General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[Turalisj]

Eh. 2500 XP is a bit less then what Deathlords actually get, and is a little less then what a 1000 year old Exalted gets. I'd go with the Charms simply for ease of use.

That said, restricting it to Essence 5- Charms, and then having unique panoply Charms for high Essence effects might be a good idea. I'm open to suggestions, if anyone has them.

Again asking about the chance to play a Void Lord

[Friv]

If the First and Forsaken Lion wanted to, he could Black Faith his way into the Jade Pleasure Dome, and lay some serious whup on the Unconquered Sun, at no personal risk to himself. Either he doesn't really care about ending Creation, or he's even more of a colossal, short-sighted moron than we can imagine.

I do not think that would work out well for him. If he teleports into the Pleasure Dome, he's going toe-to-toe with the UCS while all of the UCS's Virtues are primed, meaning he needs to perfect defend constantly or be instantly vaporized and the UCS has infinite perfect defenses. Meanwhile, the room also contains Luna, the five Maidens, and one of Gaia's jouten, none of whom will be happy to see the Lion.

And then the Incarna start paying attention to the Deathlords.

I mean, I agree that with their stats as presented, one of the Deathlords should have taken a stroll around Creation to trigger Arisen and Screaming by now, ending the world, but that's not a great way to go about it.

[TheCountAlucard]

I do not think that would work out well for him.

Why not? It literally won't do him any harm - remember, he's got scripted immortality. You don't have [special Deathlord weakness], which may or may not even exist? Too bad, Ignis Divine, looks like you've just inconvenienced him. A little.

If he teleports into the Pleasure Dome, he's going toe-to-toe with the UCS while all of the UCS's Virtues are primed...

Except Temperance, because he's playing the Games...

meaning he needs to perfect defend constantly or be instantly vaporized and the UCS has infinite perfect defenses.

Except that in order to be playing the Games, he's denying his Temperance...

Meanwhile, the room also contains Luna, the five Maidens, and one of Gaia's jouten, none of whom will be happy to see the Lion.

Luna has her times when she's not there (namely when it's not her turn). As for Gaia, she's also not always there (coincidentally often at the same time as Luna...). The Maidens will do nothing, because either a) the Unconquered Sun is destined to win, and thus they have no reason to help him, or b) the Unconquered Sun is destined to lose, and thus they cannot interfere.

And then the Incarna start paying attention to the Deathlords.

Assuming they can tear their attention away from the Games of Divinity, which they can't.

I mean, I agree that with their stats as presented, one of the Deathlords should have taken a stroll around Creation to trigger Arisen and Screaming by now, ending the world, but that's not a great way to go about it.

Admittedly, I was just presenting the absurd option. There's a million ways they could've done the deed.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The First and Forsaken Lion can semi-canonically go toe-to-toe with the Unconquered Sun. In RotSE, the Neverborn have a backdoor into the Jade Pleasure Dome, and they sneak a strike team of Faffles, Infernals, and Abyssals through it to kill Sol.

I think that Faffles, as the strongest of the Deathlords, should be about on par with the Incarnae, since his whole schtick is supposed to be that he's incredibly powerful, but the Neverborn have restrained him and he has zero interest in Creation.

[The_Snark]

One more reason I find their statting out of the Deathlords to be so silly - do you think Mask of Winters' Motivation is really accurate? Think a being as powerful as he is would really fail to bring about the end of existence if it was his Motivation? Either his power level is wrong, or his writeup is wrong.

Ah, well. I sympathize with the writers here; printed stat blocks for villains who are supposed to be a bit of an enigma are a bit of a problem that way.

See above.

If the First and Forsaken Lion wanted to, he could Black Faith his way into the Jade Pleasure Dome, and lay some serious whup on the Unconquered Sun, at no personal risk to himself. Either he doesn't really care about ending Creation, or he's even more of a colossal, short-sighted moron than we can imagine. Again, either the Deathlords need to be less-powerful, or their goals aren't really centered on bringing about the end of all things. Or both, that would be acceptable.

I think the issue the writers run into here is that they want several things from the Deathlords that don't work well together. They want each individual Deathlord to be able to pose a serious threat to even a circle of powerful Exalts, and crush anything lesser that dares confront them. Fair enough. Any game needs antagonists, and heroes who never face off against anything greater than they are aren't all that heroic.

They want each Deathlord to be loyal to the cause, at least outwardly. They mention a few times that some of them may not be, but they don't want to name names because they want to leave it up to the individual Storyteller to decide which, if any, are disloyal. Also fair enough. I approve of leaving some uncertainties about the setting (my pain peeve with Return of the Scarlet Empress is that it gives a canonical answer to the question "what happened to the Scarlet Empress).

Lastly, they want the Deathlords to have been around for centuries.

Any two of these three could work. If the Deathlords are ancient and awesomely powerful but are dragging their heels on purpose, it makes sense. If the Deathlords are ancient and dedicated but lack the raw power to move openly or quickly, it makes sense. If the Deathlords were awesomely powerful and dedicated to the cause but had only arisen recently, that would also make sense, though it would require overturning either the setting's history or the basic premise of the Deathlords.

Personally, I'm in favor of keeping them powerful, but constraining that power sharply outside the Underworld; that explains why they don't just attack Creation outright, but prevents people from dismissing them as a threat. (Plus possible traitors among the ranks.)

Well, either that or option E: the Deathlords and the Silver Pact have been waging a bloody secret war for centuries, explaining why neither of them has had a more visible impact on the setting and killing two problematic birds with one stone.

Sad but true; why even have her be a Deathlord if she's not going to have an impact on the setting?

Um... interesting point, actually. I like her as a plot element, but now that I think about it I don't think anything would change much if she were a powerful spectre or something.

I never meant to imply it was easy, but given that this is Exalted, it's likely far from impossible, especially if the Exalted actually had had the good sense in the First Age to help them let go, instead of going down to their tombs and teabagging them.

Many things in the setting would be different if more Exalted had more sense. (And maybe an omniscient perspective of the setting like we do. Oh well.)

I think you've hit on a significant point, though: they're not going to get better on their own. They're trapped in a nightmarish combination of sensory deprivation and endless pain and fevered dreaming, which is not conducive to any sort of recovery.

(This does make me wonder, though: if Adorjan were to be killed, would she simply pass straight to Oblivion?)

[Sanguine]

Eh. 2500 XP is a bit less then what Deathlords actually get, and is a little less then what a 1000 year old Exalted gets. I'd go with the Charms simply for ease of use.

That said, restricting it to Essence 5- Charms, and then having unique panoply Charms for high Essence effects might be a good idea. I'm open to suggestions, if anyone has them.

I would so be interested in this Deathlord Game.

Assuming they can tear their attention away from the Games of Divinity, which they can't.

Then how is Luna not always there?

[TheCountAlucard]

Then how is Luna not always there?

That's a very good question. Glories: Luna points out that she's just as addicted as the rest of the Incarnae, but it also makes mention of the fact that she will show up on her Silver Chair from time to time.

Point being, the presence or absence of the Deathlords will likely do nothing more to tear the Incarnae away from the Games than anything else in the setting, so what would it matter if they started paying attention to them?

[SurlySeraph]

Sad but true; why even have her be a Deathlord if she's not going to have an impact on the setting?

Because the her/ FaFL plot wouldn't really work if she wasn't a Deathlord? Because having a Deathlord who's all pathetic and cute is hilarious?

[Turalisj]

Then how is Luna not always there?

Because Luna is too wild and uncontrollable to be pinned down by the Games. She's like a god with a bad case of ADHD. And nymphomania

[Yuki Akuma]

Only the Unconquered Sun spends all his time in the Jade Pleasure Dome. The other six Incarnae only spend the majority of their time there.

[Lix Lorn]

Their cousin might decide to "heroically" sleep with every woman in town who he isn't related to. Make sense?

Next heroic mortal game I see>>>>Motivation: Sleep with everyone.
EVERYONE.

Also, on the Deathlord game: DO WANT. Even better, I could play FaFL's ex-Lunar mate!

And the Black Heron, doing things? Funny you should say that... (works on the DB Project)

[MickJay]

Concerning the "heroic farmer" discussion - it might well be a heroic motivation, if you've already got power, but would rather relinquish it for altruistic reasons (e.g a victorious rebel leader gives up power to those he think will do better at governing than he would). Real life example could be Roman dictator, L. Cincinnatus. Staying and farming the land in particularly harsh circumstances, where an easier option is available, could also make it a heroic motivation.

[jindra34]

Concerning the "heroic farmer" discussion - it might well be a heroic motivation, if you've already got power, but would rather relinquish it for altruistic reasons (e.g a victorious rebel leader gives up power to those he think will do better at governing than he would).

Or just push it to be the absolute best farmer. Imagine a threshold farmer who wanted to be know for having better grain than anyone on the Blessed Isle. Or other similar extreme competency motivations.

[Sallera]

That's an... interesting interpretation, but I don't think I've ever seen anything that suggests they could magically come back to life just by wishing it.

I know I've seen it somewhere, and now it's gonna bug me if I don't spend half my day hunting it down.

Perhaps the section in... Abyssals, I think? ...where it mentions the Neverborn returning to life in the Wyld as a possible result of a successful Balorian Crusade?

[Kylarra]

Next heroic mortal game I see>>>>Motivation: Sleep with everyone.
EVERYONE.

So you're like a less discriminating Ma-Ha-Suchi.

GG

[TheCountAlucard]

Perhaps the section in... Abyssals, I think? ...where it mentions the Neverborn returning to life in the Wyld as a possible result of a successful Balorian Crusade?

That might be it, but I could've sworn there was more to it than that.

[Psyborg]

So you're like a less discriminating Ma-Ha-Suchi.

GG

To non-Lunars, "everyone" is typically assumed to mean, "of the same race". And even if it really does mean, "everyone", you could still prioritize within that extremely large list. A reasonably self-interested system might look like...
1) Anyone who catches my eye as particularly attractive [varies by personal personal preference];
2) Anyone who I can spite my enemy by sleeping with [self-explanatory];
3) Anyone who's healthy and interfertile [opposite-gender same-species; fey; gods/spirits/demons/some ghosts; almost anything, if you go far enough out into the Wyld];
4) Anyone who's willing and unattached [may as well put off prosecution as long as possible];
5) Anyone who's willing and attached [adultery is generally less harshly punished than rape, though this varies heavily by culture];
6) Anyone who I can get drunk/drugged/tricked [getting onto thinner ice legally, but not utterly reckless yet]
7) Anyone else of the same species.
~~7a) <insert broad age/gender preference here>
~~7b-7n) <insert age/gender categories here in decreasing preferability>
8) Other-species mammals [subcategorize by preference]
9) Non-mammalian life.
10) This is where we start figuring out how to transport particularly beautiful mountains, caves, or other landscapes to the Wyld.



Purchasing the Adorjani charm "Running to Forever" twice is heavily recommended for actually accomplishing this scheme. The Sidereal Dodge charm "Neighborhood Relocation Scheme" would make 10) much easier, so maybe the non-Exalted mortal with the best chance of accomplishing this goal would be a Sidereal half-caste akuma? He'd need SG fiat to meet the prerequisites (Essence 4 and a perfect defense, which half-castes are normally prohibited from), but it seems fairly believable.

The "Inexhaustible" and "Short Gestation" mutations, and the "Selective Conception" merit, might also be useful.

On the other hand, making the area around the landscape feature in question Wyld for a time is probably easier than relocating it there. Hmm.

[Kylarra]

You're still a less discriminating MHS, since he only wanted to sleep with all the exalts.

[TheCountAlucard]

Why do we have to bring the Wyld into this? Wasn't there an artifact in Scroll of Swallowed Darkness that allowed for these sorts of shenanigans?

Also, please don't bring mortal akuma into this. We all know what's wrong with them.

[The Rose Dragon]

Why do we have to bring the Wyld into this? Wasn't there an artifact in Scroll of Swallowed Darkness that allowed for these sorts of shenanigans?

There is! Many-Stalked Flower of Delights. Mortals cannot use it, however, since it requires 3 motes per lover. And since inanimate objects don't have motes to spend...

[Psyborg]

Thaumaturgy, summon/call a god/demon/elemental with an Endowment charm, and hope you're a smooth talker.

[Feriority]

Then how is Luna not always there?

I interpreted that as the Games not providing the fix you want when it isn't your turn. The UCS can't just leave and return, because you need to know what's going on at all times to play well; Luna doesn't care, and just steps out once in a while, like that person who got tired midway through a long game of Risk and is now continuing to play, but not really paying attention, and making stupid moves that are throwing the balance of the game off because WHY WOULD YOU EVEN ATTACK THERE? Unlike that player, though, Luna can't just make a suicide attack and get out, because the games are still addictive, so even if you don't play optimally, you can't just not play your turn.

If you couldn't tell, I'm pretty familiar with gamers behaving in that way >.>

[golentan]

The thing is, people talk about the Neverborn's plan (kill creation so they can pass into oblivion) as if it can succeed, when we have canonical evidence that it is almost certainly more impossible than the yozi plan.

Creation got wiped. It spent more than a hundred years just not existing. Now, we don't know if the underworld did the same since it doesn't share a border with the wyld IIRC, and the ebon dragon isn't a reputable source. But the thing is, creation came back. And the neverborn were still sitting there in pain when people went to check.

[The Rose Dragon]

Creation got wiped. It spent more than a hundred years just not existing. Now, we don't know if the underworld did the same since it doesn't share a border with the wyld IIRC, and the ebon dragon isn't a reputable source. But the thing is, creation came back. And the neverborn were still sitting there in pain when people went to check.

If you're referring to the Time of Cascading Years, Creation simply broke at the time, it didn't cease to exist. If you're referring to something else, I have no idea what you are referring to.

[golentan]

If you're referring to the Time of Cascading Years, Creation simply broke at the time, it didn't cease to exist. If you're referring to something else, I have no idea what you are referring to.

Hmm... You seem to be right. I had recalled a comment to the effect that it had actually disappeared from an outside perspective, but I guess I was misremembering. Withdrawn.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The Ebon Dragon, Ma-Ha Suchi, Desus, Arkady and Peleps Deled Dickery Voltron suggested by Mr. Bookworm?

The Ebon Dragon and Ma-Ha Suchi are already spoken for. Desus and Arkady are dead. And Peleps Deled will show up on the Isle to be curbstomped at the appropriate place.

Also, if anyone wants in on this, here are the rules of character creation, and a bit of info on the game, because god knows it would take me forever to build a character this big. I'll post the thread up in a week or so. This will be slanted towards a more sandbox style, and also semi-light-hearted in a blackly comic way, because otherwise this would become a big grimfest really really fast. Also, you won't be rolling except for major encounters, so there might be stretches of semi-freeform.

Spoiler

Show

-Build as Abyssals

-3000 XP

-Access to all Solar and Abyssal Charms at or below Essence 5. Excepting Holy, of course (you can buy it, you just can't use it).

-You may buy Arcanoi and spirit Charms as Out-of-Caste Charms. You get the four Deathlord-only Arcanoi specified in the Abyssal manual for free.

-You may learn all levels of martial arts, up to the Celestial circle of Sorcery, and up to the Void Circle of Necromancy.

-You get five free Panoply Charms, unique to you alone (homebrew them, obviously). These should probably fall somewhere between Third Circle Panoply Charms and Incarnae Panoply Charms, with some wiggle room. You may buy additional Panoply Charms for 50 XP, to a maximum of (Essence) total. All of these are subject to Storyteller approval.

-Backgrounds cost 3xp per new dot. You may be able to take Legendary backgrounds (including Artifact N/A), but you have to ask very nicely.

-You get massive Deathlord mote pools, not the standard Abyssal ones.

-One free spell of the same level for every initiation Charm.

-A free Ox-Body for every dot of Essence.

-All books and Ink Monkey material are allowed.

-Homebrew may be allowed. Check with me.

-Tear the game in half and I will tear you in half.

-Deathlord style regeneration is sped up to the level of PLOT. You'll be out of commission for a while if you die, but you'll get to come back into the game.

-You may not play an existing Deathlord. Make up a new one, with an appropriately cool name, including who you were in the First Age, how you died, why you sucked hard enough to take the deal, and what you've been up to since. We're ignoring the 13 Deathlords figure given, so I'll take 4-6 players depending on interest and may ability to read massive character sheets.

-Except to fight things that cannot be beaten by face-punching. There will be plenty of that to go around without every encounter being solved by chucking a mountain at it.

-If you want to play something else, a Yozi, a Void Lord, a Lunar, whatever, talk with me and we'll discuss it.

Anything I left out?

[Turalisj]

Should I talk with you about the Void Lord over AIM?

[Lochar]

Anything I left out?

A recruiting thread? :P

[Mr.Bookworm]

A recruiting thread? :P

And sure, Turalisj. I'm HerraLukutoukka, no space, and not Finnish if that makes you curious.

[The Rose Dragon]

You left out that Deathlords are dysfunctional ghosts (which is why they haven't done anything to destroy the world, thank you), and that they should appropriately have Fetters and Passions that prevent them from being useful to the Neverborn.