Doctor Who (again) [SPOILERS]

[Androgeus]

As I recall, he travelled in time to do that, which doesn't seem much of a DEM considering it's an established ability he's always had. Recreating the entire universe (including the Doctor himself) from Amy's memories was utterly ridiculous, though, I'll grant you that much.

It's more the paradoxical nature of the release that's the problem with that one, it does make quite a bit of "The Pandorica Opens" build up a waste. Don't think it is as much a deus ex machina as Jesus Doc though.

[SuperPanda]

I must be the only one who thought it that the "DEM" in season 3 was both fun and funny for literally being God form the Machine, but not being Deus ex Machina in the literary way since the whole thing was established pretty well and built up to pretty well.

I mean, there is a reason we were all doing a Tennant impression at the screen going "What? What?" at that point. We knew what was happening even before it was explained.

Similarly I loved "Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue." I thought that was a delicious touch on Moffat's part.

My complaints on season 3 is that it had to be so darn corny. Who thrives on a delicious balance of ham, cheese, and rye. Now I'm hungry. It doesn't work as well with cornbread. Still, I was pretty full from all the extra Ham (Sims) and didn't mind a little good cheese (tennant, barrowman, bunny-face).

My complaint with season 5's finale was the terrible terrible tease Moffat did with the phone call. Its been established that a lot of the doctor's adventures happen when we're not around to see them, but that one felt like such a great set-up for the next episode only to have it happen off screen. To make it worse, that adventure was apparently roughly the same time River Song was conceived which means it could have been used to allude to things which are "private and human" and which people "don't put up signs on the door" for.

So my complaints with RTD tended to be that he showed too much which was unnecessary instead of opting for the elegance of what he already had; while for Moffat its that he withholds too much which is relevant and thus confuses the elegance that could have been.

These complaints on both sides are very small because all told I love them both and I love who all together.

[chiasaur11]

As I recall, he travelled in time to do that, which doesn't seem much of a DEM considering it's an established ability he's always had. Recreating the entire universe (including the Doctor himself) from Amy's memories was utterly ridiculous, though, I'll grant you that much.

Not just Amy's memories.

Also all the air molecules stored in the Pandorica on the whole hologram principle thing (Can't remember the term, but it's popped up other places. Rather wibbly concept, terribly complex to wrap your head around fully.). The idea of any atom of the universe being able to provide, if properly viewed, the whole history of the universe.

Amy just remembered the Doctor back, causing a last little blip in the universe allowing him to slip back through due to long term exposure to extra-universal energies.

All set up reasonably well with the bit after Rory dies. (The first time)

[Kato]

Hm... no, no, I'd say both the Doctor's escape and his return from basically none-existence were just as big DEM as Jesus!Doctor. But they still worked better.

The escape from the Pandorica was a stable time loop in a pretty ridiculous way... And being regenerated by (mostly) memory wasn't much better either, except they sat it up a bit. But Eleven made it work. Nobody dares question him when he pops out of nowhere with a fez and a broom (I think) and hands you a screw driver telling you to save him. And the 'something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue' was hilarious, in my opinion. Such a nice use of the tradition.
It wasn't any better than Jesus in terms of 'made more sense' or anything but it worked better in context I think. Or at least that's how I feel and since it seems most people (here) agree for one reason or another that Big Bang was much better than Jesus!Doctor there seems to be some reason behind it.

[chiasaur11]

Hm... no, no, I'd say both the Doctor's escape and his return from basically none-existence were just as big DEM as Jesus!Doctor. But they still worked better.

The escape from the Pandorica was a stable time loop in a pretty ridiculous way... And being regenerated by (mostly) memory wasn't much better either, except they sat it up a bit. But Eleven made it work. Nobody dares question him when he pops out of nowhere with a fez and a broom (I think) and hands you a screw driver telling you to save him. And the 'something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue' was hilarious, in my opinion. Such a nice use of the tradition.
It wasn't any better than Jesus in terms of 'made more sense' or anything but it worked better in context I think. Or at least that's how I feel and since it seems most people (here) agree for one reason or another that Big Bang was much better than Jesus!Doctor there seems to be some reason behind it.

Probably because it works more obviously with the themes of the series.

The Doctor is a crazy old dude with a time machine shaped like a box who keeps the universe from exploding. So if he sets up some crazy stuff with time travel, a box, and explosions, well hey! Right with the standard MO.

Having him be Jesus on the other hand, is focusing on an even smaller subset that is less unique to the series (He comes from outside to save humanity, and sometimes dies and gets better in the attempt, traits shared with Superman and we all groaned when Superman Returns came out just as loud) while ignoring all the differences and whistling loudly (The Doctor is kind of a jerk a lot of the time, the Doctor usually screws up badly enough to get some to most of the people present brutally killed, the Doctor is a vengeful kind of guy when cross). It's also too bang-on obvious.

What's more, impossible paradoxes are a staple of some of the best science fiction (e.g. All You Zombies and By His Bootstraps), while glowing fairy dust powers tend to lead to groaning even when well done.

[Kato]

What's more, impossible paradoxes are a staple of some of the best science fiction (e.g. All You Zombies and By His Bootstraps), while glowing fairy dust powers tend to lead to groaning even when well done.

Oh my god, don't mention that story... it still makes me feel ill. (not because it's bad but... weirdest)

Yeah, that's something else... the Doctor... or at least season 3 Ten never was so self-indulging he'd enjoy getting prayed to by all of humanity. Or at least he didn't seem so. He wasn't shy or anything but... not that kind of person who'd want to be the messiah.

[Reverent-One]

Yeah, that's something else... the Doctor... or at least season 3 Ten never was so self-indulging he'd enjoy getting prayed to by all of humanity. Or at least he didn't seem so. He wasn't shy or anything but... not that kind of person who'd want to be the messiah.

What so self-indulging about needing a bunch of people to send you power so that you're not totally useless? I just don't get why people call that moment as "Jesus!Doctor", whatever messianic traits the doctor has, they come from scenes other than that one. A "clap your hands if you believe" scene like that raises parallels with Tinkerbell, not Jesus (and the fairy dust just enhances that).

[Kato]

What so self-indulging about needing a bunch of people to send you power so that you're not totally useless? I just don't get why people call that moment as "Jesus!Doctor", whatever messianic traits the doctor has, they come from scenes other than that one. A "clap your hands if you believe" scene like that raises parallels with Tinkerbell, not Jesus (and the fairy dust just enhances that).

It's got both. Martha traveled the world telling people how often he saved them and how he is the only one who can save them again (not sure if sh said the latter part but she clearly meant it) There's NOONE else who can stop the master so you nned to believe in the Doctor. The 'I forgive you scene' (which I didn't really mind) didn't help either. He is pretty clearly the pictured savior of mankind, I think.

[The Big Dice]

The escape from the Pandorica was a stable time loop in a pretty ridiculous way... And being regenerated by (mostly) memory wasn't much better either, except they sat it up a bit. But Eleven made it work.

I think there's a little confusion in terms and events here. First, a time loop is literally a loop in time, passing through the same points in time and space repeatedly. Think Max Headroom, those little jiggles in The Lodger and other instances of time repeating itself. A stable time loop is like a deja vu that never ends.

Second, I'm not talking about the end of The Big Bang. I'm talking about the beginning. The Doctor escaped from being put in the Pandorica by giving Rory his sonic screwdriver. Except to do that, he would have had to have escaped from the Pandorica. He literally could not have got out to give Rory the means of getting him out, because to do that e would already have to be out of it.

As Terry Pratchett recently said, the Matt Smith better not drop his sonic screwdriver. Because if he does, all he has left is deus ex machina to get him out of trouble.

[Kato]

I think there's a little confusion in terms and events here. First, a time loop is literally a loop in time, passing through the same points in time and space repeatedly. Think Max Headroom, those little jiggles in The Lodger and other instances of time repeating itself. A stable time loop is like a deja vu that never ends.

Second, I'm not talking about the end of The Big Bang. I'm talking about the beginning. The Doctor escaped from being put in the Pandorica by giving Rory his sonic screwdriver. Except to do that, he would have had to have escaped from the Pandorica. He literally could not have got out to give Rory the means of getting him out, because to do that e would already have to be out of it.

As Terry Pratchett recently said, the Matt Smith better not drop his sonic screwdriver. Because if he does, all he has left is deus ex machina to get him out of trouble.

Hu? But then the term is used wrongly on many occasions. I was referring to the first event (as well as the end of Big Bang but not regarding the stable time loop) the Doctor's escape which as you described could only happen because future!Doctor was able to escape from the Pandorica to later go back and give Rory his screw driver. I just did a quick search on it but I can find find refers to a stable time loop as such an event. A (mere) time loop of course is a deja vu like repetition of events like... a Groundhog Day loop (in trope terms). But it seems to be the definition of a stable time loop quite differs from this.


Hehe, well, I guess Pratchett's right there... but it's a bit unjustified, he has also used his smarts to trick his enemies, like in Doctor's Wife, or just depended on luck, like in Black Spot. I won't say Pratchett's lying but... exaggerated in a humorous way, as he tends to do often in his works. The other Doctor's weren't that much worse in using the screwdriver instead of carrying around a whole toolbox, were they?

[Androgeus]

Hu? But then the term is used wrongly on many occasions. I was referring to the first event (as well as the end of Big Bang but not regarding the stable time loop) the Doctor's escape which as you described could only happen because future!Doctor was able to escape from the Pandorica to later go back and give Rory his screw driver. I just did a quick search on it but I can find find refers to a stable time loop as such an event. A (mere) time loop of course is a deja vu like repetition of events like... a Groundhog Day loop (in trope terms). But it seems to be the definition of a stable time loop quite differs from this.

The escape from the pandorica is a bootstrap paradox, and just thinking about it now, Moffat really likes this one (Blink, Time Crash, Silence in the library, Big Bang and Time & Space (although time and space can be explaned by him hitting the wrong button and then going back and saying not that one until he hits the right one))

The other Doctor's weren't that much worse in using the screwdriver instead of carrying around a whole toolbox, were they?

I think that the 5th, 6th and 7th Doc didn't use a screwdriver, and I think it has increased in functionality quite a bit since the return.

[Mauve Shirt]

It comes down to preference. I thought the use of time loops (or Bootstrap Paradoxes or whatever) at the end of last season was hilarious. Much less in-your-face than Tinkerbell Jesus, much more silly. Equally ridiculous. I just don't like that much Jesus in my Doctor Who, no matter how foreshadowed or "possible" it is. It was worse than even the 7th Harry Potter book, which was a lot of Jesus.
I may be a little biased by my dislike of Tennant. But I don't think I'd tolerate that amount of Jesus from Matt or Eccleston either.

[Kato]

The escape from the pandorica is a bootstrap paradox, and just thinking about it now, Moffat really likes this one (Blink, Time Crash, Silence in the library, Big Bang and Time & Space (although time and space can be explaned by him hitting the wrong button and then going back and saying not that one until he hits the right one))

Hu... it seems I spend too much time on a certain page. I thought the term was more common to describe the given paradox. Okay, then I'll try to stick to bootstrap paradox in the future.
And yeah, Moffat likes it and I guess your opinion can differ whether you like it but I like his usage of it most of the time. (Also, that wasn't really a bootstrap but we got double Karen for a moment thanks to his paradoxes. Yay)

[SuperPanda]

I won't say Pratchett's lying but... exaggerated in a humorous way, as he tends to do often in his works. The other Doctor's weren't that much worse in using the screwdriver instead of carrying around a whole toolbox, were they?

From Time Crash (You can read it after your write up Curly. )

Spoiler

Show

Ten speaking to Five: Oh no, you mostly went hands free in those days. No, it was all: I'm the Doctor. I can save the universe with a kettle and some string; and look at me, I'm wearing a vegetable.

[Reverent-One]

It's got both. Martha traveled the world telling people how often he saved them and how he is the only one who can save them again (not sure if sh said the latter part but she clearly meant it) There's NOONE else who can stop the master so you nned to believe in the Doctor. The 'I forgive you scene' (which I didn't really mind) didn't help either. He is pretty clearly the pictured savior of mankind, I think.

But the doctor needed their help, unlike religious figures generally do. To move away from real world religions, if a town in a D&D world prays to Obad-Hai, god of nature, for rain, it's not a question of can the Obad-Hai make it rain, but will he. However, in the case of the finale, it was the people of the world throwing their support to and helping the one person with the best chance of beating the threat to begin with. Without the people of the world, the Doctor wouldn't have been able to win, the Master had already beaten him. Mankind is both the doctor's and it's own savior in this case.

[The Big Dice]

And yeah, Moffat likes it and I guess your opinion can differ whether you like it but I like his usage of it most of the time.

The point is, the Doctor couldn't have escaped from being locked in the Pandorica unless he had already escaped from it. Which he couldn't do, because he was inside it and there was no way to escape from it. It's a paradox which never gets explained or resolved. you're just not supposed to notice or question it.

[Szilard]

What I don't get is why if the two screwdrivers from different points in their timelines zap, why don't the two doctors zap when they are in contact?

[Tiki Snakes]

The point is, the Doctor couldn't have escaped from being locked in the Pandorica unless he had already escaped from it. Which he couldn't do, because he was inside it and there was no way to escape from it. It's a paradox which never gets explained or resolved. you're just not supposed to notice or question it.

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.

Pretty comprehensively explained almost an entire Doctor ago.

[Kato]

[QUOTE=SuperPanda;11239861]From Time Crash (You can read it after your write up Curly. )
[snip][QUOTE]
Okay, I guess it's a NuWho thing... but I don't thin Smith/Eleven is a worse offender then his two predecessors.

But the doctor needed their help, unlike religious figures generally do. To move away from real world religions, if a town in a D&D world prays to Obad-Hai, god of nature, for rain, it's not a question of can the Obad-Hai make it rain, but will he. However, in the case of the finale, it was the people of the world throwing their support to and helping the one person with the best chance of beating the threat to begin with. Without the people of the world, the Doctor wouldn't have been able to win, the Master had already beaten him. Mankind is both the doctor's and it's own savior in this case.

Hm... point taken. Still, I don't like the messiah thing even if the Doctor is a Discworld god rather than a generic other god in this scenario, there are also other things I disliked about the scene. It's just... well, it didn't work for me. And it's not like I'm he only one who thinks so. Of course, if you enjoyed it, all the better for you.

The point is, the Doctor couldn't have escaped from being locked in the Pandorica unless he had already escaped from it. Which he couldn't do, because he was inside it and there was no way to escape from it. It's a paradox which never gets explained or resolved. you're just not supposed to notice or question it.

I.. am fully aware of that? That's a, if not THE distinguishing trade of a bootstrap paradox (or stable time loop for the tropers) If there was an explanation it wasn't one. And again, I don't mind. You don't need to explain everything (to me), I have seen so many of them I can enjoy it if it's done to my liking. I get it if you don't, I do, and I'm fully aware that it's not... logical. (I guess it's not the perfect term but whatever. 'Does not sustain causality'?)

[Avaris]

Reading the review as reminded me that its not actually the Deus ex Machina that I hated; its purely the messiaic overtones. I don't want religion in my Doctor Who, and regardless of how well told the story was (which it was) that one moment, regardless of what you call it, spoiled it utterly.

And unfortunately it didn't get much better with the christmas episode...

[The Big Dice]

Pretty comprehensively explained almost an entire Doctor ago.

And yet it still doesn't make sense even when you handwave it away. The Doctor got out of the escape proof Pandorica because the Doctor was out of the Pandorica to enable Rory to let him out of it. There's no sense to it. He had to be outside to give Rory the sonic screwdriver. But he was inside. Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey lazy writing. Paradox in place of plot.

It is a shame, because i know Moffat is capable of better. I just think he's a better writer when he's got a story editor than he is when he is the story editor.

The Doctor at the start of The Big Bang. That's a real deus ex machina for you.

[Reverent-One]

Reading the review as reminded me that its not actually the Deus ex Machina that I hated; its purely the messiaic overtones. I don't want religion in my Doctor Who, and regardless of how well told the story was (which it was) that one moment, regardless of what you call it, spoiled it utterly.

How is the moment religious though? They're not praying from some powerful being to decide to step in, they're lending their strength to help their best bet that otherwise would be doomed to failure. It's the psychic equivalent of a sports team running a strategy that revolves around the team setting the stage so their star player is able to make the winning play. Heck, it's pretty much the Spirit Bomb technique from DBZ (condensed down so it doesn't take 5 episodes ).

[Raddish]

I never saw it as religiously, I saw it as the system the Master put in place to take over the planet was used to free it again. A system that is not really explained how it works I don't think, just gets into peoples heads and subtely moves their mind towards certain opinions. I dunno, I guess each to his/her own interpretation.

[The Big Dice]

Looks like there's shenanigansgoing on with Who.

[Drolyt]

I never saw it as religiously, I saw it as the system the Master put in place to take over the planet was used to free it again. A system that is not really explained how it works I don't think, just gets into peoples heads and subtely moves their mind towards certain opinions. I dunno, I guess each to his/her own interpretation.

The Master has psychic powers. In the old series he would sometimes hypnotize people. As I understood it the system amplified his psychic powers and transmitted his hypnotism through cell phones/television/radio/the internet/anywhere he spoke. Presumably what happened at the end of Last of the Time Lords was all of the psychic power of every human on Earth was transmitted through the system to give The Doctor superpowers. I don't mind the logic, I just think it would have been better if it had freed The Doctor and then he used his normal methods to save the day, rather than becoming a floating superhero.

[thegurullamen]

And yet it still doesn't make sense even when you handwave it away.

What is...I don't...

Isn't the point of a handwave to sidestep engaging something because it doesn't make sense?

(Personal opinion--the above aside, I don't believe it's a hand wave. It's just one of several time-travel-related solutions/outcomes. Where it falls on the DEM/Brilliance! continuum depends on personal preference, but it's a solution not only established in time-travel fiction (see: Bill and Ted for one), but in Who as well. After all, just look at the end of Blink.)

[factotum]

'Does not sustain causality'?)

As soon as you introduce time travel you're violating causality, because from somebody's point of view (even if not your own) it's then possible for an effect to precede a cause. Example: somebody shoots a gun at someone and you send the bullet back in time while it's in flight so it misses the person but, say, knocks a hole in their TV--you have the effect (a destroyed television) preceding the cause (the gun being fired).

[Triscuitable]

And remindme again how the Doctor escaped from the Pandorica.

Using the usual BS system the series is known for! When the Sonic Screwdriver can fail on a broken lock after a minute, it can open the universe's greatest prison in less than a second!

[CurlyKitGirl]

About Cpt. Jack:

Spoiler

Show

He isn't an alien-who-looks-like-a-human, he's an actual human from the future who's been transformed by the TARDIS/Rose combination from the Season 1 finale.

Close enough I suppose.
Although he is from the fifty-first century, so chances are there's some alien in there too. Especially if his omnipotent and omniscient sex drive is hereditary.

Anyway, you now know why so many people dislike the Season 3 finale...it's basically run around for a while doing little of note, Deus Ex Machina, then Reset Button.

I don't dislike the finale, I don't like the conclusion and resolution. The first two episodes of the serial are honestly some of the best Doctor Who I've seen. The last third is . . . not up to the standards I had.
The futility shown on Cloudbase was fantastic, and while the pacing was a lot slower, I still didn't mind the expository walk-and-talks; it was needed after a year time skip and the pace was very frantic the previous two episodes.
Still could have been handled better though.

Ow. Oh well, I can only accept 10 of those at a time.

Great review. I was looking forward to your reaction to TinkerbellJesusDoctor.

*demotes ten more times!*
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Doubt 'Time Crash' will be up tonight, tired. But I'll try.

However! In a semi-related fashion:
I got my first Classic Who serial over the weekend: 'Genesis of the Daleks'.
All I know about this serial:
It's Four, Sarah Jane, Daleks, Davros, Skaro, Time Lords, they have to stop the creation of the Daleks from ever happening and perennially regarded as one of the greatest serials in all of Doctor Who's history.
Write it up?

[Aux-Ash]

And yet it still doesn't make sense even when you handwave it away. The Doctor got out of the escape proof Pandorica because the Doctor was out of the Pandorica to enable Rory to let him out of it. There's no sense to it. He had to be outside to give Rory the sonic screwdriver. But he was inside. Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey lazy writing. Paradox in place of plot.

Au contraire. It makes perfect sense. If you view time as personal rather than linear (which I think is part of the premise in a time-travel series).

The doctor got out of the trap because he went back in time to arrange for himself to get out of the trap. He is then reminded to do this so that he can get out of the trap.

It is perfectly logical. Circular logic, but it follows itself to the conclusion.

It can come right of the blue though (and in this case it does) but that's because the foreshadowing have a tendency to happen -after- the conclusion. But that's part of the paradox.

All in all... bootstrap paradoxes can be beautiful pieces of logic. Certainly much better than their ugly cousins "going back in time to change an event".