's kind of funny how all 3E optimizers realize that Weapon Focus (+1 to hit for the price of one feat) is a pretty bad deal because statistically it doesn't do much, whereas in 4E which uses the exact same d20-vs-target-number system, people call any +1 bonus gamebreakingly good. No, boosting something you can already do by 5 or 10 percent is absolutely not gamebreaking in any game.
    While I will agree that Illusory Wall is great, and competitive with Serpent's Cunning, I will also echo tcrudisi's statement on the value of stacking to-hits. Additionally, there is the fact that the L6 Utilities of the Psion aren't that great, whereas it has an awesome L10 Utility (Intellect Leech, not to mention it synergizes with Serpent's Cunning); replacing your L6 doesn't cost you much, replacing your L10 does. Furthermore, while Illusory Wall features a powerful one time benefit, Serpent's Cunning grants you substantial bonuses the entire day, again in excess of the value of most L16 PP features considered good or competitive. In balance, I would certainly have to side with Serpent's Cunning. Lastly, I reject as outright absurd the notion that Wall of Fog is preferable to Serpent's Cunning; if it was an Encounter, sure, as a Daily? Certainly not. That said, Secrets of Belial and either of these powers are indeed a 'must-have', and certainly a priority come Paragon.

    Secondly, I think you underestimate the power of defenses on a squishy controller that will draw some of the most aggro of any character in the party in encounters with intelligent enemies (assuming they're also run by an intelligent DM). To recommend important or general purpose defense boosters like Unarmoured Defense or Improved Defenses, or something ridiculously synergistic and strong like Superior Will is not at all to place a disproportionate value on them, especially when they're deemed relatively low priorities. As a side benefit, defenses also improve your Shaped Consciousness and summons.

    I will agree however that Skill Power is a strong feat that I'm missing from the list; Strategist's Epiphany (and later Insightful Riposte) is awesome, and something you definitely want in addition to Intellect Fortress (Serpent's Cunning also synergizes with the former). Multiclass feats are on the list, but I suppose I should expand on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi
    I'd also take a hard look at Illusory Wall, as you mentioned, especially since I feel that the level 10 Psionic utilities are a bit lackluster.
    Lol what? Did you even read Intellect Leech? Talk about effective invulnerability in an encounter once per day.

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Lol what? Did you even read Intellect Leech? Talk about effective invulnerability in an encounter once per day.
    I read it; I'm just not very big on it. My party tends to focus-fire very well. I'd get those temp hps twice, at most, before the creature died. Or it's a solo fight and I'm smart enough to stand where I'm not getting hit. I can see how that would be useful for a typical party, but in my party, that feat would be close to worthless for me. (I'm speaking as a Controller which shouldn't be getting hit very much to begin with.)
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    I read it; I'm just not very big on it. My party tends to focus-fire very well. I'd get those temp hps twice, at most, before the creature died. Or it's a solo fight and I'm smart enough to stand where I'm not getting hit. I can see how that would be useful for a typical party, but in my party, that feat would be close to worthless for me. (I'm speaking as a Controller which shouldn't be getting hit very much to begin with.)
    The odds of you, in one fight per extended rest, finding a solo or at least a tough elite to use it on are about 100%. Though I agree a Controller shouldn't be getting hit too much on average, you are also a priority target of intelligent enemies, up there with the Leader (or even beyond depending on how meddlesome you are). That said, when it comes to the 'boss fight' of the work day, if you aren't being threatened then the DM simply isn't challenging you appropriately, either because he isn't designing encounters well, or because he can't as that would mean the rest of your unoptimized party dying. Either way, that's a condition specific to your campaign.

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Thank you everyone. There are a lot of great ideas here.
    Amaranth

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    The odds of you, in one fight per extended rest, finding a solo or at least a tough elite to use it on are about 100%. Though I agree a Controller shouldn't be getting hit too much on average, you are also a priority target of intelligent enemies, up there with the Leader (or even beyond depending on how meddlesome you are). That said, when it comes to the 'boss fight' of the work day, if you aren't being threatened then the DM simply isn't challenging you appropriately, either because he isn't designing encounters well, or because he can't as that would mean the rest of your unoptimized party dying. Either way, that's a condition specific to your campaign.
    It's actually not that at all. Some combination of "you can't move", "you are dazed", "you are slowed", "you are unconscious", "you are prone", and "you are marked and surrounded by melee types who are eager for you to give them an OA." Then, if the monster CAN get to me, I laugh. I can take a few hits and not worry about retribution on my turn since I'm staff expertise. Or I shift 6 squares away and then attack again. But by the end of round 2, the elite will be dead anyway. It's not that the DM doesn't want to threaten me, it's that I have an aggressive playstyle anyway. If I'm not taking at least a couple of hits per combat, then I'm not doing my role of spreading the damage around my party to keep everyone alive. If the monster is that threatening, I make sure that he can't reach me under any circumstances. It's not hard to do.
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    It's actually not that at all. Some combination of "you can't move", "you are dazed", "you are slowed", "you are unconscious", "you are prone", and "you are marked and surrounded by melee types who are eager for you to give them an OA." Then, if the monster CAN get to me, I laugh. I can take a few hits and not worry about retribution on my turn since I'm staff expertise. Or I shift 6 squares away and then attack again. But by the end of round 2, the elite will be dead anyway. It's not that the DM doesn't want to threaten me, it's that I have an aggressive playstyle anyway. If I'm not taking at least a couple of hits per combat, then I'm not doing my role of spreading the damage around my party to keep everyone alive. If the monster is that threatening, I make sure that he can't reach me under any circumstances. It's not hard to do.
    It sounds like it is actually. Where are the tactics, monster powers, defenses and/or environmental hazards/traps that waylay your plans? Any DM can easily challenge any party, yours included, by taking stock of how you win your fights, and then specifically designing his encounters to defeat your strategies. If you are having such an easy time that you cannot see value in Intellect Leech because you have never been legitimately threatened with negative hit points, or even relatively tough monsters die way too quickly for it to see mileage, you certainly are not facing adequate challenges.

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    It sounds like it is actually. Where are the tactics, monster powers, defenses and/or environmental hazards/traps that waylay your plans? Any DM can easily challenge any party, yours included, by taking stock of how you win your fights, and then specifically designing his encounters to defeat your strategies. If you are having such an easy time that you cannot see value in Intellect Leech because you have never been legitimately threatened with negative hit points, or even relatively tough monsters die way too quickly for it to see mileage, you certainly are not facing adequate challenges.
    I play LFR. The highest I ever see is monsters that are around level +5.

    I also run with my fiancée who plays a Druid. Between the two of us we are guaranteed to have some way of locking down the battlefield. No, we don't face adequate challenges.
    Last edited by tcrudisi; 2011-04-05 at 11:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    I play LFR. The highest I ever see is monsters that are around level +5.
    Well there you go: stock monsters + constraints on your opposition = virtual immortality outside of terrible luck. If you have a DM that can and will scale encounter difficulty with your party, Intellect Leech is a great choice that keeps you alive through the toughest fights.

    Also can we stop mentioning the whole fiancée / druid team bit already? I almost can't read a thread on these subforums without seeing it come up at least once.

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Well there you go: stock monsters + constraints on your opposition = virtual immortality outside of terrible luck. If you have a DM that can and will scale encounter difficulty with your party, Intellect Leech is a great choice that keeps you alive through the toughest fights.

    Also can we stop mentioning the whole fiancée / druid team bit already? Yes, I get it, you're an unstoppable duo come to sunder the heavens and strike fear into the hearts of LFR DMs. Jesus, I almost can't read a thread on these subforums without seeing it come up at least once.
    The constraints on my opposition is also necessary in a home game. I've played home games (before I moved to my current city), and I know the power of a well-played character. A ranged controller (invoker or wizard) who doesn't want to get hit will not get hit. I've seen the ranged controller go several sessions in a row without getting hit. Heck, even in the game where I DM, I went several sessions trying to get to the controller and couldn't do it. When a team wants to protect a member, the cost of getting to that member becomes prohibitively high. Either the monster just flat-out can't do it, the players have used the terrain against him, or the controller has made himself an unrealistic target (too far away, jumps into the feywild, defenses higher than the defender, etc).

    You mentioned the DM trying to come up with a strategy to stop me. That's fine; he/she could probably do that, but they will still fall victim to the rest of my party. That's my point.
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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    The constraints on my opposition is also necessary in a home game. I've played home games (before I moved to my current city), and I know the power of a well-played character. A ranged controller (invoker or wizard) who doesn't want to get hit will not get hit. I've seen the ranged controller go several sessions in a row without getting hit. Heck, even in the game where I DM, I went several sessions trying to get to the controller and couldn't do it. When a team wants to protect a member, the cost of getting to that member becomes prohibitively high. Either the monster just flat-out can't do it, the players have used the terrain against him, or the controller has made himself an unrealistic target (too far away, jumps into the feywild, defenses higher than the defender, etc).

    You mentioned the DM trying to come up with a strategy to stop me. That's fine; he/she could probably do that, but they will still fall victim to the rest of my party. That's my point.
    No, I actually mentioned the DM coming up with an encounter that challenges the party, and legitimately menaces you.

    Furthermore, environmental effects, particularly hard control environmental effects that feature forced movement and/or mobility/action imposition/denial that work with and supplement synergistic monsters are a great way to make key targets vulnerable, as are accurate ranged, focus firing combatants, doubly so if they have area spells and hard control. The bottom line is that monsters of an adequate level that are synergistic with each other and their environments, and are intelligently played can menace virtually any character in any party, especially if the encounter is specifically designed to play to party weaknesses or deny/hamper established party strategies.

    Controllers, even ones that don't want to be targeted, are by no means 'impossible' to take down or lethally menace in a fair way. Even if the entire party over-commits and throws itself entirely at a single character's defense, if the encounter is designed well that'll usually result in a pyrrhic victory, because now some other key party member (say the Leader) is dead/dying, or they've wasted a disproportionate amount of resources.

    I will agree that in your average combat, with optimized play and an optimized party, Controllers have little to fear. However, when it comes to a savvy DM using optimized creatures, environmental effects and tactics, and employing these elements together with deadly synergy that compounds the effectiveness of each individual element, survival is far from guaranteed.

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    Default Re: Please help with a psion build

    Reviewing the L10 Utilities, Mind Over Flesh also appears to be a great option, tapping into Immediate Actions you don't normally use, and it allows you to even ward off effects that don't normally end on a save. Unfortunately, its appeal diminishes substantially if you take Superior Will and pair it with Dispater's Iron Discipline, which you really should. Otherwise it is probably the best option of the level.

    Stall Tactics is a decent option that acts as a weaker Strategist's Epiphany.

    Sky Hook and Force Barricade aren't bad. The latter's party unfriendly effects upon destruction are definitely annoying though, and 50 HP against which enemies autohit doesn't count for much in early paragon. Still, chances are it will waste at least 2-3 enemy turns at the cost of one of your own.

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