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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    I remember seeing one here recently. Now the board search turns up nothing. Can anyone point me to the right thread?
    So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
    On four hours sleep a night.
    With no sex.
    You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    If I remember correctly, it was Private-Prinny's work.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Turned up in a search when I tried it.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Weird. I searched for "Crusader" "Title Only" "3e subforum" "last 6 months" and it showed about 15 threads but not this. Thanks for the heads-up!

    *bookmarks*
    So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
    On four hours sleep a night.
    With no sex.
    You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Note that it's still a work in progress, and is much further from completion than the Warblade Handbook (although many times more finished than the Swordsage Handbook.)
    AWAY FOR A WEEK SHOULD BE BACK SUNDAY

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    If I remember correctly, it was Private-Prinny's work.
    That it is. The link will remain in my sig for all eternity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateral View Post
    Note that it's still a work in progress, and is much further from completion than the Warblade Handbook (although many times more finished than the Swordsage Handbook.)
    Elfin disappeared shortly after beginning the Swordsage Handbook, so I'd cut him some slack there.

    Also, I'm waiting for someone (anyone) to suggest the next thing to work on. First reply gets priority.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    That it is. The link will remain in my sig for all eternity.



    Elfin disappeared shortly after beginning the Swordsage Handbook, so I'd cut him some slack there.

    Also, I'm waiting for someone (anyone) to suggest the next thing to work on. First reply gets priority.
    World Hunger.
    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    With a roar of effort, I make everyone agree with EternalMelon.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMelon View Post
    World Hunger.
    Sorry, you need Iron Heart Surge for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    Sorry, you need Iron Heart Surge for that.
    The warblade will need to go on a diet first.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    Sorry, you need Iron Heart Surge for that.
    Take Martial Study twice. Et voilá.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    Sorry, you need Iron Heart Surge for that.
    Iron Heart Surge. The answer to all lives problems. Those who don't agree should be prepared to be IHS'd away.
    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    With a roar of effort, I make everyone agree with EternalMelon.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMelon View Post
    Iron Heart Surge. The answer to all lives problems. Those who don't agree should be prepared to be IHS'd away.
    With a roar of effort, I make everyone agree with EternalMelon.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    Also, I'm waiting for someone (anyone) to suggest the next thing to work on. First reply gets priority.
    In all seriousness, what really interests you, Prinny? I did a guide for poisons because I was sick of looking them up all the time and thought there would be a good opportunity for such a guide.

    The other two guides never get much attention, but I did Master of Shrouds because there seemed to be a lot of cool tricks you could try with it, and I did Healer because people hate on it all the time, but it's really not that bad once you move beyond core+mini's handbook.

    3.5 Classes without guides or with only incomplete guides:

    Truenamer: Only a dumb joke-guide on BG and Zaq's journal of his experiences
    Factotum: Is there a finished factotum guide out yet? Goodness knows we could use one.
    Incarnate: There must be one somewhere for this excellent but complex class. I'll bet Sinfire titan started and never finished one. Same goes for totemist.
    Psychic classes: I know there's a good PsyWarr handbook and the 2-3 psion ones are all..usable...but what about Ardent, Erudite, and Divine Mind, all of which are usable classes/alternate classes (unlike Soulknife...) without solid handbooks.


    Dragon Compendium classes:
    Death Master, Battle Dancer, Jester, Mountebank, Savant, Urban Druid. I think somebody did Sha'ir part-way.

    Other stuff I think would be awesome for a guide:
    Alchemical items
    An urban character guide
    A guide to the stronghold builder's guide - sort of like the guide to weapons of legacy
    Critical hit-based characters
    Divinations - only one short guide on wiz divinations
    Cleric spells by specialization - break the spell list down into manageable parts like divinations, buffs, battlefield control
    A setting guide: I feel like there is SO MUCH in FR or Eberron that I need a guide to freaking understand these worlds and the character options in them.

    Prestige classes I want somebody to tell me about: Master of Nine, Eternal Blade, Jade Phoenix Mage, Chameleon, Beast Heart Adept, Trapmaster
    Handbooks: (Hosted on BG)
    [3.5] The Poison Handbook
    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
    [3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post

    3.5 Classes without guides or with only incomplete guides:

    Truenamer: Only a dumb joke-guide on BG and Zaq's journal of his experiences
    Factotum: Is there a finished factotum guide out yet? Goodness knows we could use one.
    Incarnate: There must be one somewhere for this excellent but complex class. I'll bet Sinfire titan started and never finished one. Same goes for totemist.
    Psychic classes: I know there's a good PsyWarr handbook and the 2-3 psion ones are all..usable...but what about Ardent, Erudite, and Divine Mind, all of which are usable classes/alternate classes (unlike Soulknife...) without solid handbooks.

    Prestige classes I want somebody to tell me about: Master of Nine, Eternal Blade, Jade Phoenix Mage, Chameleon, Beast Heart Adept, Trapmaster
    Truenamer is mostly unplayable at mid-high levels without an Item Familiar, and even then it's basically just a really nerfed Wizard. You don't see a guide for it for the same reason you don't see guides for the Warmage, Healer, or Wu Jen.

    Factotum has a decent guide up on BG. Sinfire Titan did several Incarnum related guides.

    You're right about Ardent, Erudite, and Divine Mind. People generally avoid them because they come from a hated source.

    Master of Nine is a waste of time because of the pre-reqs.

    Eternal Blade has a great capstone but otherwise has a bunch of mediocre X to Y abilities.

    Jade Phoenix Mage is generally considered one of the best Gish PrC on the block. Tons of different build options there. Chameleon is similarly awesome, with an easily abused floating bonus Feat and universal spell list. I'm sure someone has done guides for them.

    Beast Heart Adept is an ok melee PrC around ECL 6-15ish (beyond that his pets stop scaling, and he tends to suck). He's notable for his ability to use Wild Empathy on magical beasts regardless of their Intelligence score, which is a fairly big deal if your DM allows Diplomancy. A Rilkan or Kenku who flanks with one of their pet's would get a non-trivial +6 to hit. And you get set up an AoO chain with Monstrous Tactics and Monstrous Team-Up, basically giving everyone in your party one extra attack per round.

    Trapmaster is mechanical garbage.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    The other two guides never get much attention, but I did Master of Shrouds because there seemed to be a lot of cool tricks you could try with it, and I did Healer because people hate on it all the time, but it's really not that bad once you move beyond core+mini's handbook.

    Akal Saris, you magnificent bastard, I read your handbooks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    A setting guide: I feel like there is SO MUCH in FR or Eberron that I need a guide to freaking understand these worlds and the character options in them.
    Those would be cool.
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    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Actually, Mo9 is great for a interesting set of specialized builds, like the idiot crusader. You will include the idiot crusader, right?
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Actually, Mo9 is great for a interesting set of specialized builds, like the idiot crusader. You will include the idiot crusader, right?
    Ugh.

    IIRC, the point of the Idiot Crusader is that you use the poorly worded maneuver progression rules from various PrC to ensure that all of your maneuvers known are added to the Swordsage/Warblade side of your build, but add more of your maneuvers readied are added to your Crusader side, thus ensuring that all of your Crusader maneuvers are fully refreshed every round. Right? It's been a while.

    While that's fun in theory, is there really a Crusader maneuver that's so important to you that you would be willing to nerf your mid level maneuver progression and spend 5 Feats on weak pre-reqs in order to use it every round?

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Actually, Mo9 is great for a interesting set of specialized builds, like the idiot crusader. You will include the idiot crusader, right?
    I strongly disbelieve in the Idiot Crusader. You can ready 12 maneuvers, but you only know 10. Therefore, you can't fill all of your readied maneuver slots. Therefore, your only option is to leave 2 readied maneuver slots empty when readying maneuvers. You can't choose to leave readied maneuver slots empty. Ergo, you lose the ability to ready maneuvers at all.

    And what Person_Man said is on the mark, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    You don't see a guide for it for the same reason you don't see guides for the Warmage, Healer, or Wu Jen.
    There are guides for both Warmage and Healer. I won't even link to the Healer guide, since it's in the sig of the person you were replying to.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    While that's fun in theory, is there really a Crusader maneuver that's so important to you that you would be willing to nerf your mid level maneuver progression and spend 5 Feats on weak pre-reqs in order to use it every round?
    White Raven Tactics?
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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
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    This is brilliant.
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    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

    Have a cookie.
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    Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    While that's fun in theory, is there really a Crusader maneuver that's so important to you that you would be willing to nerf your mid level maneuver progression and spend 5 Feats on weak pre-reqs in order to use it every round?
    Just one: White Raven Tactics. If you can use it every round, you could use it on yourself. Repeatedly. Forever.

    ...I think.

    Wait, no, eventually you'll hit an enemy's or ally's initiative count, and then you go, they go, and then you go again. Still works after that, though.
    Last edited by Lateral; 2011-04-19 at 03:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    With a roar of effort, I make everyone agree with EternalMelon.
    Could I sig this?
    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    With a roar of effort, I make everyone agree with EternalMelon.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMelon View Post
    Could I sig this?
    If you fail to sig it, I'll make you sig it with IHS. The sudden lack of awesome in your sig is clearly a condition that would affect us all.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-04-19 at 04:00 PM.
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    There are guides for both Warmage and Healer. I won't even link to the Healer guide, since it's in the sig of the person you were replying to.
    I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that

    I'm a fan of the Warmage handbook, since it's a funny take on the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Truenamer is mostly unplayable at mid-high levels without an Item Familiar, and even then it's basically just a really nerfed Wizard. You don't see a guide for it for the same reason you don't see guides for the Warmage, Healer, or Wu Jen.

    Factotum has a decent guide up on BG. Sinfire Titan did several Incarnum related guides.

    You're right about Ardent, Erudite, and Divine Mind. People generally avoid them because they come from a hated source.

    Master of Nine is a waste of time because of the pre-reqs.

    Eternal Blade has a great capstone but otherwise has a bunch of mediocre X to Y abilities.

    Jade Phoenix Mage is generally considered one of the best Gish PrC on the block. Tons of different build options there. Chameleon is similarly awesome, with an easily abused floating bonus Feat and universal spell list. I'm sure someone has done guides for them.

    Beast Heart Adept is an ok melee PrC around ECL 6-15ish (beyond that his pets stop scaling, and he tends to suck). He's notable for his ability to use Wild Empathy on magical beasts regardless of their Intelligence score, which is a fairly big deal if your DM allows Diplomancy. A Rilkan or Kenku who flanks with one of their pet's would get a non-trivial +6 to hit. And you get set up an AoO chain with Monstrous Tactics and Monstrous Team-Up, basically giving everyone in your party one extra attack per round.

    Trapmaster is mechanical garbage.
    Thanks for the long response The factotum link was handy too - I forgot that Dictuum did a handbook for them (despite being the third poster to respond to it).

    My point about the incarnum classes stands - the only guides we have are some half-assed ones that Sinfire threw together in an evening. One short post per incarnum class is not particularly useful, especially not for the incarnate.

    As far as PrCs go, my point was that there are some gems like Jade Phoenix Mage and Chameleon that deserve a handbook and are frequently used, but I haven't seen a good handbook for them yet. Hell, even older stand-bys like Divine Crusader haven't had a guide until recently.
    Handbooks: (Hosted on BG)
    [3.5] The Poison Handbook
    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
    [3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    AWAY FOR A WEEK SHOULD BE BACK SUNDAY

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    If you fail to sig it, I'll make you sig it with IHS. The sudden lack of awesome in your sig is clearly a condition that would affect us all.
    Hey! Bibliography is pretty awesome!
    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    With a roar of effort, I make everyone agree with EternalMelon.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMelon View Post
    Hey! Bibliography is pretty awesome!
    In the Words of My People..... LEROOOOOOO00ooOOOYYYYYYYYYY JENKINNNNNSSS.
    ::SURGE::

    Bibliography :: pant :: Need not... :: pant :: stand alone!
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-04-19 at 04:44 PM.
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    In the Words of My People..... LEROOOOOOO00ooOOOYYYYYYYYYY JENKINNNNNSSS.
    ::SURGE::

    Bibliography :: pant :: Need not... :: pant :: stand alone!
    I was going to wait for permission, but it would only take a couple seconds to reverse anyway. But if you insist... Your my witness and partner in crime. All blame goes to you if this fails. In the high case of success, you get the first slice of pi.

    Also, a well known optimizer optimizing my sig, cool!
    Last edited by EternalMelon; 2011-04-19 at 04:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    With a roar of effort, I make everyone agree with EternalMelon.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMelon View Post
    All blame goes to you if this fails.
    Naturally. He forced you to do it with IHS, there's nothing you could've done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

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    Default Re: Where did the Crusader Handbook go?

    I wonder if "not having infinite swift actions and infinite uses of White Raven Tactics" counts as an adverse effect...
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