Seeking weapon quality

[Shadowbite]

The rogue in the party just got +4 light crossbow with the Seeking property

Seeking

Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability. The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. (The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby.)

Strong divination; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, true seeing; Price +1 bonus.

And the DM has interpreted it to mean that from now on, the rogue auto hits enemies and just rolls for crit chance. I'm don't believe that's what the ability actually does. Your thoughts?

[person29]

if your DM is correct thats the best weapon quality ever...only 8000 and change gp for an auto hit longbow!

no the way I read it is it negates miss chances...such as from darkness, invisibility, blur, as long as they aim in the correct square

so they have to know what square the enemy is in

then roll to hit and actually hit the AC of the enemy...but no longer need to roll x% miss chance

[arguskos]

And the DM has interpreted it to mean that from now on, the rogue auto hits enemies and just rolls for crit chance. I'm don't believe that's what the ability actually does. Your thoughts?

Your DM is wrong. All it does is negate miss chances. You still have to roll to hit, if you didn't have to roll to hit, it'd SAY that.

[Douglas]

Seeking negates "miss chance". In D&D, that is a specific term that does not mean "chance to miss the target". It means "in addition to the attack roll, you also have to beat a fixed percentile roll in order to hit". Seeking removes the additional percentile roll, but the normal attack roll remains.

[Moriato]

And the DM has interpreted it to mean that from now on, the rogue auto hits enemies and just rolls for crit chance. I'm don't believe that's what the ability actually does. Your thoughts?

No, not at all. "Miss chance" has a very specific meaning, it's granted by thing like concealment and invisiblity, and it's allways a % roll. An enemy's armor class is not a miss chance, and seeking has no effect on it.

If it doesn't specifically say "miss chance" then it isn't. Incorporeal creautres for example have "a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source" which seeking would not work on.

[Cog]

As those above have said. However, an autohit bow might actually be a nerf for a rogue - without an attack roll, sneak attack wouldn't trigger.

[person29]

As those above have said. However, an autohit bow might actually be a nerf for a rogue - without an attack roll, sneak attack wouldn't trigger.

why not? if they still hit and need to roll to crit...they must be hitting, if it is a sneak attack eligible hit then why not?

[Cog]

why not? if they still hit and need to roll to crit...they must be hitting, if it is a sneak attack eligible hit then why not?

If the attack does not check for AC, the target is not denied Dexterity to AC for the attack. Sneak attack doesn't apply to things like Magic Missile for the same reason.

[Curmudgeon]

As those above have said. However, an autohit bow might actually be a nerf for a rogue - without an attack roll, sneak attack wouldn't trigger.

That requirement (an attack roll) is specific to sneak attacking with weaponlike spells. You've still got to meet the normal enabling conditions (flanking, or target denied DEX bonus to AC) for sneak attack in any case.

[Cog]

That requirement (an attack roll) is specific to sneak attacking with weaponlike spells. You've still got to meet the normal enabling conditions (flanking, or target denied DEX bonus to AC) for sneak attack in any case.

Just to be clear this, would a dragon with rogue levels then potentially be able to sneak attack with a breath weapon?

[ericgrau]

No because it's an area attack that doesn't even use an attack roll. He can sneak attack with claws and bite though.

[Curmudgeon]

No because it's an area attack that doesn't even use an attack roll. He can sneak attack with claws and bite though.

To clarify, an attack roll isn't required except for weaponlike spells. But an attack definitely is. A breath weapon affects an area and deals damage, but doesn't constitute an attack.

[Cog]

"A creature attacking with a breath weapon..."

"Special Attacks: Breath weapon"

If a breath weapon is not an attack, why is it called an attack?

[person29]

Cog...can you sneak attack with a fireball?

[Sarco_Phage]

Cog...can you sneak attack with a fireball?

You can't, but it would be a lot funnier if you could. Imagine sneak attacking someone with a fireball to the small of the back.

[person29]

You can't, but it would be a lot funnier if you could. Imagine sneak attacking someone with a fireball to the small of the back.

haha agreed

but thats the point, since there is no attack roll can't be a sneak attack

with the proposed auto-hit bow there is an attack roll just the initial one isn't made, you make one just to see if you crit

so even if you don't crit you hit...so if within 30' and target is denied dex bonus/sneak attack requirements are made then sneak attack away!

[Cog]

Cog...can you sneak attack with a fireball?

No, explicitly not. Fireball is a spell, and spells need attack rolls. Likewise, I earlier pointed out that Magic Missile doesn't qualify for sneak attack.

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing for this. I'm merely following through on the argument presented here:

That requirement (an attack roll) is specific to sneak attacking with weaponlike spells. You've still got to meet the normal enabling conditions (flanking, or target denied DEX bonus to AC) for sneak attack in any case.

[Shadowbite]

Isn't there a prestige class that lets you apply sneak attack to rays and another ability that lets you turn spells into ray spells?

[Cog]

Isn't there a prestige class that lets you apply sneak attack to rays and another ability that lets you turn spells into ray spells?

Spellwarp Sniper is what you're thinking of, but rays (requiring an attack roll) qualify for sneak attack already.

[Keld Denar]

You don't need a PrC to get SA on rays. Most rays are already weaponlike. Any spell that has an attack roll (all rays do) and deals damage or inflicts negative levels (most rays do, few exceptions) qualifies. Consult Complete Arcane (Weaponlike Spells) for more details.

Spellwarped Sniper in Complete Scoundrel is the class that turns AoEs into rays. Its...decent in most cases, rather abusive in special cases such as with spells like Frost Breath or Wings of Flurry.

[Curmudgeon]

"A creature attacking with a breath weapon..."

"Special Attacks: Breath weapon"

I was referring only to the issue of qualifying for sneak attack. I thought that went without saying, so I didn't. My error.

[Cog]

I was referring only to the issue of qualifying for sneak attack. I thought that went without saying, so I didn't. My error.

the rogue auto hits enemies and just rolls for crit chance.

Without an actual attack roll, I don't see how this is any more an attack than breathing fire or firing Magic Missiles. It's not just a massive increase to the attack roll - there's no opportunity for the rogue in question to roll a one and miss outright.

Now, if the original statement is an oversimplification and the rogue actually has to aim, then fine. If that's the case, though, I'd never have made my initial comment.

[Moriato]

Without an actual attack roll, I don't see how this is any more an attack than breathing fire or firing Magic Missiles. It's not just a massive increase to the attack roll - there's no opportunity for the rogue in question to roll a one and miss outright.

Now, if the original statement is an oversimplification and the rogue actually has to aim, then fine. If that's the case, though, I'd never have made my initial comment.

I can't find anywhere that it says that sneak attack requires an attack roll. In fact, a Coup De Grace doesn't require an attack roll, but it specifically says that rogues do get sneak attack damage.

Logically I see where you're coming from. If the arrow or bolt or whatever is aiming itself, then there's really no way to make it strike a "vital area"

The problem here is that auto-hit abilities.. just don't really exist. So there's no precedent, except for coup de grace which says they do get SA.

[Cog]

I can't find anywhere that it says that sneak attack requires an attack roll. In fact, a Coup De Grace doesn't require an attack roll, but it specifically says that rogues do get sneak attack damage.

The problem is, does it say that with the intent of setting a precedent, or does it say that because it's an exception?

Logically I see where you're coming from. If the arrow or bolt or whatever is aiming itself, then there's really no way to make it strike a "vital area"

Exactly my thoughts, yeah.