General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[Tael]

On a slightly related note to the previous discussion, what does the playground think of implementing a 1 wp surcharge on all perfect defenses?

[Xefas]

Don't forget his Demigod son or Fae butler.

I'm finding it hard to think of an antagonist who ended up "winning" their respective form of media more completely than David Xanatos.

[Tavar]

On a slightly related note to the previous discussion, what does the playground think of implementing a 1 wp surcharge on all perfect defenses?

Baaaaaaddd idea. Like, uber bad. Unless you want everyone to be oneshotable.

[TheCountAlucard]

It would've pretty much changed the outcome of the Primordial War, that's for certain. Seeing how the Primordials have twice the Willpower that an Exalt can achieve, and how they have no need for Combos, they're going to be paying less Willpower to survive, and seeing how they have a thousand motes, they can invest a stupid amount of fatality-inducing craziness on an attack against the opposition the second his defenses wear out.

Solar Bob: "I charge the Primordial!"
ST: "He perfects. On his action, he flurries you for ten attacks."
Solar Bob:

[Tael]

Baaaaaaddd idea. Like, uber bad. Unless you want everyone to be oneshotable.

I still remain unconvinced that Exalted combat is Perfect or Die, especially when using 2 relatively simple houserules (armorium, free Ox Body = Stam) See past 2 pages. Very lethal, yes, but there are plenty of non-perfect defensive charms.

IMO one should only want to use perfects when the opponent whips out their tactical nuke combo, or someone chucks a lighting balista at you.

It would've pretty much changed the outcome of the Primordial War, that's for certain. Seeing how the Primordials have twice the Willpower that an Exalt can achieve, and how they have no need for Combos, they're going to be paying less Willpower to survive, and seeing how they have a thousand motes, they can invest a stupid amount of fatality-inducing craziness on an attack against the opposition the second his defenses wear out.

Solar Bob: "I charge the Primordial!"
ST: "He perfects. On his action, he flurries you for ten attacks."
Solar Bob:

Well, Assume that essence 5 or 6 has a permanent upgrade charm which removes the wp cost then.

[Kylarra]

Exalted combat doesn't /have/ to be perfect or die, just it is remarkably easy to get to that point with minimal optimization.

[TheCountAlucard]

Well, assume that essence 5 or 6 has a permanent upgrade charm which removes the wp cost then.

Why? The Exalted had to be of sufficient strength to be able to stand against the Primordials right out of the box; if it had taken months or years or mortal lifetimes to be able to actually survive battle with a Primordial, then the first generation would've been wiped out, and then the entirety of humanity put to the sword to prevent them from re-emerging.

Even assuming the gods kept their champions a secret for 100 years to get them all to elder Essence before releasing them to make war on the Primordials, any casualties suffered are effectively irreplaceable, due to the amount of time it takes to train one before it can stand against a Primordial again (and casualties did occur).

Also, that just makes the game a race to Essence 5-6. Moreso than it is already, I mean.

[Tael]

Why? The Exalted had to be of sufficient strength to be able to stand against the Primordials right out of the box; if it had taken months or years or mortal lifetimes to be able to stand against one, then the first generation of them would've been slain before they could reach that point, and then the entirety of humanity put to the sword to prevent them from re-emerging.

Ah, my bad, I was under the impression that Essence 5+ solars were fighting the primordials. Thought the UCS had made the first ones start out awesome or something.

[Xefas]

Why? The Exalted had to be of sufficient strength to be able to stand against the Primordials right out of the box; if it had taken months or years or mortal lifetimes to be able to actually survive battle with a Primordial, then the first generation would've been wiped out, and then the entirety of humanity put to the sword to prevent them from re-emerging.

Actually, there was a pretty big span of time between the Exalted being created and the beginning of the Primordial War. The Maidens actually told the Primordials about the Sidereals, and they didn't have a problem with it.

It's perfectly reasonable to assume the Exalted trained up for a nice long while beforehand.

[TheCountAlucard]

It's perfectly reasonable to assume the Exalted trained up for a nice long while beforehand.

I disagree. Sitting in one place and training for eighty years is not behavior conducive to Exaltation. And again, if the Exalted host had to be Elders before they could've stood against the Primordials, any casualties suffered are effectively irreplaceable.

[Sanguine]

Actually, there was a pretty big span of time between the Exalted being created and the beginning of the Primordial War. The Maidens actually told the Primordials about the Sidereals, and they didn't have a problem with it.

It's perfectly reasonable to assume the Exalted trained up for a nice long while beforehand.

Also the Endowment Charm can get First Gen Exalts a nice big Permanent Essence real quick.

[Xefas]

I disagree.

I also disagree. What now?

[TheCountAlucard]

I also disagree. What now?

Now, if you intend to convince me my opinion is wrong, you offer a counterpoint, because currently, I don't find your argument all that convincing. If not, then I suppose the logical step is to agree to disagree. I'm okay with that if you are, but it almost certainly means we'll never game together.

After all, it's my opinion that any stripe of the Exalted shouldn't have to sit around and train before they can be awesome. It seems from your posts that you think differently. That's certainly a big enough stylistic rift that any attempts at gaming together would be problematic.

[Xefas]

After all, it's my opinion that any stripe of the Exalted shouldn't have to sit around and train before they can be awesome. It seems from your posts that you think differently. That's certainly a big enough stylistic rift that any attempts at gaming together would be problematic.

You're putting semantics in my mouth and then disagreeing with them. In an overly dramatic fashion, as well.

[TheCountAlucard]

You're putting semantics in my mouth and then disagreeing with them. In an overly dramatic fashion, as well.

My apologies, then. I agree that it's not unreasonable that they may well have trained the first generation of Exalts; I was disagreeing with the idea that it should have been necessary (which, admittedly, you didn't argue), and that they were trained long enough to achieve elder Essence (and also admittedly, I'd forgotten about the Endowment Charm, but it still doesn't sit well with me).

Since all you said was, "I disagree," it was extremely unclear on which part of my argument you were actually disagreeing with. So, yeah, I interpreted it that you were disagreeing with all of it.

Again, sorry.

EDIT: On a somewhat-related note, where did it say that, about the Sidereals being known about by the Primordials?

[Xefas]

EDIT: On a somewhat-related note, where did it say that, about the Sidereals being known about by the Primordials?

I don't recall exactly. Something about the Maidens presenting the Sidereals as their servants to help in the operation of the Loom, and the Primordials taking a liking to them, and showering them with gifts and so forth, right up until their inevitable betrayal.

Maybe Ink Monkeys? Dreams of the First Age? Glories:Maidens? Compass:Malfeas? I'm not sure.

[Sanguine]

I don't recall exactly. Something about the Maidens presenting the Sidereals as their servants to help in the operation of the Loom, and the Primordials taking a liking to them, and showering them with gifts and so forth, right up until their inevitable betrayal.

Maybe Ink Monkeys? Dreams of the First Age? Glories:Maidens? Compass:Malfeas? I'm not sure.

It wasn't those two in the middle I know that. I actually don't think it was either of the other two either. I think it might have actually been in Sidereals itself. Anyway, I remember it, aside from the showering with gifts part.

[Indon]

Exalted combat doesn't /have/ to be perfect or die, just it is remarkably easy to get to that point with minimal optimization.

This. Exalted combat in my experience has worked just fine with my players.

I disagree. Sitting in one place and training for eighty years is not behavior conducive to Exaltation. And again, if the Exalted host had to be Elders before they could've stood against the Primordials, any casualties suffered are effectively irreplaceable.

They weren't just sitting around training, they were raising armies, building artifacts, and probably fighting off the Wyld.

I don't think fresh Exalts should be able to beat up the Primordials. I think that seriously detracts from the dramatic capability of the system. Characters need growth.

It wasn't those two in the middle I know that. I actually don't think it was either of the other two either. I think it might have actually been in Sidereals itself. Anyway, I remember it, aside from the showering with gifts part.

It's in the first chapter of the Sidereals book, IIRC, right near the start.

[TheCountAlucard]

Anyway, I remember it, aside from the showering with gifts part.

Having just found it, I can attest that yeah, nothing was said about gifts.

...and probably fighting off the Wyld.

Why would they do that? It's not like they had some urgent need to do so. Back then, the separation between Wyld and Creation was much more distinct. Any sort of obvious activity on their part (like raising armies and fighting in the Wyld) increases the likelihood of the "surprise" being spoiled.

I think that seriously detracts from the dramatic capability of the system.

Why? It's not about the Primordials - it hasn't been about the Primordials for a long, long time. Besides, we're talking a unified army of Exalts here; even having been Chosen for one day, there's very little they shouldn't be able to stand against.

Characters need growth.

And they can have their growth. It was after the Primordial War that they started inventing all the really crazy Charms, after all.

It's in the first chapter of the Sidereals book, IIRC, right near the start.

On the one hand, it says it's Sidereal lore, and like all history kept by one particular stripe of Exalt, it's very tainted in their favor. It's unlikely that anyone could definitively give you answers in that respect.

[meschlum]

Well, I'm sure meschlum can whip out a starting Fair Folk with an arbitrary amount of damage it can deal, but before he does that, I'll posit that a Lunar character specialized in dealing damage can probably get about that high at chargen, as can a Solar Melee guy.

Arbitrary is hard.

Will excessive do?

Essence 3 (10 bp)
Ring 4, Sword 2 (2 spare virtue points to spend)
Str 7, Dex 7, Sta 5 (physical favored)

Martial Arts / Melee 7

Artifact 5 (4 bp)
Retinue 1
Birth 3
Gossamer 3

Charms:
Fantastic Grotesquerie Shell - granting Gargantuan for +4 Str / Sta and bonus health levels.
Glorious Hero Form twice - gives +1 to all Physical Attributes
Translucent Dream Sheathing Technology (requires 3 charms)
3 free charms
Assumption Charm of your choice. If you take Bestial Form and get something that will increase your Strength or Dex (you have 5 mutation points), do so.


The Hungry Maw: a massive shape composed of fangs, claws, and endless appetite, the Maw is not so much controlled as pointed towards those its handler wishes to see consumed. The incidental destruction of landscape and obstacles is viewed as a benefit.

5-dot Behemoth
Assumption of Bestial Form (1) - grants 5 points of mutations
Gargantuan (6) - +4 strength and Sta, bonus health levels
Knife Hand Dream (2) - +5 to damage, Aggravated damage, parry lethal
Armament of Flesh (2) + 4 to damage, +1 Accuracy
Glorious Hero Form (4) - +1 to Str, Dex, and Sta
Surpassing Excellence (1) +2 with natural weapon
Hundred Hand Style (2) +2 rate

The Maw's natural weapon does damage as an attuned 3- or 4- dot artifact weapon, with the bonuses above, net weapon outcome is:

+14 Aggravated damage, +4 Accuracy, +3 Defense, +2 Rate


The Pendant of Claws A minor bit of magic, the Pendant enhances the natural attacks of its wearer, impossible to evade.

1-dot Outward Facing Oneiromancy
Assumption of Bestial Form (1) (a claw)
World Angering Bestial Mastery (3): -5 external penalty to Dex+Dodge against the bearer of the Pendant.
World Angering Bestial Mastery (3): -5 external penalty to Dex+Melee against the bearer of the Pendant.
World Angering Bestial Mastery (3): -5 external penalty to Dex+Martial Arts against the bearer of the Pendant.

Bears a Translucent Dream Sheathing Technology such that the blows struck by its bearer cannot be avoided - effect negated by spending 1 wp. Targets then get a -4 internal penalty to avoiding blows, while the attacker gets +1 wyld die to attacks.

The bloody Gash: a wound that never quite closes, this piece of Fair Folk magic spurs its bearer to ever greater skill with their natural weapons, and ensures that those nearby will not pose a threat to it.

1-dot Outward Facing Oneiromancy
Assumption of the Person's Heart (1) (bleeding wound)
King of Beasts Method (3): +3 dice to Dex+Natural Weapons actions
Heart Stealing Kiss (3): damages the willpower of the first person hit in a scene, stores motes (which are not used).
Bestial Transformation (3): turns foes struck in combat into blind slugs, with the Blindness mutation combined with Dex and Sta Atrophy (lose 1 dot of each).

Bears a Translucent Dream Sheathing Technology making the bearer impossible to hit. Opponents can negate this with 1 wp, then need to use stunts of charms anyway, operating at -4 internal penalty to hit while the bearer gets +1 wyld die to defend.


So attacks by the Maw do +26 Aggravated damage on top of the base weapon, rolling 23 dice to attack (+ weapon accuracy). Opponents have an effective -5 to their DV and a -4 internal penalty, meaning that the attacker will score a lot of successes. Rate is enhanced enough to permit flurries, and once you connect your foe is blind, may have less DV and soak (due to lost Dex and Sta), and re-establishing surprise on a blind foe shouldn't be too hard. Plus, for combat to be joined, each foe must spend 2 wp, and their odds of hitting you are... low.

If you feel vicious, replace the Atrophies with Deafness, to ensure surprise.

You have committed 18 (out of 30) motes to this setup, and even if your behemoth gets killed, you're not there to take the hit. You have 1 lorekeeper who is committing the motes for the Gash. If you want to commit to it instead, you can inflict another 2 mutation points on your foes.

You still have 8 dots of artifacts. Such as Oneiromancies to further boost your behemoth, or whatever you like.


To get terminal velocity, just do the wolfman-and-bone trick. Except this time you're not tied to the bone, and the bone is your enemy. They get tossed 1 mile, straight up - taking no damage on the way there.

The trip back, on the other hand...

[TheCountAlucard]

Arbitrary is hard.

Will excessive do?

I knew I could count on you.

[Lix Lorn]

MALFEAS IS ALWAYS RIGHT ... ALLCAPS

Its a social-charm upgrade to Green Sun Nimbus Flare which perfectly parries arguments by rendering them invalid via lighting the other person on fire with nuclear radiation.

MALFEAS DEMANDS COOKIES.

In a team up between Xanatos (Gargoyles), Lex Luthor, Dr. Doom, HamilJoker and Ebon Dragon, who would be the first to screw over the others?

I love this thread.

Arbitrary is hard.

Will excessive do?

...especially you.

[Drascin]

Why? It's not about the Primordials - it hasn't been about the Primordials for a long, long time. Besides, we're talking a unified army of Exalts here; even having been Chosen for one day, there's very little they shouldn't be able to stand against.

Mechanics do not exactly pan this out, though. Seriously, an Exalt without some experience under his belt (for some paranoia and keyword defenses) is seriously fragile and vulnerable. Chargen exalts aren't invulnerable - hell, they aren't even particularly impressive, and can die easily to mortals with bows. And there must have been like ten times the number of demons than there were Exalts at the absolute least (I seem to remember a figure of ten thousand Dragonblooded. There are tens of thousands of First Circles just descended from Malfeas!), most of them with a bit of actual experience and such.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the gods must have put the Exalts through some severe accelerated training and Endowment-spam to get them into shape as fast as possible. Besides, had to have something to spend the time on while the Mountain Folk built those caches of weapons and uber-artifacts.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Primordials didn't have demons until after the Primordial War.

Before that they were devas. And they didn't have that many first-circle devas, because... seriously, they had all these other servant beings.

Plus, there's not much difference between first-circle devas and lesser gods.

[Delusion]

Mechanics do not exactly pan this out, though. Seriously, an Exalt without some experience under his belt (for some paranoia and keyword defenses) is seriously fragile and vulnerable. Chargen exalts aren't invulnerable - hell, they aren't even particularly impressive, and can die easily to mortals with bows. And there must have been like ten times the number of demons than there were Exalts at the absolute least (I seem to remember a figure of ten thousand Dragonblooded. There are tens of thousands of First Circles just descended from Malfeas!), most of them with a bit of actual experience and such.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the gods must have put the Exalts through some severe accelerated training and Endowment-spam to get them into shape as fast as possible. Besides, had to have something to spend the time on while the Mountain Folk built those caches of weapons and uber-artifacts.

Wasn't there a million or so dragonblooded at that time? Or was that just during the first age?

[Mr.Bookworm]

The Primordial War was fought, at least in the beginning, by mostly Essence 2 Exalted. The 3SC and time-distortion weaponry make it impossible to tell exactly how long it lasted, but we know it lasted centuries. Plenty of time for Exalted to grow. People also forget that almost the entire Exalted host died multiple times during the War. It was a war where a circle of Solars assault a fetich and die trying, where Dragon-Blood die by the score, where the gods needed instruments to pull Exaltations out of the shattered, twisted carcasses of their champions. And they weren't fighting the Primordials at their full might (see: the Chungian Primordial).

One of the things that irks me the most about the Exalted fandom is the tendency to portray things as easy. That removes all tension from the game. Epic deeds are epic because they are difficult.

Do some basic math about the Primordial War. There were at least 36 Primordials fighting. If they all have 10 souls (they have more), there are 360 3rd circle devas the Exalted had to fight, each with seven subsidary souls, for 2520 2nd circle souls.

This was not an easy war.

[Qaera]

Didn't Exaltations just fly out and find a new host? I was under the impression that if you dissect a living Exalt, you couldn't find a physical Exaltation in them.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Didn't Exaltations just fly out and find a new host? I was under the impression that if you dissect a living Exalt, you couldn't find a physical Exaltation in them.

Usually, yes. In the War, though, the Primordials started hitting the Exalted with weaponry that would crush their souls. This didn't destroy the Exaltations (nothing can do that), but it could trap them in their current host.

It's implied that it was rare and horrifying, but Autochthon made a tool to deal with it, so it happened.

[Qaera]

That's pretty awesome.

[Tael]

Should I make a new thread to discuss potential nerfs to existing charms, or just post my ideas/opinions here?