General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[Tavar]

Except that's not entirely true. Again, I refer you to Holden's little essay, which says that Samsara can be wrong, and that the PC's can break a prophecy fueled by Samsara.


When you attune to the artifact, your anima does show, but it decreases as normal. So, unless you're trying to attune under the eyes of a Immacualte monk or something, you should spend peripheral on attuning.

[Reynard]

...Isn't Samasara just the in-universe explanation for the role the ST plays?

[Yuki Akuma]

...Isn't Samasara just the in-universe explanation for the role the ST plays?

Players too.

[IcarusWings]

Your anima will show when you attune to the artifact. After the cooldown period it won't flare again unless you spend more peripheral motes.

Always attune artifacts with your peripheral motes. There is literally no down side.

Yeah, but then whenever you spend a singe peripheral mote, your Anima Banner goes to that amount + the attunement cost, which means you may very well go Totemic in no time at all.

That's what I thought it was anyway

[Tavar]

What? No...anima banners only look at how much you've spent in a scene, not how much you've spend your entire exalted life.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah, but then whenever you spend a singe peripheral mote, your Anima Banner goes to that amount + the attunement cost, which means you may very well go Totemic in no time at all.

That's what I thought it was anyway

Er except no not at all that's stupid?

Commited motes don't count towards your anima banner except for the moment you actually spend them.

[Kobold-Bard]

Yeah, but then whenever you spend a singe peripheral mote, your Anima Banner goes to that amount + the attunement cost, which means you may very well go Totemic in no time at all.

Crap, that's what I meant. IS that true?

Apologies, I misremembered

[Yuki Akuma]

Crap, that's what I meant. IS that true?

Apologies, I misremembered

No it isn't that's stupid and not how commited essence works at all.

[Kyeudo]

So you think that Samsara records everything you were going to do anyway?

So... how has this changed anything?

Before, my character's choices mattered. My character could change the course of nations, bring prosperity or ruin to millions, and wear any shirt I wanted to. Now? All those decisions are pre-scripted. If I tople the Realm, it is because Samsara said the Realm would fall to my armies. If I wear a blue shirt, it is because Samsara said I would wear a blue shirt.

Does it matter at the table? Not practically. I still have free will and the outcome of my actions is uncertain, but only because I have free will in the real world and the outcome of a die roll is uncertain. In game, though, my character has no real choice. Everything that happens one way and not another happens because Samsara said so. I can't tell Samsara "Screw You!" because Samsara said I would tell Samsara "Screw You!"

[Rockbird]

You seem to be missing the metaphysical point. When you go "lolno" and ignore them, Samsara said you would do that. The Maidens just get to look at the script, while you don't. Your actions are accounted for in Samsara, but you are merely ignorant of the fact.

Re-read the quotes from Holden. Or I could just pick out the relevant part...

This is entirely wrong.

(Okay, that seems meaner than intended. Still true though)

[vegetalss4]

I am going to focus on just one subject of this discussion for now, if thats okay with you.

You really think that someone with four perfect Virtues could take a walk down the streets of any city in Creation without suffering multiple Virtue compulsions? Especially when he will hear everything hearable, see everything seeable, and know everything it is possible to deduce from what he percieves? If he takes one step outside the Celestial Pleasure Dome, he will find himself dragged along by his Virtues until he gets caught in an ethical conundrum and forced to suppress his Virtues and his uberCharms. He pretty explicitly knows this to happen. This version of the Unconquered Sun is as pathetic as most people believe the Ebon Dragon to be.

While the Sun would have to act or suppress his virtues if he walked through a city in creation I believe that he could go there without having to suppress his virtues even once (if we ignore his oath of non interference). Also from his personal history it is clear that the reason he don't act isn't and has never been that he is afraid to lose his powers. Because you know what? creating a situation where he has to suppress a virtue is very hard to do because he always can choose to stick to his ideals his panoply charms mean that he is greatest when he does so.

[Yuki Akuma]

Before, my character's choices mattered. My character could change the course of nations, bring prosperity or ruin to millions, and wear any shirt I wanted to. Now? All those decisions are pre-scripted. If I tople the Realm, it is because Samsara said the Realm would fall to my armies. If I wear a blue shirt, it is because Samsara said I would wear a blue shirt.

Does it matter at the table? Not practically. I still have free will and the outcome of my actions is uncertain, but only because I have free will in the real world and the outcome of a die roll is uncertain. In game, though, my character has no real choice. Everything that happens one way and not another happens because Samsara said so. I can't tell Samsara "Screw You!" because Samsara said I would tell Samsara "Screw You!"

You are seriously misunderstanding what Samsara is.

[IcarusWings]

Er except no not at all that's stupid?

Commited motes don't count towards your anima banner except for the moment you actually spend them.

I knew that was what it was for committed motes, I just thought attunement worked slightly differently.

...

Well don't I look stupid now

*slinks away*

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Well don't I look stupid now

...

That wasn't my intent, sorry

My request is for another game I'm in, where flaring up like a madman would be bad, very bad (apparently).

[Xefas]

...but only because I have free will in the real world and the outcome of a die roll is uncertain.

Actually, unless we can somehow disprove causality, free will doesn't exist in the real world either. If logic exists at all, then we're just in a giant skinner box, reacting to billions of variables too discrete for the human mind to interpret. We'll always make the same choice, given the same variables.

[Guancyto]

(Okay, that seems meaner than intended. Still true though)

Hey, you need the full quote, there.

Examine the Maidens' stat block.

You see the Charm that lets them enforce their visions on Creation as a perfect effect?

No, you don't, because it isn't in there.

Glories: Maidens outlines the mechanical repercussions of samsara. To wit, consulting it imposes an irresistible compulsion on the Maidens to act in accordance with it and powers their Charms up while they're doing so.

That's it.

If Venus consults samsara and it says "you should **** PC X," she's going to try to **** PC X and will be able to bend the full power of her Charms toward shagging him. Note that this is an open-ended goal, so she can pursue it pretty much indefinitely at full power.

If Venus consults samsara and it says "PC X is going to whip his **** out in front of you right now," and she says "ha, you're going to whip your **** out in front of me" to the PC…

…well, nothing.

There's no Total Control effect exerted.

No Shaping occurs.

Nothing happens.

PC X's player, Bob, is free to declare that Bob gives Venus a very odd look and leaves. And his character will do that.

And Venus's mind will be totally blown because that's never happened before.

Edit: There's also the bit where the Maidens occasionally don't consult it when they should, just because they're afraid they'll get a result they don't like and be forced to carry it through. Which means even the Maidens can flip it the bird, and they're the height of being bound by destiny.

[Yuki Akuma]

You know, I wish Samsara was sentient, because trolling Venus with constant "you will **** person x" would be hilarious.

Especially if "x" include Ma-Ha-Suchi, the Ebon Dragon and Joe the Farmer.

[vegetalss4]

Actually, unless we can somehow disprove causality, free will doesn't exist in the real world either. If logic exists at all, then we're just in a giant skinner box, reacting to billions of variables too discrete for the human mind to interpret. We'll always make the same choice, given the same variables.

not necessary.
The reason for why is rather complex and involves Quantum Physics.

finally, even if we always make the same choice in the same situation with the same experience, that wouldn't mean we didn't have free will just that we are consistent.

[IcarusWings]

That wasn't my intent, sorry

My request is for another game I'm in, where flaring up like a madman would be bad, very bad (apparently).

Don't worry, I'm only joking around. I'm used to being made to look stupid compared to the fine minds on this forum.

(That's part of why I always attatch something along the lines of 'that's what I thought anyway' to any objective statement I make, so when I am inevitably proved wrong, hopefully people realise I'm just ignorant, rather than an ass)

[Yuki Akuma]

But what if they think you're an ignorant ass?

Edit: On second though, image leaching is bad, even if it's just an emote. Re-hosted.

[Kyeudo]

Erm, what? The applies only to mortals. And even then, only to non-heroic mortals. DB's and heroic mortals can affect fate a bit, and celestial exalts can say 'screw destiny'.

But they can't change Samsara. No one can.

You aren't a badass ninja if you take ESS. Trust me. You are a master of misdirection and avoiding being caught if you take ESS. Yes, that is part of being a ninja, but that doesn't make you a badass one, just a good one.

Same thing with Crane style. You don't become a great teacher by punching your students into sticky red paste, you become one by teaching them self control and not striking before they know the situation.

First Pulse stylists would like to give you a word or two on the subject. And by word they mean "beating". The Orgiastic Fugitive stylists would be offended, but they were too high to care.

Humor aside, what about Crane Style actually makes you a better teacher? Only one Charm in the whole style lets you help anyone learn anything and then not by much.

He doesn't walk down the streets of Creation though. If he did, there wouldn't be an Immaculate Faith. He stays inside of the CPD because it means he doesn't have to deal with his virtues and with what is going on outside. If he stopped supressing his Temperance, then maybe he'd go outside and start fixing things.

That's exactly my point. He doesn't go anywhere in Creation because if he did, he'd be screwed. His addiction to the Games of Divinity isn't what keeps him at the Pleasure Dome, it's his own retarded Charms.

Except that's not entirely true. Again, I refer you to Holden's little essay, which says that Samsara can be wrong, and that the PC's can break a prophecy fueled by Samsara.

Holden's essay does not say Samsara can be wrong. It makes an end run around the issue by saying that seeing something occur in Samsara doesn't mean your PCs can't do something else. That is a case of real life imposing itself upon the game. I can't tell you what you are going to do. I can't flawlessly predict it either. So if I tell you you are going to do something and you don't like it, nothing I do can stop you from doing it.

As an in-game concept, though, Samsara has never been wrong. There have been things the Maidens couldn't see within Samsara, but that doesn't mean they weren't there. It just means the Maidens couldn't see them. Having Samsara as the overscript is toxic to a setting about making choices and dealing with the consequences.

You are seriously misunderstanding what Samsara is.

Then explain it to me in a way that doesn't strip free will from everything in the setting.

Edit: There's also the bit where the Maidens occasionally don't consult it when they should, just because they're afraid they'll get a result they don't like and be forced to carry it through. Which means even the Maidens can flip it the bird, and they're the height of being bound by destiny.

That they don't look doesn't mean they flipped Samsara the bird. If one Maiden were to observe Samsara as another Maiden acted without consulting Samsara, they'd see that Samsara perfectly predicts the actions of the ignorant Maiden. The Ignorant Maiden is just unaware of what Samsara is predicting. She's a fool believing herself to have free will.

[Reynard]

But they can't change Samsara. No one can.

PC's can.

Samsara is just the pointless in-universe explanation for your gaming group.

[Yuki Akuma]

Samsara is like quantum foam. It's in many states at once and only collapses into a specific series of events if someone (the Maidens) looks at it.

That Yozi is such a big deal because if he woke up he'd look at all of it at once all the time and lock existence into predestination.

[vegetalss4]

That's exactly my point. He doesn't go anywhere in Creation because if he did, he'd be screwed. His addiction to the Games of Divinity isn't what keeps him at the Pleasure Dome, it's his own retarded Charms.

NO. That is not why he act as he does, he stay in the pleasure dome because he is addicted, if it was just his charms (which don't turn off at the drop off a hat like you seem to think) he would go out there anyway.
You know how I know that? because thats what he did in the one cannon situation where that has happenned, back with Prince Lashe.

[DragonSinged]

Then explain it to me in a way that doesn't strip free will from everything in the setting.

Well, the way I understand Samsara from reading it and whatnot is that it's not this script saying everything that will ever happen. It's this recording of what has happened. So, it doesn't say "PC X will do Y." It doesn't say anything until after PC X does Y, and then it records it.

So that's not to say that free will doesn't exist, that's not what Samsara is. Free will exists, PCs exert it, and then Samsara writes it down afterwards. Some people can peer into the future and see what Samsara wrote, but that doesn't mean that people didn't decide to do those things, and I guess looking into the future and seeing what Samsara wrote about PC's decisions potentially gives PCs a chance to change those decisions. In setting, this has never happened before, because in setting, there have never been PCs before. And, you know, PCs are special.

Anyways, that's what I'm getting from all this.

[Turalisj]

PC's can.

Samsara is just the pointless in-universe explanation for your gaming group.

This. Your group is Samsara. What is written in Samsara? That's your f***king game notes.

[Kyeudo]

Samsara is like quantum foam. It's in many states at once and only collapses into a specific series of events if someone (the Maidens) looks at it.

That Yozi is such a big deal because if he woke up he'd look at all of it at once all the time and lock existence into predestination.

That's as rediculous as Schrodinger's Cat.

[Yuki Akuma]

That's as rediculous as Schrodinger's Cat.

Except Samara is magic in a fictional setting that explicitly doesn't work like the real world.

[Guancyto]

This. Your group is Samsara. What is written in Samsara? That's your f***king game notes.

Which means that in all probability Yuki can, in fact, troll Venus like that. I'm not sure I actually buy that explanation, but it has its merits.

One thing to note is that he says that the Maidens have never seen samsara be wrong, which isn't to say that it can't be wrong. The key here is that the Maidens are compelled to prove samsara right. For the times they don't consult it... really, who knows?

[Tavar]

Yeah, it's almost as rediculous as the world being flat. Or gods and stuff actually existing in some form of bueracracy.

O WAIT!