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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    who doesnt objectify girls?
    Most of the other guys I know are always objectifying girls and treating them as toys and not bothering to get to know them before dating them. They really just pick up random girls off the street. I don't do this and guys mock me. I actually end up talking to a lot of girls and as a consequence i have a lot of girls who like me for who i am (Despite my having a girlfriend). Another consequence of me actually getting to know girls is that i have girlfriends who stay with me for like 6+ months not 6 or so days.
    so am i the only guy who doesn't objectify girls or am i just some sort of social freak?
    No, you're not. And this isn't directed at you directly, but I've had some experiences recently that I feel are relevant.
    A disgustingly large amount of men I know memorize feminist literature and tracts, and then use these ideas to "up their cred." As in, talking a mean game when it comes to feminism and the like in order to make then look cool. The result of this, they hope, is to seduce women who are attracted by that sort of rhetoric. Essentially, it's using feminist rhetoric to mask basic objectification (looking to "score").
    Saying you oppose the objectification of women is not enough. You need to act like it, too.
    Of course, by saying this, I could very well be doing the same thing I profess to detest. Talking about how some men use feminist ideas to mask basic misogyny could be my way to cover my use of feminism to mask objectification. You can't escape! Unless you're gay, I suppose.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    i never got the whole "getting to know them before you date them" thing. i mean, the whole point of dating is to get to know someone.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombyWoof View Post
    Insulted? Really? That seems like an overreaction. Weirded out, maybe, or creeped out, but I'm curious as to why you would be insulted to find out someone thought you were attractive.
    Well, I'd probably take offense... that'd just be wrong. I'd be flattered if someone came up and was like "Hi, I know you don't know who I am, but I think you're really pretty". But someone randomly coming up to me and asking to have sex would be... eww. There's a pretty big difference between the two.
    Last edited by Perenelle; 2011-04-24 at 07:06 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    My own view of it: you need to consider three axioms.

    Women are objects.
    Men are objects.
    Neither women nor men are just objects.

    I really believe all three of these are true. In my experience, if you start denying any one of them, you start to run into troubles.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelbert View Post
    No, you're not. And this isn't directed at you directly, but I've had some experiences recently that I feel are relevant.
    A disgustingly large amount of men I know memorize feminist literature and tracts, and then use these ideas to "up their cred." As in, talking a mean game when it comes to feminism and the like in order to make then look cool. The result of this, they hope, is to seduce women who are attracted by that sort of rhetoric. Essentially, it's using feminist rhetoric to mask basic objectification (looking to "score").
    Saying you oppose the objectification of women is not enough. You need to act like it, too.
    Of course, by saying this, I could very well be doing the same thing I profess to detest. Talking about how some men use feminist ideas to mask basic misogyny could be my way to cover my use of feminism to mask objectification. You can't escape! Unless you're gay, I suppose.
    *SNORT*

    Well women who are so easily fooled by rhetoric can't be that smart anyways. Ever seen Good Will Hunting? I like to think of myself as Will when he calls out that grad student in the bar. Girls I date should be able to pick the rhetoric out of a conversation and make fun of it.

    In any case I don't care if people think of me as "misogynistic" or whatever. Those are labels slapped by people who can't handle the fact that people aren't always treated perfectly. I know that I "respect" women as much as one can (I don't respect women as a group, but I view people as people and respect people) without knowing them and the only reason I treat them any differently is if they're attractive and I want to get together with them (or if they're my friends). And that's not wrong no matter what the feminist leadership says.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Perenelle View Post
    Well, I'd probably take offense... that'd just be wrong. I'd be flattered if someone came up and was like "Hi, I know you don't know who I am, but I think you're really pretty". But someone randomly coming up to me and asking to have sex would be... eww. There's a pretty big difference between the two.
    There is a difference and I'm not saying there isn't, but being offended by it seems like an odd reaction. Like I said, weirded out, creeped out, sure. Offended? That's... kind of like being offended by someone holding up a sign that says "Penniless and homeless please help."
    Last edited by ZombyWoof; 2011-04-24 at 07:13 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombyWoof View Post
    EDIT:


    There is a difference and I'm not saying there isn't, but being offended by it seems like an odd reaction. Like I said, weirded out, creeped out, sure. Offended? That's... kind of like being offended by someone holding up a sign that says "Penniless and homeless please help."
    Hmm, well, I'm not sure. That's just the reaction I think i'd have, I've never been in that situation before.
    I know I would be creeped out for sure. Maybe after thinking it through i'd be less offended and more embarrassed? But I still wouldn't find it appropriate at all for random guys to come up to me and ask/suggest that.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    who doesnt objectify girls?
    Most of the other guys I know are always objectifying girls and treating them as toys and not bothering to get to know them before dating them. They really just pick up random girls off the street. I don't do this and guys mock me. I actually end up talking to a lot of girls and as a consequence i have a lot of girls who like me for who i am (Despite my having a girlfriend). Another consequence of me actually getting to know girls is that i have girlfriends who stay with me for like 6+ months not 6 or so days.
    so am i the only guy who doesn't objectify girls or am i just some sort of social freak?
    You're far from alone here. I like to think that most men don't objectify women, but in the society I live in I get the same vibes you do. Except for the playground, I feel like I'm nearly alone in my regular social circles in this regard. Thankfully, there are communities like this one where guys like us aren't alone
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Definitely a freak. Seriously, what's up with that? [/sarcasm]

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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    The objectification of women isn't very common in my environment, but I've seen it happen, and it sickens me to the core. After I had just finished a brief, courteous conversation with a female friend whom I had known for four years, a guy came up to me and made some comment on my "spitting aim," as if I had been hitting on her.
    It's disgusting, and it really should not happen. I feel for you. You are not alone.

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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    not bothering to get to know them before dating them.
    One of the better ways to do it. Friendship into romance is a fun transition to make, but can get weird. Jumping from a. (acquaintance) to c. (uh... classy dinner?) avoids baggage, and can seem a lot less... disingenuous than pretending like the feelings are there while you 'must' work your way through b (besties).

    They really just pick up random girls off the street.
    And... ? Either they're good at what they do or everyone's getting what they deserve, which is less about gender views and more about people and hormones.

    Or, you know, prostitution.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Grim, I had a friend who was very much like yours (whether or not yours is a friend) and I will state that it's a very rare thing to come by. Most guys aren't like that, not the jocks, not the nerds and not [insert social group x].

    That said, don't let it get to you, the women he talks to all have a choice when he speaks to them and most of them are going to shut him down. If they don't then it's their choice and you just have to assume they know what they're getting into.

    Take some solace that if this guy continues his ways he's not likely to have any lasting relationships and will forever bounce between women for the rest of his life (and he might be okay with that). As long as he knows what he's getting himself into and the women who actually take his proposals know what they're getting into (and there's no abuse) then you have no obligation to intervene in any way.

    Now, if he complains about how he can't keep a girl? It might be time to explain things to him.
    Last edited by Sipex; 2011-04-25 at 12:28 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    who doesnt objectify girls?
    Most of the other guys I know are always objectifying girls and treating them as toys and not bothering to get to know them before dating them. They really just pick up random girls off the street. I don't do this and guys mock me. I actually end up talking to a lot of girls and as a consequence i have a lot of girls who like me for who i am (Despite my having a girlfriend). Another consequence of me actually getting to know girls is that i have girlfriends who stay with me for like 6+ months not 6 or so days.
    so am i the only guy who doesn't objectify girls or am i just some sort of social freak?
    This might be some kind of localized cultural phenomenon, given your self-professed location and the stories I've heard about the general reception women have received in Paris it certainly seems possible.

    I mean, given how loose a term "objectifying women" has become, you're going to run into it pretty much everywhere there are men and women, but this is definitely a rather extreme case.

    Nothing wrong with being able to get a date out of a girl the first time one meets her, of course, but it's definitely no substitute for being able to actually have a conversation with one.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sipex View Post
    Grim, I had a friend who was very much like yours (whether or not yours is a friend) and I will state that it's a very rare thing to come by. Most guys aren't like that, not the jocks, not the nerds and not [insert social group x].

    That said, don't let it get to you, the women he talks to all have a choice when he speaks to them and most of them are going to shut him down. If they don't then it's their choice and you just have to assume they know what they're getting into.

    Take some solace that if this guy continues his ways he's not likely to have any lasting relationships and will forever bounce between women for the rest of his life (and he might be okay with that). As long as he knows what he's getting himself into and the women who actually take his proposals know what they're getting into (and there's no abuse) then you have no obligation to intervene in any way.

    Now, if he complains about how he can't keep a girl? It might be time to explain things to him.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    My own view of it: you need to consider three axioms.

    Women are objects.
    Men are objects.
    Neither women nor men are just objects.

    I really believe all three of these are true. In my experience, if you start denying any one of them, you start to run into troubles.
    This is basically my view as well. I don't know if you'd call it objectification, but I tend to view people in the same way I view compilers; they're doing their best approximation at what they should, based what they're currently considering in light of how they've been taught to think. It's why I don't get outraged at people who treat other people as accessories; it's simply what they think will get them what they want (which, in my experience, is usually inflation of their ego, at least when this occurs at a local level).

    So I suppose the ubiquity of objectification depends on what you define as objectification.

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    Is it objectifying when I treat it like an RPG?

    I need to complete quest Date Night to obtain the +3 Girlfriend so I can enter the PrC Boyfriend and gain a +10 bonus to my dignity.

    But then again, I treat all aspects of life like an RPG. Cleaning the dishes gets me 25 xp points. I also took favored enemy college exam. That combat bonus really comes in handy.

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    I think how bad this is depends what you mean by "objectify". I think it's natural to notice how attractive a woman is first off...it's when you never look *beyond* her looks that there's a problem, IMHO.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Epic View Post
    I need to complete quest Date Night to obtain the +3 Girlfriend so I can enter the PrC Boyfriend and gain a +10 bonus to my dignity.
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.

    Also, the Boyfriend PrC was written too early in developement. Most of it's abilities are only available per day. I suggest you add maneuver progress to it similar to Eternal Blade, selecting maneuvers from the True Heart and Compassionate Ear disciplines. This gives you more per/encounter options in case your DM makes you go on all-day date sessions with multiple encounters.

    +diginity is pretty easy to optimize outside of a girlfriend though. Clothing of Sharp-Dressedness will give you a +5 circumstance bonus alone. If you spend a month or two working out with a Barbell of Strength or a Sparring Dummy of Ninja-Skillz, you can also gain an +1 to +5 insight bonus Physique, which applies when making strength based checks and allows you to apply your Str stat to most Cha based interactions in addition to your Cha.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    My class won't let me have a girlfriend with Greater Magic Make-up. I prefer the Natural Look feat for my girlfriend build. Though one or two ranks in Cosmetics isn't bad for optimization.

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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    But you still need a +3 Girlfriend to use the best augment crystals as a Rouge.

    Also...sigged!
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-06-12 at 07:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    But you still need a +3 Girlfriend to use the best augment crystals as a Rouge.
    Fix't...its funnier this way.
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    *snort* this is why I love Keld so much.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Fix't...its funnier this way.
    Indeed. One of the few situations on these boards where that's actually not a typo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombyWoof View Post
    Insulted? Really? That seems like an overreaction. Weirded out, maybe, or creeped out, but I'm curious as to why you would be insulted to find out someone thought you were attractive.
    Think about what he's implying. He's basically saying "Hey, you look easy. You look like my big pecs could make you throw away your panties."

    Now, I know girls who like that kind of once-meet-never-again sex, but I get the feeling Perenelle isn't one of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    well the guys treat girls they know with respect, but random people they dont know
    its like wow...
    how can you go up to a girl and say that?
    Eh, most guys like that say the same sort of thing to guys (not context wise, but vocalization and stuff). So it's more of the fact that they're just jerks then sexist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Epic View Post
    My class won't let me have a girlfriend with Greater Magic Make-up. I prefer the Natural Look feat for my girlfriend build. Though one or two ranks in Cosmetics isn't bad for optimization.
    Ah, judging by that class restriction, I'm guessing you're looking for early entry into the Perfect Lifemate PrC? The crunch is powerful, but the fluff requirements are pretty steep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    Think about what he's implying. He's basically saying "Hey, you look easy. You look like my big pecs could make you throw away your panties."

    Now, I know girls who like that kind of once-meet-never-again sex, but I get the feeling Perenelle isn't one of them.
    He's not implying that you look easy. That's you putting words and feelings into his mouth. And I dislike your implication by use of the word "easy" that somehow a girl who likes sex is a bad person or something.

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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    That was not my intention. What kind of sex a girl likes - a person likes - is up to that person. I really only have an issue with it when it becomes self-destructive, e.g. to shore up a faltering ego.
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    Have you ever watched porn or bought a dirty magazine?

    Congratulations, you've objectified women. Don't feel too bad about it, it's normal to a certain extent.
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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    I've never thought of myself as objectifying women, though that's largely because I more or less am uninterested in dating/scoring/ or anything of the kind really.

    However, when I was in high school and part of college I was in football and a few other sports, and yes, it runs rampant there. The guys talk mostly about those they've scored with and whatnot, and never grew emotionally tied to those they dated.

    Honestly, I have no problem with this really. It takes two to tango (I assume, I've never actually tangoed or seen a tango), if a girl gives it to a guy whose a jerk deep down that's her choice. If a guy is out to have sex with someone, so long as he doesn't force her into it (which is unforgivable in my eyes) let him lie or try to make the girl like him however he can. If you're worried that the guy is only interested in you for sex, don't sleep with him, easy as that. If you do sleep with a guy right away, I hope you have fun, but I'd rather not like to hear you complain once he dumps you.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2011-04-25 at 03:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Am I the only guy

    Yeah, the answer to the question has a lot to do with what 'objectify" means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Honestly, I have no problem with this really. It takes two to tango (I assume, I've never actually tangoed or seen a tango), if a girl gives it to a guy whose a jerk deep down that's her choice. If a guy is out to have sex with someone, so long as he doesn't force her into it (which is unforgivable in my eyes) let him lie or try to make the girl like him however he can.
    Unless the girl is a friend of mine, in which case I might try to talk to her. Tell her that she doesn't have to have sex with jerks for people to like her.
    Last edited by Asta Kask; 2011-04-25 at 03:53 PM.
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