General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[Tavar]

Where is 90% of Creation wiped out? If that's the Three Sphere's Cataclysm, the 90% number is pure fanon. Hell, any number is.

As for Pro's, you forgot the fact that they're no longer under the thumbs of those crazy overlords.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Primordial War was certainly not a good plan. But it was the only workable plan they had.

You have to understand what life under the Primordials was like. These were inhuman monsters utterly unable to consider that other beings could possibly matter. Some of them killed billions simply because it wasn't their turn at the Games of Divinity.

All those cons? Worth It.

[Spamotron]

From what I understand "It seemed like a good idea at the time" is practically the official motto of everyone ever in the history of the setting.

[jindra34]

I think its some part of being not a good idea and some part being that it got taken too far. After Gaia and Autocthon (without either the whole thing probably would never have gotten off the ground) seemed to already have a plan for what to do after, and then several Primordials got killed.

[Turalisj]

The big problem is that the Solars scared off Autocthon, who could have studied the Exalts and realized that they weren't supposed to be so crazy. He could have then tried working with Lytek and the Twilights to have the Great Curse cleaned from the Exalts.

[TheCountAlucard]

Being relatively new here however, I really don't know about any of these melee/Lunar combos. Care to expand?

Let's assume you're starting with a starmetal grand goremaul, Melee 5, and a three-dot Melee specialty for it. Let's tack on a fivefold harmonic adapter so you don't pay double for the goremaul, and snag a pair of orichalcum hearthstone bracers as well. Okay, your physicals are going to be your primary, so 5 Strength and 5 Dex are both feasible.

Now, here's your 2-mote killer. Hungry Tiger Technique and One Weapon, Two Blows. Assuming you have an Overdrive pool (easy enough, now that the Dawn Solution's out), you don't even have to have them in a Combo.

Hungry Tiger Technique doubles your net hits on the attack roll. Let's say the opponent didn't perfect, and you scored 3 over his DV. An effective 6 hits + 2 from bracers + 19L base damage + Strength 5 = 32L, Piercing. And thanks to One Weapon, Two Blows, you're effectively hitting them with it twice.

Though they do actually have to be thrown into something exactly that many yards away.

Not quite; if you want to give them the full damage, they have to be thrown into something exactly zero yards away. They only take damage for every yard they would have traveled, had they not crashed into something.

[jindra34]

The big problem is that the Solars scared off Autocthon, who could have studied the Exalts and realized that they weren't supposed to be so crazy. He could have then tried working with Lytek and the Twilights to have the Great Curse cleaned from the Exalts.

Actually MoEP: Alchemicals suggests that Autocthon already knew about the Great Curse, and fled because he feared what other effects it might have. He certainly know they were lossing it. And the Great Curse resulted from Primordials getting killed.

[Qaera]

How would the First Age have been if there was no Great Curse?

[Gensh]

The Primordial War was certainly not a good plan. But it was the only workable plan they had.

You have to understand what life under the Primordials was like. These were inhuman monsters utterly unable to consider that other beings could possibly matter. Some of them killed billions simply because it wasn't their turn at the Games of Divinity.

All those cons? Worth It.

Eh. I'd say putting the structural integrity of the universe at stake isn't the best of gambles, nor is letting your minions senselessly mutilate surrendered foes who are also the only ones who could potentially fix future problems.

[Feriority]

It occurs to me that Anathema is an open-source project, and after finals next week I will have time to spend on things like cool open-source projects. I haven't looked at how it's written yet, but based on the way it handles variant rules for character creation (specifically, I noticed that 2nd edition has options for Solars and Solars(revised) using errata) it looks like it wouldn't be too hard to add a 2nd edition(houserules you really should be using) rule set.

Building my character in Reynard's game turned up two important differences: the five free Excellencies Reynard gave us, and survivability changes (free -0 health levels equal to essence; free ox-bodies equal to stamina). The thing is, Anathema doesn't seem to track health levels anywhere that I can see, and ox-body seems to be broken right now (I couldn't take multiple purchases of it, and I couldn't choose anything other than a -0 health level with it).

Is there interest in a (fixed houserules) rule set for Anathema, and if so, what changes (other than the survivability mentioned above, which doesn't seem to be reflected in Anathema anyway) would people like to see? I'm not sure custom charm trees would be within the easy scope I'm looking at, though if there's a very compelling variant I might take a look at that too and see what I can do.

Edit: I'd ask the current developers for their thumbs up before doing any of this, but I'd like to see if there's community interest before asking them, and this thread is my only knowledge of the community outside of Keychain of Creation.

[Yuki Akuma]

Better. No cracy god-kings torturing innocent mortals for the sake of making music and so on.

No Usurpation either.

Basically take all the good things (higher life expectency, safety from roaming behemoths and advanced technology increasing leisure time) and remove about half the bad.

[Tavar]

They didn't senselessly mutilate them. Only so much that the titans wouldn't be able to simply escape their prison easily.

[The_Snark]

Where is 90% of Creation wiped out? If that's the Three Sphere's Cataclysm, the 90% number is pure fanon. Hell, any number is.

Actually, that number is taken from a sidebar in Dreams of the First Age, which notes that those who lived through the Primordial War had a maddening sense that their pre-Cataclysm memories were full of holes. Their own personal histories were intact, but whenever they tried to remember what the world was like before, they had the feeling they'd forgotten nine-tenths of it.

It shouldn't be taken as a hard-and-fast percentage, because "how much stuff can't I remember?" is a terrible measuring stick, but the number is not a fan invention.

[Mr.Bookworm]

How would the First Age have been if there was no Great Curse?

Literally impossible to say. The Great Prophecy suggests that it would have been a never-ending Golden Age, but that was affected by other factors.

Most likely, in my opinion? It would have been a slower, more insidious natural version of what the First Age became. The Great Curse doesn't create character flaws, it only exacerbates them, and for the Exalted, it's pretty easy to tack "power-mad" to the start of "immortal god-king".

Eh. I'd say putting the structural integrity of the universe at stake isn't the best of gambles, nor is letting your minions senselessly mutilate surrendered foes who are also the only ones who could potentially fix future problems.

From an Exalted perspective? They have Gaia and Autochthon on their side, the two that would be the greatest help if you needed to muck about with Creation. Not to mention the gods who actually run the place. Who else among the Yozis do you need?

EDIT: My personal fanon about the Three Spheres Cataclysm is that it wiped out what I call the "implied spaces" (Walter Jon Williams says hi). We know from the Faraway that the passage of Primordials can create things, so why not in Creation? So there were pockets of warped, twisted space inside of Creation, aspected to whatever Primordial accidentally created it. This is where a lot of the battles of the Primordial War took place, on their "home ground" so to speak. When SWLIHN struck, she erased what was in her power to erase.

[Xefas]

Same with Alucard. Can you give any examples? Also only 2 motes if you're a Solar.

I didn't just mean "motes". I also meant "character generation resources". You're spending 6 charms to do some damage. That's the equivalent of something like 18 bonus points, or 48 experience. That's stuff you could be spending on other things.

Yes, 60B or 70B or whatever is a lot of damage, but it's also more damage than you really need. A simple Grand Goremaul for 3bp, and maybe Hungry Tiger Technique, or perhaps One Weapon Two Blows and Flashing Edge of Dawn (either way, only 1 mote spent), will threaten enough damage that if you don't perfect it, you're choosing between "Dead" or "Horribly Crippled".

It may not kill with the absolute certainty that Crashing Wave Throw does, but you also end up with more resources to spend on defensive or utility charms. Having 12bp not spent on your kill combo means another 40 motes in your pool or whatever you decide to spend it on.

[Gensh]

They didn't senselessly mutilate them. Only so much that the titans wouldn't be able to simply escape their prison easily.

Even that's not necessarily required. While ending the war definitively was important, there was no need to imprison the Primordials afterward - they made the Empyrean Chaos surrender and swear binding oaths - surely it would have been just as simple to merely restrain them from continuing to fight and kill. Doing so would have prevented a whole lot of the bad stuff that went down in the setting. Plus, I can't find the source right now, but I seem to remember something about the Solars being excessively stabby when locking them up, and that's part of why the Yozis are so deranged. I'll see if I can't find it.

[Turalisj]

There's two rules in Exalted:

1) It was a good idea at the time

2) There's no kill like overkill

[Reynard]

There's two rules in Exalted:

1) It was a good idea at the time

2) There's no kill except overkill

Fixed. Really.

[Tavar]

Considering how much the Yozi are still able to do, even imprisoned, and I don't think that would have worked.

And, as far as I know, the Primordials weren't noted as being extremely stable before their imprisonment.

[Sanguine]

How would the First Age have been if there was no Great Curse?

It's hard to say. Not everything "bad" about the First Age was necessarily a result of the Great Curse after all. For instance: Many of the writers have gone on record as saying it's there opinion that the Great Geass wasn't.

Exaltation also does not take morality into account, as often as it make great heroes it makes horrible monsters. This is as true with or without the Curse. Even among the heroes, heroism sometimes comes at a cost, sometimes you must sacrifice something, even your own morality, for the greater good.

Also you have 300 near-Immortal God-Kings running about they are going to disagree about something eventually and it won't be pleasant for anyone involved, especially not the mortals. Won't anyone think about the mortals.

However while it is hard to say exactly how it would turn out it would probably be better to at least some degree.

[golentan]

I know they went stab-happy towards the end. As I recall, my Yozi crush (SWLiHN) had never even been considered one of the "bad ones" (siding with the primordials because it was the orderly thing to do and she owed allegiance to the Empyreal Chaos's hierarchy). She demonstrated the ability and desire to fit into the new hierarchy, going so far as to put forth a prospectus on unbreakable oaths she and many of the others could sign and ways they could support exalted and divine rule post-war without continued conflicts, because the war was untidy and she honestly wanted to help out with creation without further untidiness. The response? *Mutilate* Get into malfeas you ****.

The reason the Three Spheres Cataclysm worked at all is because she was so helpful and peaceful in surrender that they didn't bother watching to see if she was up to something while talking about how to mutilate her and ignore her trying to be helpful.

Disclaimer: I could be misremembering this, and as always my opinions on her are tainted by my massive crush on the lady, but still.

[Gensh]

Considering how much the Yozi are still able to do, even imprisoned, and I don't think that would have worked.

And, as far as I know, the Primordials weren't noted as being extremely stable before their imprisonment.

That's just it: they're not stable by mortal standards, but they can be trusted absolutely to act within themselves. When the Exalted defeated the Holy Tyrant, they did what was literally impossible. They could have used this to catalyze a change in all the Primordials, as it was in the nature of their King to do such. That was one of his themes, so much so that he wanted vitriol elementals, which would catalyze change in all of Creation. Instead, they forced his rebirth as a prison, a symbol of stability, locking all the Primordials into the mindset of hatred and revenge.
...
And that's why I'm an anti-reclamation loyalist. Make Gurren Lagann Charms using Viridian Legend Exoskeleton as a base, etc, etc, and suddenly everything's better than ever before. That simple.

[golentan]

And that's why I'm an anti-reclamation loyalist.

And suddenly I have a term that adequately sums up my opinions on the yozis. Thank you sir.

[Gensh]

Hm. I can't find what I was looking for, but MoEP: Infernals does specify that Cecelyne's fetich was vivisected right in front of her. I mean, the frog is braindead and is being used to train med students. What the Solars did is just kind of dickery.

[TheCountAlucard]

Hm. I can't find what I was looking for, but MoEP: Infernals does specify that Cecelyne's fetich was vivisected right in front of her. I mean, the frog is braindead and is being used to train med students. What the Solars did is just kind of dickery.

Chapter 1 also seems to assume that all the Yozis were forced to undergo fetich death, which is explicitly not the case. Make of that what you will.

[The_Snark]

The thing you have to remember is, the Exalted didn't exactly know how to bind mind-bogglingly powerful demiurge forces of nature. They'd never done it before. If they could have controlled the changes in the Primordials and sculpted them into docile beings rather than rabid broken things seething with spite and resentment, they probably would have done it. But they didn't know how to do that, and they probably still don't- it's not like they had very many subjects to experiment on.

From Sacheverell's example (and possibly others), they knew that fetich-death and carving up a Primordial's soul-hierarchy could cripple it, so that's what they did. They did not use a light touch; you don't take chances when imprisoning a being that could wipe out continents and kill billions if you mess up.

I'm not trying to argue that this justified everything, or that it was the right thing to do; I'm saying that, as is often the case with Exalted, labeling one side as Wrong and the other as Right is kind of a narrow view.

[Gensh]

I'm not trying to argue that this justified everything, or that it was the right thing to do; I'm saying that, as is often the case with Exalted, labeling one side as Wrong and the other as Right is kind of a narrow view.

MALFEAS IS ALWAYS RIGHT ... ALLCAPS

[Xefas]

MALFEAS IS ALWAYS RIGHT

Its a social-charm upgrade to Green Sun Nimbus Flare which perfectly parries arguments by rendering them invalid via lighting the other person on fire with nuclear radiation.

[The_Snark]

I figured it was just a Pyrian Charm. I'm sure She has one sort of like that.

[Xefas]

I'm sure She has one sort of like that.

Nah, that's a Malfeas thing too. From my charm thread:

Stoic-but-Sensitive Bookish-Type-Infatuating Stance

Spoiler

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Stoic-but-Sensitive Bookish-Type-Infatuating Stance
Cost: 4m; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: By Pain Reforged, Insignificant Embers Intuition, Beauty Without Malice

On the outside, Malfeas is a mass of calloused layers, eternally bleeding bitterness and seething anger. On the inside, however, he is a beautiful dancer full of hope, shame, and dutiful responsibility.

Brainy chicks eat that stuff up.

This charm supplements any action to help another character who would have a higher dice pool than you on a roll to do Math (with a minimum of at least 5 dice), not counting external things like bonuses from items, stunts, and non-permanent charms. This action could be as simple as picking up something they've dropped, or as dynamic as charging in front of a raging Behemoth to use Defend Other on them.

After performing this action, they have the option to immediately gain a positive intimacy towards you with a connotation of their choice (or upgrade a currently existing intimacy with the following effects). This intimacy forges a magical bond between the two individuals. Firstly, any action to aid you automatically qualifies for a use of a Compassion Channel for them.

Secondly, any influence that would force or convince them to harm or betray you in some way becomes Obvious to their senses, and they may spend one Compassion channel to make doing such things an Unacceptable Order for the rest of the scene.

Finally, when the infatuated character successfully performs a 2 or 3-die stunt on an action to help you with something, framed in the context of using their infatuation to aid them, they may choose to regain one spent Compassion Channel in lieu of any normal stunt rewards.

Explicitly telling an effected character that you return their feelings instantly breaks the effects of this charm over them. Being stoic and unapproachable is what makes you so unspeakably hot.