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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    I was kinda afraid the bonuses to the key skills are too big, but then I realized competence bonuses are what magic items give. I think this is a good idea, but every time I try to elaborate this becomes an essay.

    Mounted Combat not taking an action... since when did it ever? It just had a "once per round" limiter. Oh. You re-wrote it to be an immediate action, so waiving the action means built in infinite-use. I see wut u did ther.

    The "double mount speed" ability at level 9 for Cavalry Fighters can get pretty ridiculous with flying mounts. I wouldn't mind seeing the move speed bonus not apply to flyers, as there should be SOME advantage to remaining grounded. The one time I was in a campaign with a cavalier on a flying mount, we never even put him on the battle map. He indicated to the DM what side of the map he was hanging out on, and on his turn he'd choose an opponent anywhere on the map, make his attack roll, choose another side of the map to disappear to. I don't see a reason to make that sort of behavior even easier. When speeds triple, that's when I'd like to see flyers' doubled.

    Mounted Scout is OK, but I feel like it needs another minor bonus. I would consider something like "your mount gains +2 dodge bonus to AC and +2 to Reflex Saves" to go along with the quick-moving scout. This is mostly a feel-good bonus since your mount is most likely going to be protected so heavily by Mounted Combat. Alternatively, a built-in Fleet of Foot for your mount (+5 movement speed) or some such.

    I intend to get to the other Fighter styles when I can...

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphiel View Post
    Also I think Kellus is awesome. x3
    Looking at his truenamer fix (which is just the tip of the iceberg), isn't that a given?

    Anyway, Jiriku, you've gone and done it AGAIN. This is as good as the Fighter Incarnate fix. Although, I am a bit hesitant about the commanding fighter, but that's just because of one of the excellent marshall fixes that I've seen. Also, the Disciplined fighter is diptastic for the simple reason that they can regain their combat focus infinitely. Why is this useful, aside from just the Combat form feats? Two words; Combat Psychic. The ability to regain your Psionic focus every time you damage someone is the ultimate ability for the Psychic warrior, as well as any manifester who can get a little up close, like wilders.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    This is some great feedback! Gideon, could you link me the marshal fix you were thinking of?

    Nerfed cavalry fighting style speed boosts, as suggested. Nerfed Combat Psychic feat - this was intended to make Combat Form feats worthwhile to a psionic character, not create a no-brainer dip-level. Buffed Mounted Scout.

    Also, completed the last of the supplementary posts detailing the individual fighting styles. Now I just have to go back and invent about 40 new feats to flesh out the fighting styles....

    On that note, added 12 new cavalry fighter feats and one new watchful fighter feat. More options to follow for all fighting styles as my muse strikes. I'm also definitely going to be linking to some external threads containing improvements to the core fighter bonus feats.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-04-19 at 01:38 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Those are some great new options for the cavalry fighter. I'm not entirely certain how the adjusted druid levels for wild cohorts would work out with the variant cohort adjusted effective druid levels (say that five times fast) but it's so much better than mounted combat has ever had before that I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

    What I especially like is the way you've tied some of the stuff in to previous mechanics, like your wing clip feats and the windburst charge. Very nice indeed. I need to look over it a little more, but I can guarantee that the next time I'm putting together a mounted character I'll be coming here instead of trying to add seven different prestige classes together to get something that's passable (seriously, it's absurd how hard it is to make an effective mounted character).

    Your other changes look pretty good as well. Nicely done!

    EDIT: For reference, the last time I tried to make a flying dogfighting mounted cavalier, I was considering either a Paladin of Freedom 5/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Beastmaster 1/Skylord 4/Cragtop Archer 3/Wild Plains Outrider 2/Dragonrider 1 or a Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Cleric 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Aglarondan Griffonrider 3/Skylord 2/Cragtop Archer 3.

    ... It's not pretty.
    Last edited by Kellus; 2011-04-19 at 01:27 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    The Weapon Master Fighter could have some kind of Performance- based feat that allows some Charisma bonuses in battle.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    as always Jiriku, you astound me. This is my new favorite fighter fix.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    More keyboard diarrhea incoming:

    Sudden Movement is At-Will Travel Devotion?

    Terrifying Howl has no duration specified on the Shaken effect.

    Why don't aura benefits stack with Aid Another?

    I don't see why Dual Auras would require 20 levels... I suppose because it not only gives 2 Combat Auras, but 2 Commanding Auras as well. I think I would rather see these benefits divided, perhaps in the form of Advancement. Something like requiring Commanding fighter 12 or so to get 2x Combat Auras, and then it also allows 2x Commanding auras at level 18. You could also squeeze the ability to activate them 2-at-a-time into an Advancement.

    Incidentally, including the ability to change Commanding Auras any time you change Combat Auras (and vice versa, of course) somewhere would be nice.

    Both Expert Aid and Supporting Strike eventually increase your Aid Another bonus to +5. Was this intentional to create multiple paths?

    I wish I could provide some inspiration for more Commander feats. For now, I'll suggest feats which allow you to cash in your normal Aid Another benefits for more exotic ones, but I don't know what that would be (for the most part, it'd probably end up redundant with the auras anyway).

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    More keyboard diarrhea incoming:
    Yay!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    Sudden Movement is At-Will Travel Devotion?
    Yes. It uses your swift action, but gives the benefit to your mount. I should also notate that the rider doesn't draw AoO during the movement either. On consideration, though, it's giving a big speed boost to a character who's already plenty fast, and it's rather powerful for the level. What if the mount is staggered as a result? This would let you do a couple of things:
    • Move without AoO, but for no net gain in distance traveled
    • Turn a corner before charging (a staggered mount can use a standard action to initiate a partial charge)

    This might make it a bit weak, but I could then buff it some by granting the mount the ability to ignore entangling effects during the movement. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    Terrifying Howl has no duration specified on the Shaken effect.
    Duration added - one round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    Why don't aura benefits stack with Aid Another?
    If the benefits stacked, a high-Charisma commanding fighter with the Platoon Leader feat could use synergistic auras in conjunction with Aid Another to move the entire party's attack roll or AC completely out of the RNG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    I don't see why Dual Auras would require 20 levels... I suppose because it not only gives 2 Combat Auras, but 2 Commanding Auras as well. I think I would rather see these benefits divided, perhaps in the form of Advancement. Something like requiring Commanding fighter 12 or so to get 2x Combat Auras, and then it also allows 2x Commanding auras at level 18. You could also squeeze the ability to activate them 2-at-a-time into an Advancement.

    Incidentally, including the ability to change Commanding Auras any time you change Combat Auras (and vice versa, of course) somewhere would be nice.
    I envisioned this as a capstone feat comparable to the warblade's Dual Stance, a crunchy reward like 9th level spells for casters. Stances are better than auras, though, so I can see how it would fit at a lower level. Dual Auras does grant the ability to change "one or two auras that you know", which can include a combat aura and a commanding aura. I could see moving this down a little though - it's not really granting new powers, just letting you mix up your existing ones better. Lemme think on how to rewrite this - and what kind of awesome capstone feat I can create in its place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    Both Expert Aid and Supporting Strike eventually increase your Aid Another bonus to +5. Was this intentional to create multiple paths?
    Yes. Expert Aid-->Platoon Leader is somewhat more powerful, but eats your actions, and is more useful for commanding fighters who tend to lead from the back. Supporting Strike-->Improved Supporting Strike packs less power, but comes free with a successful melee attack. It's intended for commanding fighters who prefer to lead from the front. A fighter could theoretically pursue both trees, but it probably wouldn't be the best use of his feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    I wish I could provide some inspiration for more Commander feats. For now, I'll suggest feats which allow you to cash in your normal Aid Another benefits for more exotic ones, but I don't know what that would be (for the most part, it'd probably end up redundant with the auras anyway).
    I like this idea! I think rather than providing bonuses (which the commanding fighter is swimming in already), they should enable new actions. What could fit? Just brainstorming here, I'm thinking...
    • Ally immediately stands from prone without AoO, or prone enemy must spend a full-round action to stand if it stands from prone next round
    • Flat-footed ally is no longer flat-footed. Advancement: Ally gains Uncanny Dodge for one round. Advancement: Ally also gains Improved Uncanny Dodge for one round.
    • Ally takes an immediate free 5-foot step, or enemy is prevented from taking a 5-foot step for one round.
    • Ally recovers from dazed or stunned condition. Foe might be dazed.
    • Ally recovers from shaken, frightened, or panicked condition. Foe might be shaken.
    • Ally gains own character level as temp hp for one round.
    • Charmed, confused, dominated, or feebleminded ally gains new saving throw.


    Ideas, anyone?
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    it's giving a big speed boost to a character who's already plenty fast
    This concerned me quite a bit, but I wanted to make sure I understood it correctly. I feel something like that needs some sort of limiter. One thought I had was "you can do this a number of times per encounter equal to your mount's con bonus" or some such.

    Instead of Staggered, how about Winded or Fatigued for a round? It kills charging (you could specify they gain the status at the end of your turn so you can charge in the round you use it but not the next), but retains a full round action. So no charge vs no full round actions.

    If the benefits stacked, a high-Charisma commanding fighter with the Platoon Leader feat could use synergistic auras in conjunction with Aid Another to move the entire party's attack roll or AC completely out of the RNG.
    Commanding auras only ever provide situational attack or AC, so they shouldn't be part of the problem and should, in my opinion, stack with Aid Another and Combat auras just fine. Combat Auras can go (as far as I can see) up to +6. I can see why you'd be leery about letting that stack with a +5 or so Aid Another with very little action investment.

    One thing I would consider is nerfing Platoon Leader to only Standard Action investment. Since it requires Expert Aid (and comes at a level where Expert Aid is Immediate/Swift), it would provide a reason to still use a Standard (or at least Move) action for it.

    With that sort of investment, stacking with auras is quite a bit less potent. And if someone goes the Supporting Strike route in addition to the Expert Aid tree, well, you already covered how that's a lot of feats.

    Dual Auras does grant the ability to change "one or two auras that you know",
    Yeah, I just meant as a lower level effect. I don't really know what to do about Dual Aura other than my suggestion above about making it advance. It's hard to make "I add a moderate number to TWO decent but limited stats!" an extremely interesting capstone... but I keep forgetting it's actually 4 instead of 2. But then, I feel like the Marshal class would struggle to be overpowered if they could project all auras known simultaneously.

    I like this idea! I think rather than providing bonuses (which the commanding fighter is swimming in already), they should enable new actions. What could fit?
    The "problem" with this is that it's effectively White Raven. I put that in quotes because that's what WotC finally realized: buffing through situational action is more active (and therefore fun) for the player, while also feeling much more tactical. So either try to find things that aren't White Raven-able, or embrace it and borrow from it. I would say "make sure they're more potent than maneuvers" but uhh... these guys will be popping this crap 3-7 times/round. That's nuts.

    Holy crap. You have a Fighter that can Aid Another an entire party like 9 times if they can crank their AB high enough for the round! (and have enough tricks for extra attacks)

    Anyway, I really like your suggested list, except maybe the temp HP one. Nvm, I like that one, too. Actually, I don't like the "remove effect" ones, though I'd be cool with stepping down more severe statuses and I'll always love the "grant a new save" types.

    Oh, immediate action aura would be fantastic (or did I miss it?). Probably part of the capstone feat. You'll never use a Reflex Save aura unless you can toss it up in response to a fireball.

    Also, I just realized you have the entirety of the aura tree wrapped up in automatic class features and 1 feat (2 with Dual Auaras). I can see how this makes sense as a no-brainer investment for commanding fighters (thus making it the focus of the capstone feat), but some more commanding aura support would make it an alternative to Aid Another focus. Don't ask me what support that would be! As I said, there's good reason to leave it as low-investment as possible.

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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    This is some great feedback! Gideon, could you link me the marshal fix you were thinking of?
    I don't know where it is, but it was T. G. Oskar's, so you caould find it in his extended sig.

    Also, the new Combat psychic says you can expend your combat focus as a move action to regain psychic focus, but psionic meditation already lets you do exactly that.
    Last edited by Gideon Falcon; 2011-04-21 at 10:44 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    I like this fighter fix, and I'm gonna use it in my campaign.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    OK, you've both identified some good balance tweaks and pointed out some significant exploits arising from interactions of these feats that I hadn't seen.

    • Sudden Movement: Nerfed to leave the mount winded.
    • Dual Auras: Requirements reduced and feat is now staged.
    • Improved Aura: Buffed slightly.
    • Expert Aid: Nerfed advancement doesn't provide an immediate activation option.
    • Platoon Leader: Nerfed to require a standard action.
    • Supporting Strike, Improved: Nerfed to be usable only with attacks you make on your turn.


    I added eight new feats for commanding fighters focusing on improvements to auras and new uses for Aid Another.

    • Battlefield Commander, Domineering Presence, Lead From the Front: Tactical feats providing multiple alternative uses for Aid Another.
    • Extra Aura: I bet you can't guess.
    • Lingering Aura: Prolly can't guess this one either.
    • Now is the Time!: Nova your auras
    • Supreme Commander: Capstone! All auras active all the time
    • Timely Orders: Activate an aura or use Aid Another as an immediate action


    I am still concerned about the stacking of auras and Aid Another. I am so concerned, in fact, that I am considering changing the bonus type on the auras from circumstance to morale so that they will not stack with bardic music or most cleric buffs. I have visions of a party that includes a cleric, a bard, and a commanding fighter, all synergizing and stacking their buffs to get +10 to +20 on all their rolls and essentially render monster's attack rolls, AC, and ability save DC's meaningless. Thoughts?

    Combat Psychic is basically intended to allow psywars and psychic gishes to gain combat focus more than once per combat by repeatedly burning their psionic focus. But post-nerf Expend ability is pretty lame now. What if it was only a swift action, but you couldn't expend your combat focus and psionic focus in the same turn? I'm trying to avoid creating a dip progression of disciplined fighter 1/psiwar (x-1) that's automatically better than psiwar x.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-04-22 at 10:07 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    I am still concerned about the stacking of auras and Aid Another. I am so concerned, in fact, that I am considering changing the bonus type on the auras from circumstance to morale so that they will not stack with bardic music or most cleric buffs. I have visions of a party that includes a cleric, a bard, and a commanding fighter, all synergizing and stacking their buffs to get +10 to +20 on all their rolls and essentially render monster's attack rolls, AC, and ability save DC's meaningless. Thoughts?
    Just so we're clear, we're talking about Combat auras and not Commanding auras here, right? I feel like the Commanding auras (and the minor auras they're based on) are mostly situational enough that it's OK. The only +AC commanding aura is against AoOs only - which isn't bad at all - and there aren't any +attack auras. So assuming it's the combat auras, I'm ok with that not stacking with Aid Others. I can see how that makes the +attack and +AC auras less appealing to most Commanding Fighters while still being useful to other Fighter types.

    I'm trying to avoid creating a dip progression of disciplined fighter 1/psiwar (x-1) that's automatically better than psiwar x.
    Switch Disciplined Fighter around so the instant-refresh doesn't come at level 1? I haven't read Disciplined yet, and apparently I need to re-read commander since all new options have appeared.

    ----

    K, read the new stuff on commanding auras

    Improved Combat Aura is now a feat tax -- as far as I can tell, it takes you from a +5 bonus to all allies to a +11 at level 20.

    Domineering Presence>Walk it off, soldier has a type (allow an allow)

    On Now is the Time! Are you unable to activate any auras for the rest of the encounter? Or just the ones that were active when the ability was used? Personally, I like the latter, though maybe that'd be better if it were a doubling instead of a tripling. I dunno. At least it's straightforward enough once you get Supreme Commander!

    ---

    As usual, good work. Well done with the tactical feats -- I think chunking it like that works nicely.

    ---

    Gosh, ANOTHER separater? I wish someone would post so I wouldn't have to keep editing.

    ---

    I'm still a bit leery on even once/round combat focus for the disciplined fighter. At least make them wait a couple levels for it (helping to solve your dip problem), but I'd like to see an action cost considered.

    It appears I know everything else in the disciplined fighter section!
    Last edited by Pechvarry; 2011-04-22 at 11:21 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    Improved Combat Aura is now a feat tax -- as far as I can tell, it takes you from a +5 bonus to all allies to a +11 at level 20.

    Domineering Presence>Walk it off, soldier has a type (allow an allow)

    On Now is the Time! Are you unable to activate any auras for the rest of the encounter? Or just the ones that were active when the ability was used? Personally, I like the latter, though maybe that'd be better if it were a doubling instead of a tripling. I dunno. At least it's straightforward enough once you get Supreme Commander!
    I believe you're mis-reading ICA, thinking that it adds +1/3 levels to the existing combat aura bonus. Rather it replaces the existing bonus progression with a progression of +1/3 levels. This is actually slightly less advantageous than before for a dedicated fighter, but it is a considerable boon to a multiclass fighter/whatever, who can take ICA and then gain an excellent combat aura progression based on his character level.

    Typo corrected in Domineering Presence. I really imagined Imperial Guard commissars from WH40K when I wrote this feat.

    NitT! shuts down all of your auras. Basically, it's a last ditch maneuver to try when you're desperate, or a killer bonus to apply when you've got the enemy on the ropes. You'd only ever use it once per combat, but with good timing, you should find a use for it in nearly every combat. Do you think it needs a recharge? I'm kind of inclined against it, as that would tend to encourage PCs to nova it on round 1 or round 2 in an attempt to wipe the monsters off the battlefield before the fight as even properly begun.

    As an aside, I'm finding that stepping away from uses per day or uses per encounter and moving into at-will abilities with significant drawbacks is a very fun design space. Limited-use abilities are illogical for characters with a martial power source (why can't I swing my sword like that more than once per day?), but at-will abilities with the right drawbacks are inherently spammable (as they should be), yet the player won't generally want to spam them (which would be boring anyhow). Instead, the player is invited to try to create tactical situations where the benefits of the ability are maximized and its drawbacks minimized - which leads to tactical maneuvering, teamwork, and use of the environment (which makes for fun, interesting fights). Also, I just like the feel that's created when martial characters are encouraged to exploit chance, opportunity, and cunning in situations where divine, arcane, or psionic characters would just be using their spells or powers.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'll see your bar and raise you a double-bar.

    Combat Focus edited to require disciplined fighter 3rd. If they sink three levels into the class, they deserve some spoils at that point.

    Combat Psychic edited again, hopefully to neither suck nor be abusable at this point.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edit: Renamed thuggish fighter to cunning fighter and improved its sneak attack progression. Added two new ambush feats, revamped all of the others.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-04-23 at 03:41 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    As an aside, I'm finding that stepping away from uses per day or uses per encounter and moving into at-will abilities with significant drawbacks is a very fun design space. Limited-use abilities are illogical for characters with a martial power source (why can't I swing my sword like that more than once per day?), but at-will abilities with the right drawbacks are inherently spammable (as they should be), yet the player won't generally want to spam them (which would be boring anyhow). Instead, the player is invited to try to create tactical situations where the benefits of the ability are maximized and its drawbacks minimized - which leads to tactical maneuvering, teamwork, and use of the environment (which makes for fun, interesting fights). Also, I just like the feel that's created when martial characters are encouraged to exploit chance, opportunity, and cunning in situations where divine, arcane, or psionic characters would just be using their spells or powers.
    I wouldn't mind an entire system designed around this paradigm, actually. But that's not even D&D after that much work -- a bit more than a simple houserule, that.

    As usual, expect some heavy editing of this post as I hit the next Fighter types.

    ----

    Arterial having no duration can kinda suck. I understand mages can do wayyyyy worse, but "I hit once and run away and since he's a melee in the middle of the woods, he's toast". As usual, I hate it most from the stance of DMs using it against me, but I feel like a lot of cunning fighters would end up using the tactics I described above. Perhaps saying the wounds can not bring you below 0 HP would help?

    Blinding strike, same thing with the permanent duration. And once again, I know blindness/deafness is permanent and only level 2. But this has no save, and that's pretty harsh.

    Concussion and hamstring strikes seem to gain nothing from the Special: line. In the 1st case, it's redundant with the Benefits section. In the case of Hamstring, it just doesn't make sense (or I'm missing something). You could consider sacking extra D6s to increase the DC of the heal check. That would make it even more prominent that a simple cure minor wounds would suffice, though. Though you could always pull one of those deals where you must either get the Heal check or "heal more HP damage than the attack dealt", depending on how convoluted you feel like going.

    I guess that's all I have for Thuggish/Cunning.
    Last edited by Pechvarry; 2011-04-23 at 08:53 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    DEFENSIVE STANCE [Fighter]
    Benefit: Once per encounter when you declare you are fighting defensively or taking the total defense action, you may enter a defensive stance... Your defensive stance is initially usable only once per day. You gain an additional daily use at watchful fighter level 4th, and every four levels thereafter.
    This doesn't make sense, is it per encounter or per day?

    WEAPON MASTER FIGHTING STYLE
    Weapon Master: The stunt gladiator, the exotic weapon specialist, the soldier who practices endlessly to perfect his technique. These and other weapon master fighter archetypes emphasize technique above all else. A weapon master fighter gains Balance, Concentration, Iaijutsu Focus, and Sense Motive as class skills, and gains Weapon Focus (with a weapon of your choice) as a bonus feat. A weapon master fighter also gains proficiency with a single exotic weapon, armor, or shield of his choice.
    This doesn't mention which skills are important to the class.

    I just saw two small things that I thought you should know about. Otherwise, I love you're work on the fighting classes, keep it up!
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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by Omeganaut View Post
    This doesn't make sense, is it per encounter or per day?
    Both. You can use it only a certain number of times per day, but you can't activate it more then once per encounter.
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    Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Mostly I'm posting here to chime in on the feat retraining. Ever since Monte Cooke's excellent Fighters Fighters and Mo' Fighters book (Iron Heroes) had one of his Fighter Equivalents be able to retrain some feats on the fly, I've done a very limited thing in my games: a couple of the bonus feats (up to 3) that the fighter learns throughout his career are variable feats in this style.

    At one, it's a fun ability. At two, it's tactically interesting, as you can suddenly switch your spec and go down a different road for the day. At three, it starts to feel like you are some kind of feat-wizard. If it's really ALL those feats, I think that's way too much- you'd feel like a feat-cleric I would think.

    I would recommend you first test with either a limited number of variable feats, or a "feat pool" like a wizard's spellbook.


    The full round as a standard... that wasn't just something fighters had in earlier editions, EVERYONE could pull that stunt. Also remember that total number of attacks was much lower, and that BAB didn't diminish. I think diminishing +hit is as clever as I did the first day we were all in my old apartment cracking open our rushed delivery 3.0 PHBs, but I'm less pleased with the onerous requirements for full attacks (since everyone was always hasted starting at around 8th level, we still had that functionality throughout 3.0 :P ).

    What I am trying in the game I'm currently in is this:

    Once you are entitled to 3 attacks (11 BAB), your standard actions and attacks of opportunity can become double strikes, the first strike at your highest attack bonus, and the second at that -10. It's only -8 if your second attack is with a different weapon (two weapon fighting). This means that your standard action scales in a more limited fashion than your full attack- you basically get your 1st and 3rd attacks. Is this good? I don't know, it's not tested yet. I just figured you might be interested because you want to address the same problem as me. But *just* giving it to fighters (especially at 7th level- I would think this would be more like 9th, and have some associated penalty to represent time lost) seems like you'll have to do this same remake to the paladin, barbarian, and ranger, because at a minimum all the full BAB guys are gonna want in on this.

    Looking at your archetypes, which one is a town guard?

    Anyway, good luck.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by cfalcon View Post
    I would recommend you first test with either a limited number of variable feats, or a "feat pool" like a wizard's spellbook.
    Was gonna say a similar thing until I read your post! If you start off with your first floating feat with the choice of 2 different feats, then gained another 2 options/floating feat, it would make sense. You could basically have a backup feat-tree, go power attack if the combat expertise isn't helping, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by cfalcon View Post
    Once you are entitled to 3 attacks (11 BAB), your standard actions and attacks of opportunity can become double strikes, the first strike at your highest attack bonus, and the second at that -10.......But *just* giving it to fighters (especially at 7th level- I would think this would be more like 9th, and have some associated penalty to represent time lost) seems like you'll have to do this same remake to the paladin, barbarian, and ranger, because at a minimum all the full BAB guys are gonna want in on this.
    So make a house rule on standard action attacks based solely on BAB. That way any class with better than worst BAB gets a piece of the action eventually.
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    Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    So make a house rule on standard action attacks based solely on BAB. That way any class with better than worst BAB gets a piece of the action eventually.
    That's what I did. My point is, everyone keeps addressing it through special abilities that do about the same thing- just houserule the part that is broken.

    Remember, there's a VERY brief window of non-full-attack D&D. AD&D, AD&D 2ed just gave you the attacks. 3ed has a couple levels where full attack is an extra (inaccurate) swing, and then everyone is hasted and does partial charge + full attack. 3.5ed took that away, and immediately sold us back a bunch of ways to have it. But, my point is, I don't want a bunch of ways. I want one way, so that everyone who punches stuff has a way to punch on the move.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    I want one way, so that everyone who punches stuff has a way to punch on the move.
    You have that here...
    Once you are entitled to 3 attacks (11 BAB), your standard actions and attacks of opportunity can become double strikes, the first strike at your highest attack bonus, and the second at that -10.
    Mis-read the first time through, hehehe. I don't see how anything else needs saying to that honestly!
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    Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    You have that here...
    Well, this rule just lets fighters at 7th level make full attacks as standard actions. That doesn't cover it for everyone, it covers it for explicitly just fighters. It also seems too generous, and a benefit that stacks with high levels not seen yet.

    Pretend it came in at 8th level... and what if it let you take your *second* attack during the standard action, but all attacks are at a -2? So you spend 5 levels with one attack, then 3 levels with 2 attacks but only on a full round, then 2 levels with 2 attacks on a full round -or- two attacks with a penalty for a standard?

    Then we have another ability that comes it at 13th level. This one lets you take a *third* attack during the standard action, and all the attacks are at -2 (upgrading the old ability).

    Then a final one at 18th level, doing the same thing for the 4th attack.

    These could be tied to BAB, or they could just be how the fighter does it- but in the second case, you still need to update for everyone.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    This looks great, and I keep imagining a fighter raging while on a horse. Cool image.
    Nitpick: the final stand feat has a -10 to DC every time you use it past the first, but there is no DC mentioned in the feat other than that. You might want to switch it to "-10 to the check".

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Just a heads up: I DID look over the watchful and weapon master fighters, but I didn't have a whole lot of interesting input on them.

    It does kinda suck that the Watchful Fighter has no options in fighting styles, whereas every other style offers at least 2 choices at each fighting style level.

    Also, no crowd-control for watchful in feat support (though obviously, a Fighter is well-suited to the plethora of feats required to make that work). I'm always trying to find a way to make a sword/shield guy able to tank as well as Huge + Spiked chain + Stand Still/Improved Trip. It's flippin' hard.

    Oh, one idea I had and a correction concerning the same ability. First the correction:

    I think Exceptional Strength needs changed to read "add an extra amount of damage equal to 50% of your strength bonus" instead of "increase your strength bonus by 50%". The latter can be read to say "I have a 22 STR, so a +6 bonus, which is +9 when 2-handing, which is +13 with Exceptional Strength." I do believe that wasn't your intention.

    Idea, either as a choice for all level 3 Fighters to take in place of Exceptional Strikes, or as a bonus feat for watchful fighters (I prefer the latter): Unstoppable Strikes or Steadfast Swings or what-have-you. Basically, give up the benefits of Exceptional Strength to add Con to damage. Either requiring 1-handed weapons or forcing 2-handers to give up 1.5 STR if they use the ability.

    Good work and stuff.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Oops, under the description for the rage feat, you write "additional daily use at watchful fighter level 4th", obviously meat to be barbaric.

    Also, it's grammatically ambiguous underneath the Cunning Style II, since I read "as a move action" as applying only to the stealing bit, but re-reading it I see its actually meant to go over both parts of the conjunction. Its really annoying, to no one more than myself, but the redundant style of redundant repetition look is good for rules <.<

    EDIT: oh, and somewhere you mentioned that you get Skill Mastery for your key skills (as the daring outlaw ability). Perhaps you mean as the swashbuckler class feature, but still, fully writing it out is probably a better idea: "when making a skill check with one of your key skills, you may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent you from doing so."

    Moving on from the nitpicks, this remix actually gives a reason to play fighter ever while simultaneously organizing a lot of options for generating character concepts more easily. I definitely plan on integrating this into my campaigns and pushing it on any of my future DMs. ^.^

    However, on the style feats front, I notice the conspicuous absence of Insightful Strike for the cunning fighter, which is a great boon for swashbuckler-y concepts to actually have a reason to put points into int. Actually, drawing from the swashbuckler class some more, a Lucky feat could be a good addition to at least a couple of fighter styles.

    LUCKY
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    Prerequisite: Barbaric or Cunning fighter level 4th
    Benefit: Once per encounter, you may reroll any attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw. You may take whichever roll is more beneficial.


    That's probably written more like traditional 3.5 feats than what you're using, but there's the idea (and already a distinct improvement over the crap swashbuckler feature).

    Finally, the watchful fighter, since it seems to be sorely lacking in feats. There are two things that really jump out at me about him, a) that he's a reverse barbarian and b) that he's the dark, quiet stoic type. So here's some ideas (though I don't have a quick way to work them into the system): barbarians can't wear heavier armor, let the watchman use his armor more effectively, perhaps less encumbered by it or able to squeeze a little extra defense out of it. He's already got resistance to illusion, what about resisting enchantment (I saw a Mentalist yesterday where the prison guard was immune to the protagonist's hypnotist tricks, so it seems to fit)? This guy's a veteran of the watch, so it makes sense to let him have fast movement so he can better chase down criminals. Oh, and bump what Pechvarry said about crowd-control.

    Well, that was finally for feats, but finally finally, we have the Wild Cohort which (in addition to having a mood-breaking name as opposed to something more along the lines of Favored Mount or something) is really weird as written: it allows a full-grown human to call a snake his wild cohort, even though you obviously mean for it to act as a mount, and a snake is unrideable. As further weird, a wild cohort requires training to be used as a mount, but this shouldn't really be a barrier for a feat designed to get you a mount. The boosts themselves look not-overpowered, just the RAW is yucky. Especially if you mean for the mount to scale with cavalry fighter levels, since wild cohorts scale with character level. As a final critique of using that feat as given, its ambiguous about what is required to get a new one, maybe it takes some serious work, possibly another application of the feat, or maybe you just buy a fresh one. Clearing that up would prove most useful. Maybe I'll get off my arse and type out a replacement.

    Keep up the good work!
    Last edited by Okuno; 2011-05-16 at 08:21 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    This looks interesting, and I am going to look into it with greater depth later on, but I wanted to drop a question first after giving the class a quick read:

    If I'm playing a Watchful Fighter, do I have a way to ensure that the enemies focus on me instead of flying over/tumbling past/running around me to go after the squishies? At first glance, it seems that there's nothing that makes him a true defender, even if he excels at being a stone wall.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    I myself think that it needs to get more of the class feature bonus feats. I'm not sure that as is the Barbaric and such fighting styles are much more than the original class with a few extra bonus feats and several ACFs. Perhaps if you gained the actual benefits of the lower tiers of the second and third fighting styles, even if at a slower rate?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    This looks interesting, and I am going to look into it with greater depth later on, but I wanted to drop a question first after giving the class a quick read:

    If I'm playing a Watchful Fighter, do I have a way to ensure that the enemies focus on me instead of flying over/tumbling past/running around me to go after the squishies? At first glance, it seems that there's nothing that makes him a true defender, even if he excels at being a stone wall.
    I have a number of additional Watchful Fighter feats in development which will focus on carving out a tanking role. Development has just been... delayed slightly because Steam network is evil and offered me amazingly good prices on video games I'd always wanted to buy and now I have all these video games and there's just so few hours in the day and... you know how it is.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-05-19 at 05:28 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Why does the Fighter have good Will saves? It's a classic weakness that is worth keeping.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Why does the Fighter have good Will saves? It's a classic weakness that is worth keeping.
    Classic in the game, but not much sense flavorwise. Warriors are strong-willed, and they've probably got some skills against spells from training (or in the case of barbaric fighter, sheer force of will),
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