General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[vegetalss4]

Which means Infernals get the best artifacts, cause they can always pick the best one.

yes except for the added drawback that a vitriol tainted artifact can be identified and thus can get you in trouble, whether this balances it out is up to the individual. Also in theory all artifact bonuses are equal on all things (in practice on the other hand some bonuses are better, but I don't think its enough to upset the balance.)

Also, what's a Footropolis aspected manse/demesne?

no idea.

[Lochar]

90% of the time, it's the base material that gets you into trouble, not the vitriol. Most of Creation can't tell the difference between tainted orichalcum and the regular stuff.

[vegetalss4]

90% of the time, it's the base material that gets you into trouble, not the vitriol. Most of Creation can't tell the difference between tainted orichalcum and the regular stuff.

good point, I was thinking more tainted jade contra normal jade.

[knightMARE]

For artifacts that come as a pair, such as razor claws or smashfists, would being an amputee, and as such only having one arm, mean you could pay less for the artifact, or less attunement since you would only need one?

[Indon]

away from books, but doesn't it say that thaumaturgy is just mimicking the least gods interactions with each other? in that case i'd theorize (and rule if i were st'ing the game) that somehow increasing your essence through thaumaturgy would make you become a god

It's invoking those interactions, actually, artificially. It's the Exalted version of natural science through exploiting How Stuff Works.

While there's the possibility of high-power Thaumaturgy out there, there is essentially no guidance on how to make it, so one homebrew's as good as another at this point.

Personally, I outlined additional, undiscovered arts and sciences, which simply exist for my players to find if they ever get interested in thaumaturgy.

For artifacts that come as a pair, such as razor claws or smashfists, would being an amputee, and as such only having one arm, mean you could pay less for the artifact, or less attunement since you would only need one?

What? That's not nearly awesome enough.

It means one attaches to a whip that is attached to the stump.

[Kylarra]

Considering you can't get an artifact rating between 0 and 1 noninclusive, I'd say no for the cost of smashfist and yes for the razor claws (1 dot same as short daiklave). The attunement cost, yes for both though, since it is 3 per.

[MickJay]

For artifacts that come as a pair, such as razor claws or smashfists, would being an amputee, and as such only having one arm, mean you could pay less for the artifact, or less attunement since you would only need one?

Less attunement, yes; as for smashfists, they are "always used as a pair", and their main utility is clinching (hard to do with one hand), so I'd say they're out (a claw would be fine).

[Psyborg]

Which means Infernals get the best artifacts, cause they can always pick the best one.

Also, what's a Footropolis aspected manse/demesne?

Jargon File: metasyntactic variable

Basically, "foo" is a wildcard, like "*" in some search engines. Foocubi refers to incubi and succubi. Potion of Foo Healing covers minor, least, lesser, and greater healing potions (plus whatever other modifiers you have). You get the idea.

The current usage, of course, is Footropolis = (Pa|Me)tropolis = Patropolis or Metropolis (what Alchemicals become at high Essence); though they're neither demesnes nor manses and have elemental cores rather than hearthstones, the function is at least broadly similar. Using the one-word term was pure laziness on my part, though I hadn't realized it'd cause confusion. Sorry about that.

-Psy

EDIT: Also, this (about amputees with smashfists/razor claws):

What? That's not nearly awesome enough.

It means one attaches to a whip that is attached to the stump.

So very, very this.

[Qaera]

I thought it was Foot•ropolis, that makes much more sense.

[Lix Lorn]

yes except for the added drawback that a vitriol tainted artifact can be identified and thus can get you in trouble, whether this balances it out is up to the individual. Also in theory all artifact bonuses are equal on all things (in practice on the other hand some bonuses are better, but I don't think its enough to upset the balance

Yes, but being able to pick and choose is terrific. You can take a vitriolic starmetal weapon and do massive damage with it, and a vitriolic moonsilver baneclaw for stupid defence... Whereas if anyone else wants variety, they need fivefold resonators.

Jargon File: metasyntactic variable

Basically, "foo" is a wildcard, like "*" in some search engines. Foocubi refers to incubi and succubi. Potion of Foo Healing covers minor, least, lesser, and greater healing potions (plus whatever other modifiers you have). You get the idea.

The current usage, of course, is Footropolis = (Pa|Me)tropolis = Patropolis or Metropolis (what Alchemicals become at high Essence); though they're neither demesnes nor manses and have elemental cores rather than hearthstones, the function is at least broadly similar. Using the one-word term was pure laziness on my part, though I hadn't realized it'd cause confusion. Sorry about that.

Oooh! Understood! I thought it might be that, but you said you hadn't done alchies yet. DXD

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes, but being able to pick and choose is terrific. You can take a vitriolic starmetal weapon and do massive damage with it, and a vitriolic moonsilver baneclaw for stupid defence... Whereas if anyone else wants variety, they need fivefold resonators.

Or... just paying twice the attunement cost.

At high Essence it becomes a laughable restriction.

[DrakeRaids]

6 motes can easily be the difference between life and death, specially since most games don't go past E5.Vitriol tainting is inane, and being able to pick and choose which bonuses your weapon gets (Or bracers, or armor, ect) is a massive bonus.

This is not balanced, but you have to understand, this is the same section that brought us wonderful things like demon ink tattoos, green iron heart, and the Hauberk of bells. Expecting anything sane out of it is silly.

I swear whoever wrote hell forged wonders must have been on crack.

[Cyborg Mage]

And the Phylactery Womb. NOBODY can forget the Phylactery Womb. No matter how much they want to.

[Lochar]

It's helltech, what were you expecting from the group with demon whores and blow?

[Sanguine]

6 motes can easily be the difference between life and death, specially since most games don't go past E5.Vitriol tainting is inane, and being able to pick and choose which bonuses your weapon gets (Or bracers, or armor, ect) is a massive bonus.

This is not balanced, but you have to understand, this is the same section that brought us wonderful things like demon ink tattoos, green iron heart, and the Hauberk of bells. Expecting anything sane out of it is silly.

I swear whoever wrote hell forged wonders must have been on crack.

Please note none of the things you mentioned are Hellforged Wonders. They are Infernal Relics. Hellforged Wonders are a specific subset of Infernal Relics, the Sapient ones that give their wielders Charms and influence their actions. This is an important distinction to make because at least one Charm specifies Hellforged Wonders in it's text.

[DrakeRaids]

Sorry. The Chapter where its all found is called "Wonders of the Demon Realm" so I tend to just staple wonders on the end of it all without thinking.

[Lix Lorn]

Or... just paying twice the attunement cost.

At high Essence it becomes a laughable restriction.

Believe it or not, I forgot you could do that.
But I'd always rather spend a point on a 5fold resonator than extra motes.

[Sanguine]

Believe it or not, I forgot you could do that.
But I'd always rather spend a point on a 5fold resonator than extra motes.

Well you need to make a Wits + Lore roll to do it. I forget at what difficulty.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well you need to make a Wits + Lore roll to do it. I forget at what difficulty.

Difficulty 3. If you fail, you drop the item, suffer a level of unsoakable lethal damage, and any hearthstones in it shatter. Botch it and the artifact might explode. If you don't botch it you can just try again, though.

On the other hand, Second Excellency.

[TheCountAlucard]

That, or just spending a Willpower to prevent the botch option. Hell, on anything where the option of botching is that catastrophic (I'm looking at you, Eye of Autochthon ), why not spend a Willpower?

yes except for the added drawback that a vitriol tainted artifact can be identified and thus can get you in trouble...

Also, can you clarify this?

[Yuki Akuma]

Also, can you clarify this?

He's under the mistaken assumption that people know what the hell Green Sun Princes are and what vitriol is.

Protip: they don't. Well some savants may know what vitriol is, but they wouldn't know that the magical materials can be tainted with it to make it more easily attuned by a type of Exalt no one has ever heard of.

[TheCountAlucard]

He's under the mistaken assumption that people know what the hell Green Sun Princes are and what vitriol is.

Protip: they don't. Well some savants may know what vitriol is, but they wouldn't know that the magical materials can be tainted with it to make it more easily attuned by a type of Exalt no one has ever heard of.

They may have flubbed everything else possible up, but you gotta admit, the Yozis did a great job of keeping the Green Sun Princes a secret.

[Indon]

He's under the mistaken assumption that people know what the hell Green Sun Princes are and what vitriol is.

On the other hand, just about everything GSP's do screams, "Anathema!" so it's not like they get a free pass on negative attention.

[Xefas]

On the other hand, just about everything GSP's do screams, "Anathema!" so it's not like they get a free pass on negative attention.

Well, that only really matters in places where the Immaculate Philosophy is prevalent, which isn't everywhere. Simply being recognizable as "Anathema" is a damn sight better than if the whole world could identify you as "Demonic-Hellspawn Yozi-Avatar Hatchling-Primordials". You might get a bit more widespread prejudice that way.

Also see: Green Sun Bullseyes.

[Yuki Akuma]

On the other hand, just about everything GSP's do screams, "Anathema!" so it's not like they get a free pass on negative attention.

The fact that your orichalcum daiklave is vitriol-tainted won't change anything, though. Because they'll just see the orichalcum daiklave.

[Indon]

Well, that only really matters in places where the Immaculate Philosophy is prevalent, which isn't everywhere. Simply being recognizable as "Anathema" is a damn sight better than if the whole world could identify you as "Demonic-Hellspawn Yozi-Avatar Hatchling-Primordials". You might get a bit more widespread prejudice that way.

Also see: Green Sun Bullseyes.

Where the Immaculate Philosophy isn't prevalent, extensive Solar charm use isn't likely to change that. But extensive Infernal charm use might put the fear of the Dragons into the locals. If I'm not mistaken, Anathema are already considered demons, so not too far off the mark for GSP's, and even where the Immaculate doctrine isn't taken seriously, it is still often known.

Infernal charm use is inherently disturbing and icky. It's not as bad as Abyssal charm use, certainly, and it makes sense that the Infernals aren't as far along as the Abyssals on the stigma track, considering their mission isn't to obliterate everything.

But if a GSP starts using essence, people aren't going to be as friendly with them as with an equivalent Solar or Lunar in the same situation - and if they aren't using Essence, well, in much of Creation Exalts can pass themselves off as god-bloods or enlightened mortals anyway.

[Yuki Akuma]

Not all Infernals charms are inherently icky. Many of them are just weird, and some of them are basically indistinguishable from Terrestrial/Lunar/Solar charm use.

And no one cares that your anima is green.

[Xefas]

Yes, I'm sure when the Defiler walks into town and starts putting people limbs back on, miraculously cures all of their sicknesses, transmutes some dirt into the equivalent of a few billion dollars worth of Jade, and then telekinetically beats up that Behemoth that's been terrorizing them, it'll be all pitchforks and torches.

[Yuki Akuma]

According to Holden, many of the charms are written to seem horrible and alien at first glance, but then you realise "Wait, this doesn't have to be evil or alien at all" after thinking about it for a bit.

Principle-Invoking Onslaught, for instance. The default and other examples are things like disintegrating white fire, unearthly sounds that burst bowels, golden fog that turns people into gold and new colours that erase mass.

But you could also use it to simply throw perfectly ordinary burning orange fire, or spears of rock jutting from the ground, or launch weapons that appear from nowhere and vanish after they hit. There's no reason to be alien and weird, that's just how She Who Lives In Her Name likes to do things.

[Lord Raziere]

Not all Infernals charms are inherently icky. Many of them are just weird, and some of them are basically indistinguishable from Terrestrial/Lunar/Solar charm use.

And no one cares that your anima is green.

yea, Secrets and Woods already have that color.

that and you can use Selfishness is Power to help people out, those desert Cecelyne cockroach swarm charms are basically for helping starving people, and as for Cecelyne debt charms you can just order the person to do whatever they want in return for giving them this boon, and that charm that makes people speak old realm could be useful for bridging cultural gaps and such to allow for negotiations to end wars.

basically, if you think outside the box, you can easily turn Infernal Charms on their head to subvert their Yozi's intentions.