The Warhammer Models Thread III: A Brush With Death

[Destro_Yersul]

The black basecoat is still showing through. That is, incidentally, why I recommended white basecoat. At this stage, you want to add more watery coats of skin colour until they cover the black. That may take seemingly forever.

After that, you can paint details or drybrush the fur, if you want, then wash everything for the details. I recommend a reddish wash for the skin and a brown wash for everything else.

In my opinion, White basecoat is a terrible, terrible thing. I paint all my miniatures up from black. Sometimes you have to do a few extra layers, but the end result is always much better.

This, for example, started out sprayed black:


Your advice on washes is good, though. In the case of Skaven, Sepia could probably work for skin, but I'd try it on a test miniature first, or just get a flesh wash.

[Eldan]

You can layer from a black undercoat, but in my opinion, if you have a light coloured model, it's just much easier. He wants albino rats in light clothing. That just says white basecoat to me.

[Destro_Yersul]

To me it says Black Undercoat and some high-pigment greys. Using white is easier, sure, but if you want it to look good black wins every time.

[LCP]

I always used to use black undercoat, because it made shading so much easier. When I started the grand re-painting of my Lizardmen, though, I went for a white undercoat because I wanted vibrant colours. It does make a real difference, but at the same time you have to be a lot more careful to go over every nook and cranny of the model. A patch of black in a crevice looks like shadow; a patch of white looks unfinished.

It's going to come down to personal preference, but if I was doing it I'd use black in this case. A white Skaven is still a Skaven; it ought to look grubby and dirty, and the white fur will stand out more against dark and grimy colours for the clothes and weapons. With the fur texture you'll get a better effect as well I think if you layer up to white over a black undercoat and grey (or maybe light brown) basecoat.

Also, if you're painting Skaven for tabletop use, you're going to need to paint a lot of them, and black is just faster.

[AgentPaper]

Actually, most of my army (the clanrats and slaves) will be the normal skaven colors, with brown-red, gray, or black fur. Only the Stormvermin are actually albino, and only the Plague Monks have a lot of white clothing. Those will be centerpiece units, so I don't mind taking a bit of extra time on them.

Anyways, I went ahead and did a wash last night after it dried, and here's the result:

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Turned out better than I thought. Not great, but good enough for a slave, and hopefully I can do better next time. Note that the splash of white on his face is intentional. I'm thinking that the basic rank and file all have something like this, where they basically just slap some whitewash on their face to try and be more like their albino rat god.

Thanks for the advice, I'll try the layering thing, but what colors do I layer with for which parts? Or do I just need to add a second layer of the same stuff if the black is bleeding through? Or do I just put on a heavier coat to begin with?

I also need advice for the eyes. I got some red ink, but trying to put that on was rather disastrous. I want to give them all red glowing eyes, how do I go about that? I thought I remembered using red ink for this, but I guess I need red paint?

Also, now that I've finished (sorta) one model, I think I remember you're supposed to cover it with some kind of finisher to protect the paint, aren't you? I guess I'll need to buy some of that as well.

[Destro_Yersul]

I also need advice for the eyes. I got some red ink, but trying to put that on was rather disastrous. I want to give them all red glowing eyes, how do I go about that? I thought I remembered using red ink for this, but I guess I need red paint?

Probably the easiest way to do that would just be to use regular red paint. If you want it to look brighter, do the eyes white, then do red overtop of that. You might have to clean up the face around the eyes a bit after that.

[AgentPaper]

Also, any suggestions on brushes? I only have one brush right now that's small enough and in good enough shape to be usable, which is making it really hard to do the finer details, and probably not helping with consistency either since even it is a bit frayed.

[Eldan]

There's two brushes you really need, in my experience. A detail brush, the finest and least frayed you can find, and a drybrush, if you want to do drybrushing. It helps to get a larger brush, too, for base coats and other large parts. Saves you a bit of wear on the detail brushes.

[Destro_Yersul]

Yeah, I use four or five brushes, myself. I have a tank brush for large flat surfaces, a standard sort of size brush for drybrushing, and then two very very find brushes for details.

[AgentPaper]

Ok, so besides the brush, I also seem to be having trouble with the paint as well now. Specifically, it seems like no matter what I do, I always get a ton of bleed from the black basecoat. Is there some way of preventing this that I don't know about? Or is this an issue with the paints I have?

[Jormengand]

Ok, so besides the brush, I also seem to be having trouble with the paint as well now. Specifically, it seems like no matter what I do, I always get a ton of bleed from the black basecoat. Is there some way of preventing this that I don't know about? Or is this an issue with the paints I have?

Use imperial primer if you're not already.

[Eldan]

There's not much you can do. Over a black basecoat, you will always need several coats of paint to prevent the bleed. Just make sure that every coat is thin, or you end up with the most common beginner problem, entire walls of paint obscuring model details.

[AgentPaper]

There's not much you can do. Over a black basecoat, you will always need several coats of paint to prevent the bleed. Just make sure that every coat is thin, or you end up with the most common beginner problem, entire walls of paint obscuring model details.

I've tried this, but the paint always runs to the same places (usually the cracks and detail bits), so each layer I add does very little to prevent the bleed and a lot to obscure the details.

[Yaktan]

To me it sounds like your paint is too thin. What I do is make sure to get my brush really dry before I put any paint on, and then dip it just barely in the water if it is too thick.

[Eldan]

Probably also too much paint on the brush, just barely dip it in.

[Grim Portent]

Well I've finally gotten around to taking some photos of my models and I figured that this would be the first place to get some critiques from,


My Alpha Legion Sorcerer

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My Warpsmith

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Some Nurgle Daemons

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And a couple of Beastmen

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I'm still a bit iffy on my fleshtones but I'm quite proud of my Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors colours.

EDIT: Hmm, seems the pictures aren't showing up, that's rather annoying.

EDIT 2:Fixed the pictures.

[Winterwind]

Well I've finally gotten around to taking some photos of my models and I figured that this would be the first place to get some critiques from,


My Alpha Legion Sorcerer

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My Warpsmith

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Some Nurgle Daemons

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And a couple of Beastmen

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I'm still a bit iffy on my fleshtones but I'm quite proud of my Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors colours.

EDIT: Hmm, seems the pictures aren't showing up, that's rather annoying.

In Photobucket, you want to click on those buttons at the right side where it says IMG. Properly linked, your pictures would be:

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Sorcerer:


Warpsmith:


Nurgle Daemons:



Beastmen:

Nice, by the way.

[Grim Portent]

Thanks Winter, it occurs to me that may be the reason my custom avatar doesn't work as well.

[CreganTur]

Here's the dirty little secret about priming: It doesn't matter what you do as long as you have the techniques to get the results you want.

I swing randomly between black and white primer depending on the project. I most often use black for table top quality paintjobs and white for competition pieces.

But, more recently, I've been using both to do some zenithal hightlighting prep. I'll base it in black and then spray on white from the direction of my 'light source.' I've been using thin layers of paint so that the impact of the zenithal priming gives me some visible contrast to work with. This is a technique mastery thing that saves me a little initial work.

While preference is a completely fine and good thing, there really is no 'one true way' to paint a miniature. There are definately best practices for many, many things, but for every rule about painting I know of at least 1 excellent painter online who breaks that particular rule and still gets amazing results. The reason for this is, as stated above, their techniques allow them to get the results they want. Their technique choices may be fighting them to some degree, and some things may take longer than they should, but in the end it still works. That's all that truly matters in the end.

[Destro_Yersul]

Well I've finally gotten around to taking some photos of my models and I figured that this would be the first place to get some critiques from.

Okay, first of all, apologies for the weird post format, but I wanted to make it clear which mini I was talking about in which section. Second, I am by no means a painting expert, but I do get decent results (see above for elf riding a lion). So, constructive criticism time.

My Alpha Legion Sorcerer

I'd like to see some more definition on this guy. More highlights, that sort of thing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like what you've done is painted things in flat colours and then applied washes. This works fairly well on the tabard and robe, but less well on areas with less in in the way of contours and other such detail. Power Armour, largely, is smooth, and needs highlights of some variety. Applying a lighter paint to highlight the contours on the robe and things before washing them might help bring those out a little more too. I also think those skulls he's got would benefit from being more of a bone colour and less pure white - this applies to both the human one on the chain and the horned one on his belt. Colour scheme is good, though. I think it'd look really good if you did a few more highlights and maybe dropped the brightness of the tabard a bit to closer match the green on his gauntlets.

My Warpsmith

This guy is Iron Warriors, yes? Is he a conversion? If he is, very nice. The main problem Iron Warriors have is that large areas of a single colour tend to blend together a bit, visually. Adding the bronze (or is that gold? Hard to tell with the lighting) is a nice touch, and helps a lot with reducing the blending, but this is still a predominantly silver mini. If you're confident in your freehand, find somewhere to add a bit of the black and yellow hazard striping that iron warriors love so much.Also, see if you can find a good tutorial on painting gemstones and lenses, and do that to the ones on his head.

This one is pretty good. Third page. Though you'd need red instead of purple, it still works - just use blood red and blazing orange, or equivalent, instead of purple and white, except for that final dot.

Did I say I love the bronze yet? Because I do.

Some Nurgle Daemons

And a couple of Beastmen

I lumped these together because I have less to say about them. Very nicely done on the nurgle daemons. I especially like the fly-headed one. Try to do the teeth on the nurglings a different colour from the rest of them. GW's old vomit brown and desert yellow paints work well for rotting teeth. You may need a very tiny brush.

I think the beastmen are actually my favourite of the lot. The washes work very well for them, they look all dark and grimy and like proper beastment. Especially like the armour on the one with the melee weapon. Very nice. Again, more highlights would help, but for tabletop quality those are perfectly fine.

Here's the dirty little secret about priming: It doesn't matter what you do as long as you have the techniques to get the results you want.

I swing randomly between black and white primer depending on the project. I most often use black for table top quality paintjobs and white for competition pieces.

But, more recently, I've been using both to do some zenithal hightlighting prep. I'll base it in black and then spray on white from the direction of my 'light source.' I've been using thin layers of paint so that the impact of the zenithal priming gives me some visible contrast to work with. This is a technique mastery thing that saves me a little initial work.

While preference is a completely fine and good thing, there really is no 'one true way' to paint a miniature. There are definately best practices for many, many things, but for every rule about painting I know of at least 1 excellent painter online who breaks that particular rule and still gets amazing results. The reason for this is, as stated above, their techniques allow them to get the results they want. Their technique choices may be fighting them to some degree, and some things may take longer than they should, but in the end it still works. That's all that truly matters in the end.

Heh. Well said. Using both black and white is a very interesting idea, though I don't know if I'll look into that or not for my own work. I really do prefer to use black for all things, myself.

[The Orange Zergling]

My army is largely painted stark white, and I don't think I could possibly retain my sanity if I primed them black. In my opinion, priming a white model black is just adding completely unnecessary steps. Especially since black is a very opaque color, whereas white lets more light through and requires more layers to obscure the colors below it; it's much easier to darken a white model than it is to brighten a black one.

Here are some of the relevant models in my army:

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All I do for my Lizards is prime them white, wash the recesses with black ink then put a layer of white over all the raised areas. A Saurus Warrior takes about an hour and a half to go from primed to completed, half that for a Skink. I'm not the best painter in the world by a long shot, but I do get complimented on my painting pretty frequently.

[Jormengand]

My army is largely painted stark white, and I don't think I could possibly retain my sanity if I primed them black. In my opinion, priming a white model black is just adding completely unnecessary steps. Especially since black is a very opaque color, whereas white lets more light through and requires more layers to obscure the colors below it; it's much easier to darken a white model than it is to brighten a black one.

Here are some of the relevant models in my army:

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All I do for my Lizards is prime them white, wash the recesses with black ink then put a layer of white over all the raised areas. A Saurus Warrior takes about an hour and a half to go from primed to completed, half that for a Skink. I'm not the best painter in the world by a long shot, but I do get complimented on my painting pretty frequently.

The saurus aren't bad, but the priest looks really chalky with the white. The extra steps, while not strictly necessary, make it look better.

[Ishikar]

I'd have to agree with Jormengand a bit about the priest looking a bit chalky with it's pigment but I am impressed by the saurus warriors and their appearance. I think it's because they come in a bit more of a shaded grey whereas pure white is tough to pull off on a model. I decided to follow that scheme with a Tau army for 40K and it really makes me regret that choice. It looks pretty good overall but it's a PITA to work with and get looking really good. I've thought a time or two about changing it but part of me is too stubborn to go back over the other models I've finished and bring them in line with a new paint scheme which has generally left me waffling with a half-done army that I don't want to go forward or backward with which is a bit frustrating.

[Forrestfire]

Technically not a warhammer model, but since school is starting back up soon, I decided that since I needed to pack my armies and have no case, I should just make one.

So I did.

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2 rolls of duct tape, a box I got from the stock room guy at work, $10 worth of velcro, a sheet and a half of foamcore, and lots of wood glue. The trays came with the box, and fit a normal-sized base pretty much perfectly.

Sorry for the large pictures, forgot to resize before uploading

[Nepenthe]

Not Warhammer but this seemed like the place for miniature painting advice. This is my very first attempt at painting a mini. I started with Reaper Miniatures' Gris Knotslip and hammered down the pick to make an axe. I'm at the point where I want to wash, but I have to admit, I'm terrified I'm going to completely ruin it. Any tips for a complete newbie?

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There's some bare metal showing through on the knuckles, rope and bedroll. I made the mistake of handling this with my bare hands quite a bit while painting. Apparently the oil on my skin pulled the paint off and the primer along with it. Did I prime too lightly or is that always an issue? Is there an easy way to get acrylics to stick for a touch-up, or is the only fix to strip it and re-prime?

Thanks in advance, everyone!

[Ishikar]

If it's a metal mini then you're going to have a problem with chipping unless you varnish it. As for washes start subtle with a light wash (i.e. more water than pain) that way you'll be able to add extra layers or darken the wash if needed.

As for priming advice was told that washing a model before assembly/priming makes a real difference and have found that to very much be the case for metals (plastics are more forgiving in that regard). Washing with a mild soapy water helps get the mold release off and can make it easier to isolate the bits of flash mold lines that need to be cleaned.

As for my earlier varnishing comment if I really want a model to not chip then I will do a 2 fold varnishing process. I will start with a brush on gloss varnish because it will dry to a much better hard coat and then I will use a spray on matte varnish to dull the gloss varnish so the actual paint on the model stands out and not the shiny coating it has.

[Nepenthe]

Thanks for the tips. I'm probably going to make myself sound dumb, but I never considered that washes could be layered. I always assumed they were all-or-nothing, let-them-fall-where-they-may type things. That's a huge load off, so again, thanks.

Good to know that I didn't prime incorrectly. And while I figured the paint would wear eventually, I'm disappointed it didn't even last through the painting process. What's the best way to hold a mini for painting? Do people wear gloves? Is there anything I can do to touch-up at this point?

I'm thinking of darkening my base colors with purple (rather than black) for the washes, then following up with some really warm, dry brushed highlights to try to get the feel of candle light coming off that lantern. Is that a terrible idea for someone with basically zero experience in this medium? Would it be better to paint the shadows before washing?

Sorry for the deluge of questions, and thank you for your advice.

[Ishikar]

Thanks for the tips. I'm probably going to make myself sound dumb, but I never considered that washes could be layered. I always assumed they were all-or-nothing, let-them-fall-where-they-may type things. That's a huge load off, so again, thanks.

Good to know that I didn't prime incorrectly. And while I figured the paint would wear eventually, I'm disappointed it didn't even last through the painting process. What's the best way to hold a mini for painting? Do people wear gloves? Is there anything I can do to touch-up at this point?

I'm thinking of darkening my base colors with purple (rather than black) for the washes, then following up with some really warm, dry brushed highlights to try to get the feel of candle light coming off that lantern. Is that a terrible idea for someone with basically zero experience in this medium? Would it be better to paint the shadows before washing?

Sorry for the deluge of questions, and thank you for your advice.

I tend to hold a model by the base but sometimes use poster tack/double sided mounting tape to stick a model on an extra primer cap that I have to give you a good base to hold on to if I'm working on something I want really good detail out of. I've seen people pin a model into a cork for the same effect.

You can touch up and it works out pretty well if you haven't put the washes on yet so you'll be using the base colors.

Washing is typically meant to bring out the shadows and small niches of a model anyways and a purple could work well but I haven't had much experience outside of Black, Grey, Sepia, and then a Teal wash on some of my Ice golem type models for Malifaux. What really brings out shadows on a model is where your washes and highlights are located. If you wanted the lantern to be the only light source you'd shade the top of his arm and the parts of his right side blocked by his torso/beard/head. The rope would have highlights on the parts in line and then the rest of his back would be shaded a little darker. It's an effect you can try for and I'd encourage you to go for it.

I think what would help the most would be layered washes. Start by using a light black to cover the model and really get the folds and details of his clothes and to pick out his beard. Then you'll move on to another layer on the parts that would be at least partially shaded by his body from the lantern with one final layer of washes on the completely blocked areas to bring them down to the most shaded. After that you could drybrush some highlights on the lit areas. Start with your base color to bring back up the raised areas and then follow with a slightly lighter shade to pick out the top ridges.

Really the biggest thing for progressing is to just paint and find what works for you. Check youtube, painting sites, other friends/hobbyists and just borrow from them until you find out what works for you. If I'm painting battletech minis I find that base coating a flat color then drybrushing on exaggerated highlights before washing them down with the same base color then following with insignia colors works well. For 40K and Fantasy I'll base coat with a colored primer and then dip the model in sepia (skeletons/bone) or black (Marines in armor) and then work in details/shading/highlights as needed afterwards. For a detail model I start from black and then follow the traditional basecoat/color/highlight/shade/highlight process that works well for detail/project models.

[CreganTur]

If nothing else blue-tac your miniature to a wine cork that will sit flat so you have something other than the miniature to touch. If you are pinning to your bases, then just shove the pin into the cork.

[Nepenthe]

Yup. Ruined it.

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The washing actually went well for the most part. I washed the whole thing with much darker versions of the base coat first. Then I started carefully layering in a dark purple wash on the shadowy areas. So far, so good. I was actually really happy with it at this point. Then I started dry brushing on some orange highlights and everything fell apart. In some places it looked like he was covered in dirt, in others it didn't stand out enough. So I tried to blend it in where it was too bright and darken surrounding areas where I needed more contrast. Everything started looking muddy and indistinct. Then I thought, 'Maybe a black wash over the whole thing will bring the details back out.' Yeah... Bad idea. Now he looks like, well, crap. Literally. I'm left with a little, dwarf shaped turd. I'm going to have to paint over so much of it, I'm wondering if it'd be better to strip it and start from scratch.