General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[Tael]

Hmm, now that I look at the errata'd version of One Weapon 2 Blows, it also seems way too good, especially as the first charm in the tree.

Also, our group has been using the Armorium for weapons, as the crazy damage you get from a Grand Goremaul and the like is just ridiculous. Good idea? Bad?

One further note: Without Grand Killsticks like the goremaul, is melee still "Perfect or die"? Say if one was using the Armorium Grand Daiklave*? Or a more speed oriented weapon like the Reaper Daiklave**?


* (Speed 6 Accuracy 1 Damage 12L/4 Defense 3 Rate 2 Minimums 3 Cost 3 Attune 8 Tags 2, O, R)
**(Speed 4 Accuracy 3 Damage 5L Defense 0 Rate 3 Minimums 2 Cost 2 Attune 5 Tags None)


EDIT: Grr, after all my work formatting that it doesn't recognize spaces! Silly me. Currently making readable.

[TheCountAlucard]

One further note: Without Grand Killsticks like the goremaul, is melee still "Perfect or die"?

Quite so, sadly.

Say if one was using the Armorium Grand Daiklave? Or a more speed oriented weapon like the Reaper Daiklave?

User's strategy is going to be different, but overall, it's not going to help; looking at the Grand Daiklave, it's still pretty much perfect-or-die. The strategy for Reaper Daiklave, on the other hand, will be to ping the opponent to death.

[Kylarra]

Yeah, Melee is still perfect or die. Slightly lower base threshold, but still there.

[Sanguine]

Nah, that's a Malfeas thing too. From my charm thread:

Stoic-but-Sensitive Bookish-Type-Infatuating Stance

Spoiler

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Stoic-but-Sensitive Bookish-Type-Infatuating Stance
Cost: 4m; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: By Pain Reforged, Insignificant Embers Intuition, Beauty Without Malice

On the outside, Malfeas is a mass of calloused layers, eternally bleeding bitterness and seething anger. On the inside, however, he is a beautiful dancer full of hope, shame, and dutiful responsibility.

Brainy chicks eat that stuff up.

This charm supplements any action to help another character who would have a higher dice pool than you on a roll to do Math (with a minimum of at least 5 dice), not counting external things like bonuses from items, stunts, and non-permanent charms. This action could be as simple as picking up something they've dropped, or as dynamic as charging in front of a raging Behemoth to use Defend Other on them.

After performing this action, they have the option to immediately gain a positive intimacy towards you with a connotation of their choice (or upgrade a currently existing intimacy with the following effects). This intimacy forges a magical bond between the two individuals. Firstly, any action to aid you automatically qualifies for a use of a Compassion Channel for them.

Secondly, any influence that would force or convince them to harm or betray you in some way becomes Obvious to their senses, and they may spend one Compassion channel to make doing such things an Unacceptable Order for the rest of the scene.

Finally, when the infatuated character successfully performs a 2 or 3-die stunt on an action to help you with something, framed in the context of using their infatuation to aid them, they may choose to regain one spent Compassion Channel in lieu of any normal stunt rewards.

Explicitly telling an effected character that you return their feelings instantly breaks the effects of this charm over them. Being stoic and unapproachable is what makes you so unspeakably hot.

That is great. If we ever get another of those Exalted in High School games on the boards I've gotta ask if I can use this Charm.

[Tael]

Not going to help; looking at the Grand Daiklave, it's still pretty much perfect-or-die. The strategy for Reaper Daiklave, on the other hand, will be to ping the opponent to death.

Well, with an Armorium Grand Daiklave instead of an original Grand Goremaul, you lose piercing, 4 damage, and gain 1 speed. I also find some of the rest a bit unlikely (Hearthstone Braces on a melee based Build? 5 Str would leave you with 1 stamina, which is turning the game into perfect or die, and I've never even heard of that Harmonizer), turning the 32L Piercing into 21-24L non piercing. Which is only going to be like 11 or so damage dice against decent soak.

Also, since all of the Armorium Grand Gore____ are acc -1 and def -3, you're unlikely to even hit against an opponent with a good parry, and your own defenses will be pathetic.

[Turalisj]

That is great. If we ever get another of those Exalted in High School games on the boards I've gotta ask if I can use this Charm.

I would say you could try my game, but we're near capacity as it is.

[TheCountAlucard]

Hearthstone Braces on a melee based Build?

What's wrong with that?

5 Str would leave you with 1 stamina...

...assuming you haven't bought one or more of your other Attributes up with bonus points, or utilized any of a dozen other ways to start with a high Strength...

...and I've never even heard of that Harmonizer

Fivefold Harmonic Adapter's in Wonders of the Lost Age, a one-dot artifact that sticks onto another artifact, allowing you to attune to it normally regardless of whatever magical material it is.

Which is only going to be like 10 damage dice against half decent soak.

If you're getting hit at all (let alone being dealt damage), you're already in hot water. Wound penalties can be devastating, and that's not counting other stuff like poisons on the weapon, various bad touch effects, et cetera.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Also, since all of the Armorium Grand Gore____ are acc -1 and def -3, you're unlikely to even hit against an opponent with a good parry, and your own defenses will be pathetic.

Doesn't matter. You'll be activating your paranoia combo every action, and then once you mote tap your opponent out, you'll be using your perfect attack combo to insta-splatter them.

Grand goremauls are useful for paranoia combat, but not absolutely necessary.

[Tael]

What's wrong with that?

Just seems kind of wasteful. I mean, you're not going to be utilizing the dodge part, which is kind of the bigger part.

...assuming you haven't bought one or more of your other Attributes up with bonus points, or utilized any of a dozen other ways to start with a high Strength...

Well, yeah, true. 5 Str is probably very reasonable.

Fivefold Harmonic Adapter's in Wonders of the Lost Age, a one-dot artifact that sticks onto another artifact, allowing you to attune to it normally regardless of whatever magical material it is.

Ah, wow, that's really good.

If you're getting hit at all (let alone being dealt damage), you're already in hot water. Wound penalties can be devastating, and that's not counting other stuff like poisons on the weapon, various bad touch effects, et cetera.

I don't really see this. A -1 or 2 penalty isn't going to make you lose the fight you were previously going to win, I don't even know of any bad touch effects outside of SMAs or a few CMAs.

All in all it's still just maybe 15 dice of damage, and 3 Health levels is far from perfect or die, especially when you use Ox-Bodies = to stamina.

In my experience, combat is Exalted has been dangerous, but nowhere near perfect or die. Only one of the players in my game actually has a perfect, and he doesn't even have it in a combo.

Doesn't matter. You'll be activating your paranoia combo every action, and then once you mote tap your opponent out, you'll be using your perfect attack combo to insta-splatter them.

Grand goremauls are useful for paranoia combat, but not absolutely necessary.

Does anyone actually play like this??

If my players tried to use a paranoia combo every turn, they would be Willpower tapped before the second fight. How do players generate enough WP to do this?

[Kylarra]

exalted paranoia combat assumes you can get your 2die stunt on the attack and defense, so 1wp+4m per "cycle".

[Tael]

exalted paranoia combat assumes you can get your 2die stunt on the attack and defense, so 1wp+4m per "cycle".

But, how? I mean, 2 die stunts are not that common in my games at least, happening maybe 1 every 2 rounds. Is that a lot less common than normal?

[DrakeRaids]

But, how? I mean, 2 die stunts are not that common in my games at least, happening maybe 1 every 2 rounds. Is that a lot less common than normal?

There are charms to increase stunt ratings

[Qaera]

If you get into the description, 2d is not hard. 1d is just anything more than "I attack", sooo...

[TheCountAlucard]

I mean, you're not going to be utilizing the dodge part, which is kind of the bigger part.

Sure you are! The Melee perfect has the gaping hole in that it doesn't work if you don't have a weapon in your hand, plus the fact that it's still vulnerable to sneak attacks in a way that SAM doesn't truly patch; you can always dodge, if you've got SSE and RST. Might as well go ahead and pump Dodge as well.

I don't really see this. A -1 or 2 penalty isn't going to make you lose the fight you were previously going to win, I don't even know of any bad touch effects outside of SMAs or a few CMAs.

Your opponent has a bunch of mutations that makes him bigger and badder? Order-Affirming Blow leaves him wondering why he spent all those years in the Wyld. And that's off the top of my head.

and 3 Health levels is far from perfect or die

Then it's ping death.

Does anyone actually play like this?

I've been trying to avoid it, as well as that dreadful mindset, but then again, my ST's been running a game for our old 400-xp characters again...

If my players tried to use a paranoia combo every turn, they would be Willpower tapped before the second fight. How do players generate enough WP to do this?

Stunting. Charms. Stunting and Charms.

Sorry.

But, how? I mean, 2 die stunts are not that common in my games at least, happening maybe 1 every 2 rounds. Is that a lot less common than normal?

A 1-die stunt is simply being descriptive. A 2-die stunt is descriptive in a way that uses the environment. You can generate a 2-die stunt every action.

[Kylarra]

But, how? I mean, 2 die stunts are not that common in my games at least, happening maybe 1 every 2 rounds. Is that a lot less common than normal?

It depends on the ST, but a reading of the rules implies that simply interacting with the environment will generate a 2 dice stunt.

[Mr.Bookworm]

But, how? I mean, 2 die stunts are not that common in my games at least, happening maybe 1 every 2 rounds. Is that a lot less common than normal?

Paranoia combat is extremely high optimization, rules as written Exalted. The main problem with this, and why you can't just dismiss it as theoretical optimization, it's quite possible to get to a situation where you need paranoia combat stuff to just survive. It is, in fact, the logical extrapolation of Exalted combat mechanics. And you can't just fix it with a single thing, as the entire system is incredibly shaky and balanced on a variety of different mechanics. The developers likened it to an elephant standing on a bunch of thin poles. Change one of them, and it'll fall off.

Also, by RAW, a 2-die stunt is just a description that includes the environment. Not that hard to get.

[Tael]

There are charms to increase stunt ratings

I know there are charms to increase dice, but what charms increase ratings?

If you get into the description, 2d is not hard. 1d is just anything more than "I attack", sooo...

I guess I'm just stingy then. Re-reading the stunting section, I can see that something as simple as "I Flip over the table and stab him between the shoulderblades" is 2 dice, but there's no way that that should be more than 1 dice IMO.

EDIT: Blarg, too many people posting. Updating now.

[DrakeRaids]

I know there are charms to increase dice, but what charms increase ratings?

Lions Roar Recovery, Selfishness is Power, Tragic Love Amusement, Underworld Executioner Stance....

[Tael]

Paranoia combat is extremely high optimization, rules as written Exalted. The main problem with this, and why you can't just dismiss it as theoretical optimization, it's quite possible to get to a situation where you need paranoia combat stuff to just survive. It is, in fact, the logical extrapolation of Exalted combat mechanics. And you can't just fix it with a single thing, as the entire system is incredibly shaky and balanced on a variety of different mechanics. The developers likened it to an elephant standing on a bunch of thin poles. Change one of them, and it'll fall off.


Also, by RAW, a 2-die stunt is just a description that includes the environment. Not that hard to get.

What negative consequences does using the Armorium, Ox-Bodies = to Stam, and harder stunting have? Not trying to be aggressive here, just curious.

Sure you are! The Melee perfect has the gaping hole in that it doesn't work if you don't have a weapon in your hand, plus the fact that it's still vulnerable to sneak attacks in a way that SAM doesn't truly patch; you can always dodge, if you've got SSE and RST. Might as well go ahead and pump Dodge as well.

I can see that. Very expensive if you want to do non-combat stuff though.

Your opponent has a bunch of mutations that makes him bigger and badder? Order-Affirming Blow leaves him wondering why he spent all those years in the Wyld. And that's off the top of my head.

Oh, so by bad touch you mean debuffs, I see.

Then it's ping death.

exceeding soak by 15 is ping death?

I've been trying to avoid it, as well as that dreadful mindset, but then again, my ST's been running a game for our old 400-xp characters again...

Has the game been working well so far?

Stunting. Charms. Stunting and Charms.

I must find these charms!

Lions Roar Recovery, Selfishness is Power, Tragic Love Amusement, Underworld Executioner Stance....

I can guess where the last one is from, but sources on the others?

[TheCountAlucard]

exceeding soak by 15 is ping death?

Bleargh, misread your post (somehow) as just dealing 3 damage.

Still, high-end Exalted combat still works out in a very small number of ways.

1) You hit the opponent with some status effect that he hasn't bought a defense against (for one reason or another) that utterly ruins him with little to no chance of resisting.
2) You perfect until one of you runs out of motes, and then:
a) You hit the opponent with an arbitrary amount of damage, spattering him to gibbets in one glorious attack.
b) You hit the opponent with an arbitrary number of attacks that whittle his health down to nothing, spattering him to gibbets in a whirlwind of slightly-less-glorious attacks.

And assigning more health levels just makes these four-hour slugfests take longer.

[Xefas]

Also keep in mind that, even if you heap on a bunch of unofficial patches to fix the combat system, you still have pretty terrible social, mass combat, and nation building systems where any things resembling interesting roleplaying mechanics are few and far between.

At best, you've fixed the Exalted system into being a kind of janky pseudo-tactical fantasy combat simulator that still takes hours of real time to resolve anything.

Which, is sorta okay if you have really low standards for tactical combat games. And still does nothing for you if you were hoping to interact with the Exalted world on any level not having to do with direct physical violence.

[Tael]

Bleargh, misread your post (somehow) as just dealing 3 damage.

Still, high-end Exalted combat still works out in a very small number of ways.

1) You hit the opponent with some status effect that he hasn't bought a defense against (for one reason or another) that utterly ruins him with little to no chance of resisting.
2) You perfect until one of you runs out of motes, and then:
a) You hit the opponent with an arbitrary amount of damage, spattering him to gibbets in one glorious attack.
b) You hit the opponent with an arbitrary number of attacks that whittle his health down to nothing, spattering him to gibbets in a whirlwind of slightly-less-glorious attacks.

And assigning more health levels just makes these four-hour slugfests take longer.

Nasty. Any advice on potential ways to alleviate these problems, even a little bit?

And how high is high level in your experience?

[TheCountAlucard]

Nasty. Any advice on potential ways to alleviate these problems, even a little bit?

No clue.

And how high is high level in your experience?

Depends on the optimization level of the players, and how hard the ST tries to challenge them.

If both are relatively low, you may well clear 100+ XP without seeing any sign of it. If both are high, it'll show up in the first session.

[Tael]

No clue.

Depends on the optimization level of the players, and how hard the ST tries to challenge them.

If both are relatively low, you may well clear 100+ XP without seeing any sign of it. If both are high, it'll show up in the first session.

Heh, so far my players have been very unoptimized, but they're learning fast.
One of my normally unoptimized players keeps stumbling upon crazy awesome stuff (Violet Bier of Sorrows, Nice combination of Archery w/ Magma Revolvers and Sail buffs) while the normally good optimizer has been flunking out (Generalist spread way too thin, Celestial Monkey practitioner learning Sorcery. That right, Celestial Monkey style and Sorcery.) I expect them to start pumping out pretty powerful stuff soon though, so I need to prepare.

[DrakeRaids]

MoEP: Infernals, and the Scroll of Errata, DotFA Section

[Kris Strife]

In a team up between Xanatos (Gargoyles), Lex Luthor, Dr. Doom, HamilJoker and Ebon Dragon, who would be the first to screw over the others?

[TheCountAlucard]

In a team up between Xanatos (Gargoyles), Lex Luthor, Dr. Doom, HamilJoker and Ebon Dragon, who would be the first to screw over the others?

Ebby would do it first, but Xanatos would do it best.

[Kris Strife]

Ebby would do it first, but Xanatos would do it best.

I meant genuinely screw the others over. I'm sure most of them would be counting on the others betrayal to further their own plan.

[Xefas]

In a team up between Xanatos (Gargoyles), Lex Luthor, Dr. Doom, HamilJoker and Ebon Dragon, who would be the first to screw over the others?

Dr. Doom would have sculpted an intricate and masterful betrayal that would unravel itself only after he and his compatriots had finished whatever the objective was that had brought them together in the first place.

The Ebon Dragon would immediately forget their original intentions and stab Dr. Doom in the back of the head just for the hell of it. Which would set off the C4 the Joker had implanted in Dr. Doom's skull the night before while he was sleeping.

The survivors would wipe the remaining brain goo off of themselves and glance around, only to realize that Lex Luther had gotten bored and left eight minutes ago to chase after Superman, regardless of his relevance to their current schemes.

Xanatos would shrug and go back to his smoking hot wife to live a life of contentment and luxury, attaining ultimate victory by default.

[Turalisj]

Don't forget his Demigod son or Fae butler.