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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Don't forget Shiba Protector. The first-level ability adds an untyped bonus equal to your Wis bonus to all attacks and damage. With Insightful Strike you're getting Wis to AC, 2x Wis to attack, Wis to damage, and an extra Wis to damage with your favored disciplines' strikes.

    Kind of annoying feat prereqs, but very worthwhile if you can manage it.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    Don't forget Shiba Protector. The first-level ability adds an untyped bonus equal to your Wis bonus to all attacks and damage. With Insightful Strike you're getting Wis to AC, 2x Wis to attack, Wis to damage, and an extra Wis to damage with your favored disciplines' strikes.

    Kind of annoying feat prereqs, but very worthwhile if you can manage it.
    Combat Expertise (and the natural follow-up, Imp. Trip) can be picked up with a monk dip without needing int, and Imp. Trip is pretty snazzy with, say, setting sun maneuvers.

    Iron Will can be gained by wrestling with otyughs in their hole (magical location from Complete Scoundrel).

    Alertness is still mostly wasted, but meh.
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Leaping flame shouldn't be cyan, it requires you to teleport next to the attacker, not just anywhere you want within the range,

    Aldo, you need to do a spell check, a lot of the colors are wrong, you listed maneuvers as black, quick to act as gold, and bonesplitting strike as red. Those are all wrong, and I'm pretty sure there are some others that are wrong.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Combat Expertise (and the natural follow-up, Imp. Trip) can be picked up with a monk dip without needing int, and Imp. Trip is pretty snazzy with, say, setting sun maneuvers.

    Iron Will can be gained by wrestling with otyughs in their hole (magical location from Complete Scoundrel).

    Alertness is still mostly wasted, but meh.
    Some GMs take issue with using Otyugh Hole for prereqs, so ymmv there. Improved Trip is nice if you've got the feats for it - mostly I'm just kvetching because I've been trying to cram Shiba Protector and Master of Nine into the same build. So feat-hungry!
    Last edited by Benly; 2011-05-01 at 02:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    Some GMs take issue with using Otyugh Hole for prereqs, so ymmv there.
    Meh, point out it's not Incantrix you're going for, and all those other feats required.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    Improved Trip is nice if you've got the feats for it
    You can grab that second level of monk for that. Evasion earlier isn't bad either.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    You can grab that second level of monk for that. Evasion earlier isn't bad either.
    Like I said, if you've got the feats for it. I sort of class "enough wiggle room to pick up a class with more bonus feats" under having the feats for it. If you're just going with Shiba Protector, you probably will, but if you're like me and trying to cram in multiple high-req PrCs, three feats for that one-level dip is pretty hungry. If you're not doing crazy things like that, Improved Trip makes Combat Expertise feel considerably more worthwhile, I agree.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    Don't forget Shiba Protector. The first-level ability adds an untyped bonus equal to your Wis bonus to all attacks and damage. With Insightful Strike you're getting Wis to AC, 2x Wis to attack, Wis to damage, and an extra Wis to damage with your favored disciplines' strikes.
    Insightful Strike replaces all damage bonuses regardless of source with a Concentration check (which is based on Constitution not Wisdom) so I'm not sure why you're calling it out for special mention with your combo.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfire View Post
    Insightful Strike replaces all damage bonuses regardless of source with a Concentration check (which is based on Constitution not Wisdom) so I'm not sure why you're calling it out for special mention with your combo.
    I think he means that swordsage class feature where you add your wis to damage with maneuvers from a certain school. I forget the name.

    [Edit]: It's called Insightful Strike. Fancy that.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2011-05-01 at 03:18 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Actually, I meant Intuitive Attack (BoED, Wis to attack roll) but was getting all these things jumbled together. In my defense, I've been staring at maneuver selection for a level 15 gestalt swordsage/shiba//warblade/Mo9 all dang day and my brain is fried.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    I think he means that swordsage class feature where you add your wis to damage with maneuvers from a certain school. I forget the name.

    [Edit]: It's called Insightful Strike. Fancy that.
    Probably the source of the Confusion.

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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    I think he means that swordsage class feature where you add your wis to damage with maneuvers from a certain school. I forget the name.

    [Edit]: It's called Insightful Strike. Fancy that.
    ... and suddenly everything makes much more sense. Why on earth would I get that confused with Insightful Strike?

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    What do you think of a Changeling Swordsage->Warshaper build? How to make the most of those natural attacks?

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    I think a changeling warshaper wouldn't really work. It couldn't take advantage of the infinite natural attacks very well, since there isn't many boosts or other abilitys that work with full attacks.
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    I think a changeling warshaper wouldn't really work. It couldn't take advantage of the infinite natural attacks very well, since there isn't many boosts or other abilitys that work with full attacks.
    You don't need to do anything else to take advantage of infinite natural attacks. You just get in range and declare "I win".
    Now, no one is going to allow you infinite natural weapons from warshaper. I usually houserule it to one additional natural weapon.
    Also, Warblade works a lot better for Warshaper. You qualify at 4 and both have war in their names

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    You don't need to do anything else to take advantage of infinite natural attacks. You just get in range and declare "I win".
    Now, no one is going to allow you infinite natural weapons from warshaper. I usually houserule it to one additional natural weapon.
    Also, Warblade works a lot better for Warshaper. You qualify at 4 and both have war in their names
    I don't think thst Warshaper is within the scope of thuis guide. Warshaper is a prestige class that can benefit just about anything, a swordsage doesn't have a lot to gain taking it compared to something like a fighter or paladin.

    If you want I can make a thread and we can debate back and forth about swordsage warshapers.
    Last edited by Hazzardevil; 2011-05-16 at 03:09 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Why do people exclusively fixate on the infinite natural attacks glitch?

    Warshaper gives you reach, fast healing, crit immunity, and +4 Str/Con in four levels. The natural attacks are a nice bonus but not even necessary for warshaper to be worthwhile. That said, mechanically there's more synergy for a crackdown warblade or crusader than for a swordsage. Thematically it can go quite nicely with Tiger Claw, though.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    This is worth repeating. Leaping Flame does not teleport you anywhere within range, it teleports you adjacent to the attacker.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Great guide.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    I did most of the stances and posted it on the other thread please add it to this thread I'm working on the rest
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    Why do people exclusively fixate on the infinite natural attacks glitch?

    Warshaper gives you reach, fast healing, crit immunity, and +4 Str/Con in four levels. The natural attacks are a nice bonus but not even necessary for warshaper to be worthwhile. That said, mechanically there's more synergy for a crackdown warblade or crusader than for a swordsage. Thematically it can go quite nicely with Tiger Claw, though.
    I don't understand either. Warshaper was a common class in optimized builds back in 339 (heck, it's a part of the King of Smack) but it took years until I saw someone mentioning infinite natural attacks. It's one of those things people should ignore while doing practical optimization, because
    a) it's not intended
    b) it's gamebreaking
    c) it's silly

    I've recently seen many of similar cases being defended here in the playground. It's said to see people becomiong munchkins instead of optimizers.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Did this handbook re-die?
    If not, might I suggest Sun School as a light blue candidate for unarmed swordsages? It becomes much better than if you were a monk because you have technically INFINITE teleports and can flurry as a standard action(flashing Sun). It gives minor distance control(always good for a swordsage) and pretty much gives a free attack with shadow blink and leaping flame(making the later pretty awesome as it ENSURES anyone who attacks you at range is practically giving you a free attack, two when combined with snapkick, AND depositing you right next to him).
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by marcielle View Post
    Did this handbook re-die?
    If not, might I suggest Sun School as a light blue candidate for unarmed swordsages? It becomes much better than if you were a monk because you have technically INFINITE teleports and can flurry as a standard action(flashing Sun). It gives minor distance control(always good for a swordsage) and pretty much gives a free attack with shadow blink and leaping flame(making the later pretty awesome as it ENSURES anyone who attacks you at range is practically giving you a free attack, two when combined with snapkick, AND depositing you right next to him).
    The problem is getting Flurry of Blows, which I don't believe Unarmed Swordsages get. Flashing Sun may act like Flurry but it isn't actually Flurry. Otherwise, yes, Sun School would be lovely for an US, especially with Falling Star Strike, though it looks rather like it's the territory of Tashalatora.
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    The problem is getting Flurry of Blows, which I don't believe Unarmed Swordsages get. Flashing Sun may act like Flurry but it isn't actually Flurry. Otherwise, yes, Sun School would be lovely for an US, especially with Falling Star Strike, though it looks rather like it's the territory of Tashalatora.
    This could be solved by dipping one level of monk, could it not? The redundancy is bad, but it lets you flurry.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    This could be solved by dipping one level of monk, could it not? The redundancy is bad, but it lets you flurry.
    You could but the guide is about Swordsages, is it not? If we want to get into what multiclassing helps a prospective Swordsage, then yes, a level or two dip in monk could work well. It's just the feat isn't feasible if you want to go straight Swordsage.
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Many guides include at least a blurb about multiclassing and considering how friendly is ToB to multiclassing so putting a note that Dipping monk is not a bad idea for a sworsage, due the bonus feats and access to some really nifty feats is not out of question IMHO
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    I just want to say that this guide, as well as the other guide to warblades has been very helpful. I'm still working on developing my char, but cheers for all this help!

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Well, I'm thinking more lenient DMs might let it slide since it's not broken good after all, just helpful for getting in more attacks and avoiding full attacks from opponents without reach. I realise it wouldn't fly in a low OP though.

    That said, monk is generally a good 1-2 level dip for any full melee because of the bonus feats. If you are allowed extrapolate an Ascetic feat, a dash of monk is really quite good for a normal swordsage. Even without it, it at least gets you into Mo9 a tad easier.
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by marcielle View Post
    Well, I'm thinking more lenient DMs might let it slide since it's not broken good after all, just helpful for getting in more attacks and avoiding full attacks from opponents without reach. I realise it wouldn't fly in a low OP though.
    That's houserule territory. This is handbook is about RAW.

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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    That's houserule territory. This is handbook is about RAW.
    Derp.

    Fine, RAW version should go: 1-2 level monk dip for IUS, combat reflexes and DOUBLE untyped Wis bonus to touch AC when unarmored(say goodbye to rays). Sunschool, snapkick and teleport for free attacks, then flurry, push enemy back, 5 ft step back.

    Not really sure if you can teleport then 5 foot step though. If you can't, then just use a strike.
    Last edited by marcielle; 2011-08-07 at 08:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]

    Quote Originally Posted by marcielle View Post
    Derp.

    Fine, RAW version should go: 1-2 level monk dip for IUS, combat reflexes and DOUBLE untyped Wis bonus to touch AC when unarmored(say goodbye to rays). Sunschool, snapkick and teleport for free attacks, then flurry, push enemy back, 5 ft step back.

    Not really sure if you can teleport then 5 foot step though. If you can't, then just use a strike.
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