Am I the only guy

[ZombyWoof]

But it's still your heavy implication because you find the fact that someone walks up to a girl and asks for casual sex to be insulting to the girl. That's sexism right there, because that means that in your mind it's not ok for a girl to have a casual encounter because that would make her dirty.

What I'm saying is that there's no reason to be insulted at all if a guy asks you for casual sex. If you don't want to sleep with him, "No, but thank you for the offer it's very flattering" is a perfectly acceptable response.

EDIT: I loved the poster who said "Men are objects and women are objects, the key is to realize that they are not ONLY objects."

[Asta Kask]

But it's still your heavy implication because you find the fact that someone walks up to a girl and asks for casual sex to be insulting to the girl. That's sexism right there, because that means that in your mind it's not ok for a girl to have a casual encounter because that would make her dirty.

Er, no. I'm saying that, based on my admittedly scanty knowledge of Perenelle I don't think she's the kind of girl who would enjoy it. The rest... I'm sorry, that's just not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that there's no reason to be insulted at all if a guy asks you for casual sex. If you don't want to sleep with him, "No, but thank you for the offer it's very flattering" is a perfectly acceptable response.

That depends a lot on what you think that request implies. And a guy may have other reasons for making that request than "She's sexy."

[ZombyWoof]

Er, no. I'm saying that, based on my admittedly scanty knowledge of Perenelle I don't think she's the kind of girl who would enjoy it. The rest... I'm sorry, that's just not what I'm saying.

Yes it is because you said it would be insulting to her to be propositioned.

[Dienekes]

Yes it is because you said it would be insulting to her to be propositioned.

This I find pretty amusing. I wonder, from any of the girls reading this thread, if someone walked up to you and asked you "Hey baby, want no strings attached sex?" If you'd be insulted or not.

I have a feeling that if I tried that, I'd get slapped, repeatedly.

[LaZodiac]

Have you ever watched porn or bought a dirty magazine?

Congratulations, you've objectified women. Don't feel too bad about it, it's normal to a certain extent.

But what if you watched it for the men? And what if you legitimitly enjoy the articles and that's why you buy them? Just curious.

As it stands, my opinion on this subject is "people should stop stressing out over little things".

[Sipex]

But what if you watched it for the men? And what if you legitimitly enjoy the articles and that's why you buy them? Just curious.

As it stands, my opinion on this subject is "people should stop stressing out over little things".

I think then you'd just be objectifying men. Unsure.

Although I completely agree with you, people get too caught up with absolutes, thinking that even a smidgeon of 'bad' makes them horrible people so they can't be bad at all, right?

IE: You can't objectify people at all, you can't like casual sex at all...etc

[ZombyWoof]

This I find pretty amusing. I wonder, from any of the girls reading this thread, if someone walked up to you and asked you "Hey baby, want no strings attached sex?" If you'd be insulted or not.

I have a feeling that if I tried that, I'd get slapped, repeatedly.

The question here in my mind isn't whether or not they are insulted but whether or not they should be insulted. I am arguing very strongly that it is not insulting to be propositioned for casual sex regardless of gender and almost regardless of situation. To say it is... well.. it's (and pardon me for linking to this FAQ because these are always over the top) that.

[Mordokai]

But what if you watched it for the men? And what if you legitimitly enjoy the articles and that's why you buy them? Just curious.

As it stands, my opinion on this subject is "people should stop stressing out over little things".

Like Sipex said, you've objectified men. And that makes you a truly terrible person and you should now be ashamed of yourself

But I agree with you.

I think then you'd just be objectifying men. Unsure.

Although I completely agree with you, people get too caught up with absolutes, thinking that even a smidgeon of 'bad' makes them horrible people so they can't be bad at all, right?

IE: You can't objectify people at all, you can't like casual sex at all...etc

This good man has it right.

Not necessarily you haven't.

You're objectifying the dead tree from which the magazine is made?

[Solaris]

Unless the girl is a friend of mine, in which case I might try to talk to her. Tell her that she doesn't have to have sex with jerks for people to like her.

She might actually be interested in nothing but a night or three of casual sex. Females have libidos too, and they aren't all so stupid as to think that guy they met at the nightclub really wants to have a meaningful relationship with them.

[golentan]

I'm going to fall in on "propositioning should not be considered insulting by default," but I'm going to say that it can be phrased in an insulting way.

Lets draw a comparison to poker. Some stranger invites you to a game. You might accept because you enjoy the game, or because it's a good way to get to know the new person, or because you just didn't have other plans for the night. You might decline because he's a stranger, or you've got a regular game going, or just have other plans for the night. It's probably phrased as a simple invitation, but if the guy is a jerk and says "you look too stupid to bet well and I could use the cash" that's probably a sign to get insulted. On the other hand, reading that statement into the invitation in the first place if it's not there is just silly.

On the other hand, there is not a mass species psychosis when it comes to poker, so there is a lot more baggage. But I feel that in principle the same theories apply.

[AtlanteanTroll]

You're objectifying the dead tree from which the magazine is made?

Not all porn is hetero.

[Mordokai]

Not all porn is hetero.

And now you're just complicating things where there's no need for complicating.

[Coidzor]

But what if you watched it for the men? And what if you legitimitly enjoy the articles and that's why you buy them? Just curious.

It's still contributing money to the people that produce such things at all, I believe, in the case of the purchasing of such things, that this is sufficient for the act of objectification.

I'm going to fall in on "propositioning should not be considered insulting by default," but I'm going to say that it can be phrased in an insulting way.

Agreed.

She might actually be interested in nothing but a night or three of casual sex. Females have libidos too, and they aren't all so stupid as to think that guy they met at the nightclub really wants to have a meaningful relationship with them.

Well, I imagine you'd find that out pretty quickly if you offered that kind of advice to someone like that, eh?

[golentan]

And now you're just complicating things where there's no need for complicating.

Speak for yourself. I can certainly see the advantages of complication...

[Coidzor]

Speak for yourself. I can certainly see the advantages of complication...

I dunno how one manages to determine the sex of woodpulp though.... or whatever magazines are made out of these days.

[golentan]

I dunno how one manages to determine the sex of woodpulp though.... or whatever magazines are made out of these days.

Taste, naturally. Female wood pulp tastes slightly Saltier Type 5, while Male tastes slightly Saltier Type 4. Though most paper is intersex anyway.

[Lissou]

I hang out with a lot of guys, and they're all respectful as far as I can tell. And about objectification... I like myself some objectification. Not all the time, not everyone, but to paraphrase Dan Savage, sometimes, you need to be able to take someone out of their pedestal, do dirty things with them, and then put them back up.

I don't mean that one-way, either. I objectify guys from time to time. Doing it to guys who don't want to be objectified at that time is bad, but doing it to people with their consent is fun. You know, saying "Hi there, hot stuff" and slapping their behind or something.

But that kind of thing would be totally inappropriate to do to a stranger or someone you don't know very well. The slapping part at least.

As for being offended by being propositioned... I remember someone once thought I was a prostitute when I was walking in the street going back home from work, and showed interest.
Well, I didn't feel flattered (I don't believe the guy had super-high standards, I believe any woman who agreed to have sex with him would have been fine), but I certainly didn't feel offended either.
And I've been asked out by complete strangers in the street, and was never offended by any of these, either (although once again not flattered for the same reasons). I don't really get why I should be offended any more than by a hobo asking me for money when I don't have any to give (to give an example of something else you can ask a complete stranger in the street).

But I guess some people might be grossed out enough to be offended by it. I don't know. I don't get it but I don't think they're wrong to feel that way, it's just how they feel about it, and I totally get wanting to be able to walk in the street without people propositioning you.

Plus I can be weird in what offends me personally. For instance, I always get annoyed by clerks that ask how I am doing. How is it any of their business to ask about my private life? Or when I walk in a store and employees start saying "hi", I want to just leave the store (I've done it in the past) because I feel cornered. I'd much rather they didn't talk to me without being asked, I feel like they're not respecting my privacy otherwise.
Most people think I'm weird about that, so if people get offended by stuff I really don't care about, I don't want to start telling them they're wrong, because who am I to tell them how they're supposed to feel?

[Mordokai]

Speak for yourself. I can certainly see the advantages of complication...

What I meant to say was, the existance of non hetero porn is irrelevant in this case, since we're talking about objectifying women. Ergo, the porn that doesn't have women... performers in it is not relevant to discussion here.

[Innis Cabal]

So it's not objectifying when men look at homosexual porn? Or that just because this is asking about women that somehow men objectifying other men or women objectifying other women isn't on topic?

[Lissou]

What I meant to say was, the existance of non hetero porn is irrelevant in this case, since we're talking about objectifying women. Ergo, the porn that doesn't have women... performers in it is not relevant to discussion here.

Er... Never heard of woman-on-woman porn? That usually feature straight women having sex together, because it sells?

[Dvandemon]

No, you are not. On a related note,

Spoiler

Show

can't a guy say he likes boobs without accusations of being an objectifying jerk?

[Innis Cabal]

They also on average get paid more for same sex films then they do for hetero porn. That's just on average though.

[Coidzor]

No, you are not. On a related note,

Spoiler

Show

can't a guy say he likes boobs without accusations of being an objectifying jerk?

Nope. Mostly because it's just one of those things about language and mixed company.

[Mordokai]

So it's not objectifying when men look at homosexual porn? Or that just because this is asking about women that somehow men objectifying other men or women objectifying other women isn't on topic?

The latter, really.

Er... Never heard of woman-on-woman porn? That usually feature straight women having sex together, because it sells?

Read what I wrote again more closely.

[Vella_Malachite]

No, you are not. On a related note,

Spoiler

Show

can't a guy say he likes boobs without accusations of being an objectifying jerk?

Heh - there's a guy in our friendship group a bit like that: nicest guy you'd ever want to meet, definitely isn't the "objectifying jerk" type, but will tell you, specifically, what he finds attractive in women, including more typically controversial attributes. We give him flak for it, but not seriously. It's not like he's intending it shallowly - I guess I make a difference between "this is what I find attractive" and "this is what a woman must look like for me to be interested."

I also know a lot of people who will, say, discuss the attractiveness of actors/actresses. Does it mean they're objectifying people? I don't think so. I don't see anything wrong with judging attractiveness. As long as you don't hurt the person you're evaluating.

I actually find "objectifying" very difficult to define: do you define it as "caring only about appearance"? But then, casual sex has been mentioned, and I see nothing wrong with that. I think the closest I can get is the unwillingness to see a gender as people - it's more about attitude, for me, than how they treat the person. Objectification is internal, not external.

[factotum]

Plus I can be weird in what offends me personally. For instance, I always get annoyed by clerks that ask how I am doing. How is it any of their business to ask about my private life? Or when I walk in a store and employees start saying "hi", I want to just leave the store (I've done it in the past) because I feel cornered.

I'm exactly the same, so I don't find that weird at all. Mind you, I also dislike it when a shop assistant walks over and says "Can I help you?" when I've literally just walked in the shop...sometimes I *have* actually walked out of shops because of too-pushy sales assistants!

[Lissou]

Read what I wrote again more closely.

I re-read what I quoted and I'm not sure what you mean. Or did you mean to read your other posts more closely?

EDIT: I went to re-read your other posts and I'm still not sure what you mean. Do you consider "gay porn" to mean "porn for gays?" For me, it's "porn featuring two people of the same gender". Most woman-on woman porn is intended for men as far as I know, so maybe you still consider it to be "hetero porn"?
/EDIT

I don't think saying you like breasts is objectifying. Hell, I make lots of comments about how fun they are to play with. I guess it's harder to consider it objectification when you're talking about your own, though...

I don't think objectifying is about finding someone beautiful. It's about not treating them as an equal, or even as a person at all. It's treating them like a tool, like an object (hence the name). If you consider people to be your possession, you're objectifying them, for instance.

[Coidzor]

I re-read what I quoted and I'm not sure what you mean. Or did you mean to read your other posts more closely?

EDIT: I went to re-read your post and I'm still not sure what you mean. Do you consider "gay porn" to mean "porn for gays?" For me, it's "porn featuring two people of the same gender". Most woman-on woman porn is intended for men as far as I know, so maybe you still consider it to be "hetero porn"?
/EDIT

Gay porn, in the lingo of the culture, as it were, refers to specifically male-on-male performance. Woman-on-Woman is referred to, generally, as lesbian porn despite not being marketed towards lesbians for the most part.

...I never thought I'd ever have cause to state that. My life is odd.

[Lissou]

But Mordokai didn't even use the words "gay porn" (I did). The exact phrase was "non-hetero porn".

[ZombyWoof]

Objectification is in the eye of the recipient. If a girl is angry because you say "I couldn't help but noticing but you have a really nice chest" then good for her. I know if someone randomly came up to me and said, "Sorry, I couldn't help but noticing, but you have a great butt" I wouldn't spend the day fuming and being upset about how that person clearly sees me as an object.

I'd spend the day glowing and feeling great about myself because I was so awesome (or at least there was a feature about me that was so awesome) that a total stranger had to compliment me on it.

That's just me though and maybe different responses are necessary... all I know is that I would NOT like hanging out with someone who would take something designed as a compliment and strip it down into a backhanded insult. I just don't appreciate people with that world view.