Doctor Who (again) [SPOILERS]

[Closet_Skeleton]

In the future, 'archaelogist' comes to mean 'firty gunslinger'.

[SuperPanda]

'Family of Blood' Part 2/2 (Season Three, Episode Nine)
Same format as before.

First off, I'd like to say: Thank you, so very much. Reading these has allowed me to go back through my own memories of watching the series for the first time and its helping me remember why, for all its faults, I still love Season 3 so much of NuWho. Strangely its also making me very nostalgic for Tennant.

I say strangely because when I watch Matt Smith's doctor I love his antics more of the time and feel nostalgic for an appearance by 9. 9 had a smile that spoke volumes, 10's run had a spirit of good fun about it, but 11 seems to get by on just being odd.

Also, to go back to my previous comments on feeling that Martha gets a bad wrap: when reading through your posts it helps me remember that I really disliked Martha at the start too. She was fun in Smith and Jones, but her relationship with 10 put me off. Albeit for me the big issue was how much of a jerky-jerkface 10 was being about the whole thing. One reason I suspected at the time only to have it confirmed in Season 4, so don't read if you don't want to know.

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When talking about Martha he makes a point of saying that she fancied him and it is very clear that he enjoyed her fancying him. Of course Donna shooting him down right away is one of the fun things about Donna and the Doctor's relationship.

Since I came into the show with 9 and have since gone back to see a random serial from 6, the first three Episodes of the Daleks (with 1), and the movie with 8 - I get the sense that the Doctor might be arrogant and selfish and even downright scary at times; but when the chips are down he's still merciful and kind. I probably am one of the few who didn't mind Tennant's tendency to appologize for what he is about to do, I thought it embodied the character well while being a step darker than 9.

9 would pose and threaten and growl, but he was bluffing. "Who Are You DocTor? CowArd or KiLLer?' "Coward, anyday."

10 is cold, he doesn't posture, he often doesn't show his hand until its time to use it. Like he said in the Christmas Invasion, "No second chances, I'm that kind of man."

11 is arrogant and passionate and volatile. For me his "Rises higher" moment was a pretty big fall. He didn't diffuse the situation, he didn't save lives, he escalated a war and got people to kill each other / killed (Cybermen) just to prove a point - the point being "Don't mess with me, I'm scary."

11 in his high points - The Almost people with his ganger - is wonderful and fun and definately the Doctor. 11 in his "dark" or "angry" points makes me wonder if we are heading for an episode where the Doctor is the antagonist figure and the companions need to help *Insert traditionally sociopathic master-mind here* stop him before he goes to far.


So, in short: Thank you for reminding me why I loved this show so much. While the recent ones have been amazing and visually stellar, they've just been lacking something. Season 5 was wonderful and while each episode in season 6 has been good it just hasn't felt all that nice.

A lot of the plot hooks and "surprises" haven't felt all that "Surprising" (The only ones that caught be off guard so far were

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Flesh Amy, delayed telephone to the son, and using the moon landing.

I guess the nature of the monster in Curse of the Black Spot counts, but I had sort of tuned out the episode by that point and was just hunting for "Plot!" moments.

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Speaking of which, we never see "the flesh" bleed and every time we've seen it injured so far its dissolved back into goop.

And while I'm on that track, between Curse of the Black Spot and The Doctor's Wife, we have two different episodes with Flesh Amy leaving this universe entirely. Having a signal which follows them in time and space is one thing and pretty easily explained, but how are they sending and receiving signals through the void or into parallel universes?

[Androgeus]

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Speaking of which, we never see "the flesh" bleed and every time we've seen it injured so far its dissolved back into goop.

And while I'm on that track, between Curse of the Black Spot and The Doctor's Wife, we have two different episodes with Flesh Amy leaving this universe entirely. Having a signal which follows them in time and space is one thing and pretty easily explained, but how are they sending and receiving signals through the void or into parallel universes?

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Flesh Amy bleeds in Curse of the Black Spot when they all prick themselves to get the Doctor Siren Hologram to take them aboard the ship.

Not sure on the out of universe bits, it was able to broadcast into the tardis as well, perhaps the tardis has been tampered with?

[Kato]

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Speaking of which, we never see "the flesh" bleed and every time we've seen it injured so far its dissolved back into goop.

And while I'm on that track, between Curse of the Black Spot and The Doctor's Wife, we have two different episodes with Flesh Amy leaving this universe entirely. Having a signal which follows them in time and space is one thing and pretty easily explained, but how are they sending and receiving signals through the void or into parallel universes?

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Yeah, as Androgeus said mostly.
Also, though the Flesh doesn't bleed fake!Jen showed her leg injury which looked pretty nasty. So, yeah, they bleed, definitely.

Hm... Tardis is probably the only explanation on how to keep a steady signal with Amy. How it works when Amy and the Tardis are apart, like it happened in CotBS I don't know either. Maybe trans.universe communication isn't that hard. The pirated also came back from the other universe thouch I guess the Doctor lend them a hand with that.
(And for the sake of it: Please, nobody start discussing there can't be two different universes if they interact with each other since it's against the definition of a universe, please)

[Niezck]

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I think we can assume that the Flesh used to create Amy and the baby is a lot more advanced. When he goes back to find the signal the Flesh uses, in the episode The Rebel Flesh, they're only just discovering that Flesh can be sentient and from what I remember they're only using it in secret/have only just started using it. It's implied that he knows the Flesh is going to be much more than just a tool later on which therefore implies this is only the very beginning of the Flesh.

Yet, to get the ability to send the signal into the TARDIS and so on implies that they have much more advanced Flesh-related technology.

[Cog]

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Not sure on the out of universe bits, it was able to broadcast into the tardis as well, perhaps the tardis has been tampered with?

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We've already had signals getting into the TARDIS - somebody hijacked it while the Doctor was being shoved into the Pandorica. The who and how of that were never resolved, and the same faction might be who got the Flesh signal in as well.

[Drolyt]

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We've already had signals getting into the TARDIS - somebody hijacked it while the Doctor was being shoved into the Pandorica. The who and how of that were never resolved, and the same faction might be who got the Flesh signal in as well.

I doubt it. The people who switched Amy are scared to death of The Doctor, and if they could mess with the TARDIS I doubt they would be.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Wait a second - does that page say that he's rumored to play Brother of Mine again in a September episode? That would be awesome.

WHY ISN'T IT SEPTEMBER YET

I didn't want to mention the rumour in the write up because it was just a rumour, and I don't want to get my hopes up. I mean Baines is seven types of wonderful, and if he does show up I will have a very happy face on.

Aw man, I'd have loved a genuine surprised reaction... well, too bad I guess. (Nice review anyway)

If it helps, I've got a lot of Marble Hornets in my head, and I've not seen the episode in over a year.

He'll be back? And he's Viserys?!? Wow! I really liked that actor, but I didn't even notice it was the same guy!

He might be back. If he is, there will be rejoicing, because Baines was amazing.

Same here. I liked both Viserys and Blaine. I mean, that guy managed to sell Viserys to me as interesting, who I thought wasn't all that great a character in the books. (Or at least, how I remember the books from years ago).
But now that I've heard it... damn. I mean, the eyes. Of course, the eyes.

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Whoa.
o.O
Those freaky eyes are still there. Never have I been so glad that a friend's recording all of Game of Thrones so I can watch it.

[Eldan]

He doesn't get that many scenes, sadly. But those he's in, he absolutely rocks. I'd put him down as one of the most memorable actors in the series. Of course, most of his scenes also have Mormont in them, who is much less hammy, but also damn good.

Actually, casting for the entire series is fantastic. I mean, they have Boromir as Ned Stark and Lord Vetinari as Tywin Lannister.

[TheArsenal]

Ive geberaly wanted to ask, whats the doctors view on killing?

[Cog]

I doubt it. The people who switched Amy are scared to death of The Doctor, and if they could mess with the TARDIS I doubt they would be.

Which is why I did not name them as the faction.

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The Silence quite likely manipulated the different groups that joined against the Doctor to arrange the Pandorica. It's quite possible they've manipulated the group at Demons Run too, and they might even be behind the whole church. Note that they have a "papal mainframe" or something like that - ruled by computer because the Silence dare not go to Earth in person anymore?

[Kobold-Bard]

Ive geberaly wanted to ask, whats the doctors view on killing?

Which Doctor? And killing who? Have they ever attacked the Time Lords or humanity?

[TheArsenal]

Which Doctor? And killing who? Have they ever attacked the Time Lords or humanity?

Well The Doctor in general and killing his enemies.

[The_Admiral]

First off, I'd like to say: Thank you, so very much. Reading these has allowed me to go back through my own memories of watching the series for the first time and its helping me remember why, for all its faults, I still love Season 3 so much of NuWho. Strangely its also making me very nostalgic for Tennant.

I say strangely because when I watch Matt Smith's doctor I love his antics more of the time and feel nostalgic for an appearance by 9. 9 had a smile that spoke volumes, 10's run had a spirit of good fun about it, but 11 seems to get by on just being odd.

Also, to go back to my previous comments on feeling that Martha gets a bad wrap: when reading through your posts it helps me remember that I really disliked Martha at the start too. She was fun in Smith and Jones, but her relationship with 10 put me off. Albeit for me the big issue was how much of a jerky-jerkface 10 was being about the whole thing. One reason I suspected at the time only to have it confirmed in Season 4, so don't read if you don't want to know.

Spoiler

Show

When talking about Martha he makes a point of saying that she fancied him and it is very clear that he enjoyed her fancying him. Of course Donna shooting him down right away is one of the fun things about Donna and the Doctor's relationship.

Since I came into the show with 9 and have since gone back to see a random serial from 6, the first three Episodes of the Daleks (with 1), and the movie with 8 - I get the sense that the Doctor might be arrogant and selfish and even downright scary at times; but when the chips are down he's still merciful and kind. I probably am one of the few who didn't mind Tennant's tendency to appologize for what he is about to do, I thought it embodied the character well while being a step darker than 9.

9 would pose and threaten and growl, but he was bluffing. "Who Are You DocTor? CowArd or KiLLer?' "Coward, anyday."

10 is cold, he doesn't posture, he often doesn't show his hand until its time to use it. Like he said in the Christmas Invasion, "No second chances, I'm that kind of man."

11 is arrogant and passionate and volatile. For me his "Rises higher" moment was a pretty big fall. He didn't diffuse the situation, he didn't save lives, he escalated a war and got people to kill each other / killed (Cybermen) just to prove a point - the point being "Don't mess with me, I'm scary."

11 in his high points - The Almost people with his ganger - is wonderful and fun and definately the Doctor. 11 in his "dark" or "angry" points makes me wonder if we are heading for an episode where the Doctor is the antagonist figure and the companions need to help *Insert traditionally sociopathic master-mind here* stop him before he goes to far.


So, in short: Thank you for reminding me why I loved this show so much. While the recent ones have been amazing and visually stellar, they've just been lacking something. Season 5 was wonderful and while each episode in season 6 has been good it just hasn't felt all that nice.

A lot of the plot hooks and "surprises" haven't felt all that "Surprising" (The only ones that caught be off guard so far were

Spoiler

Show

Flesh Amy, delayed telephone to the son, and using the moon landing.

I guess the nature of the monster in Curse of the Black Spot counts, but I had sort of tuned out the episode by that point and was just hunting for "Plot!" moments.

Spoiler

Show

Speaking of which, we never see "the flesh" bleed and every time we've seen it injured so far its dissolved back into goop.

And while I'm on that track, between Curse of the Black Spot and The Doctor's Wife, we have two different episodes with Flesh Amy leaving this universe entirely. Having a signal which follows them in time and space is one thing and pretty easily explained, but how are they sending and receiving signals through the void or into parallel universes?

Must stop fanfiction idea can't write arggh!!

[Thufir]

I've generally wanted to ask, what's the Doctor's view on killing?

Complicated.

[Androgeus]

The beeb have commissioned another 14 episodes with Matt Smith as the Doctor -> sauces

[Kobold-Bard]

Well The Doctor in general and killing his enemies.

Depends on the Doctor.

Some dislike guns, some are perfectly comfortable using them. Some abhor violence, I've seen a video of the 4th Doctor just snapping a guy's neck and carrying on.

Enemies are subjective too, depending on how they're acting at a given moment. He'll negotiate with Daleks & kill Time Lords. All depends on how he feels about them & whether they're being mean about Humans; since he loves them so.

[TheArsenal]

Seams reasonable, just the video of the 10th Doctor berating some head govourner about killing an escaping (Hostile) alien species about how MAN is EVIL!!!!!!!

Look, before you jump in and save the day about.....1-10 people die? People with families, friends, all devastated about thier deaths. And your not there to rescue everybody every time. What if the aliens bring more friends next time huh Mr high and mighty?

Generaly my stance is "Give them a chance, then blast thier ass off. And do not negotiate with Daleks (Oh sure, imbue humans with the xenophobia and hatred of the Daleks, top notch)"

On a side not does anybody want an older, and more calm companion next? Because Rose and Martha realy got on my nerves. Like it may sound silly, but can anybody imagin the woman who was possesed by Mother of mine as a companion? Her emotions seem so much more....genuine. Or maybe im just asking for better actors.

But at least Rory and amy have been better for the past while.

[Drolyt]

The Doctor tries to be the good guy. This tends to jump around from abhorring violence of any sort to being willing to commit genocide for the greater good, depending on the writer, and to a lesser degree depending on The Doctor.

[Androgeus]

some head govourner

you mean Harriet Jones, MP for Flydale North/Prime Minster/Former Prime minister?

[Thufir]

you mean Harriet Jones, MP for Flydale North/Prime Minster/Former Prime minister?

Yes, we know who she is.

[TheArsenal]

Oh. Got it.

[SuperPanda]

On flesh and bleeding:

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Yes, I get that the evidence we have of the flesh bleeding comes from Curse of the Black Spot, I was more commenting on the fact that we don't see any evidence outside of that episode that "flesh" cells which are detached from the host body survive or hold their form.

On the whole though, I think the fact that the signal can follow them in the TARDIS and into other universes is a much bigger one.

On the Doctor and killing: I came into the show in NuWho and the convention since 2005 seems to be that the Doctor doesn't want to kill and generally feels that if there is another way it is always preferable. Now, it must be said that what the Doctor considers killing and what we consider killing can be very different.

Cybermen

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Season 2, alternate reality Cybermen: He deactivates the emotion and feeling inhibitors allowing the cybermen to see and feel who and what they are. This kills them. In the Doctor's eyes though they died when they became Cybermen and he's giving them back their lives (brief and painful as they are) and while he doesn't feel good about it he shows sympathy only because it hurts them. He does the a similar thing in season 4.5 "The Next Doctor" - both of these are the 10th Doctor.

Daleks

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Season 1, 9 tries to straight up kill/murder a Dalek prisoner that the humans had been torturing. He's fresh from war and the Dalek's were his enemy.

Season 2 - The Doctor shows no qualms or pity about casting the Dalek's into the void which will probably kill them.

Season 3 - The Doctor is willing to help one Dalek with a plan to create a Dalek hybrid race which eliminates the essence of the Dalek.

Season 4 - Doctor is heart broken to see how quickly his companions turn to violence and heroic sacrifices. When something happens and all of the Daleks are killed (again) he's angry and upset at the genocide despite the enemy being Daleks.

Season 5 - More than happy to be violent and would probably enjoy seeing Dalek's killed, the Dalek's however expect that the Doctor and any companion of his would show mercy if it was asked of them. They are incorrect.

Season 6 - Despite being one of the few years where the Dalek's have A a good reason and a plot connection to come back with, it has been announced that they are entering either retirement or hibernation to recover from villain decay.

Timelords

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Time War - it is revealed that the when the Time Lords became villains through the long Time War the Doctor was forced to stop them as he does other forces. He killed them all, not because he wanted to but because there was nothing else he could do. He still feels guilty for it through season 4.5 but seems to be cocky about it in season 6.

Season 3 - he's absolutely against it even with the Timelord in question being one of his personal arch enemies and a murderous psychopath.

Season 4.5 - While he doesn't kill, he does sort of send them all to their doom.

All in all I think NuWho wise: 9 will kill only when he has no other choice (The gelf, The Autons, the giant blob thing with a mouth. Cassandra) though he takes no relish in it. Everything has its time, and everybody dies. But in both his hearts of hearts he yearns for a day when everybody lives.

10 will offer another way but he won't reveal his hand. He'll offer the enemy a chance to save itself (only the Vashtan Errada took him up on it though). If they don't save themselves they will die, or worse: get exactly what they wanted (Family of Blood).

11 Really seems to depend on the episode. In some episodes he gets testy about guns and fighting (Hungry Earth, Cold Blood, Beast Below, The Rebel Flesh) in others he seems to almost revel in the pain and misery his enemies are about to suffer because they picked on the wrong person,i.e. him. (Moon day, Pandorica Opens, A Good Man Goes to Way, The Doctor's Wife, Season 5 weeping Angel's two parter)

[Calemyr]

One thing about the bleeding flesh:

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When the boss kills the ganger of Buzzer, the Doctor proclaims not only that the blast stopped his heart, but that a ganger had a heart. Hearts don't work without blood.

As for the Doctor, he doesn't want to kill, he never wants to kill. But he will, if it is the only way to protect what he cares about, and is frequently forced to do so. Sometimes he does so reluctantly, apologizing profusely as he does it, but when he gets angry, well and truly angry, he seems to take pleasure in grinding his enemies into the dirt both through intimidation and creative violence. The problem is that he seems to get angrier faster with every regeneration

But he was never in it for the violence, he's in it for the wonders of the universe and would on the whole be happier touring a side street bazaar on the third homeworld of the Rendam Empire than fighting for his life. The wonders of the universe, however, are often as terrible as they are wonderful, and the Doctor rarely backs down from a challenge. Unfortunately, he tends to be so preoccupied with winning (often for good reasons - protecting life and all) that he doesn't consider the ramifications of his victories - even when he regrets killing, he never stops to think that it will ever become and issue later. As such, he's developed a reputation that has garnered the fear of peoples and races that have only ever heard of his name.

As for the Sycorax and Harriet Jones (former Prime Minister), the Doctor's reaction is more that she ordered an attack on a retreating enemy. Unless they're an extremely deadly threat, and often even then, the Doctor will not attack an enemy that has decided to retreat. If they stay they die, if they run they live - it's as simple as that in the Doctor's mind. For the most part, anyway.

[The Big Dice]

On the Doctor and killing: I came into the show in NuWho and the convention since 2005 seems to be that the Doctor doesn't want to kill and generally feels that if there is another way it is always preferable. Now, it must be said that what the Doctor considers killing and what we consider killing can be very different.

Ever since the show started, the Doctor has been the one heroic character that more or less consistently uses brains over brawn to solve problems. He will try every other option that he can rather than killing, but if he has to kill to preserve others, he'll do it. Usually reluctantly and often with deep remorse after it.

Doctor Who and the Silurians is the classic example of this, pitting the Doctor's desire for peace and harmony against the Brigadier's desire to protect his country by military means. With the Brigadier taking action behind the Doctor's back, even after the Doctor cured the plague the Silurians released and after he negotiated a peace deal.

In recent years, the Doctor has become more willing to stop things permanently. As he said to Brother Lassar, he used to have so much mercy when he was younger. But now, if he doesn't like it, it stops. And in many ways, that conversation by the side of a high school swimming pool is what set the Doctor's feet on the path to being the figure of universal terror he has become over the past couple of seasons.

His earlier selves would be very disappointed with him if they ever meet him. What happened to the man who couldn't destroy the Daleks before they even left the cloning chamber they were created in? Or who just wanted to go to Metebelis 3?

[TheArsenal]

If they stay they die, if they run they live - it's as simple as that in the Doctor's mind. For the most part, anyway.

Time Lords are idiots. Yeah, the Scorax will never return to kill more innocent humans. Its more complex than "I come and save day!" its "People die ireversable painful deaths, I come, more people die, I save day! Villian comes back and kills humans again".

What happened to the man who couldn't destroy the Daleks before they even left the cloning chamber they were created in?

His brain cells reactivated. Seriously, that was like Picard sparing a race that kills by the planetload just because it can (Not because it needs it for survival).

[BRC]

Can I just say, I loved "A good man goes to war". But I have some thoughts

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The Doctor's "Troops" were awesome, especially Victorian Silurian Samurai and her maid/backup. Also the Pirates were used especially well.


However, much hubbaloo was made about the doctor "Falling farther than he has ever fallen", which it really wasn't. The unusual thing he did was gather allies, rather than just using his own ingenuity. He ended up taking the station with very little violence. He spread some confusion, his allies teleported in, and the marines dropped their weapons. The fighting that occurred was a result of the Headless Monks springing their trap, and I don't consider that his fault. every decision he made was with the intent of rescuing Amy with minimal bloodshed.

If anything, his "Darkest Hour" was when he blew up the cyberfleets, and that was totally glossed over.
Yes he lost the Baby, but he knows it's going to be okay. Yes some people died, but that has happened plenty of times before (Remember the first appearance of the Anglican Marines,all of them got eaten by Angels or erased from time).
If anything, the only new thing that happened was that he went in with a plan to rescue his companion, rather than just grabbing whatever he had on hand and rushing in blindly.


That aside, the episode was Awesome. I liked how the Sontaran Nurse reffered to rory as "Centurion".

Also, as for the big reveal, if you think about it, this means that Amy and Rory have spent hours watching their best friend flirt with their daughter.

[Aotrs Commander]

Just caught up with the last couple of episodes (I was away at the weekend).

And THAT WAS AWESOME!!!

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I nearly wet myself laughing at Rory's utter awesome entrance, because, for nearly a full minute, I fell into "it's the Doctor Amy's talking about not Rory" despite them using that trick several times already. So. Cooool!

Plus, words cannot describe how badass Rory was, standing in front of those exploding Cyberships and threatening the Cybermen. That has to be one of the greatest moments of the series, up there with "Basically? Run." and Dalaks vrs Cybermen.

I had my suspicions about River for some time, and I thought it would be cool, so I was well chuffed to see that pan out. (Though, stupid, how could I miss "Melody Pond", I really need my skull examining...)

Roll on September!

[Triscuitable]

9 would pose and threaten and growl, but he was bluffing. "Who Are You DocTor? CowArd or KiLLer?' "Coward, anyday."

And yet he was still perfectly un-happy to wipe out an entire Dalek fleet to save Rose. Basically, "There's not a little boy on this planet that wouldn't tear the world apart to save his mummy. And this little boy can." Put Rose in the slot of "mummy" and Nine in the "little boy" slot, and there you go.

He also was not hesitating to blow a Dalek to bits with that super-turbo-hyper-charged-ion-cannon-thing. That is, until Rose stopped him.

[Flame of Anor]

Ive geberaly wanted to ask, whats the doctors view on killing?

Doesn't kill when he can help it, but nothing can save you if he decides otherwise.