deck of many things

[person29]

if you are like me and my groups then you too love the deck of many things

what my question is, what do you think the "ideal" level range for a party encountering the deck would be...i think of "ideal" as any bad things/combats resulting from it being difficult but not impossible, and any good things not being game breaking

thanks

[Shpadoinkle]

As I understand it, most groups consider that particular artifact a campaign ender.

In my experience, the DM giving the party a DoMT is an unofficial way of saying "Okay guys, campaign's over, let's just screw around with stuff until everybody's dead or gods."

[Sinfonian]

Never.Ten character minimum.

[Thurbane]

Ideal level range is variable with DoMT - I would recommend it be done on the last session of the campaign, whatever level that is.

DoMT is a great concept, and can be fun, but it has a proven track record as a campaign killer. It tends to either gimp characters to the point of being unplayable (or outright destroying them with little hope of Resurrection), or give them outrageously overpowered abilities or items.

I think there is a Lesser Deck of Many Things out there (maybe homebrew, or an online article at WotC) with toned down effects - I'd recommend this over the standard DoMT.

[Safety Sword]

It's A Trap!

[Amnestic]

What everyone above me has said. The Deck of Many Things is an awesome idea. Gambling with your characters? Aces! You can win or lose everything. That's also the problem. If it's not the end of your campaign, chances are your party's going to be decimated by the end of it. Some people will get good draws and probably raise in level dramatically, others will likely end up dead or crippled and incapable of fighting properly without DM intervention.

[Viskocity]

I'm currently in a campaign which has survived the DoMT and is still ongoing. Still, the results were not pretty. All but one of us drew, and we had maybe 40-50% character death or disfigurement (lots of players, hard to remember exactly), and a few cases of brokenly powerful abilities.

The only reason this didn't end worse was because we traded the deck away to some NPCs before the newly rolled characters could draw their cards from the deck. All in all, it was a fun experience but not one likely to be repeated. (Also, the DM used some cool tarot cards as a prop, which made drawing even more irresistible).

[Alleran]

Never.Ten character minimum.

I don't get it. The Wish spell isn't that powerful - as far as I'm aware, it just does the same thing that a regular Wish would do.

Also, one of my current characters survived using a Deck of Many Things. Got lucky and drew the "you get your own keep and a +6 bonus to Diplomacy" card.

[sonofzeal]

The easiest way to break DoMT - Suggestion. "Hey, you should totally draw twelve cards!" If Suggestion is insufficient, try Diplomancy or Dominate Person.

You can almost guarantee that the person drawing twelve cards is pretty much completely screwed, but you can also expect a hefty pile of loot left there afterwards. And possibly a castle.

[Yora]

I don't get it. The Wish spell isn't that powerful

The wish spell isn't. The Deck of Many Things is!
And it's not that it's too powerful, but that it just randomly screws everything up. And there aren't that many cards. The chance for a particular event to happen are quite high.

[Alleran]

The wish spell isn't. The Deck of Many Things is!
And it's not that it's too powerful, but that it just randomly screws everything up. And there aren't that many cards. The chance for a particular event to happen are quite high.

No, I don't get the comic. He says he draws the Wish card. Okay, he has 1d4 wishes.

Except the Wish spell can't remove Tiamat from existence. It isn't that powerful. Yes, the Deck of Many Things can tear a campaign apart, but the Wish card is small potatoes compared with some of what the DoMT can do (e.g. Talons, Vizier, Void, Fates... especially Void), because Wish has a built-in "DM can screw with you" clause.

[Forbiddenwar]

No, I don't get the comic. He says he draws the Wish card. Okay, he has 1d4 wishes.

Except the Wish spell can't remove Tiamat from existence. It isn't that powerful.

Hyperbole (, from ancient Greek 'exaggeration') is a rhetorical device in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

On topic: does anyone know of the minor deck of many things mentioned. That would be nice to find.

[Teln]

...Here, maybe?

[Tyndmyr]

I'm currently in a campaign which has survived the DoMT and is still ongoing. Still, the results were not pretty. All but one of us drew, and we had maybe 40-50% character death or disfigurement (lots of players, hard to remember exactly), and a few cases of brokenly powerful abilities.

The only reason this didn't end worse was because we traded the deck away to some NPCs before the newly rolled characters could draw their cards from the deck. All in all, it was a fun experience but not one likely to be repeated. (Also, the DM used some cool tarot cards as a prop, which made drawing even more irresistible).

Yeah, I found me a Cuthulu themed Tarot deck. I use it for the DoMT and certain other RPGs that utilize a Tarot deck. None can resist it.

But yeah, it's generally horrific. I'll make an exception for at level one. If the characters are replaceable, it's not so bad.

[person29]

Yes it may be a campaign killer etc...but if it were to be used, what do you think would be a balanced level to do it, where the wraith, imprisonment etc are challenging to overcome, but not impossible...and the rewards (magic item etc) are not game breaking

[Shpadoinkle]

The appropriate level to use it is the level at which you want your campaign to end.

[Hecuba]

The appropriate level to use it is the level at which you want your campaign to end.

That's only really fair if you would also end the campaign for, say, a 60% party kill. Personally, I find that the deck is an interesting way to shake up the story by randomly changing the party makeup.

[Garagos]

Yes it may be a campaign killer etc...but if it were to be used, what do you think would be a balanced level to do it, where the wraith, imprisonment etc are challenging to overcome, but not impossible...and the rewards (magic item etc) are not game breaking

I haven't looked at the Deck in awhile but I'd guess maybe 13th to 17th level since no one else seems to be answering the question the way you want.

[Tyndmyr]

Yes it may be a campaign killer etc...but if it were to be used, what do you think would be a balanced level to do it, where the wraith, imprisonment etc are challenging to overcome, but not impossible...and the rewards (magic item etc) are not game breaking

See, this just doesn't happen.

Consider the following possibilities:
1. Change alignment instantly. This can pretty much screw a character concept over pretty hard. Taken alone, as the only thing that happens to a party, it can be overcome, but it's major. It's also not level dependent.

2. One of your friends turns against you. Causes disruption. In general, for this to matter, it ends up being a friend of about your level, either in or out of the party. End conclusion: Equally bad regardless of level.

3. Permanently lose 1d4+1 int. Pretty much always terrible, if int matters to you. You may be able to hobble along, but it's never irrelevant. In worst cases, it kills a char concept based on int being a secondary stat.

4. Immediately lose all wealth and real property. Yeah. Always sucks. Always.

5. All magic items you possess disappear permanently. See 4.

6. Body functions, but soul is trapped elsewhere. Bad. Always bad. Sure, with 9th level spells, you can determine WHERE it's trapped, but it still results in a PC not playing while you rescue them.

In short, even at the highest of levels, it still wrecks campaigns.

[cfalcon]

About level 14, when the PCs have enough going on that they'll risk it all... maybe.

Do remember, it can blow up everything. You can lose characters permanently from your game, or you can end up with them spawning an array of small keeps and stacking up wishes.

Deck of Many Things is the best item in the game, IMO ;)

[cfalcon]

Two caveats:

1- It can change things dramatically. Characters may have to reroll, and you may have to adjust your campaign world suddenly.
2- You should NOT give it to very low level characters. They have nothing to lose, and much to gain- for them, drawing from the deck is not a choice, it's mandatory- much like very poor or oppressed people will take any chance to better themselves, up to and including gambling their own organs, a rich person would not be likely to gamble their entire worth with a 50/50 shot of doubling it- or, for that matter, not even 75/25 in their favor, because the rewards don't outweigh the penalties.

[person29]

See, this just doesn't happen.

Consider the following possibilities:
1. Change alignment instantly. This can pretty much screw a character concept over pretty hard. Taken alone, as the only thing that happens to a party, it can be overcome, but it's major. It's also not level dependent.

2. One of your friends turns against you. Causes disruption. In general, for this to matter, it ends up being a friend of about your level, either in or out of the party. End conclusion: Equally bad regardless of level.

3. Permanently lose 1d4+1 int. Pretty much always terrible, if int matters to you. You may be able to hobble along, but it's never irrelevant. In worst cases, it kills a char concept based on int being a secondary stat.

4. Immediately lose all wealth and real property. Yeah. Always sucks. Always.

5. All magic items you possess disappear permanently. See 4.

6. Body functions, but soul is trapped elsewhere. Bad. Always bad. Sure, with 9th level spells, you can determine WHERE it's trapped, but it still results in a PC not playing while you rescue them.

In short, even at the highest of levels, it still wrecks campaigns.

1 - sucks more for divine casters...but could be mostly irrelevant for some

2 - does it say a PC turns against you? could be an npc...

3 - yeah sucks especially for int classes...fighter/barb prob doesnt care

4 - unless you are VoP

5 - see 4

6 - perfect if you have a player leaving for awhile (especially if you rig the deck)

You bolded the part about benefits being game breaking but never talked about that...?

[Amnestic]

1 - sucks more for divine casters...but could be mostly irrelevant for some

Mechanically it sucks for divine casters, yes, but your character shifting from Neutral Good to Neutral Evil is a pretty huge character switch and changes his character - something which (if you're drawing at level 14+) has been crafted over what is likely a fair bit of time and who you've probably grown quite attached to. It sucks for anyone who cares about their character's personality.

[TurtleKing]

I know of one guy's character that survived drawing 23 cards!!!!!!!

Everyone is right about it being a campaign ender.

[Tyndmyr]

You bolded the part about benefits being game breaking but never talked about that...?

I bolded the part that talks about game breaking. The deck breaks the game, not merely the benefits. The negatives are actually far more likely to end a campaign.

Consider the benefits:
1. Defeat next monster to gain a level. -Eh, results in an almost one level disparity. XP is a river. Feh.
2. Avoid any situation you choose, once. -Very cool, but the one shot nature of it means it isn't a source of permanent power differential.
3. Gain 25 pieces of jewelry or 50 gems. -At low level, a substantial WBL boost that does provide a power differential, and not a small one. At medium-high levels, it's trivial. So, it fixes itself.
4. Gain 10k xp or 2 more draws. -Everyone picks the xp. At low levels, results in an almost two level disparity(since you can't level more than once at once). Again, very cool, but the XP is a River effect mitigates the long term effects. At higher levels, it's not as big.
5. Gain a major magic weapon. -Perhaps the single biggest thing at low levels. This one actually does matter. Mostly for lower tier chars, tho.
6. Gain a 4th level fighter. -It's non-scaling leadership. Feh. Becomes irrelevant in a bit.
7. 1d4 wishes. -Ok, potent. But it's always potent.
8. +2 inherent bonus. -Not that important. A +2 bonus can be had in many ways, and is very rarely overpowering.
9. Medium wonderous item & 50k xp. -Perhaps the best. Provides you with lots of power at any level.
10. +6 bonus on diplomacy and small keep. -Least disruptive bonus yet, really. Having a keep doesn't generally affect party balance.
11. Know the answer to your next dilemma. -Not unbalancing at all. It's a way for a GM to provide hints. Meh.

No, the ones like suddenly losing everything are more problematic.

[Amnestic]

(since you can't level more than once at once).

I'm not so sure. The PHB states^(Pg.58) that you can't level more than once per "adventure" (but never defines what an adventure is as far as I can tell), the DMG^(Pg.36) just talks about when you might like to award experience points with regards to sessions/encounters and while it once again references the term "adventure" it also does not define it in any sort of length. The choice of 50k experience from the DoMT seems odd when looking at the pre-epic EXP table. If we do assume that the boon of EXP offered could not be used to level more than once and instead puts you one exp short of your next level, why then does it offer 50k and not 40k?

153,000 is starting at 18th, and 190,000 is starting at 20th. 40k is more than enough to reach it, but it offers 50k.

The Deck seems, in this manner, to go against the rules with its offerings, and I can only assume it is yet another case of WotC making rules they didn't entirely think through, especially since, to some people, "adventure"=the campaign, which feasibly stretches over a dozen or more levels.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm not so sure. The PHB states^(Pg.58) that you can't level more than once per "adventure" (but never defines what an adventure is as far as I can tell),

While that's true, I don't think that anyone can reasonably argue that drawing a single card constitutes multiple adventures.

My guess is that 50k was chosen on the base of it being a nice, large, round number. Sadly, I don't think more thought than that went into it.

[Amnestic]

While that's true, I don't think that anyone can reasonably argue that drawing a single card constitutes multiple adventures.

Depends on the card

I do away with the rule personally, I would not be surprised if the majority of others do the same.

You're probably right that 50k was just chosen as a round number though. Nice job WotC.

[adecoy95]

the trick with the deck is to draw alot of cards, like 7 or so. that way you will likely be able to come out on top, or at least even (if you wish you never drew from the deck at all)

[Forbiddenwar]

After some google fu, I've discovered the official Lesser Deck of Many Things.
It's called the Totem Deck and appeared in Dragon issue #271.
Thanks to the power of the public library I will soon have a copy of the issue emailed to me.