General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[The Rose Dragon]

Autochthon is a rebel. The Principle of Hierarchy is a conformist.

Also, Return of the Scarlet Empress is emphatically not canon. It is far worse when a canon book invalidates your ideas about the setting.

[Sanguine]

Autochthon is a rebel. The Principle of Hierarchy is a conformist.

Also, Return of the Scarlet Empress is emphatically not canon. It is far worse when a canon book invalidates your ideas about the setting.

I believe the Yozi Charms are Canon. But yeah aside from that it's no more Canon than any other published adventure.

[The Rose Dragon]

I believe the Yozi Charms are Canon. But yeah aside from that it's no more Canon than any other published adventure.

From what I can tell, there are two canon things in the book: the write-ups of Scarlet Empress (non-akuma) and the Ebon Dragon, and the Solar Charms in one of the chapters.

[Sanguine]

From what I can tell, there are two canon things in the book: the write-ups of Scarlet Empress (non-akuma) and the Ebon Dragon, and the Solar Charms in one of the chapters.

Quick look through also shows the Astrology Charms. I would assume they are Canon as well even if most player will never get to use them.

[Lix Lorn]

Verumpira, the Ambassador, is a he. He also holds one of the coolest artifacts in the game, the word "submission" given physical form.

...that's pretty awesome.

[Yuki Akuma]

Basically any charms presented in Return of the Scarlet Empress are canonical.

[Cyborg Mage]

...that's pretty awesome.

Wait 'till I'm done with Thousand Torments Style.

[TheCountAlucard]

On that note, I've been thinking about just what ten Charms my stupid-powerful Dawn Caste martial artist would take in the event that the Sun kicks the bucket as per RotSE.

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Chances are that I'd want to pick up Should the Sun Not Rise, so that I can still do Holy stuff. Then I'd want to pick up a Holy Charm of some sort, so I can do Holy stuff in the first place. Enemy-Castigating Solar Judgment seems like a good candidate, as I qualify for it already, and it can be used with almost anything. I'd consider picking up Ink Monkey Charms (particularly Titan-Straightening Method), but I have my doubts as to whether my ST would allow them or not. It'd be nice if I could pick up Spirit-Cutting Attack, but as it is, I've only got one dot in Occult.

My Current Charms

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Martial Arts Charms:
First Martial Arts Excellency
Infinite Martial Arts Mastery
Fists of Iron Technique
Sledgehammer Fist Punch
Dragon Coil Technique
Solar Hero Form
Fist of the Unconquered Sun (homebrewed Solar Mirror of One Hand Fury)
Inevitable Victory Meditation (wishing I could dump this one now, though)
Heaven Thunder Hammer
Knockout Blow
Hammer-on-Iron Technique
Horizon-Hurling Tactic
Ox-Stunning Blow

Resistance Charms:
Durability of Oak Meditation
Heroes Never Die
Iron Skin Concentration
Iron Kettle Body
Armored In Righteousness Stance
Spirit Strengthens the Skin
Adamant Skin Technique
Ox-Body Technique
Body-Mending Meditation
Essence-Gathering Temper
Willpower-Enhancing Spirit

Presence Charms:
Second Presence Excellency
Hypnotic-Tongue Technique
You Can Be More

Athletics Charms:
Second Athletics Excellency
Graceful Crane Stance
Thunderbolt Attack Prana

Integrity Charms:
Second Integrity Excellency
Integrity-Protecting Prana
Righteous Lion Defense
Temptation-Resisting Stance
Elusive Dream Defense
Transcendent Hero's Meditation
Final Ray of Light
Truth Shines Through

Favored Abilities are Resistance, Integrity, Awareness, Dodge, and Athletics.

[Kylarra]

That kind of comes with stunts, though. They are always supposed to be rewards given after consideration. Some actions won't merit any stunt awards. Most will merit a 1-die stunt. 2- and 3-die stunts get progressively rarer.

Yes I realize, but in an already tedious PbP environment using an already tedious combat system, I find it simpler to just remove the stunt bonuses, rather than force them to work around Tavar's schedule to judge each and every post before the next player can make a response.

[Yuki Akuma]

Removing a basic game mechanic makes the entire Test of Spite thing pointless, though. The game is meant to be built around the assumption that people can get extra dice and motes of essence routinely. Willpower takes a bit more effort but should still pop up once or twice in a given scene.

[Kylarra]

Well, in my opinion, optimized exalted [PVP] combat is pointless, so I'm not really taken with that argument.

[Tavar]

Yeah, someone else just pointed out that there are quite a few charms that use stunts. I'll have to think of the best way to implement them in a tournament.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, in my opinion, optimized exalted [PVP] combat is pointless, so I'm not really taken with that argument.

Then why are you offering suggestions for something you consider pointless?

Yeah, someone else just pointed out that there are quite a few charms that use stunts. I'll have to think of the best way to implement them in a tournament.

How about - and this is going to sound crazy - actually using the guidelines presented in the book? Shocking, I know.

So any action more descriptive than "I use Essence Arrow Attack on Stoat of the Mire" is a 1-die stunt, any action that's both descriptive and uses the environment presented in some way is a 2-die stunt, and something that is both descriptive, uses the environment, and is also totally awesome is a 3-die stunt?

You can leave 1-die and 2-die stunts up to the players.

[Cyborg Mage]

It's done. Don't read this after a heavy meal.

[Tavar]

How about - and this is going to sound crazy - actually using the guidelines presented in the book? Shocking, I know.

So any action more descriptive than "I use Essence Arrow Attack on Stoat of the Mire" is a 1-die stunt, any action that's both descriptive and uses the environment presented in some way is a 2-die stunt, and something that is both descriptive, uses the environment, and is also totally awesome is a 3-die stunt?

You can leave 1-die and 2-die stunts up to the players.

The problem is that, since the book is written assuming IRL play, it's trivially easy to get 2-die stunts for the texted based format. So what qualifies needs to be changed.

Plus, generally in PvP you don't want subjective things placed in the hands of the players.

[Yuki Akuma]

Okay, how about making it objective?

Say, if you describe your attack with four sentences, it's one die. Describe it with five while taking into account the arena presented, it's two dice.

Or something. I'm sure you can think of better requirements.

[TheCountAlucard]

On another note, considering running Infernals for a few specific people. Any suggestions for houserules/homebrew/other things? I'm so glad I have BWC now...

[tonberrian]

I'm not sure infinite combos are as common as you think they are. Having a 2-die stunt on every rolled action usually means 4 motes or 1 willpower once when you're attacked, barring stunt modification magic like (Yozi) Mythos Exultant (you should probably ban actions that happen only to get stunts and therefore rewards). At that rate, if you can force a combo and at least 3 motes expended on the other guy every time you attack him, eventually his motes are going to be drained away. There is one infinite combo I am aware of that abuses Selfishness is Power, Who Strikes the Wind?'s tick long version, and Swillin's Mythos Exultant, though.

Other, more pressing issues are going to be the Gem of Adamant Skin plus that one charm in the whip based MA in Scroll of the Monk that prevents bashing damage from rolling over into lethal, all the SMA's except the one in Glories: Maidens, and Lightspeed Body Dynamics.

That said, I wouldn't want to try this any time soon, since we're due a huge errata to the basic system soon, which is claimed to change the entire dynamic of the paranoia suite.

[Yuki Akuma]

On another note, considering running Infernals for a few specific people. Any suggestions for houserules/homebrew/other things? I'm so glad I have BWC now...

Definitely consider giving them at least one Excellency for free. Otherwise Infernals have a huge XP tax for raising their Essence. Especially if they try to diversify.

[IcarusWings]

On another note: the mindset of She who Lives in Her Name looks a lot like Autochthon's mindset, or at least that of an alchemical with his Clarity turned up high enough. How did they end up with two creepy, mechanically-minded, collectivist mad scientist primordials? What's the key difference between the two, besides one of them defecting? Is it just that Autocthon is more of an inventor and She is more of a straight empirical physicist?

I believe the main difference is that SWLihN looks at the world and wants it, indeed forces it, to conform to her beliefs about what it should be. Whereas Autochthon studies the world and uses what he discovers to create something new.

[Xefas]

Swilly can force order onto the world. But she also creates it.

They both have themes of tech, and physics, and science and all that stuff, but the main difference is that Swilly has this big theme of rigid hierarchy and conformism that Auto doesn't have, whereas Auto has a big theme of tools, improvisation, and spontaneous creativity that Swilly does not.

You can also see big Yozi similarities between Malfeas and Isidoros. They're both giant, heavily solipsistic entities with themes of crazy strength, asserting dominance, overkill, and not listening to people. But Malfeas is a King. Isidoros is a pig.

Primordials can share themes, certainly, and I think that if we knew more about the unnamed among the 23, we'd see even more such similarities.

EDIT: So, Auto is the mad scientist. Swilly is the shy but brilliant lab assistant who goes along with her boss's crazy schemes and runs damage control for him when his psychotic genius overflows.

[SurlySeraph]

I'm not sure infinite combos are as common as you think they are. Having a 2-die stunt on every rolled action usually means 4 motes or 1 willpower once when you're attacked, barring stunt modification magic like (Yozi) Mythos Exultant (you should probably ban actions that happen only to get stunts and therefore rewards). At that rate, if you can force a combo and at least 3 motes expended on the other guy every time you attack him, eventually his motes are going to be drained away. There is one infinite combo I am aware of that abuses Selfishness is Power, Who Strikes the Wind?'s tick long version, and Swillin's Mythos Exultant, though.

Yes, but given that this is a contest, having to play it out draining one mote at a time would be a total pain. Playing it out in such a way that using a combo actually drains your willpower, such that you can't get it back just by writing a few more sentences, will lead to much faster and interesting combats than two players writing variations on "Paranoia combo, whatever you spent your action on didn't work, I have a net loss of three motes, here is a description of my stunt" over and over.

[Kyeudo]

That kind of comes with stunts, though. They are always supposed to be rewards given after consideration. Some actions won't merit any stunt awards. Most will merit a 1-die stunt. 2- and 3-die stunts get progressively rarer.

2 die stunts are fairly easy to get. Mention a part of the enviroment and you're done. "I flip off the wall and slash at his head" meets the textbook definition of a 2-die stunt.

[Indon]

The problem is that, since the book is written assuming IRL play, it's trivially easy to get 2-die stunts for the texted based format. So what qualifies needs to be changed.

Plus, generally in PvP you don't want subjective things placed in the hands of the players.

Since the Test of Spite is about a laboratory environment style game, I don't think you should run stunts descriptively. Instead, give everyone a "Stunt Budget" of a certain number of 1, 2, and 3-dot stunts they may invoke nondescriptively at will. Give a bunch of 1's, a few 2's, and one or two 3's. This simulates stunt usage without requiring any adjudication at all.

Yes, it's boring, and a horrible hack on the Exalted system. But the Test of Spite is not about immersive storytelling, it's about mechanical optimization and strategic/tactical options. So I think that making stunt usage into another strategic/tactical option would best reflect that.

[The Rose Dragon]

2 die stunts are fairly easy to get. Mention a part of the enviroment and you're done. "I flip off the wall and slash at his head" meets the textbook definition of a 2-die stunt.

If the ST finds it appropriate. Stunts are always adjudicated by the Storyteller. If an ST says it's not a 2-die stunt, it's not a 2-die stunt.

[Tavar]

And therein lies the problem. Which is also why I asked for assistance.

I do think stunts should be part of the challenge, but I'm not really sure how to work them in, and be consistent at the same time.

Might end up going with the stunt budget idea.

[Psyborg]

On another note: the mindset of She who Lives in Her Name looks a lot like Autochthon's mindset, or at least that of an alchemical with his Clarity turned up high enough. How did they end up with two creepy, mechanically-minded, collectivist mad scientist primordials? What's the key difference between the two, besides one of them defecting? Is it just that Autocthon is more of an inventor and She is more of a straight empirical physicist?

I think so, yes. Autocthon is indeed a creature of order, but he's also a creature of...rational improvement, invention out of intelligent planning, creation guided by experimentation, etc.? As opposed to creation straight out of dreams, ideas, passions, or pure chaos; Autobot never created anything without drawing up a plan for it first. But he did lots of experiments, sometimes unintentional ones, often with unexpected results (see also: invention of soulsteel), and he was sufficiently fascinated by the outcomes of these experiments to alter future creations accordingly.

SWLiHN, to borrow some DnD terminology for a moment here, is a paragon of pure Lawful Neutral. If anyone's familiar with the concept of psionic godminds (from Dreamscarred Press' excellent psionic suplpements for 3.5e DnD), were the guiding sentience of the Plane of Mechanus to ascend to being a godmind, I think it would look very like She. I'm oversimplifying, of course, but she's that orderly.

She also reminds me of the Auditors, from Discworld.

Take, for example, the problem of maintaining the Loom of Fate. Autocthon designed/invented/created artificial, self-reproducing gods, the Pattern Spiders, who are almost (if not literally) infinitely complex machines, to manage and contain the chaos at a level low enough to keep Creation from exploding. SWLiHN would have preferred a purely mechanical automaton that wove the strands of Fate into perfect geometric or fractal patterns, and then raged when some Essence user spoiled the symmetry.

Autocthon's idea of art is to create something that's self-maintaining within a stable, generally accurate range, because it was cleverly and logically designed. SWLiHN's idea of art is to create a truly perfect representation of a Sierpinski triangle, or something similar.

At least, that's how I see them. I'm not sure it's quite canon, and YMMV even if it is, but it works.

(By the way, I see SWLiHN's major contribution to the basic fabric of Creation having been fundamental mathematical values: the values of e and pi (which she probably knows exactly), the concept of i (which is probably involved in creating magitech that accesses Elsewhere), the equality of distance in different dimensions (so a meter north is the same distance as a meter west), etc. Autocthon's was the foundation of the experimental principle- the idea that if the starting conditions are the same, the outcome will be the same, even if the experiments are performed at different times, or places, or observed with different instruments. Sort of a...specific subclause of general causality.)

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

...the main difference is that Swilly has this big theme of rigid hierarchy and conformism that Auto doesn't have, whereas Auto has a big theme of tools, improvisation, and spontaneous creativity that Swilly does not.

The Great Maker demands a good measure of conformity, comrade, but you are right; She HATES to improvise, while Auto is all for the unexpected, cheeky ideas.

Primordials can share themes, certainly, and I think that if we knew more about the unnamed among the 23, we'd see even more such similarities.

Agreed. I guess it would be kind of silly to expect no thematic overlap. You can't contrast something if there is nothing to not match up with. Even though they each know their way around the other's games, I think there's also a sense that Auto plays with legos and circuit boards while Swho Lihn plays with spreadsheets and dominoes.

So, Auto is the mad scientist. Swilly is the shy but brilliant lab assistant who goes along with her boss's crazy schemes and runs damage control for him when his psychotic genius overflows.

That works!

Edit @Psyborg: Also good! Though, my take on it is that She would have been the one to come up with empiricism in general. Autocthon came up with ways to use scientific observations, but was more concerned with ways to pass knowledge on to others - his favorite inventions were technology and dogma. Her favorite inventions would probably be the laws of gravity and thermodynamics.

She was probably pretty ticked when her little brother started pointing out the loopholes in her rules and exploiting them.

[Psyborg]

<cool stuff snipped> Her favorite inventions would probably be the laws of gravity and thermodynamics.

She was probably pretty ticked when her little brother started pointing out the loopholes in her rules and exploiting them.

I love it. Yeah, definitely...*grin* And good for him, too.

I also wonder if Autocthon's affection for mortals was inspired by the fact that they, too, are inventors and experimentors. Like, I can see the first time a mortal performed a deliberate experiment and redesigned something based on it being the moment when Autobot started viewing them as something more than just another ongoing experiment.

(Now, granted, that doesn't mean that he ever even approached actually comprehending mortals and mortality on their own level, but there's also no doubt that he knew they were something special, even if he was way off on what.)

[Kylarra]

Then why are you offering suggestions for something you consider pointless?

Hey, just because I consider it pointless doesn't mean I can't be vaguely curious about the outcome and other people's opinions. If we assume that both players are getting their choice of 4m/1wp twice per action (once on the attack and once for defense), the game will prolong pretty much indefinitely.

I do find the stunt budget to be a decent enough compromise though, even though it's essentially just storing more healthpacks.