pathfinder tiers

[cfalcon]

I am trying to explain to you that Tier 1s make generating content hard on a GM, if they're being played to potential.

And I'll add that your GM needs to fix or nerf until everyone is happy. I don't understand why Gating in a Solar to cast Miracle is ludicrous, given how similar miracle and wish are in general- you save some XP, but still spend some. This still assumes that your DM allows you complete control of an angel: I wouldn't, though obviously he could aid you with miracle if he saw fit while he is undertaking actions to aid you in combat.

[navar100]

I think the argument the anti-tier 1 camp is making here is that tier 1's played to potential are bad. And for someone like Doc Roc "played to potential" means "beyond Team Solars." You can't claim that it isn't a problem because you don't play at that level, because then you're just ignoring the issue, which is that the potential power of the classes is too high.



Just because you can do it doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Tier 1's are a huge pain to deal with, in a general sense, and that's why they're seen as a design failure.

I'm not talking about game design and never had. All I said was that Tier 1 is not necessarily bad because some players, such as my group, don't particular mind the power that comes with playing Tier 1 classes. Those who do mind such power don't care for the Tier 1 classes. Some people are now getting on my case about it that I have no issue with the Tier 1 classes.

[navar100]

Navar, your tier 1's don't exactly sound like they're being player to potential. Just moderately optimized. What I'm thinking of is, let's say for example's sake, the following party:

Wizard/Incatatrix: Has a ridiculous amount of buffs up, and and blow anything with less than 1000 HP or 28 HD into the stratosphere with a standard action.

StP Erudite/Rainbow Servant: What's that? A creature with any kind of vulnerability? Oh look, there's a spell/power for that! (also applies to any other kind of challenge the PC's might face)

Druid/Planar Shepherd: If Wishes can't fix the problem, presumable acting 10 times faster than everyone else can.

Cleric: Who cares about prestige classes when you have 10 buffs up at all times and you're casting inside your own AMF?

How the hell do you challenge that? Of course, I'm talking about some pretty high power PrCs, but this isn't even that complicated. Even if for some reason all the party members aren't immune to damage, there is no give and take in encounters, either the PCs curb stomp everything, or they all die.

And that's only for combat. I can't even begin to imagine what kind of traps or roleplaying encounter one would use to give them any semblance of a challenge.

EDIT: One second thought, the StP Erudite probably doesn't work. Still, Beguiler is just fine.

Not in my original post on the subject but in a later posting I did say that any combination of things that makes the game non-functional is dealt with. When I played my Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell cleric the DM told me that he has to see how it goes with the possibility I couldn't use it any more, though he insisted on me actually having Persistent Spell feat to close the loophole of the feat RAW before errata which I agreed with. Turned out he could handle the power, so I kept it.

Pun-puns can happen. Their possibility of happening doesn't mean that Tier 1 classes are bad to use.

[navar100]

Navar, let me turn the question around, and let you pick up the burden of proof. Provide plots you'd want to run. Let the optimizers here have a crack at said plots, using only a single T1 caster.

The fact that the blasty wizard can outdamage the fighter is a lesser problem, and one that can be dealt with by jiggering with enemy difficulty a bit. The fact that a reasonably well-played T1 can trivially end whole plotlines is a much bigger deal. If the only people allowed to DM under your ideal vision of the game have the rules mastery to know of every move-countermove combo, the spare time and brainpower to account for all these, and the improvisational skills required to wing it when the PCs do something crazy, you're going to have very few DMs and consequently very few games. That's really all there is to it.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said the bolded part. I only said that Tier 1 classes aren't necessarily bad because some people are comfortable with the power level involved.

[Reluctance]

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said the bolded part. I only said that Tier 1 classes aren't necessarily bad because some people are comfortable with the power level involved.

The bolded part is the direct consequence of a T1 played to full potential. Please actually address the first part of my post, where I ask for T1-proof plots.

Look. I'll grant that some people like the wild, wacky world of powers interacting in every which way. I'm just saying that they're playing a very different game from the barbarians and rogues of the world. When two characters of the same level in the same system are playing such radically different games - especially when the system implies that they're all meant to bb about the same - that's a bug in the system.

[Provengreil]

Way back when the implication of Divine Metamagic wasn't yet fully realized and Persistant Spell was only +4 spell levels, I did use the combo. My DM and gaming group was ok with it. That's my point. Some gaming groups see and recognize the power and just aren't particularly bothered by it. Particular combinations of stuff can lead to non-functioning of the game and are dealt with, but the existance of having a really powerful character is not an issue.

That same campaign. I couldn't attend a gaming session. Something went wrong in that missed session, and there was a TPK scenario. (Not literally every character dead, but the party was in major guano.) When I returned next session it was up to me to fix it all. I could cast Resurrection on a dead party member, but there was much more to do. I casted Greater Planar Ally for an Astral Deva to get some guidance and help to solve the problem. In addition to an amusing anecdote of learning that an NPC we've seen a few times was really this Astral Deva in disguise, the Astral Deva and I rescued the party. Everyone was happy about that! The DM was happy I saved the campaign. The players were happy I saved their characters. No one complained of my awesomeness. No hand-wringing that I got an angel to do my bidding. No complaints from the barbarian who likes to trip that I did something more potent than tripping. No complaints from the rogue saying all he gets to do is some extra d6 in damage in specific circumstances while I call forth the heavens!

The power level of Tier 1 just doesn't bother us.

...so you cast one spell to do what it was intended to do rather than gate in a solar to grab a casting of miracle without paying XP to raise all of your party members for free? no efreeti infinite wish chains? wow, have you guys ever read half your spell descriptions? the implications of some of these spells go so far beyond the intentions it's absurd. I'd answer further but i'm pretty sure a lot of these other guys beat me to it.

[Gnaeus]

...so you cast one spell to do what it was intended to do rather than gate in a solar to grab a casting of miracle without paying XP to raise all of your party members for free? no efreeti infinite wish chains? wow, have you guys ever read half your spell descriptions? the implications of some of these spells go so far beyond the intentions it's absurd. I'd answer further but i'm pretty sure a lot of these other guys beat me to it.

Believe it or not, many players are not intending to break the system. I have never, ever, seen an infinite wish chain cause a problem in a game. I have never even seen a player suggest it as anything other than a joke. In my current game, if a caster wants to use a spell in a certain way and he thinks it might be problematic, he runs it by the DM first and we act like adults. With mature players, and an understanding that any trick we pull, the DM can pull back at us, this issue is not an issue.

[Provengreil]

Believe it or not, many players are not intending to break the system. I have never, ever, seen an infinite wish chain cause a problem in a game. I have never even seen a player suggest it as anything other than a joke. In my current game, if a caster wants to use a spell in a certain way and he thinks it might be problematic, he runs it by the DM first and we act like adults. With mature players, and an understanding that any trick we pull, the DM can pull back at us, this issue is not an issue.

Me neither. I have a munchkin inside. He spends a lot of time sobbing quietly in the corner as I look down my character sheets. but this conversation isn't about what he wants to do, it's about what he can do and why what he can do breaks the game and makes things unnecessarily difficult for the DM, etc.

[MeeposFire]

Me neither. I have a munchkin inside. He spends a lot of time sobbing quietly in the corner as I look down my character sheets. but this conversation isn't about what he wants to do, it's about what he can do and why what he can do breaks the game and makes things unnecessarily difficult for the DM, etc.

Actually this conversation is supposed to be about the tiers and pathfinder classes, not a discussion about tier 3 being the best tier, how much some people think playing in a tier one game is playing the game wrong, or that 3.5 is so messed up that playing it is problematic. Unfortunately this topic is a bit off base.

[Gnaeus]

Me neither. I have a munchkin inside. He spends a lot of time sobbing quietly in the corner as I look down my character sheets. but this conversation isn't about what he wants to do, it's about what he can do and why what he can do breaks the game and makes things unnecessarily difficult for the DM, etc.

But anyone can break the game and make things unnecessarily difficult for the DM. They can do stupid, campaign ending things. They can just refuse to engage in anything plotlike, or split the party in a way that the DM can't manage, and justify it with some IC reason. The unwritten contract in most groups (that I have seen anyway) is that players don't try to break the game, and the DM tries to run the game in such a way that doesn't shatter suspension of disbelief by making the PCs want to do what the players want them to do.

Actually this conversation is supposed to be about the tiers and pathfinder classes, not a discussion about tier 3 being the best tier, how much some people think playing in a tier one game is playing the game wrong, or that 3.5 is so messed up that playing it is problematic. Unfortunately this topic is a bit off base.

You are right, meepos. sorry.

[MeeposFire]

But anyone can break the game and make things unnecessarily difficult for the DM. They can do stupid, campaign ending things. They can just refuse to engage in anything plotlike, or split the party in a way that the DM can't manage, and justify it with some IC reason. The unwritten contract in most groups (that I have seen anyway) is that players don't try to break the game, and the DM tries to run the game in such a way that doesn't shatter suspension of disbelief by making the PCs want to do what the players want them to do.



You are right, meepos. sorry.

I am not mad at anybody just bringing up a reminder that as interesting as this can be it actually is not the conversation at hand. So its cool (that goes for everybody). Of course I am not the OP. If the OP likes this conversation the OP is more than welcome to say so and tell us to keep going.

[peacenlove]

On Topic, what do you think the Tier of magus (new class in Ultimate Magic) will be?

[Curious]

A secondary spellcaster with full BAB and the ability to effectively two-weapon fight with his magical abilities? I'm betting it'll be a solid tier 3.

[navar100]

...so you cast one spell to do what it was intended to do rather than gate in a solar to grab a casting of miracle without paying XP to raise all of your party members for free? no efreeti infinite wish chains? wow, have you guys ever read half your spell descriptions? the implications of some of these spells go so far beyond the intentions it's absurd. I'd answer further but i'm pretty sure a lot of these other guys beat me to it.

I wasn't high enough level to cast Gate. I still probably would have used Greater Planar Ally anyway because that was all I needed. I might have casted Miracle myself and not care about the XP because the party meant a lot to me than to worry about XP. When I finally could cast Miracle I was certainly not shy in doing so to get the party the heck out of Dodge fast when the excrement hit the air circulation device. I was still bad-ass myself, what with Divine Metamagic Persistent Greater Aspect of the Deity as just one of my persisted spells. The party, not just me, was very powerful. We faced equivalent powerful foes. We were facing Armageddon, as our world was being invaded by demons and devils.

No, we don't even try for inifinite wishes because that's stupid. Just because I Win The Game F You DM stuff is possible doesn't mean we must therefore try it. Everyone has limits. Our limit just happens to be at a higher power level than you are comfortable with.