Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Darth Stabber's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    So in my current game I am having a hard tine explaining why metamagicbfeats are a good investment. I tried telling her that they add versitility to her list and make certain good spells great. I almost had her sold on quicken spell, until she saw the +4 spell level attached, and since she can't quicken anything yet, she opted no to. She is a lvl 7 tibbit dread necromancer, and the only metamagic feat she knows is natural spell (house ruled to allow spells in cat form for tibbits, still does not work while polymorphed). She can't figure out why anyone would want one aside from prc requirements. She is currently working on getting a slaymate purely for roleplay reasons. This is just really sad to me because I am not enforcing any cast time increases for spont casters, and she could atleast use extend or widen spell handily. Can someone help me explain to her she would want them?
    My homebrew
    Official spokesman of the totemist class for gestalt (and proud supporter of parenthetical asides (especially nested ones)). Author of a gestalt handbook
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Did you just put a gear shift on a lightsaber?
    Redneck laser swords only work in manual.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Jallorn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Well a good start would be to point out that Silent and Still allow you to cast while gagged and bound, respectively. Or while trying to be noticed, so you can cast a spell like, say, Bestow Curse, and no one will know it was you. Also suggest Invisible spell, which doesn't have any adjustments to the spell level, and is loads of fun when used creatively.

    Other people can better articulate the numerical advantages of the other metamagic feats.
    Last edited by Jallorn; 2011-04-25 at 12:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertier View Post
    A good background is like a skirt. Short enough to keep my interest, but long enough to cover the important bits.
    Quote Originally Posted by FistsFullofDice View Post
    Derailed in the best way, thank you good sir.
    My links:

    Avatar by Dogmantra

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Koury's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Enervation. Level 4; 1d4 negative levels.
    Energy Drain. Level 9; 2d4 negative levels.
    Split Ray Enervation. Level 6; 2d4 negative levels.

    See where I'm going? There are many things like this.
    I will NOT succumb to evil!
    ...Unless she's cute.
    _____________
    Avatar by Miss Nobody

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Banned
     
    BlueWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    More power!

    Granted the PH metamagic feats are not the greatest. Not that they are not good, but they lack flashyness. It can be nice for some spells to last a little longer sometimes, but it does not often look like it's worth all them spell levels.

    But how about offering her the metamagic feats from Libris Mortis? Look at the Fell metamagic feats. Fell animate is great for a Necromancer type, for example.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Sacrieur's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Still Spell will allow you to cast in armor without arcane spell failure.
    Last edited by Sacrieur; 2011-04-25 at 12:43 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Koury's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrieur View Post
    Still Spell will allow you to cast in armor without arcane spell failure.
    So will GP in most cases.
    I will NOT succumb to evil!
    ...Unless she's cute.
    _____________
    Avatar by Miss Nobody

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Banned
     
    faceroll's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Dread Necromancers using quicken spell take a full round to cast their spells.

    Most metamagic is useless without mitigation, or only useful at higher levels. Heighten Spell is great for sorcerers, that's about it. Quicken spell is good on wizards with 6th level spell slots.

    In general, metamagic feats just aren't worth your feat slots unless you are high level, a sorcerer, or are abusing metamagic mitigation.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Darth Stabber's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Dread necromancer already has armored mage (light), and given she already has a decent dex I doubt she would even want to move up.

    She's already going to a fair bit of effort to get a slaymate (which will be another post later), I would think that having any 1lvl metamagic feat would be a massive boon at that point (since slaymates reduce metamagic adjustment by 1).
    My homebrew
    Official spokesman of the totemist class for gestalt (and proud supporter of parenthetical asides (especially nested ones)). Author of a gestalt handbook
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Did you just put a gear shift on a lightsaber?
    Redneck laser swords only work in manual.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Darth Stabber's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by faceroll View Post
    Dread Necromancers using quicken spell take a full round to cast their spells.

    Most metamagic is useless without mitigation, or only useful at higher levels. Heighten Spell is great for sorcerers, that's about it. Quicken spell is good on wizards with 6th level spell slots.

    In general, metamagic feats just aren't worth your feat slots unless you are high level, a sorcerer, or are abusing metamagic mitigation.
    1)I am allowing quicken spell to work for spont casters.
    2)a slaymate is metamagic reduction (necro only, but that is 90% of her spell list).
    3)with a slaymate she can widen, extend, silent, or still any spell for free.
    My homebrew
    Official spokesman of the totemist class for gestalt (and proud supporter of parenthetical asides (especially nested ones)). Author of a gestalt handbook
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Did you just put a gear shift on a lightsaber?
    Redneck laser swords only work in manual.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Jack Zander's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Oakdale, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Tell her to grab any metamagic spell that only increases the level by 1 so that once she enters the PrC she can apply it to all of her spells free. Extend spell is a great one for buffs and debuffs, or even summons.
    Avatar generously created by ukuleleninja

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Imagination Land
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Stabber View Post
    She is a lvl 7 tibbit dread necromancer, and the only metamagic feat she knows is natural spell (house ruled to allow spells in cat form for tibbits, still does not work while polymorphed).
    Natural Spell is not a metamagic feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Zander View Post
    Tell her to grab any metamagic spell that only increases the level by 1 so that once she enters the PrC she can apply it to all of her spells free. Extend spell is a great one for buffs and debuffs, or even summons.
    Wait, what prestige class are you referring to? I haven't seen anyone mention anything about prestige classes....

    The metamagic reduction is coming from a slaymate, which is an undead creature from Libris Mortis.



    Personally, I think not using metamagic is a perfectly valid option. Let her learn to play the game on her own. I don't see why it's even bothering you.

    Anyway, if you want to give her advice on metamagic: Extend is pretty good if you cast buff spells. Empower (or maybe Widen) is good if you like blasting. Chain, Split Ray, and Quicken are great, but only when you're pretty high level. Fell Animate can be a lot of fun for a Necromancer, but you need to know when to use it.
    Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2011-04-25 at 01:58 AM.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

    "What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Wings of Peace's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Explain it through the magic of baking!

    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2011-04-25 at 02:28 AM.
    Doc Roc: We're going to eat ourselves.
    --------------------------------------
    Snazzy avatar courtesy of Rowsen!

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Uncanny Valley
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    I don't think you'll ever need more magic than the four free Suddens, as those may be applied to any spell at any moment, only once per day. You're a caster with limited spells per day anyway, so whatever.
    The regular Still Spell is far too slot-expensive to use just to ignore the armor casting penalry. There are better feats for that, unless you really love Full Plate.
    And regarding mitigation, what good sources of MM mitigation are there? Off the top of my head, I can only think of Thesis...
    MAKE LOVE, NOT SPAM!


    My PF Homebrew: Poisoner & Poisons, Fighter Fix, Monk 2.0, Wild Mage
    Campaign Setting: Heroica

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    SandShaper gives you 5 free sudden metamagics a day, with the ability to use them however you want. 5 maximize, 3 maximize 2 empowers, whatever. Good because you can use it in conjunction with orbs to get empowered maximized admixtured Orb of Fire/Lightning (with Born of the Three Thunders of course).

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Tell her that with circle magic, she becomes a near omnipotent spellcaster with the right feats. Course that's intentionally breaking the game, but if you're looking for more balance, it's an easy way to add metamagic without increasing spell level, and is available at lvl 10 if you work it right.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Doc Roc's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by faceroll View Post
    Dread Necromancers using quicken spell take a full round to cast their spells.

    Most metamagic is useless without mitigation, or only useful at higher levels. Heighten Spell is great for sorcerers, that's about it. Quicken spell is good on wizards with 6th level spell slots.

    In general, metamagic feats just aren't worth your feat slots unless you are high level, a sorcerer, or are abusing metamagic mitigation.
    This, with some enormous exceptions here and there. I'm afraid that your player may actually have a good understanding of what's going on after all. I do like many of the MM items, and the athenaeum of boccob is a great way to get bang for your buck.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    Explain it through the magic of baking!

    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    I think we're so used to MM mitigation that it's hard to remember a lot of people don't use it.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-04-25 at 12:38 PM.
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Thrice Dead Cat's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    Explain it through the magic of baking!

    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Assuming heavy cost reducers aren't on the table, this is a beautiful way to sell them on it. Further add that quicken spells is like tasting two cookies at the same time, but one has a little less to it!

    Also, this is now saved for future posters.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    I dunno, without reducers or mitigations the analogy becomes more like:

    "So, casting a spell is like baking cookies. Casting a quickened spell is like eating raw cookie dough - it's faster, but not as satisfying, and still takes all the ingredients. On the other hand, you can eat cookie dough while simultaneously cooking actual cookies in the oven.'
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I dunno, without reducers or mitigations the analogy becomes more like:

    "So, casting a spell is like baking cookies. Casting a quickened spell is like eating raw cookie dough - it's faster, but not as satisfying, and still takes all the ingredients. On the other hand, you can eat cookie dough while simultaneously cooking actual cookies in the oven.'
    ...You have won the internet now and forever.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Thrice Dead Cat's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I dunno, without reducers or mitigations the analogy becomes more like:

    "So, casting a spell is like baking cookies. Casting a quickened spell is like eating raw cookie dough - it's faster, but not as satisfying, and still takes all the ingredients. On the other hand, you can eat cookie dough while simultaneously cooking actual cookies in the oven.'
    Sir, I don't know who you are, but never could I imagine raw cookie dough being less satisfying than freshly cooked cookies. Equally, maybe, but never less.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    MammonAzrael's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    California, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Personally, I think not using metamagic is a perfectly valid option. Let her learn to play the game on her own. I don't see why it's even bothering you.
    I find myself agreeing with KillianHawkeye. Why does it matter if she takes any metamagic? On top of the fact that the feats aren't in any way desirable for every caster ever, she is a dread necromancer. She has plenty of valid, strong feats to choose from.

    If you really want to convince her that metamagic is a powerful option, then throw some NPCs at the party that use it. Use spells that she favors, except augmented, and see how she reacts.

    Also, I baked cookies the other day, and they are delicious. As was the cookie dough.
    My homebrew - If you use it, please let me know how it goes!

    Current Projects - Warlock rewrite

    1st place in GITP Monster Competition LV and LVI

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Sir, I don't know who you are, but never could I imagine raw cookie dough being less satisfying than freshly cooked cookies. Equally, maybe, but never less.
    Well, the salmonella poisoning you can get from eating raw eggs can put a bit of a damper on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    flabort's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    That's why you make snaps, and other eggless cookies.
    Personally, though, I don't like gingersnaps. Chocolatesnaps? Now those are good.
    See, eggless cookies are what you get with metamagic reducers, or +0 metamagic.
    Demilich avatar by Smuchmuch. Thank you VERY much!

    Extended Signature
    Awright, Supagoof, that's just awesome. Thanks!
    Spoiler
    Show


    Infernal avatar by Savana. Thanks!

    Nude version by SmuchMuch.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Darth Stabber's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Well, the salmonella poisoning you can get from eating raw eggs can put a bit of a damper on it.
    One of the many benefits of Vegan Cookies.

    On a more serious note, you guys may be right about not trying to force it on her. But there are a menagerie of reasons why she should aside from them being good.
    A) Slaymate, she wants one for roleplay purposes, and they are useless in combat. Figure she should get something out of her effort.
    B) She wants a PRC (though i don't think she wants a specific one), and auto-turns down ones that require metamagic.
    C) Complaining about spell duration running out too soon.
    My homebrew
    Official spokesman of the totemist class for gestalt (and proud supporter of parenthetical asides (especially nested ones)). Author of a gestalt handbook
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Did you just put a gear shift on a lightsaber?
    Redneck laser swords only work in manual.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    San Jose, CA

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Stabber View Post
    Can someone help me explain to her she would want them?
    The best way to explain to a player why some ability is good is to use it against them. Have her fight some metamagic-using enemy casters, this will get the wheels in her head spinning, no doubt.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Doc Roc's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Stabber View Post
    One of the many benefits of Vegan Cookies.

    On a more serious note, you guys may be right about not trying to force it on her. But there are a menagerie of reasons why she should aside from them being good.
    A) Slaymate, she wants one for roleplay purposes, and they are useless in combat. Figure she should get something out of her effort.
    B) She wants a PRC (though i don't think she wants a specific one), and auto-turns down ones that require metamagic.
    C) Complaining about spell duration running out too soon.
    Or throw an extend rod into the treasure. :|

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I dunno, without reducers or mitigations the analogy becomes more like:

    "So, casting a spell is like baking cookies. Casting a quickened spell is like eating raw cookie dough - it's faster, but not as satisfying, and still takes all the ingredients. On the other hand, you can eat cookie dough while simultaneously cooking actual cookies in the oven.'
    With MM reducers, it's like working in a patisserie. You can make a truly stunning number of cookies at a time, but you're either going to start to hate cookies really fast or discover that there's stiff competition in the pastry market.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-04-25 at 03:42 PM.
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Imagination Land
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: explaining the glory of metamagic to a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Or throw an extend rod into the treasure. :|
    Do this. Suddenly, everyone's happy! Shocking, I know.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

    "What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •