Doctor Who (again) [SPOILERS]

[CurlyKitGirl]

H'okay. I just finished my write up of 'Daleks in Manhattan' in another window. Let's answer these before I combine the two.
Advanced notice: that was not a good episode.

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That's because it is Ardal O'Hanlon. I was very surprised and happy to see him on Dr Who.

[...]

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It gets explained at a later point in the series.

Really? It was. That's wonderful.
As to the latter info: I look forward to seeing how it's explained then.

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It's been a while since I watched that episode, but I was generally under the impression he was going to close them down because he doesn't like moods (Because Drugs Are Bad). Martha having been abducted just made him angrier about it.

It doesn't come across all that well at all. He seemed to almost tolerate it, and then utterly loses it when Martha's kidnapped. It didn't sound much like it was the other way although I can see it might have been intended to.

What I don't get is: why don't they just walk? Ten miles, it'd take me maybe 2 hours to walk that far. Even if there isn't a particularly direct route, gotta be less than six years.

Laziness? Really bad pollution? Plot? No idea.

N'aww. You're adorable.

Cats. Cars are adorable.

Ehh, contrived coincidences happen. My personal theory is that the Doctor, as a Time Lord, has an innate sense for where history can change, timelines be re-routed etc, which is why he always seems to be in exactly the right place at the right time - he's instinctively drawn to those places and times.

I can roll with that.

Add #t=XmYZs where X and YZ are the minutes and seconds respectively (So in this instance, #t=3m0s)

Merci beaucoup.

Yeah, that was misdirection when she said that. Trying to play it cool or some such, because he didn't seem to be interested.
Sorry to disappoint you.

Martha upsets me. A lot.
So much she has a new sobriquet: Martha the Moron.

That happens on pretty much anything where they state a short time limit. I've never really gotten why they don't just time the scene and change the line accordingly.

Lazy writing?

Best bit of the episode to my mind.

Hence why it went down under my Best Moments section.

The Nu Who Trek continues. And now, to boldly go where many have gone before. [*cue TNG theme (I love that theme song so much)*]

'Daleks In Manhattan' part 1/2 (Season Three, Episode Four)
Same format as before.

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Those are some atrociously stereotypical American accents. Did anyone else think of this Tallulah when they saw the (presumably) lead girl? Lazlo's in for some Death though.
And this opening Monster In the Warehouse is so very 'Rose'.
AND PIG-MAN!
How weird must it have been for people watching this expecting Daleks and getting Pigmen first time around? Because I'm weirded out. I want my Daleks, the title of the episode spoils the Daleks, so why am I getting Pigmen?
Writer is Helen Raynor for the record.
Some stuff about loving the city of New York and the Statue of Liberty. The Blatant Pointing Out of the Empire State Building is going to be more important than for dating the adventure. The exact date is 30/11/1930. Smack dab in the beginnings of the Great Depression then.
How can Martha not know what Hooverville is?! And barely knowing about the Wall Street Crash! Didn't she do GCSE History in school? "What, they [the homeless] actually live in the park? In the middle of the city?" Martha. No offence pet, but I'm fairly certain there are homeless people in the parks of London too. Even now.
Oh. And some SUBTLE symbolism. Solomon dividing the bread in two. And he's basically King of Hooverville. And he preaches about "act[ing] like human beings" because it's all they have. Is he the Messiah? Yep. Just preached about living in an "equal society", and points out the Empire State Building again. before cutting to it. Hey, called it. Not that I'm proud of it considering it was like being hit in the face with a bit of two-by-four.
"The new masters" demand speeding up construction of the building. Bets? None taken. Daleks. Easy. It's in the title. And what's up with this guy? 'maystars'. Can you get any more stereotypical?
God, Mr Diagonal is so hammy and clichéd it hurts. In a very bad way.
Okay: Dalek: Scary. Pigmen servants: ruin it.
But it's still a Dalek. I can be happy. And they're experimenting on humans again! But what's up with the semi-frequent shots through the Dalek's eyepiece? It does nothing for the plot, the scene or the shot. It's gratuitous exploitation of the Dalek POV, which was done much better in 'Dalek'. When it had purpose.
Okay. I've figured this plot out. The Diagonal Man is hiring people from Hooverville (heh, just had it fulfilled as I wrote it. He has a pimpin' hat Diagonal Man has), and then they're being experimented on by Daleks. *sigh* And turned into Pigmen.
Daleks? In this episode you suck.
And does anyone from Tennessee sound like Tennessee Boy?
Sweet Jeebus. Does everything King SOlomon say have to sound so preachy? He vexes me.
Ick! Dead jellyfish thing. It's wibbly wobbly goop too. And Martha has a gem of a line here: "It's not human, I can tell you that". No way sweetcakes. No way. I could have told you that, and I'm not a medical student.
15.00 More raptures about the Empire State Building. I'm beginning to think Ms. Raynor has a crush on the thing. It's a complete plot coupon now. The Dalek panels(?!) are being attached to the lightning conductor of the building. Hello technotreknobabble!
Diagonal Man, you're so going on my Worst Actor list.
Why is the Dalek chatting with his human ally? Why is the Dalek envying humankind and New York?! WHY IS THE DALEK CONFESSING ITS INNERMOST SECRETS AND ENVIES TO DIAGONAL MAN?! And commiserating with him?! And complimenting the Diagonal Man by telling him he would "make a good Dalek"?!
Okay, okay. I'm pausing the video to point something out here.
This is a Dalek - not the Leader of the Cult of Skaro, but still a Dalek - and it is philosophising with an inferior human being as if they were equals! Feeling is not what a Dalek does. Remember the episode 'Dalek' Ms. Raynor?! Where a Dalek upon feeling emotions committed suicide because emotions made it no longer a true Dalek!!
And yet we have a Dalek feeling sad and pensive. Also: way to go recycling the line from 'Dalek' which literally sent the Doctor over the edge back into sanity.
I know these are the special Daleks, the ones asked to think like the enemy (the Time Lords) to outmanoeuvre them, but that does not entail developing emotions. Aside from omnicidal mania obviously. They didn't act like this in the season two finale 'Army of Ghosts'/'Doomsday' and I refuse to believe they suddenly 'developed' emotions. Daleks are basically SPACE NAZIS OBSESSED WITH PURITY! NO EMOTIONS ALLOWED! EMOTIONS ARE NOT DALEK!
Also, this Messenger Dalek, which one is he? He's not Dalek Sec. And so he's Jast, Caan (Khan?) or Thay.
Either way: no. emotions. allowed.
Emotions are genetically removed from a Dalek at its . . . creation? . . . so this is awful characterisation! Awful. Boo.
And now Dalek Sec is going to Pigmanify the Diagonal Man. Obviously.
And why have the Daleks suddenly developed a need for Pigman servants! And why are you copying the fake out alien from the Slitheen two-parter? It was a silly thing. And now it's treated seriously.
Dalek Sec is cool. He's shutting up the obnoxiously New Yorkian Diagonal Man.
Shame we can't see what happens to him. But the Doctor and co. are being stalked by a Pigman! In the sewers!
These two native 1930s Earthers are taking this Pigman epidemic scarily well. I know this is New York where anything goes; but Pigmen. Rabid ones.
I'm sorry.
I can't take this seriously. I can't.
This is officially the worst episode of all Nu Who except 'Love and Monsters' unless the last twenty minutes and the final part is gobsmackingly amazing. Daleks don't need Pigmen. And why steal all those humans just to make them Pigmen? It's stoopid.
Tennessee Boy makes a heroic sacrifice and dies. Typical. Solomon just turned into the Doctor! Because what Solomon just said (23.20ish) ("I don't want to lose anyone else!") is exactly what the Doctor would say. Exactly.
And now the Doctor's making technotreknobabble science out of a bakerlite and radio tubes. Pushing it.
If you think I'm ignoring Tallulah, she bugs me. It's the accent. And her flatness. And she doesn't seem to have any importance to the plot other than being the love interest of Pig!Lazlo.
Ugh. Tallulah brings up Martha/Doctor romance.
T: "It's obvious."
M:" Not to him."
T: "Oh, he's into musical theatre" (aka: gay)
hate Martha. hate Tallulah. Like that last line.
And now Solomon's Rallying the Troops. About fifty odd humans versus four Daleks. Fail. Especially given the epic urinating contest between thousands of Cybermen and four Daleks.
Cyberman: You would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks?
Dalek: Negative. We would destroy the Cybermen with one Dalek.
What does Ms. Raynor think fifty humans can do?!
Back to the Dalek basement. They're conducting "the final experiment" (hello awkward).
What.
What.
WHAT.
Dalek Sec: "We need your flesh. Bring him to me."
Did I not just discuss how the last Dalek alive (or so he thought) topped himself because he was infected by human DNA? And now Dalek Sec wants to be a hybrid. Daleks. Purity of the Dalek race.
What's so hard to understand here?
Oh thank you Daleks Thay, Jast and Caan (two of the three) for objecting to this plan. But Dalek Sec talks over them. Yes, yes, outthinking the enemy, I remember too; but logic doesn't work on Daleks!
D Thay: "WE must remain pure"
D Sec: "NO Dalek Thay, our purity has brought us to extinction! [[but. but. Daleks. Purity. It's their thing! Above and beyond all others! They want to destroy everything to have ever existed ever because they are not Dalek. This destroys the Dalek imperative.]] We must adapt to survive! [[Need I remind everyone of the lone Dalek who killed himself because he felt emotions rather than survive]] We have all made sacrifices. And no I will sacrifice myself. For the future of all Dalekkind."
And Dalek Thay sacrificed his body panels for this plan.
Dalek Sec's a nutter.
Who just . . . that was not its mouth! . . . absorbed the Diagonal Man. Doesn't compute. At all. Not one bit. I've gone on about this a lot, just trust me. This is exactly what Daleks are not meant to do.
And Tallulah's song? The Devil In Me? Another beating around the head with a two-by-four. Pssst. The devil is the Dalek.
And now Pig!Lazlo's spying on Talluah on stage, and Martha the Moron is sneaking across the stage while a show is on to get to him. Rather than go behind the curtain. Martha's an idiot. Massive one. And apparently Pig!Lazlo's "different to the others" because of twue wuv apparently.
But still, the Doctor's figured out the green globby thing's from Skaro.
And Tallulah's come along into the sewers with the Doctor. Sad face. Even the Doctor doesn't want her along with him
Just punch her out.
Imagine the headache you'll get from listening to her atrocious accent.
I want to ship Martha the Moron and Tennessee Boy.
Why is everyone in this episode an idiot aside from the Doctor and the three Daleks who aren't Dalek Sec?
And why is the Doctor going "No no no no. They survive. They always survive while I lose everything." when he already knew the globby thing was from Skaro? Denial I suppose.
There is a glimmer of good in this episode though: The Doctor explains the Daleks to Tallulah. 36.55 - 37.10.
I don't get it though. Ms. Raynor knows what a Dalek is. And then she writes Dalek jast/Caan with his emotional discussion with the Diagonal Man. Dalek Sec's just a nutjob now.
Okay, and the eyeroll the Doctor gives Tallulah at 37.16 after she said something like, "Well, if that's not a human being, that kinda implies it's from outer space." He hates Tallulah as much as I do.
Dalek Sec is on fire. "We must evolve. Evolve. Evolve." Um. No. Daleks, one thing they don't do is evolve.
Pig!Lazlo's all human. Why did the Daleks need Pigmen slaves to steal humans?! They do it perfectly fine on their own!
Tallulah's a moron. She doesn't recognise her lover's voice. Or the massive clues. Oh Christ. Tallulah just said. "Wait. Come into the light." Beauty and the Beast much.
Doctor Who should be a joy to watch at its best. This is literally painful. Hey, how does Martha the Moron not know what a Dalek is when she's a Londoner. Or doesn't she remember the issue with London Torchwood? It's pretty hard to miss hundreds of millions of Daleks and Cybermen. There wasn't a reset over the two seasons.
And then we have double exposition. What the Dalek says is then repeated b Pig!Lazlo.
And now Pig!Lazlo's pulling a heroic sacrifice. And Tallulah still loves him, pigface and all. Urrr. She's devoted to him at least. Just noticed she's wearing stillettos and running around a sewer. And that gurning face (43. 20ish). Hate.
Oh God. Dalek Sec's giving birth.
That's something one should never hear or say or see. And why aren't the Daleks recognising the Doctor? The Daleks aren't morons.
"The Children of Skaro must walk again" like way back in the -
that is a tentacle rape head of awful special effects. In a pinstripe suit. The tentacles look disquietingly like penises.
And they kept the accent.
Dalek Diagonal: "I am a human Dalek. I am your future."
FAIL!

Preview thoughts:
A human mind controlled army. A pigman/human war. Daleks attack Hooverville (and win obviously). And things happen.

Best Moment:
The Doctor explains the Dalek race to Tallulah.

Worst Moment:
This is cheating, but eighty percent of the episode? It's wrong. Dalek Sec shouldn't have even thought of cross-breeding humans and Daleks.

Best Special Effect:
I can't think of one. Hooverville's not bad. I guess. Or the green globby thing. It really wasn't a good one for special effects. I mean, yes, the pigmen makeup was very well done, but it's pigmen acting as servants for the friggin' Daleks!

Worst Special Effect:
The human Dalek.

Best Actor:
The Doctor. For once. Shortly followed by the Dalek (Jast or Caan) who had a chat with Diagonal Man about their civilsations. Because, okay, as far as canon Dalek characterisation goes, it's abominable; but the actor still managed it fairly well.

Worst Actor:
Diagonal Man. And Tallulah. I much prefer Tallulah from Bugsy Malone.

Number of Times Rose Is Mentioned:
None. I am pleased.
However, one mention of Martha/Doctor.

Thoughts overall?
Worst episode of all of Nu Who so far, except for 'Love and Monsters'. I'm not much of a Whovian really; but I know Daleks. Everyone (okay, hyperbole, but still) knows what the Daleks are like. And it's not this.
Hell, not one of them even said "EXTERMINATE!" during the episode.
I get that Ms. Raynor's trying for something with Dalek Sec, but it's so against Dalek policy (all forty-eight years of the show's history) that I just don't like it.
I can handwave it as madness - even the other Daleks freak out over Dalek Sec - but I can't handwave the Daleks not exterminating Dalek Sec. He wants to be impure. The impure must be exterminated no matter what. Even Davros accepts that when the Daleks win he's going to be exterminated because he isn't human (yes, I saw parts of that serial), so why should Dalek Sec be any different?
Unless something radical happens to up this to simply 'below-par' this is the worst two-parter/single episode of all Nu Who. Except the aforementioned. And even then it's a close thing.

[Flame of Anor]

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Also, I'm sure there were some inconsistencies as to the location of the sonic screwdriver. Doctor gives it to other Doctor, then in a later scene the first Doctor has it again, but he never got it back.

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Ah, but we know the Flesh can duplicate clothes--who's to say it can't duplicate the sonic screwdriver?

[Aidan305]

And what is that point?

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Near the very end of the last episode of season 3. The following is the actual reason, so I'll warn against opening it if you don't want it spoiled.

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Jack comments that he was known on his home planet of Boe as "The Face of Boe", which in my opinion, makes the events of Gridlock that much sadder.

[Thufir]

'Daleks In Manhattan' part 1/2 (Season Three, Episode Four)
Same format as before.

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I want my Daleks, the title of the episode spoils the Daleks,

Got to say, that's something which rather annoyed me. If they'd given the episode a different title, it could have actually been a surprise when the lift doors opened to reveal a Dalek. The scene seemed pretty clearly written to make that a big dramatic reveal, which doesn't work when it was spoiled by the title.

How can Martha not know what Hooverville is?! And barely knowing about the Wall Street Crash! Didn't she do GCSE History in school?

Not everyone does, y'know. I didn't.

This is a Dalek - not the Leader of the Cult of Skaro, but still a Dalek - and it is philosophising with an inferior human being as if they were equals!

Far be it from me to defend this episode, but given the Cult of Skaro's purpose, they'd be more open to the possibility that non-Daleks can occasionally have good ideas, so I guess it's wondering if the humans have anything the Daleks can use (Though given the Daleks have conquered Earth before, you'd think they'd have a decent knowledge of human capabilities).
Also presumably testing to see how suitable he'd be to be a human Dalek?

And now Solomon's Rallying the Troops. About fifty odd humans versus four Daleks. Fail. Especially given the epic urinating contest between thousands of Cybermen and four Daleks.
Cyberman: You would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks?
Dalek: Negative. We would destroy the Cybermen with one Dalek.

Dalek: You are superior in only one respect.
Cyberman: What is that?
Dalek: You are better at dying.

[[but. but. Daleks. Purity. It's their thing! Above and beyond all others! They want to destroy everything to have ever existed ever because they are not Dalek. This destroys the Dalek imperative.]]

OK, so to my understanding, granted I haven't watched the relevant episodes, but I've read about them, Davros' rationale was as follows: The Daleks must ensure their survival. They can only do so by becoming the dominant species, and wiping out everything else. So technically the omnicide is secondary to survival.
So really it's just that Sec has a weird point of view for a Dalek. He thinks he'll still count as a Dalek when he's part human (And thus still qualify for ensuring the Daleks' survival). The others think he won't count any more.

Dalek Sec is on fire. "We must evolve. Evolve. Evolve." Um. No. Daleks, one thing they don't do is evolve.

Yeah, trying to do the whole repetition thing, but "Evolve" just doesn't work as well as "Exterminate".

Hey, how does Martha the Moron not know what a Dalek is when she's a Londoner. Or doesn't she remember the issue with London Torchwood? It's pretty hard to miss hundreds of millions of Daleks and Cybermen. There wasn't a reset over the two seasons.

...the cracks in time turned up earlier than we thought?

Oh, sidenote on the Human Dalek. Regardless of the quality of the idea, it happened, and it was clearly meant also to be a big reveal.
So guess what they did?
If you guessed "Revealed it in the Radio Times before the episode aired, you win a prize (that doesn't actually exist). Feel proud!
So bad at not spoiling their own show.

And back to the current:

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Ah, but we know the Flesh can duplicate clothes--who's to say it can't duplicate the sonic screwdriver?

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If the screwdriver was duplicated there would've been no need for one Doctor to throw it to the other.

And back to series 3, @Aidan305:

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That doesn't actually explain how he knew, unless you assume they randomly told him about that specific adventure of theirs off-screen.

[Szilard]

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Ah, but we know the Flesh can duplicate clothes--who's to say it can't duplicate the sonic screwdriver?

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Then why did he have to give it to the Flesh version earlier?

[Flame of Anor]

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If the screwdriver was duplicated there would've been no need for one Doctor to throw it to the other.

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Then why did he have to give it to the Flesh version earlier?

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Well, real!Doctor didn't know that it had duplicated it! So he gave ganger!Doctor the sonic, but got it back offscreen after he heard about the dupe sonic.

[Drglenn]

I think I missworded my bowtie comment:

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The example you mentioned I too would love, it embodies what I was saying I love the show for. I was trying to say that if there was some even in which his possession of a bowtie was the only thing that saved that day and he had known about it since he decided to start wearing a bowtie and has only been wearing a bow tie for that very reason... it would lesson the bowties are cool thing from something that I currently love completely into something still fun but not nearly as fun.

If feels a bit like the Doctor apologizing for being cool.

On the other one:

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You probably got it as it was intended. Like I said in the upper note though: the took a small moment of characterization that I absolutely loved and attached an explanation to it which didn't really need to be there. He wasn't worried about running straight off to find and answer because he was the Doctor, because he had a time machine... but no, instead it was because he needed to learn more about the Flesh and keep ganger amy from noticing anything.

10 did a very similar thing with the Marhta Ganger in Season 4 and that one made a little more sense because the Doctor's "Con" against the baddies didn't last as long. This one is suggested to have been going on for the better part of 9 months. (She'd have to had been taken before she started showing she was pregnant or Rory would have known).

I like that he's capable of plans, and I do like this plan and that he's done it so well. I simply felt a little let down that a moment of pure "I'm the Doctor" self revalry was excused by it all being part of the grand story.

Again, in case I'm not clear: I still loved it. I guess I'm more a fan of the moments when Who is silly for silly's sake than creepy for creepy's sake.

To the original statement that drew the comparison above:

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I think it was more that he was forced into researching it at that point in time by the TARDIS (most likely 'telling' the Doctor to get on with it). Note that at the start of The Rebel Flesh he was going to send Rory and Amy home, then they got spat out at a monastery. He saw the flesh, recognised it as a primitive version of Ganger!Amy and worked out from there how to sort it.

[Lioness]

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I think there are two screwdrivers...mainly because FleshDoctor kept one at the end, and RealDoctor had one too.

As for Amy's conversion...I'm thinking in the three months between the first couple of episodes.

Why the Doctor killed FleshAmy? RealAmy, during pregnancy, kept losing control and controlling FleshAmy as if she was herself - the random nausea, the contractions, the EyepatchLady. She was effectively splitting her attention between two versions of herself, and thus neither of them were getting the attention they needed. It's why the Doctor/s kept telling FleshAmy to breathe, because it was getting through to RealAmy. In order for RealAmy to get through the pregnancy successfully, FleshAmy had to go so RealAmy could concentrate properly on herself.

[Szilard]

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The TARDIS could've made another screwdriver in the end. It's been done before.

[Flame of Anor]

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The TARDIS could've made another screwdriver in the end. It's been done before.

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He's been through, what, half a dozen sonic screwdrivers? More?

[Drglenn]

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He's been through, what, half a dozen sonic screwdrivers? More?

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Easily more if you count the old series, New series he's been through at least 5 AFAIK:
'Rose' to 'Smith and Jones'
'Smith and Jones' to 'The Eleventh Hour'
'The Eleventh Hour' to 'A Christmas Carol'
'A Christmas Carol' to 'The Almost People'
'The Almost People' to present

(six if you count Jackson Lake's 'sonic' screwdriver from 'The Next Doctor' )

[Kobold-Bard]

Clearly he relies on the sonic screwdriver day to day, would it not make sense to have a few spare lying around the TARDIS in case something goes wrong with his primary one? I don't see why this is an issue.

[Thufir]

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Well, real!Doctor didn't know that it had duplicated it! So he gave ganger!Doctor the sonic, but got it back offscreen after he heard about the dupe sonic.

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Firstly, you've got your Doctors mixed up, it was Ganger Doctor (pretending to be Real Doctor) who gave the sonic to Real Doctor (pretending to be Ganger Doctor). Presumably they swapped that over when they swapped shoes.
Secondly, after that point, they never met up again until the end of the episode.
Thirdly, even if that were the case, it wasn't indicated in any way on-screen, so the story as it stands does not entirely make sense.

Annoyingly, IIRC, Ganger Doctor (pretending to be Real Doctor) didn't really do anything with the sonic while he had it when he shouldn't have. They could have just left him without it for that little moment and it all would have made sense.

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I think there are two screwdrivers...mainly because FleshDoctor kept one at the end, and RealDoctor had one too.

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But it's been previously established that the TARDIS just gives him a new sonic screwdriver whenever he loses or breaks the old one. She probably feels rather long-suffering about it, but she does it.

[The Big Dice]

H'okay. I just finished my write up of 'Daleks in Manhattan' in another window. Let's answer these before I combine the two.
Advanced notice: that was not a good episode.

Yo're right. It wasn't the best episode. But it made a classic mistake that happens all the time with Dalek stories: they put the word"Dalek" in the title. Just for once, it would be nice to have a reveal as surprising as the one in Army of Ghosts but mid season rather than for the finale.

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Why is the Dalek chatting with his human ally? Why is the Dalek envying humankind and New York?! WHY IS THE DALEK CONFESSING ITS INNERMOST SECRETS AND ENVIES TO DIAGONAL MAN?! And commiserating with him?! And complimenting the Diagonal Man by telling him he would "make a good Dalek"?!
Okay, okay. I'm pausing the video to point something out here.
This is a Dalek - not the Leader of the Cult of Skaro, but still a Dalek - and it is philosophising with an inferior human being as if they were equals! Feeling is not what a Dalek does. Remember the episode 'Dalek' Ms. Raynor?! Where a Dalek upon feeling emotions committed suicide because emotions made it no longer a true Dalek!!
And yet we have a Dalek feeling sad and pensive. Also: way to go recycling the line from 'Dalek' which literally sent the Doctor over the edge back into sanity.

Because Daleks aren't just extreminating machines. They are living creatures, genetically engineered to know that all other creatures are inferior. And yet it is looking over New York, a city that is scattered across time and space, with a human, a species that seems to survive everything that gets thrown at it. And it can't reconcile the seeming paradox it faces.

And don't forget that the Cult of Skaro are different from most Daleks. MOst Daleks are bred for a specific function, be it soldier or scientist or engineer or supreme or whatever. The Cult are different. They learn to think like their enemeies, and that includes melancholia.

This is officially the worst episode of all Nu Who except 'Love and Monsters' unless the last twenty minutes and the final part is gobsmackingly amazing. Daleks don't need Pigmen. And why steal all those humans just to make them Pigmen? It's stoopid.

Daleks used to have Ogrons as their slaves. What Daleks do is enslave lesser species to do work that is beneath the Daleks. Then exterminate them when they are no longer useful. The pig slaves are nothing new, just the latest in a line that goes back decades.

Who just . . . that was not its mouth! . . . absorbed the Diagonal Man. Doesn't compute. At all. Not one bit. I've gone on about this a lot, just trust me. This is exactly what Daleks are not meant to do.

Go read this. Apart from this 1967 story being the first time the Daleks were means to meet their ultimate end, a lot of the concepts used in Daleks of Manhattan and Evolution of the Daleks first appeared here.

And Tallulah's song? The Devil In Me? Another beating around the head with a two-by-four. Pssst. The devil is the Dalek.

Or is it physical affection? That's applicability rearing it's head, not allegory.

Worst Moment:
This is cheating, but eighty percent of the episode? It's wrong. Dalek Sec shouldn't have even thought of cross-breeding humans and Daleks.

Keep watching. The Doctor describes Sec as the cleverest Dalek there ever was. And he's right.

Thoughts overall?
Worst episode of all of Nu Who so far, except for 'Love and Monsters'. I'm not much of a Whovian really; but I know Daleks. Everyone (okay, hyperbole, but still) knows what the Daleks are like. And it's not this.
Hell, not one of them even said "EXTERMINATE!" during the episode.
I get that Ms. Raynor's trying for something with Dalek Sec, but it's so against Dalek policy (all forty-eight years of the show's history) that I just don't like it.

You'd be surprised. Daleks have changed a fair bit over the decades. They even had art and statuary in their city back in the first Dalek story. And they were wiped out at the end of it, too. And at the end of their second and fifth stories. BUt humans endure. It makes scomplete sense that Dalek Sec would see that and wonder why, what have humans got that Daleks don't? Sec was very much a visionary.

I can handwave it as madness - even the other Daleks freak out over Dalek Sec - but I can't handwave the Daleks not exterminating Dalek Sec. He wants to be impure. The impure must be exterminated no matter what. Even Davros accepts that when the Daleks win he's going to be exterminated because he isn't human (yes, I saw parts of that serial), so why should Dalek Sec be any different?
Unless something radical happens to up this to simply 'below-par' this is the worst two-parter/single episode of all Nu Who. Except the aforementioned. And even then it's a close thing.

Keep watching. I'd ultimately put the season 3 Dalek two part story on a par with the season 2 cybermen one. Sure, the accents are bit dodgy, but then so are Americans trying to put on British accents. So I'm happy to let that slide. And besides, I've talked to people from New Jersey and New York that have got horrifically nasal accents. And I've talked to people from London, Newcastle and Liverpool in the UK that are almost impossible to understand. So bad accents aren't an issue to me.

[Drolyt]

I liked Daleks in Manhattan. My understanding was that the Cult was deliberately different than other Daleks, which is why what's his name, Sec? could do what he did.

[Dienekes]

Worst episode of all of Nu Who so far, except for 'Love and Monsters'.

Wait until the second part. It involves:

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The Doctor being compliant with the death of I think around 100 innocents.
The Daleks failing to use a kill switch until after they are all but extinct, again. For the 4 smartest Daleks they are remarkably idiotic.
More freaking Tullullah
More focus on the hilariously poor designed human-dalek hybrid whose voice makes you want to punch him, repeatedy.
One of the worst played television romances I have ever seen. Mostly because it involves Tullullah.

Thankfully no more singing, or Daleks shoving humans up orifices.

[Triscuitable]

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Near the very end of the last episode of season 3. The following is the actual reason, so I'll warn against opening it if you don't want it spoiled.

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Jack comments that he was known on his home planet of Boe as "The Face of Boe", which in my opinion, makes the events of Gridlock that much sadder.

Oh, thank you. I didn't realize I already knew that. Thanks for the reminder. It's implication, but it's very likely that yes, it is indeed him.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Keep watching. I'd ultimately put the season 3 Dalek two part story on a par with the season 2 cybermen one.

The Age of Steel was alright to watch but in the end its a good job they set it in an alternate universe. If that was retconned as the true Cybermen origin it would be completely lame. You could forgive them copying Genesis of the Daleks if they'd actually copied the good things about it.

[The Big Dice]

The Age of Steel was alright to watch but in the end its a good job they set it in an alternate universe. If that was retconned as the true Cybermen origin it would be completely lame. You could forgive them copying Genesis of the Daleks if they'd actually copied the good things about it.

Or if they'd copied anything beyond adriven madman in a wheelchair based life support system. John Lumic has very little else on common with Davros. After all, one is businessman, the other a scientist. One wants to become part of his creation, the other just wants to see his creations rule the world. One lives in a developed and (seemingly) fairly peaceful world. The other in a world torn apart by a thousand years of genocidal war to the death.

Age of Steel and Genesis of the Daleks don't really have anything in common, other than being an origin story.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Age of Steel and Genesis of the Daleks don't really have anything in common, other than being an origin story.

Anything closer and it would have been a re-telling.

Unoriginality doesn't have to be all consuming to be there.

The 4th Doctor's evil robot stories had quite differant plots but he still had too many of them the the point that they were becoming stale.

[CurlyKitGirl]

The Nu Who Trek continues. And now, to boldly go where many have gone before. [*cue TNG theme (I love that theme song so much)*]

'Evolution of the Daleks' part 2/2 (Season Three, Episode Five)
Same format as before.

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As a warning, thanks to the name Tallulah I've been randomly cutting away to songs from Bugsy Malone for the past day. Tallulah had her training in north Carolina, and frankly, lyrics might end up slipping in. Or other comments about Bugsy Malone.
You know, one of the worst things about Diagonal Dalek has to be the teeth. I don't know why, it just bugs me that he has teeth. They look eerie, even in a face full of tentacles and a Cyclopian eye and a mostly exposed brain.
Yay! 1.46: our first "EXTERMINATE!" Those spasmodically jerking tentacle/penis things are really really stupid.
DD: "I am a Dalek in human form." In a pinstripe suit. With penises on his head. Ick! 03:00 we get them in the direct foreground!
The Doctor discusses the joys of music, and how Daleks can't understand it. Nice moment. Ah! I forgot this, but the Dalek theme (I think it's Hebrew or Sanskrit) is wonderful, threatening and really gets across the proper threat of the Daleks.
More running through sewers. Tallulah's still there. Ugh.
Dalek: "They have ascended" - bet they're going to ELEVATE! - oh my. Gossiping Daleks! "But you have doubts." *turn eyestalk* "Affirmative." [in a lower tone than usual] Nice to see the Daleks aren't as willing to obey Dalek Diagonal as they seem. Plus, the absurdity of the moment. Daleks. Gossiping.
Hehe. Solomon wants to reason with the Daleks. Even though the Doctor's all but ordering them out of the slum town.
*sigh* And the pigmen attack. It's hectic, but so preposterous. I've seen more pigmen than Dalek action. And these Pigmen manage to herd all the humans with guns into a convenient huddle by the fire. Weren't these the humans of "low intelligence" mentioned last episode? Still, it's nicely shot, and it's not like the humans have a concerted plan of attack.
Hey! Idiot boy shoots a Dalek. And yes, Daleks have been confirmed as "metal devils" (Solomon), meaning the song from the last episode did indeed refer to the Daleks.
Thay's with DD, so Jast and Caan go around torching the slum town with their lasers. I truly hate the look of Dalek Diagonal. Who then admires the "courage" of humankind. I am torn.
And Solomon reaches out to the Daleks. It's nice that he's ideal and all, but you know the Daleks have been abducting people for weeks, turning them into Pigmen, you've more than likely heard tell of what's been going on in the Dalek basement, and then they lasered your township. And the Doctor, probably one of the most idealistic men in the universe, is begging you not to do this. Nice sentiment, let's see what happens:
S: From what I hear, you're outcast too [. . .] Daleks, ain't we the same. Underneath, ain't we all kin? See, I just discovered this past day that God's universe is a thousand times the size I thought it was [. . .] Oh yeah, it terrifies me, right down to the bone; but surely it's got to give me hope.
Hope that maybe together, we can make a better tomorrow. So I beg you, now, if you have any compassion in your heart, then you'll meet with us, and stop this fight.
Well, what do you say?
Dalek: EXTERMINATE!
*dead Solomon*
I understand this is a case of the viewer knowing more than the character, and so there's a very dark humorous tone to this segment, but well. I also understand that Solomon's trying to stop his people getting killed, but this scene smacks of stupidity. Especially if we assume that Solomon's been told all about the Daleks, which is implied (at the very least) during the part where the Doctor's talking with Solomon.
Cue people being surprised and scared and saddened by this. Uh. Duh. What makes Solomon so special that his death above all others is to be mourned as something momentous? The fact that Solomon irks me doesn't exactly endear me to his heroic death scene.
The Doctor gets all angry with his angry face on and demands Dalek . . . Jast. Let's go with Jast. Kill him. Right there and then. And Dalek Diagonal says no.
The Dalek reasonably responds "I do not understand." Neither do I. This is the Time Lord who singlehandedly destroyed the Dalek invasion force back in 'Army of Ghosts/Doomsday' and was a pivotal role in ending the Last Great Time War between the Daleks and the Time Lords; destroying them forever. Except for a few survivors.
Frankly, I'm with Jast on this one, but let's see what Diagonal has to say about this. It could be a sadistic choice thing. Right? Right?
Diagonal: "I want him alive."
Jast: "The urge to kill is too strong."
Diagona: l"I ahve decided. I want him alive."
Jast: "The urge to kill is too strong.
Diagonal: "I have decided. The Doctor must live. And you will obey me."
Jast: "I . . . obey."
Diagonal: "Bring him to me."
Aaaand that's all folks. For now. Diagonal's becoming more and more ridiculous by the way; this entire exchange (10.40 - 11.08 or so) is so . . . Shatnerian it hurts. This is a parody of Shatner. The delivery is so staccato and unsure that it comes off as unreal. Like the actor hadn't learned his lines and was reading them off very large cue cards in the distance.
Martha the Moron throws a hissy fit. "NO!" After all, "what about us?" Well, considering the Doctor is going with his archenemy to save them all, it's a good thing he's going with his archenemy to save "us".
Tennant has a good angry face. And the Doctor exacts a promise from the Daleks to not hurt the humans. Do Daleks keep their promises?
12.00: obvious wink moment between Martha the Moron and the Doctor. Hello plot device. Psychic paper! I was expecting the sonic screwdriver, to be honest. Some Martha stuff; she's thick and doesn't understand. It's psychic paper. Sneak into some place or something! Okay, I'm being harsh, I don't get the plan either; probably sneak into the Empire State Building and do some shenanigans.
Hehe. Irony here. Diagonal: "The future of the Daleks may depend on the Doctor." Diagonal's plan is to use the Doctor's intellect to . . . further the experiment? Cool. Now to get the Doctor to ally himself however unwillingly with his hated enemies after they just killed people in front of him. I'm betting blackmail myself. The Doctor's heart is too big to do otherwise.
13;10 the Doctor gets his angry face on again. The tend -
Diagonal: "The deaths, were wrong!"
The Doctor is literally shocked out of his rage. I. Am stunned. The Daleks obeying Diagonal are almost certainly feeling the way I am. Daleks enjoy killing. It is their raison d'etre. To survive. To be pure. And to do so they kill.
Seriously, the Doctor's all: "Sorry?!" He literally cannot believe his ears. His eyebrows are raised. He's leaning towards Diagonal. A complete turn around in attitude, tone and body language. Go Tennant.
Diagonal: "That man. Their leader, Solomon, he showed courage." Still pulling a Shatner on us.
Doctor: "And that's good?"
Diagonal: "That's excellent."
Doctor: "Is it me or are you becoming a little more human?"
Diagonal: "You are the last of your kind. And now I, am the first of mine."
Doctor: "What do you want me for?"
Diagonal explains their usual way for manufacturing Daleks doesn't work. So they went and stole untold hundreds of humans! And they show the Doctor.
Hello angry face!
Some exposition about putting a Dalek mindset and 'soul' into a human body. No angry face. I'm just saying that maybe the Doctor would lose it upon seeing more than a thousand of basically brain dead (and soulless) humans all packed away neatly in little boxes.
Doctor: "So they're like shells!"
The Doctor is intrigued. Is he acting?
Ugh. Back with Martha the Moron. She has a clue! Also: Dalekanium? Sure, why not. And yes, there will be shenanigans involving the ESB. I'm betting it has to do with the Dalek casing attached to the lightning rod. And conveniently there's a big storm coming along.
Okay.
Let me get this straight.
The humans are shells, awaiting a new form of life. To be the first generation of human Daleks.
And the Diagonal Dalek is awaiting merely a storm to bring them to life.
Will he then burst into a maniacal cackle and utter the immortally clichéd words "IT'S ALIVE!!!!!eleventy-one!" Ah sci-fi. If it's an actual lightning bolt as opposed to some technotreknobabble, I will have a large drink! Except I can't on account of not having any alcohol in my room. And being on medication. Sometimes the oldest clichés are the most fun.
Tennessee Boy's all sad and stuff. Some exposition about the ESB and Diagonal's plots.
back with the Doctor! The ESB is an energy conductor. Diagonal's a genetic template for the new species, and for this to happen it needs gamma radiation to splice the DNA together with the normal human DNA. And wake the humans.
There's my technotreknobabble! Also, wouldn't that make the human Daleks mostly human? Right. Normal science and technotreknobabble science don't mix.
Good heavens those penis protrusions are disgusting.
They're after a solar flare, not a storm.
And Diagonal asks for the Doctor to assist in the creation of this. I'm thinking there's going to be a HELL TO THE NO! reaction coming any -
DD: Consider the pure Dalek. Intelligent but emotionless.
TD: Removing the emotions makes you stronger. That's what your creator thought all those years ago.
DD: He was wrong.
TD: He was what? [And the Doctor is stunned again by DD's response. Me too. I'm not well read on Daleks, but, to paraphrase Python, don't they Daleks have an almost fanatical devotion to Davros? Nice reaction from Tennant either way. Not as big as the earlier one, but you can see he's very confused by the Dalek in front of him. At first his eyebrows are raised inquiringly, sort of condescendingly, but then the tone shoots up, the brow wrinkles almost comedically. (17:40 - 17:53)]
DD: It makes us lesser than our enemies. We must return to the flesh [Daleks T/J/C turn their eyestalks in obvious surprise] and also, the heart.
TD: You wouldn't be the supreme beings any more. [The Doctor is just impossibly confused. I am too.]
DD: And that is good.
D J/T/C: That is incorrect. Daleks are supreme.
DD: No Not any more.
D J/T/C: But that is our purpose?
DD Then our purpose is wrong!
[stuff]
TD: So you want to change everything that makes a Dalek a Dalek. [The Doctor looks virtually freaked out by this. 18:35, look at that face, it's just confused and a little disturbed.]
Aaaaand, okay, as much as I don't like Ms. Raynor's writing, I have to give her credit here. The episode 'Dalek' is good foreshadowing for DD's change of heart and beliefs, just here DD wants to live, rather than die. I can, however, no longer call DD a Dalek.
Better face at 18:40. Amazing face. Shame about the penis tentacles. You could so take this out of context and have a screencap with the Doctor freaking out because of the tenctacle rape head. W. T. F.
Diagonal essentially wants the Doctor to de-Dalek the Daleks. By . . . reanimating corpses. Like in 'The Unquiet Dead'! Damn. The writing is much better in this episode than the last, that or everything's making more sense in this episode. Pretty obviously given it's a two-parter.
Called it. Martha the Moron/Tennessee and Tallulah (lonely, you don't have to be (lonely)) are in the ESB.
Buh whut. Diagonal wants to make his DNA even more human. I think Diagonal just has a crush on humanity as a whole. "Humans are the greatest survivors. We need that ability." Considering how many times the Daleks have come back from extinction they're the proverbial cockroaches of the Whoniverse. And the Master.
That hand makeup looks very ill-fitting (19:16)
The Doctor points out a flaw in Diagonal's plan. The other Daleks, but "Daleks must follow orders." So he's up the creek as far as that out goes. And then Diagonal asks for the Doctor to use his TARDIS (speaking of, did you know TARDIS has had an entry in the OED since 2002?) to take the new Dalek race to a new world to live in peace. Never thought I would type the sentence 'Daleks . . . [want] to live in peace' anywhere outside of a fanfic. The Doctor is wigged. (19:51) Tennant has very plastic features. I approve.
Okay, it's quarter to four in the morning. I'm halfway through the episode. best hurry.
The Doctor is complying with the Daleks. The Doctor is working with the Daleks. Again, another sentence I thought I'd never write. At least there are . . . 'logical' reasons for it. Internally. Even though I highly doubt the Doctor would ever ally himself with the Daleks of all people. But for a new race? He still has survivor guilt. But over destroying the Daleks? Maybe he's doing it to destroy the Dalekian aspect of the Daleks. A sneaky genocide.
More Martha stuff. I do have to admit that at least they had a reasonable excuse to discover what we already know. Even if they then take a fifteen second break to geek out over New York. I think RTD's in love with New York.
Technotreknobabble. Pigslaves live a couple weeks. The Daleks are obviously planning something. So many eyestalk turnings. And the Doctor's working with Diagonal because he believes he can change the course of history.
AARGH! Back with Martha the Moron and Tallulah. More romance going on. T: "So how'd you hook up with the Doctor?" HEADDESK! 23:00 And hello Rose. What's so special about ROSE?! Martha: "He's not seeing me." Who. Cares. You're a Companion. They come and go.
Oh Lordy Lordy Lord. They have power switches on the walls like in the stereotype cartoons. Nice effects with the human storage area though.
The Daleks rebelled! 25:20! Woo! Daleks are acting like Daleks. Daleks: "You have lost your authority. You are no longer a Dalek." Awesome.
Pig!Lazlo and the Doctor escape; Pig!Lazlo's dying. Diagonal is now on his knees before Dalek . . . Thay? Jast? Caan? And they used their orders against him! Thinking like their enemies to overthrow the Diagonal Dalek.
Meanwhile, the Daleks have overriden the lifts; and the Doctor's climbing the outside of the unifished ESB. To dramatic music! And the Diagonal Man is in chains. It's four people (well, three and a half-pigslave) against many Pigslaves. Apparently "They're trained to slit your throat with their bare teeth." These tusks are maybe three inches long. If it was rip your throat out I'd agree.
(This music still sounds suspiciously Pirates of the Caribbean-y.)
Martha's got some idea about lightning rods. Pig!Lazlo's dying, and the other two are making a lightning conductor of some sort. Dramatic countdown to a rising choral invocation, and the Doctor drops his sonic screwdriver. He really should start carrying a spare around. So he starts prying off the panels with his care hands . . . cuts himself (?) . . . and then clings to the lightning rod and is electromacuted. By 'gamma radiation'. Which looks suspiciously like ordinary lightning. TV science. It's magic!
The pigslaves are dead! The Doctor has very spiky hair! And the Dalek humans are awake! Like zombies. Hee. Zombie Dalek humans. With New Yorker accents.
The plan is to assimilate human kind. How did the Daleks manage to make so many portable Dalek egg whisks of laser doom?
Why is Martha the Moron freaking out? She's a doctor in training! Treat him!
Montage time! People are walking. Nice music though.
Dalek Thay/Caan is now the leader of all Daleks. He's cool. He bitch slaps Diagonal Man. Metaphorically.
Hee! An allon-sy! And there's some stuff about the theatre. Can this be the finale? We could-a been anything that we wanted to be | And it's not too late to change | I've been delighted to give it some thought - see, it's practically the Diagonal Man's theme song! [They] could-a been the best at being Good Guys!
And the Daleks go to war! The egg whisk lasers look like tommy guns. Must be the only reason they're suddenly portable. For the mafia look. Hehe. Dalek mafia.
The Doctor sends out a signal to tell the Daleks where he is. It works very quickly. And then, for magical reasons, the Daleks are suddenly right behind the stage curtain with Diagonal Man on his knees like a dog. Obvious imagery is obvious.
Planet Earth will become New Skaro. And the Doctor bitches out the Daleks. Apparently, Diagonal Man is "the cleverest Dalek ever" in the eyes of the Doctor. In that he's not exactly a Dalek any more. He wants emotions, doesn't want believe in the inherent superiority of the Dalek race, and wants peace.
The Diagonal Dalek then "beg[s]" the Daleks to end the war, and lead them "out the darkness" is then EXTERMINATE!d
The Doctor is ballsy. Standing unarmed in front of the Daleks, begging to die. The human Daleks do not obey the Daleks. They then begin the question the Daleks. In terrible accents.
Okay. Time Lord DNA got all mixed up with Dalek DNA. Meaning humanity is a mix of Time Lord and Dalek stuff. Because these human Daleks are basically humans. And they EXTERMINATE the Dalek Daleks. So Dalek . . . Jast/Cann terminates the human Daleks.
In perfect Dalekosity. AKA: genocide! For gits and shiggles.
And we're back down to one Dalek. Who is still waiting in the Dalek - oh, it's Dalek Caan - basement for the Doctor to show up. Silly Dalek Caan.
The Doctor offers compassion and help to Dalek Caan. Who runs away. And then Pig!Lazlo basically drops dead in front of him.
Tallulah's voice is so squeaky. It makes this scene so narmy.
Ugh. I was right. He held on for so long because of the power of luuuurrrve. But the Doctor's got a genetic lab at his disposal, and he's determined to save one person.
It works.
So we have a half-pigman/human romance. And Tennessee Boy becomes the new Solomon. Why am I all Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle right now? And kissing would be very painful.
URGH! Martha clubs the Doctor around the head with "There's someone for everyone" and from his reaction it's obviously a ROSE! moment.

Preview thoughts: Old dude in a suit becomes Boris Johnson. The Doctor meets the family. There's a scorpion monster eating people. The Doctor looks fine in a tux. EXPLOSION! Intrigued.


Best Moment:
As much as I think it's very stupid and at cross-purposes with the normal motivations for the Doctor and Dalek kind, the discussions between the Doctor, Diagonal Man and the Daleks about creating human Daleks. As in, Daleks in human suits.
The Doctor has so many funny reactions, but they're not outrageously over the top.

Worst Moment:
Martha the Moron's "what about us?!" moment. As if she's never heard of a heroic sacrifice before. Moron.

Best Special Effect:
The human storage area. Looks large and impressive. Also, any moment with proper Daleks doing Dalek stuff.

Worst Special Effect:
The human Dalek. It's just stupid to look at, even though it's very well done. I realise that 'worst' under this category generally mean poorly done, incompetent or similar, and while this is good technically, it fails to convey anything other than ridiculousness. And this is our villain people.

Best Actor:
The Doctor or the guy playing the human Dalek. He makes it almost believable that a Dalek would honestly think and believe such things.

Worst Actor:
TALLULAH!

Number of Times Rose Is Mentioned:
One. Two if you count the end bit which can be interpreted as one.

Number of Times I Was Grossed Out and Distracted By the Tentacle Penises:
About sixty or so. Basically every time he was onscreen.

Number of Times I Felt Sorry For Americans Watching This Episode:
Lots. Talk about butchering accents. I cringed.

Thoughts overall?
Taking the two-parter as a whole, it's a lot more coherent and believable. I don't know why RTD's all about humanising the Daleks (see 'Dalek' and Dalek Sec), they're meant to be awesome because they're so inhuman. But the theme is still carried over nicely from season one to season three.
I still think it's implausible, but not as angrily as I was previously.
The special effects are mostly laughable, not because they're poorly done, but because the things made are stupid. Seriously: penis tentacle cyclops head with an exposed brain? Seriously.
This makes the monsters from 'The Sea Devils' look almost menacing by comparison!
Characterisation is consistent, with Tennant getting in several badass moments defying the Daleks to protect people; sadly, many of the New Yorkers' themselves were awful. They tried their best, but the accents and the parts don't allow for much. Martha is a moron. And she's crushing on Ten so hard I almost want Rose bac - I TAKE THAT BACK!
I'd rather have Donna Noble back. And Donna Noble was a grating idiot in that Christmas special! Too much Catherine Tate.
It's about an average episode of Doctor Who overall. And Dalek Caan is very much a sequel hook. I think I know what the season finale's going to be. So Daleks, promised Time Lords and the Doctor. And I don't think the Time Lords are gong to be happy the Doctor ended the Time War, destroying them all.
This is no longer vying for Worst Nu Who Episode Ever. But I can't say I'd want to watch it again. It's still along the liens of 'Fear Her' in that regard. I preferred the two-parter creating the AU!Cybermen more.

[Avaris]

Surprisingly relevent news, spoilered if anyone is deliberately avoiding all possible spoilers.

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Daleks to be given a rest. The news comes from the radio times, and unless Moffat is bluffing (which I doubt) the Daleks won't be in this series. Given the past problems with licencing, we may not see them for a while longer than that.

In the RT article, the Moff answers the 'grumbles of late over complexity'; "Well, you have to pay attention ... you can't watch it when you are doing the ironing. And you certainly can't watch it when you are tweeting. You have to sit down and focus, and a child audience certainly does that."

Scary? Confusing? Yes but I agree with him that this is a good thing for a family show, rather than talking down to the children.

[The Big Dice]

Unoriginality doesn't have to be all consuming to be there.

The 4th Doctor's evil robot stories had quite differant plots but he still had too many of them the the point that they were becoming stale.

You mean Robot, which was a Doctor Who reworking of King Kong? Or Robots of Death, which was a Doctor Who reworking of Ten Little Indians? Or Androids of Tara, which was a Doctor Who reworking of Prisoner of Zenda?

As for the Daleks, I do get the impression that Moffat doesn't like them. And they have been on screen a lot in the past few years. And then there was the PR disaster that came from Victory of the Daleks and the accompanying redesign. I found [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-13564255]this article[/quote] to be much more interesting and revealing.

[Thufir]

'Evolution of the Daleks' part 2/2 (Season Three, Episode Five)
Same format as before.

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Okay, I'm being harsh, I don't get the plan either; probably sneak into the Empire State Building and do some shenanigans.

Beautiful word. Shenanigans.

Oh, frick, there was an earlier bit in that quote I wanted - basically the thing with the lasering Hooverville. The idea of this two-parter was supposed to be that the Daleks were weakened due to there only being four of them, and I think the Doctor says something about the emergency temporal shift probably having burned up some circuits or some such and this is why they're hiding in the sewers.
But, the thing is, they show no actual indications of weakness. We're told they're weak, but as far as we can see, based on the attack on Hooverville, they seem to be every bit as dangerous as usual, probably enough to genocide the human race on their own. Failure at executing premise.

[And the Doctor is stunned again by DD's response. Me too. I'm not well read on Daleks, but, to paraphrase Python, don't they Daleks have an almost fanatical devotion to Davros?

Not all of them. Some were fanatically devoted to him, some weren't, because he was not a Dalek, and therfore he was inferior.
But they all agreed with him that the Dalek as he designed it was basically perfection (After all, he made them to think that way).

"Humans are the greatest survivors. We need that ability."

Having been rewatching Heroes recently, I'm now half-imagining the Daleks as a sort of interplanetary Sylar.
Though actually, I suppose the interplanetary Sylar would be more the Krillitanes, with their taking aspects of their fallen enemies. All the more reason they should be brought back.

Re: Daleks not returning, I think it's a pretty good idea, and Steven Moffat makes a very valid point regarding their (Though he doesn't use the exact phrase, it's basically what he means) villain decay.
Of course, the question arises as to when we will see them again, because they are iconic Who monsters and shouldn't be completely abandoned, but we can certainly do without them for a while.

[Kato]

Oh my goodness... I'm not around for a week and I'm not only missing pages worth of discussion but also a new feature in the thread: Old episode recaps (time to read = time to watch)

Uhm... well, just a few words on the last episode... I guess no more real spoilers so...
Too many doppelgangers are confusing (Well, Jen confused me, Doctor... I guess it was to be expected of him. But Smith did a nice job there. Rory was useful! Well, kind of... he TRIED to! Amy on the other hand... it wasn't her best episode.
And of course we end with a big cliffhanger but at least I guess we know what's going on there or has been going on. Until Moff will smack us over the head with the truth and everything we thought was true will turn out be wrong. So... business as usual, I guess.

[factotum]

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But, the thing is, they show no actual indications of weakness. We're told they're weak, but as far as we can see, based on the attack on Hooverville, they seem to be every bit as dangerous as usual

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Don't forget the following little exchange between Doctor #9 and the guy in charge of the facility containing the Dalek in "Dalek":
Doctor: What's the nearest town?
Henry van Statten: Salt Lake City.
Doctor: Population?
HVS: One million.
Doctor: All dead.

So Ecclestone's Doctor was quite convinced that a single Dalek would have little difficulty destroying a city of a million people--yet it took three Daleks to take on a small shanty town like Hooverville? Definitely weaker, I think! Not to mention what that single Dalek managed to do against a large number of well-trained and well-equipped troops.

[Flame of Anor]

Spoiler

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Don't forget the following little exchange between Doctor #9 and the guy in charge of the facility containing the Dalek in "Dalek":
Doctor: What's the nearest town?
Henry van Statten: Salt Lake City.
Doctor: Population?
HVS: One million.
Doctor: All dead.

So Ecclestone's Doctor was quite convinced that a single Dalek would have little difficulty destroying a city of a million people--yet it took three Daleks to take on a small shanty town like Hooverville? Definitely weaker, I think! Not to mention what that single Dalek managed to do against a large number of well-trained and well-equipped troops.

Spoiler

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I haven't seen that New York episode recently, but it was not my impression that they really needed three Daleks to take on the shantytown, they just happened to be there.

[Thufir]

Spoiler

Show

Don't forget the following little exchange between Doctor #9 and the guy in charge of the facility containing the Dalek in "Dalek":
Doctor: What's the nearest town?
Henry van Statten: Salt Lake City.
Doctor: Population?
HVS: One million.
Doctor: All dead.

So Eccleston's Doctor was quite convinced that a single Dalek would have little difficulty destroying a city of a million people--yet it took three Daleks to take on a small shanty town like Hooverville? Definitely weaker, I think! Not to mention what that single Dalek managed to do against a large number of well-trained and well-equipped troops.

Spoiler

Show

I haven't seen that New York episode recently, but it was not my impression that they really needed three Daleks to take on the shantytown, they just happened to be there.

Yeah, that. There was nothing those people could actually do to defend themselves, they only all 3 went presumably because it'd be more efficient that way.

[The Big Dice]

Yeah, that. There was nothing those people could actually do to defend themselves, they only all 3 went presumably because it'd be more efficient that way.

I thought there was only two there. One stayed at base to keep tabs on Dalek/human Sec. I thought Thay and Jast were there just because Daleks like to exterminate things and they hadn't got to flex their pseudopods for a while.

[Thufir]

Either way, my point still stands. They didn't actually need more than one.