Does Warhammer: Total War really deserve the scorn it gets?

[Malistrae]

As many of you already know, Warhammer: Total War was announced to a massive hype. For many, it was a dream come true: a TW game set in the awesome Warhammer Fantasy world. While there were some early rough patches (the only 4 playable factions at launch announcement for example), the game still managed to gain some solid support.

However, that all changed with the Chaos Warriors DLC announcement. Now, I am not going to be an apologist for CA, Sega or GW here. Day-one DLC is one of the most unethical if profitable forms of marketing available. However, I have seen many unreasonable claims made up about this. Personally, I always kept myself to the "4 factions at launch" promise, thus the DLC announcement didn't really shake me. I always knew I was going to pay extra for Chaos Warriors. For me, the immense rage is difficult to understand, because if you look at the CW unit roster, or the recently-released faction map (http://wiki.totalwar.com/images/9/9e...onstartmap.jpg), it becomes extremely clear that this faction was always meant to be a late-game NPC raiding/invasion faction (kinda like the Mongols or Timurids in Medieval 2), with a rather generic and underdeveloped roster (when compared to the three races already shown). This is important because I don't think the CW were cut and repackaged into DLC for greedy marketing purposes, rather they made a NPC faction playable with some minor touch ups for greedy marketing purposes. This is in-line with CA's early statements and hints that playable Chaos was coming post-launch. While both are done for the sake of more pre-orders, there is a fine line between the two.

Why am I going on this tangent? Because let's face it: Warhammer Fantasy is (un)dead. GW killed the franchise for the sake of AoS, and if Warhammer: Total War doesn't succeed, we will almost certainly never get a proper WF strategy game, ever. Why would GW or game developers invest in products that are unable to succeed? Which brings me to my cardinal point: I understand people's anger about DLC bs, but let's look at the big picture: the hatestorm people generated is completely blown out of proportions. People are raging and threatening to boycott the game for something that is common practice today (even if it was executed rather poorly). Why would we care about this? Because if GW and/or Sega decides that W:TW will be a total flop, they won't give CA the money to produce the two standalone expansions. And then we will never have HE, DE, WE or Ogre Kingdoms, etc. in our games.

Sure, for some purists, this is an acceptable compromise. But scorched earth tactics ultimately hurt both sides, and will stake WF's heart, thus ending the whole thing for decades, if not forever.

And personally, I have been following the videos and dev blogs very closely. I can really see that they are trying out some rather fresh ideas for Total War that spice up the formula in radical ways (like the way occupation will work). I mean, the Greenskins look extremely fun and novel to play as.

Ultimately, I guess I am just a really selfish NE person. I want to enjoy my Warhammer: Total War game and I don't want to be deprived of content because of some "fanatics". I know CA/GW/Sega is the primary culprit here, but people are way overreacting, imo.

[endur]

I pre-ordered.

That being said, I think that the team producing the game made a mistake in listing Chaos as the DLC race.

Warhammer Core Races are:
Empire, High Elves, Dwarves, and Lizardmen
Chaos, Vampire Counts, Orcs/Goblins, Dark Elves, and Skaven

Good races for DLC: Bretonia (after introducing Empire), Wood Elves (after introducing High Elves), Tomb Kings (after introducing Vampire Counts) , Ogre Kingdoms (after seeing ogres in Empire and/or Orcs/Goblin armies).

Chaos is one of the top 3 most popular evil armies, and possibly the most popular evil army. It was a poor choice for DLC.

Compare that to XCom 2. The XCom 2 release day DLC is reskinned armor for your resistance warriors. A nice reskin, but not a core component of the game play.

[Malistrae]

I pre-ordered.

That being said, I think that the team producing the game made a mistake in listing Chaos as the DLC race.

Warhammer Core Races are:
Empire, High Elves, Dwarves, and Lizardmen
Chaos, Vampire Counts, Orcs/Goblins, Dark Elves, and Skaven

Good races for DLC: Bretonia (after introducing Empire), Wood Elves (after introducing High Elves), Tomb Kings (after introducing Vampire Counts) , Ogre Kingdoms (after seeing ogres in Empire and/or Orcs/Goblin armies).

Chaos is one of the top 3 most popular evil armies, and possibly the most popular evil army. It was a poor choice for DLC.

Compare that to XCom 2. The XCom 2 release day DLC is reskinned armor for your resistance warriors. A nice reskin, but not a core component of the game play.

I also pre-ordered. Chaos Warriors were always my third favorite army after VC and Skaven. And we are in total agreement that making CW a pre-order DLC was a PR disaster and a very unwise move. But I would like to point out that we knew that CW were always supposed to be either DLC or standalone-expansion content, since they said "4 factions at launch". Making it a simple post-launch DLC would have been probably a much smarter move. I simply disagreed with people who say that CW was a playable faction cut from launch and made into a pre-order DLC because CA/GW/Sega greed.

This raises the question of with what factions will the other two games launch (both having 4-4 factions at launch). Skaven and Wood Elves are out, since their territories are in the first game's map, so they can't be really a part of a standalone expansion (meaning they will be DLC). Maybe we will see Chaos Daemons and Beastmen? It would make sense, since the 99% certain New World expansion with DE, HE and Lizardmen lacks a fourth faction (Amazons I can only see as potential DLC), and we do know that there is a large concentration of Beastmen not far from Naggaroth. This means that the other standalone expansion (which will likely add Araby, Nehekhara, the Dark Lands and the Ogre Kingdoms and maybe the Dragon Isles) will have Tomb Kings, Chaos Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Daemons (coming in from the north).

On the subject of DLC, I am pretty sure that the promised free-lcs will be Brettonia and Kislev. They are both relatively mundane, with not a lot of asset making involved.

[Eldan]

I could see DE/HE/Lizardman/Skaven, like the old Lustria campaign. Make the campaign focus on pestilens in Lustria for the Skaven.

And there could be a non-map extending one featuring factions already on the map, as it were: Skaven/Bretonnia/Beastmen/Daemons, for example.

And yeah. If Kislev/Tilea/Estalia/Araby etc. ever become playable, a lot can probably be done with Empire reskins.

[Manticoran]

*Shrug* I haven't pre-ordered yet, but I'm fairly certain I will. This doesn't bother me at all.

I think the reason you see so much backlash is because the people who are fine with it aren't commenting, so it looks like everyone is pissed despite that a large percentage honestly don't give a crap.

[otakuryoga]

I think the reason you see so much backlash is because the people who are fine with it aren't commenting, so it looks like everyone is pissed despite that a large percentage honestly don't give a crap.

[Malistrae]

I could see DE/HE/Lizardman/Skaven, like the old Lustria campaign. Make the campaign focus on pestilens in Lustria for the Skaven.

And there could be a non-map extending one featuring factions already on the map, as it were: Skaven/Bretonnia/Beastmen/Daemons, for example.

And yeah. If Kislev/Tilea/Estalia/Araby etc. ever become playable, a lot can probably be done with Empire reskins.

The problem with Pestilens is that they are "heretical", with their culture being very distinct from the rest of the Skaven. They shouldn't be the playable representative of the Skaven race. Furthermore, placing them in Lustria could have worked if the campaign maps didn't combine. Having Skaven in Lustria but not in the Empire is just silly (since their Under-Empire is just below Brettonia/Empire/Tilea/Estalia/Kislev).

A non-map extending major expansion is out of the question, since the 2 were stated to be standalone that add new campaign maps that combine with the other standalone parts you have into a single Grand Campaign map. This doesn't mean we can't get a big dlc pack that adds several races at once.


Personally, I would implement Skaven in the following way:

Skaven would inhabit special "warren" settlements. These warrens don't give control over any in-game surface region, are usually located next to Empire cities and are unoccupiable by non-Skaven. These settlements are also invisible to non-Skaven factions unless specific actions are taken by heroes and even then only reveal the warren (making it attackable for razing or sacking) for a limited amount of time. Skaven armies would have a slightly improved version of the underway stance and it would be their default stance, even allowing recruitment while remaining in it (essentially giving the Skaven stealth-armies). Skaven can only occupy warrens and dwarf/orc strongholds.

The Skaven themselves would be divided into the playable Skavens, a bunch of AI clans and Skavenblight. Skavenblight is an SPQR/Papacy-esque faction that is morbidly powerful, but not expansionist (since the Council of Thirteen is too mired in backroom dealings and politics to do anything effectively). The AI Skaven groups are extremely treacherous and murderous, often attacking each other and the player Skaven at the slightest hint of weakness, but are cowardly and just as quick to make peace once the power balance has shifted out of their favor. At the start of the campaign, the playable Skaven are a Grey Seer-sponsored multi-clan contigent tasked by the Skavenblight Council of Thirteen with various errands and missions, undertaken for the glory of the Skaven race. The player would have to deal with the capricious demands of the Council, the backstabbing and frequently hostile AI Skaven groups, and evading detection by surface-dwellers, while building a stable powerbase for himself. Once the player attains sufficient amount of power, a quest chain would trigger that would ultimately result in the player Legendary Lord (Thanquol, obviously) becoming Seerlord. This would dissolve the Skavenblight faction, adding its powerful armies and supremely wealthy warren to the player faction. Then, the player would finish uniting the remaining Skaven and embark on a world domination ploy of razing the man- and dwarf-things into oblivion...

Edit: This would also make the Skaven factions super-mysterious. Just like in fluff, surface-dwellers would have little idea of the internal power struggles within the Under-Empire. Speaking of that, I just realized that my proposed Skaven implementation is similar to a dark parody of the Empire's in-game progression (unite the different factions of your empire and face external threats).

[Vitruviansquid]

In answer to the question posed in this thread's topic: no.

I am going to explain this in two parts. First, why people heap so much scorn on TW: Warhammer, and second, why that scorn is wrongheaded.

Ever since the launch of Rome 2, it has been fashionable to hate on and criticize the Creative Assembly. I can hardly fault anyone for this, because Rome 2's launch was bull ****. It was a mess of bugs, the game was radically changed from predecessors and not clearly for the better, and the pre-release advertisements for the game clearly misrepresented how the game was going to be. Ever since the release of Rome 2, there has been a predisposition of distrust toward CA. It also doesn't help that Chaos DLC is the "Day one DLC" that many high profile video game critics have been activists against, and you can see that many people will point to it as evidence of how treacherous CA has continually been, and how they are continually swindling their fans. It also also doesn't help that many Total War fans have been predisposed to dislike TW: Warhammer to begin with. There are quite a number of Total War fans who are adamant that CA must continually make historical games, and feel betrayed that Total War has "sold out" to go fantasy.

So, why doesn't TW: Warhammer deserve the scorn it receives?

1. Times have changed since the launch of Rome 2. CA has been *extremely* open to the community after the launch of Attila, and has shown us an incredible wealth of information about the appearance and mechanics of Warhammer. I feel that CA was still trying to discover how best to be transparent about their unreleased game while Attila was being released (a big mistake was them displaying the game on twitch streams people had to catch rather than showing it off on their website, so a lot of people missed a lot of information they could've got on the stream), but we know *a ton* about Total War: Warhammer. We know the unit rosters of the three revealed factions (we even know that CA has changed them and added to them), we know how the tech trees work, how hero level ups work, how a lot of the new strategy layer mechanics work, and so on.

CA has also been delivering more to us for the same cost. You can even trace just how much harder CA has been working on the content for each dollar we spend by looking at the DLCs released for Attila. Chronologically, each DLC culture pack has been getting larger and more content-rich compared the previous one. Objectively speaking, we have been getting more bang for the buck every culture pack in Attila.

So yes, CA was incredibly scummy about the release of Rome 2, but you can't also ignore how much they've tried to make peace with the community and get themselves less scummy. I personally think they have done a very good job, but you can browse around for information about TW: Warhammer and make that decision for yourself.

2. The attack against "Day 1 DLC" doesn't make sense in the first place. Think about it. Every chunk of content that CA makes costs them man-hours, which must be paid for. Thus, you can think of every chunk of content as worth a money amount. Now, CA is making the game not in order to make back what they spend, but in order to make a profit - it would be insane of them to not want to make money off of their game. Now, the people arguing against Day 1 DLC are usually talking in terms of "cut content" - that CA made a product worth 60 dollars, then cut out some of the product to re-sell to us and make, say, 75 dollars off of it and thus make 15 dollars more profit than normal. This is foolish, as there is no rule saying how much profit off of how much product a company can make. The company can spend 2 dollars in development and sell the game for 100 dollars for all I care, so long as that game offers an experience worth the 100 dollars. Rather, the rule is that *you* the consumer should not buy anything that you don't think is worth the value. Yet if they were trying to swindle the consumer, CA has shown more of TW: Warhammer than they have of any other Total War game before release. You can make an extremely well informed judgment of whether TW: Warhammer is worth your money before you buy. At the end of the day, the Chaos DLC is CA offering you a very honest proposition: "here is what we can show you about Total War: Warhammer, you can buy it for 60 dollars or pay more for the Chaos DLC to go with it, or buy it before seeing reviews for the Chaos DLC to go with it."

The other attack leveled against CA is that their day 1 DLC is a ploy to get people to buy the game before being able to see reviews about it. Yes, this is the EFFECT of pre-order DLC. If you don't like it, don't pre-order, CA has always sold pre-order DLC for Total War games later on, for a reasonable price. Unfortunately, a lot of companies beside CA/Sega sell pre-order DLC because pre-order DLC is awfully convenient for the way video games are made and sold. It is very useful to have a chunk of money come in before actual sales begins so they can project how much actual sales will be, and plan around it. CA has also shown us so much about Total War: Warhammer I find it very difficult to believe CA has any ploy to trick us into buying their game.

[Murmaider]

Honestly, the DLC anouncement didn't shock me either, but for another reason. I knew it was going to happen. And it was planned, ironically, from day one. It's CA we're talking about here. The same company that released day one dlc for an expansion, after they got huge negative backlash for doing the same thing in the game before. And the game before... and the game before.

"But hey, you can always preorder and get the dlc for free, right?"

Sure, just ask the people who preordered Rome 2. They must've been so happy with all the free stuff included in their broken game. CA hasn't done anything to trust them with preorder again. They can be open with the gameplay of their game all they want, it still doesn't tell me anything about potentially broken game mechanics, unbalanced factions and insufficient playtesting.

[Manticoran]

Sure, just ask the people who preordered Rome 2. They must've been so happy with all the free stuff included in their broken game. CA hasn't done anything to trust them with preorder again. They can be open with the gameplay of their game all they want, it still doesn't tell me anything about potentially broken game mechanics, unbalanced factions and insufficient playtesting.

A note that at least personally, I care if the game mechanics are BROKEN, but I don't really care about unbalanced or insufficient playtesting. It's Warhammer, I'm not sure I even WANT it to be "balanced" by conventional terms. I want the AI of certain factions to not completely stomp each other, and I want a chance to win as any given faction when I'm playing as it, but I'd be very surprised if that wasn't the case anyway.

[Malistrae]

A note that at least personally, I care if the game mechanics are BROKEN, but I don't really care about unbalanced or insufficient playtesting. It's Warhammer, I'm not sure I even WANT it to be "balanced" by conventional terms. I want the AI of certain factions to not completely stomp each other, and I want a chance to win as any given faction when I'm playing as it, but I'd be very surprised if that wasn't the case anyway.

Agreed. Perfect balance at launch is impossible. If there are no game-breaking bugs, I will be perfectly content. Although, for some strange reason, TW games almost never bugged out for me. Not even Rome 2 at launch, which I am told was a complete bugfest. Maybe it's because I reserve manual battles for important stuff, and usually auto-resolve any battle with more than a 50% win chance. The campaign map might have been less bugged or something.
Nevertheless, W:TW will be the first TW game where I intend to manually resolve the majority of my battles (since I am much more invested in Warhammer Fantasy than RL history). So, I hope CA won't mess it up.

Edit: I also want to address one of the major misconceptions about the game that seems to have recently sprung up. The campaign is not 1 vs 1 faction. Just because the Empire can't occupy Dwarven holds, doesn't mean they can't attack and raze/loot them. Another, more low-key, hatestorm is being generated over this. But it makes perfect sense. Why would humans want to live in near-unhospitable Greenskin wastelands or Dwarven holds? Or why would Greenskins want to live in Imperial cities?

[Murmaider]

Edit: I also want to address one of the major misconceptions about the game that seems to have recently sprung up. The campaign is not 1 vs 1 faction. Just because the Empire can't occupy Dwarven holds, doesn't mean they can't attack and raze/loot them. Another, more low-key, hatestorm is being generated over this. But it makes perfect sense. Why would humans want to live in near-unhospitable Greenskin wastelands or Dwarven holds? Or why would Greenskins want to live in Imperial cities?

Because for many players Total War games are map painting simulators. Getting new lands and cities as an easy way to show progress and achievements. Conquering the whole map may not be historical(), but it's what some people set for themselves as goals instead of the arbitrary ingame victory conditions.

Also, why would some races not want to control some other races' cities? They can use their resources, make use of the strategic position of a city, or just use the population as slave laborers.

[Manticoran]

I also want to address one of the major misconceptions about the game that seems to have recently sprung up. The campaign is not 1 vs 1 faction. Just because the Empire can't occupy Dwarven holds, doesn't mean they can't attack and raze/loot them. Another, more low-key, hatestorm is being generated over this. But it makes perfect sense. Why would humans want to live in near-unhospitable Greenskin wastelands or Dwarven holds? Or why would Greenskins want to live in Imperial cities?

Ehhhhhh. Orcs and Goblins would totally live in Imperial cities, they just wouldn't resemble Imperial cities for very long after Orcs were living in them. Dwarves would be unlikely to settle places that aren't their holds, Empire would be unlikely to settle Dwarven Holds, but Greenskins would settle ANYWHERE.

Vampire Counts similarly are perfectly happy having their undead armies be undead dwarves or undead peasants or undead orcs.

So basically...

Dwarves wouldn't conquer anyone, but would love killing Greenskins/Chaos(Chaos might HAVE Dwarf Holdings, though, that the Dwarves would be happy to take back. Same with Greenskins/Vamps)/vamps, but probably wouldn't conquer land.

Orcs/Goblins would likely conquer everyone except maybe Vampire Counts/Chaos, just due how completely useless both of those factions make the land? And they'd love fighting EVERYONE.

Empire would likely like fighting everyone but Dwarves, and would be happy conquering basically any territory they could, although likely not too far out from the Empire, they'd be happy to have forts a little into Chaos territory, or a little into Orc territory, just to have to keep from fighting on farms. They'd possibly be happy to conquer Vampire Count territory, just because Vampire Count lands tend to revert to fairly normal after you scrub the undead out, since the Undead rely on new life for new minions as much as anyone else does.

Vampire Counts would fight EVERYONE. And conquer EVERYONE. Dead things make zombies, regardless of what kind of alive thing it used to be.

Chaos the same? Kind of? Depends on which kind of Chaos we're going for here, but they might be perfectly happy having Imperial cities filled with cultists. There probably wouldn't be much for them in Dwarf/Vampire Count/Orc lands, but I could see them conquering human territory, and they'd want to kill everyone else certainly.

[Malistrae]

Ehhhhhh. Orcs and Goblins would totally live in Imperial cities, they just wouldn't resemble Imperial cities for very long after Orcs were living in them. Dwarves would be unlikely to settle places that aren't their holds, Empire would be unlikely to settle Dwarven Holds, but Greenskins would settle ANYWHERE.

Vampire Counts similarly are perfectly happy having their undead armies be undead dwarves or undead peasants or undead orcs.

So basically...

Dwarves wouldn't conquer anyone, but would love killing Greenskins/Chaos(Chaos might HAVE Dwarf Holdings, though, that the Dwarves would be happy to take back. Same with Greenskins/Vamps)/vamps, but probably wouldn't conquer land.

Orcs/Goblins would likely conquer everyone except maybe Vampire Counts/Chaos, just due how completely useless both of those factions make the land? And they'd love fighting EVERYONE.

Empire would likely like fighting everyone but Dwarves, and would be happy conquering basically any territory they could, although likely not too far out from the Empire, they'd be happy to have forts a little into Chaos territory, or a little into Orc territory, just to have to keep from fighting on farms. They'd possibly be happy to conquer Vampire Count territory, just because Vampire Count lands tend to revert to fairly normal after you scrub the undead out, since the Undead rely on new life for new minions as much as anyone else does.

Vampire Counts would fight EVERYONE. And conquer EVERYONE. Dead things make zombies, regardless of what kind of alive thing it used to be.

Chaos the same? Kind of? Depends on which kind of Chaos we're going for here, but they might be perfectly happy having Imperial cities filled with cultists. There probably wouldn't be much for them in Dwarf/Vampire Count/Orc lands, but I could see them conquering human territory, and they'd want to kill everyone else certainly.

Meh. You are right about Greenskins and Vampire Counts. Vampire Counts should have the ability to conquer dwarf/greenskin lands, since undead slaves really don't care about their place of residence.
However, I heavily disagree about Empire occupying even the most southern Chaos territories. That is the prime recipe for disaster. The best case scenario: your entire garrison goes bonkers and slaughter each other, the worst case: they start worshipping Chaos. Meanwhile, Norsca, while not part of the Chaos Wastes, is simply too inhospitable for Empire citizens. I mean, have you seen Norscans? They are obviously the toughest humans in the setting, and they just barely manage to eke out a rural/raiding existence.
And about Chaos: the at-launch Chaos Warriors faction seems to represent the roving hordes of the Wastes. The guys who make the incursions we all know and love. They are not exactly the civic-management types. I mean, based on the faction map we got, I seriously doubt if Chaos would even occupy any territory in the game (since their starting location in the Chaos Wastes is not colored in any faction's color). I suspect they are going to be a purely mobile, nomadic horde faction with reinforcements being recruited in the "safe" Chaos Wastes. This makes sense, as creating a permanent settlement in the Wastes is kinda doomed to fail. The Research Devblog also states that their tech tree is based upon their "champions unlocking the blessings of the Dark Gods", suggesting a hero-focused faction development.
However, my main point was that the whole occupation separation was actually not a bad idea. Sure, it could use some polish and fine-tuning, but the core idea is great, imo.

[Manticoran]

However, I heavily disagree about Empire occupying even the most southern Chaos territories. That is the prime recipe for disaster. The best case scenario: your entire garrison goes bonkers and slaughter each other, the worst case: they start worshipping Chaos. Meanwhile, Norsca, while not part of the Chaos Wastes, is simply too inhospitable for Empire citizens. I mean, have you seen Norscans? They are obviously the toughest humans in the setting, and they just barely manage to eke out a rural/raiding existence....
However, my main point was that the whole occupation separation was actually not a bad idea. Sure, it could use some polish and fine-tuning, but the core idea is great, imo.

Eh. I don't think they'd go very deep into the Chaos Wastes, but Empire sets up fortifications and whatnot in the common paths of Chaos Incursions in what are arguably non-Empire territories, just due to the lack of populace/control over the general area.

And I agree with you, but felt like you could have been more specific about what factions could not-conquer in what ways. So I was.

[Hiro Protagonest]

2. The attack against "Day 1 DLC" doesn't make sense in the first place. Think about it. Every chunk of content that CA makes costs them man-hours, which must be paid for. Thus, you can think of every chunk of content as worth a money amount. Now, CA is making the game not in order to make back what they spend, but in order to make a profit - it would be insane of them to not want to make money off of their game.

Games Workshop is a company that, honestly, is just looking out for itself. People hate its business practices because that's their entire philosophy. Day 1 DLC is like that.

XCOM 2 released a Day 1 DLC called "Resistance Warrior." You know what this did? It added a few clothing options to the game. Something for the artists (both concept and rendering) to work on while all the balance issues were being hammered out. That's fine.

It's ultimately about the fact that it's Day 1 DLC and Chaos DLC, the most popular evil faction. If it were one of those (DLC gate for a popular faction, or something that you have to pay extra for even though it's released at the same time), it would be skirting the edge. Both? That's bad.

And they didn't name it "Total Warhammer"

[Murmaider]

edit: I don't think GW has anything to do with the end product or how it's sold. They are just shilling out their franchises willy-nilly and are trying to make as much money with as little effort as possible.

It's ultimately about the fact that it's Day 1 DLC and Chaos DLC, the most popular evil faction. If it were one of those (DLC gate for a popular faction, or something that you have to pay extra for even though it's released at the same time), it would be skirting the edge. Both? That's bad.

And it happens every time.

Shogun 2: Hattori

Rome 2: Spartans

Attila: Vikings

Warwar Totalhammer: Chaos

Beginning to see the pattern? I just can't believe anyone who tells me, Chaos being day 1 dlc, wasn't planned from the get go. But hey, there is also another recuring theme in those dlcs. The preorder factions were all pretty uninspired and didn't differentiate much from other factions already in the game. So you don't need to shill out those extra 15 bucks after all.

[Erloas]

It may have changed, but I know when GW licensed out WHFB for WAR online they had to approve pretty much every piece of art and some of the general ideas and themes. I'm not sure if they are still that involved or not and I have no idea if something like DLC would be part of that.

But the cynic in me that knows GW for far too long knows that if there was any way for them to make more money from the game they would be all over it even if it was bad for the game or screwed over the fan base in the process. If they get anything from DLC sold, then I could easily see GW suggesting that the most interesting and "buy me" type of races would be put into DLC.

[Vitruviansquid]

It does not matter how the DLC was planned, or when the DLC was made. CA is selling you their work, and they get to dictate how that work is sold.

[Malistrae]

Eh. I don't think they'd go very deep into the Chaos Wastes, but Empire sets up fortifications and whatnot in the common paths of Chaos Incursions in what are arguably non-Empire territories, just due to the lack of populace/control over the general area.

And I agree with you, but felt like you could have been more specific about what factions could not-conquer in what ways. So I was.

Actually, the Empire can conquer territories outside of the Empire proper, based on this map:

As we can clearly see, the Empire can choose to occupy the Oblasts and the Troll Country if they wish. And that's pretty much as close to the Wastes you can get without having to deal with its corrupting effects. Personally, I would not occupy this territory directly in my games. Instead, I would set up vassal buffer states, so that I can blunt the teeth of Chaos incursions before having to deal with them myself.

But yeah, we are in near-total agreement. I was over-simplifying my explanation for the region occupation mechanisms.

(Btw, I would have never considered playing as the Empire. But then I heard we can choose Gelt as our starting Legendary Lord and I was immediately sold. Franz might be the Emperor in either case, but the player's avatar is Gelt. And who doesn't want to be a shiny, golden Dr. Doom?)

[dancrilis]

The game has my interest, and while I don't like pricey downloadable content normally, it is just the way Warhammer has always been - buy the 70quid starter box, than spend more to get the army you want, and more to get the specific units you want in that army.

Half joking.

Anyway they seem to have removed the preorder linked to the chaos download bit on steam - which if it is true I am happy about (paying for new races later would be fine).

[Vaz]

Bretonnians. Guard Mode. Using Flying creatures. Lots of Trebuchets. Tactical Orcs. Magic use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_AD4gHVrWU