General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[Mr.Bookworm]

Should I make a new thread to discuss potential nerfs to existing charms, or just post my ideas/opinions here?

Post them here, I'd say. As I mentioned before, though, you can't just say "grand killsticks are nerfed and perfects cost a wp" and think you fixed the system. It's complex, and if you make changes, you have to consider how they impact every other mechanical variable and the fluff the system supports.

[Tael]

Post them here, I'd say. As I mentioned before, though, you can't just say "grand killsticks are nerfed and perfects cost a wp" and think you fixed the system. It's complex, and if you make changes, you have to consider how they impact every other mechanical variable and the fluff the system supports.

Uh, I know I'm far from fixing the system, but if I make it at all better, that's a victory in my book. And I'm still waiting to hear back on how my previous house-rules would negatively impact the system.

EDIT: Excluding 1 wp Perfects that is.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Uh, I know I'm far from fixing the system, but if I make it all better, that's a victory in my book. And I'm still waiting to hear back on how my previous house-rules would negatively impact the system.

But my point is, you can't just "make it better". It needs a sweeping revolution, not a few simple fixes.

On a slightly related note to the previous discussion, what does the playground think of implementing a 1 wp surcharge on all perfect defenses?

Everyone now pays 2 wp for their paranoia combos. Combat goes faster, and not in a good way. Also completely screws over the setting in a variety of ways, since the setting is predicated on cheap perfects.

I still remain unconvinced that Exalted combat is Perfect or Die, especially when using 2 relatively simple houserules (armorium, free Ox Body = Stam) See past 2 pages. Very lethal, yes, but there are plenty of non-perfect defensive charms.

Have you wondered why, if fixing Exalted combat is so simple and can be done with two houserules, why no one has thought of this before? It's because it doesn't work. Free Ox-Bodies help, but once you get to a certain level, they don't matter.

IMO one should only want to use perfects when the opponent whips out their tactical nuke combo, or someone chucks a lighting balista at you.

Unfortunately, not how the system works. Maybe it's how it should work, but it's not.

Well, Assume that essence 5 or 6 has a permanent upgrade charm which removes the wp cost then.

This completely and totally breaks the setting in half. For Solars, combat tops out at Essence 5, with everything necessary at Essence 2 or 3. Beyond Essence 5 just increases the scope of what you can do.

[Tavar]

I still remain unconvinced that Exalted combat is Perfect or Die, especially when using 2 relatively simple houserules (armorium, free Ox Body = Stam) See past 2 pages. Very lethal, yes, but there are plenty of non-perfect defensive charms.

You've mentioned the Armorium weapons, but what exactly are they?
Also, you severely overestimate ox body=stamina. Let's say there's a Stamina 5 Solar. Yeah, that's a maximum of 15 health levels, which is nice. But the issue with health levels currently is only partially their scarcity. The fact that you also get wound penalties is a major problem, because it impacts your DVs.

Another problem is that without perfects, bad touch effects just became even more insane. Not to mention that Perfect attacks became much, much more threatening.

IMO one should only want to use perfects when the opponent whips out their tactical nuke combo, or someone chucks a lighting balista at you.

[Sanguine]

Usually, yes. In the War, though, the Primordials started hitting the Exalted with weaponry that would crush their souls. This didn't destroy the Exaltations (nothing can do that), but it could trap them in their current host.

It's implied that it was rare and horrifying, but Autochthon made a tool to deal with it, so it happened.

Where is this said? 'Cause I don't remember it at all.

[Lochar]

With perfects costing willpower, all it requires is a two charm combo, possibly three charms if you want to include your join battle enhancer to get the first attack.

Magical Flurry + appropriate weapon excellency.

Hi, here's 3-6 attacks, all at 18+ dice. Your DV is going to drop with each attack because of onslaught. If you have a perfect, now you have to pay 3-6 willpower to stop all those attacks.


Putting a willpower cost on perfects fixes nothing, and turns the game into 'who can get the highest join battle' instead of perfect defense trading.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Where is this said? 'Cause I don't remember it at all.

Check CoCD: Yu-Shan. It's talked about in the sidebar to Lytek's entry, which details his tools.

[Tael]

But my point is, you can't just "make it better". It needs a sweeping revolution, not a few simple fixes.

If you think that the game is completely unfix-able that's unfortunate, but I happen to really like exalted, and I'm going to put a lot of effort into making it a better gaming experience.

Everyone now pays 2 wp for their paranoia combos. Combat goes faster, and not in a good way. Also completely screws over the setting in a variety of ways, since the setting is predicated on cheap perfects.

Okay, okay, I get it, wp on a perfect defense is a bad idea. What about the other changes I proposed?

Have you wondered why, if fixing Exalted combat is so simple and can be done with two houserules, why no one has thought of this before? It's because it doesn't work. Free Ox-Bodies help, but once you get to a certain level, they don't matter.

I'm sorry if the idea of me trying to patch the game up a bit offends you in some way (or if I'm interpreting your tone wrong).

And again, I DON'T think I'm fixing the system with these two houserules. I'm just trying to make it bit less lethal.

Unfortunately, not how the system works. Maybe it's how it should work, but it's not.

That's how I'm trying to make it work. If you think it's impossible, again, I think that's unfortunate, but if you have any ideas or suggestions I'd really like to hear them.

You've mentioned the Armorium weapons, but what exactly are they?
Also, you severely overestimate ox body=stamina. Let's say there's a Stamina 5 Solar. Yeah, that's a maximum of 15 health levels, which is nice. But the issue with health levels currently is only partially their scarcity. The fact that you also get wound penalties is a major problem, because it impacts your DVs.

Another problem is that without perfects, bad touch effects just became even more insane. Not to mention that Perfect attacks became much, much more threatening.

The Armorium is a fan made redux of all the (core at least) artifact weapons in exalted, plus a few new ones. The intent is make them less lethal, and to make them more balanced in general. As to wound penalties, they're normally only going to DV by 1 at most, unless you're literally on death's door. Which is bad, yes, but it's probably not going to kill you if you weren't already going to lose.

[Neon Knight]

You've mentioned the Armorium weapons, but what exactly are they?

Some dude's homebrew project.

http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/i...e=The_Armorium

Haven't taken a look at it, but from the sounds of it, I'm not impressed. Acc -1 and Def -3? Woo, I'm quaking in my boots! That one dice and DV value that I don't care about because I'm expecting to perfect often anyway is really gonna make me rethink things!

Also, when I looked up the Grand Goremaul in the PDF that I found at that link, the Grand Goremaul was -1 Def and 0 Acc. The Grand Goreflail, a new weapon, fits the quoted -1 Acc -3 Def.

Also, the firearms found within, both Magma and Infenro, compare unfavorably (at a glance) to the two dot Plasma Tongue Repeater found in Wonders of the Lost Age.

[Lochar]

And again, I DON'T think I'm fixing the system with these two houserules. I'm just trying to make it bit less lethal.

Ox-Bodies = stamina means you can absorb one or two hits, if you have armor and don't mind accepting the wound penalties.

But don't try to take a grand killstick on the chin, it doesn't work.


The base problem with combat is it's lethality, yes. However, it's built around the idea that the Exalted had to have perfect kill abilities to kill of the Primordials.

Now that they're dead/locked up, those same charms that barely proved capable of what the gods originally intended for the Exalted to do, are now overly powerful. The Maidens actually had the right idea in not allowing new Charms to be built, and locking the strongest ones away.

But if you did that to the Solar Exalted, all of a sudden they're gimped god-kings that can't do what Sol intended for them to do after the Primordial War. IE: Run Creation.

[Yuki Akuma]

As to wound penalties, they're normally only going to DV by 1 at most, unless you're literally on death's door. Which is bad, yes, but it's probably not going to kill you if you weren't already going to lose.

You are aware that it's very possible to get a metric ton of -4 health levels, yes? Not everyone gets -0 and -1 health levels with their Ox-Bodies.

[Qaera]

And charms that negate wound penalties aren't that hard to get, iirc.

[Kyeudo]

It shouldn't be taken as a hard-and-fast percentage, because "how much stuff can't I remember?" is a terrible measuring stick, but the number is not a fan invention.

Actually, it is a fan invention, from 1st Edition. The fanon got canonized by whoever did that sidebar.

It's implied that it was rare and horrifying, but Autochthon made a tool to deal with it, so it happened.

I don't see why Autochthon made a tool for that. He already had one. It's called a sword. The pointy end goes in the Exalt and out comes an Exaltation. The Exalt dies in the process, of course, but his new tool does the exact same thing.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't see why Autochthon made a tool for that. He already had one. It's called a sword. The pointy end goes in the Exalt and out comes an Exaltation. The Exalt dies in the process, of course, but his new tool does the exact same thing.

Er... no. This tool is for extracting an Exaltation from the tangled remnants of the host's body and soul. For use when it can't get out on its own.

[Kyeudo]

Er... no. This tool is for extracting an Exaltation from the tangled remnants of the host's body and soul. For use when it can't get out on its own.

Except the only time an Exaltation can't get out on its own is when the host still breathes.

[Volthawk]

Except the only time an Exaltation can't get out on its own is when the host still breathes.

As Mr.Bookworm said earlier, the Primordials had ways of getting around that.

Usually, yes. In the War, though, the Primordials started hitting the Exalted with weaponry that would crush their souls. This didn't destroy the Exaltations (nothing can do that), but it could trap them in their current host.

It's implied that it was rare and horrifying, but Autochthon made a tool to deal with it, so it happened.

[Mr.Bookworm]

If you think that the game is completely unfix-able that's unfortunate, but I happen to really like exalted, and I'm going to put a lot of effort into making it a better gaming experience.

I'm not saying it's unfixable. It would take two things:

1) A through, comprehensive understanding of the system. No offense, but given that we had to tell you about paranoia combat, I'm guessing you don't have this (I don't either).

2) Lots of spare time. You need to reevaluate the entire combat system and everything that interacts with it (i.e., pretty much everything). This is a metric assload of work.

Thankfully, we have people who have the first, and have sacrificed sleep for the second. Look for Exalted 2.5 soon.

I'm sorry if the idea of me trying to patch the game up a bit offends you in some way (or if I'm interpreting your tone wrong).

I apologize if my tone is harsh, but this is one of those things that keeps getting brought up and up and up again. The lethality problem is well recognized and documented.

And again, I DON'T think I'm fixing the system with these two houserules. I'm just trying to make it bit less lethal.

They, as mentioned, don't do much. Free Ox-Bodies do help (try to find a game without them), but I'm going to chorus Neon Knight in being fairly unimpressed with the Armorium. It's not bad or anything, it just doesn't really do anything to help the problem.

That's how I'm trying to make it work. If you think it's impossible, again, I think that's unfortunate, but if you have any ideas or suggestions I'd really like to hear them.

I know enough about the system to know that I have nowhere near enough knowledge to fix it.

[Kylarra]

To be fair, while overall nerfing of weapons doesn't fix the system, it does set the bar to reach perfect or die [slightly] higher, which may be sufficient for a sufficiently low optimized game for a time.

[Tavar]

Hey, guess what just came out! Sidereal Errata? no
Lunar Errata? I wish

The Test of Spite is open! Let's show the world just how dysfunctional exalted really is.

[Kylarra]

Hey, guess what just came out! Sidereal Errata? no
Lunar Errata? I wish

The Test of Spite is open! Let's show the world just how dysfunctional exalted really is.

I'll pray for your soul.

[Tavar]

Cool! That means 1 more wp per day.

[Sanguine]

Cool! That means 1 more wp per day.

No, you need five people for that.

[Tavar]

Never said Kylarra was the only one....

[Mr.Bookworm]

Hey guys, guess who asked for me to do another martial arts style?

Absolutely no one!

[Urpriest]

So we all agree that there need to be Gurren Lagann themed Infernal charms. Quite possibly there are already. Probably Qaf charms, since, y'know, the heavens and the piercing and so forth.

And I thought a cool idea would be a charm like "Who the Hell Do You Think We Are?" (Prereq: "Who the Hell Do You Think I Am?") that allows you to designate your nakama as permanently part of a mass combat unit, so that anyone attacking them is effectively attacking you because of the whole "army as pants" thing, and has to do it on long ticks so battles are way more dramatic. This all sounded cool, until I remembered that everyone hates the mass combat rules and wants them to go die in a fire. Which leads me to ask, why? Could people please remind me what, broadly, is wrong with the mass combat rules?


Also, is there a default speed for a Simple charm? In particular, the Lunar Charm Perfect Symmetry has no listed speed. When used in social combat, how many long ticks do I need to wait before using another charm?

[Turalisj]

Hey Book, can you make a Lightning based CMA? The only thing I have is the basic concept- It's an Autocthonian style that is dual nature. Called the Striking Thunder Flashing Lightning style, it emphasizes slow strong blows (thunder) and fast light strikes (lightning).

I have 5 other style ideas (Smoke, Steam, Oil, Metal, and Crystal) that reflect the dual nature of the Alchemicals (both heroes and servants, metal and organic)

[Xefas]

metal and organic

Wait, are they organic? I thought that was clay.

[Sanguine]

Simple Charms are Speed 6 unless otherwise noted. Exalted pg 182. They also default to a -1 DV Penalty.

Edit: As for Mass Combat, yeah I don't know what the problem with that is. And Alchemicals are most definitely not organic.

[Turalisj]

Wait, are they organic? I thought that was clay.

They are organic in the loosest sense of the word.

[TheCountAlucard]

Which leads me to ask, why? Could people please remind me what, broadly, is wrong with the mass combat rules?

Sure - first and foremost, they don't actually work, at least not out of the corebook.

Point number one is that a good mass combat system would flow from a good normal combat system, and we've already several times in this thread likened normal combat to an elephant balancing on stilts.

Point number two is that the mass combat system is supposed to be an abstraction, and that a good mass combat system would produce similar results were the entirety of it played out in normal combat, and this is not the case.

Let's break up point number two a little more. Let's say a Solar has five Dex, five Dodge, a relevant Specialty, a pair of hearthstone bracers, and all the Core Dodge Charms. None of this is unreasonable. You can throw an army of mortals at him in normal combat, and they will never touch him - he doesn't even need to use Seven Shadow Evasion.

Now, put that same Solar into Mass Combat - suddenly whoever's commanding them is the base stats for the army, and he gets the bonuses (represented not just in Might and Magnitude, but also Close Combat rating, Drill, et cetera) of everyone else tacked onto him. Suddenly the Solar actually needs to utilize his perfect defense.

Now, let's say the Solar uses Death of Obsidian Butterflies. In normal combat, you could pretty much guarantee that there are no survivors amongst this mass of humanity. In mass combat, it's instead this commander's health bar, and this health loss simply drops his Magnitude, instead of being the horrifying rout that it should've been.

So again, if it's supposed to be an abstraction, things shouldn't turn out so differently simply because you're rolling Join War instead of Join Battle; if it's supposed to be different, then it shouldn't say it's an abstraction.