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    Default [Legend] Full Beta

    It seems odd, to offer so little fanfare, but we're now in full beta, and a soft content freeze. This is quite close to the final game, though not the final document. In the next few months, we'll be doing heavy white-box testing, and attempting to wrangle a really beautiful game out of this thing, as well as adding art and getting the document typeset. I believe sincerely that this marks the beginning of something awesome.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-05-04 at 05:03 PM.

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    I think Imma finally look this over. Didn't doubt your design skills but full beta sounds better to me than whatever it was you had before. I know I'm arbitrarily pleased, but hey at least I'm trying it.

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Geigan View Post
    I think Imma finally look this over. Didn't doubt your design skills but full beta sounds better to me than whatever it was you had before. I know I'm arbitrarily pleased, but hey at least I'm trying it.
    And I'm grateful. Cyborg gift horses, mouths, all that.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    I think the Guardian property for weapons needs to be updated, the description states it allows you to wield a shield for +2 AC plus magical bonuses, etc on the shield. However, the shields section lists +1 AC, unless it's a magical shield...or am i reading something wrong?

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Khyber View Post
    I think the Guardian property for weapons needs to be updated, the description states it allows you to wield a shield for +2 AC plus magical bonuses, etc on the shield. However, the shields section lists +1 AC, unless it's a magical shield...or am i reading something wrong?
    Not sure, let me point it out to Chris.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Okay, after a very...heated...debate with some of my players, I think the way items and armors are listed needs to be looked at. Going with the philosophy that was applied to weapons, where they were very neatly divided into categories (Hold out, main, special) and given set rules on how each works (a nice list of properties to add, etc). Items and armors should be laid out in a similar fashion. As is, the list for items is somewhat short, and a nice table that listed various abilities that could be added to an item for each tier (lesser, greater, relic, artifact) would make creating items and even inventing new abilities much easier to agree upon. Maybe even give parallels to spell levels? The current items, being somewhat specific in nature, are hard to extrapolate the power (Lesser are easy, since there's the +2 stat items that give a good base line, however the other item tiers aren't as easy to define). Heck, a table of abilities could even allow for a "Lesser item choose one, greater choose two..relic four, etc type deal). Ultimately, I loved the way weapons separated the crunch from the fluff, and i feel items should have the same treatment.

    On to armors, as is my group is thoroughly confused, with what "additional" effects can go on an enhanced armor...the same as any "greater magic item?" or since it's getting the +2ac w/o penalties, is it only effects around the "lesser magic item" level? I think it's the latter (most my gruop the former...espically since the light armor section explicitly points to the latter, making it seem it should be the former since no explicit mention is made for it.) Great logic there!

    I propose the entire armor section should also be simplified the same way weapons were (see how i love the way you did weapons?). Make just two categories of armor. Light armor gives +1 AC, Heavy armor gives +2 AC, -1Move and -1Reflex. Then list out magical effects that can be added. Lesser armors get 1 effect, greater 2, etc. The effects can be listed as +1AC, Removal of penelties for heavy armor etc. Maybe even list some effects that count as two (so a +2 AC would count as two or three, making it so only relics/artifacts could get to really high ACs). Or simply state some effects don't stack/ require a certain Magic Item level.

    Hope this post is constructive.

    Khyber

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Khyber View Post
    Hope this post is constructive.

    Khyber
    Hugely constructive! Time to chew on this idea a lot.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-05-04 at 08:52 PM.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    after searching to see exactly what effects a paladin is immune to, i didn't see any compulsion effects, and it seemed like the only fear effects were also mind affecting.

    terrifying presence, menacing presence, charm, confusion, terror, and cause fear were all the mind affecting.

    the only fear effects i found were terrifying presence, menacing presence and cause fear.

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Oh snaps, something awesome to look over in my (admittedly limited) free time! *nicks off to start reading through*

    EDIT: Also, mesa derp. Any way to get this in PDF form? I don't have a lot of internet access in my classes (when I have a lot of my free time, since my profs ramble about pointless stuff a lot of the time).
    Last edited by arguskos; 2011-05-04 at 11:23 PM.

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Nohwl View Post
    after searching to see exactly what effects a paladin is immune to, i didn't see any compulsion effects, and it seemed like the only fear effects were also mind affecting.

    terrifying presence, menacing presence, charm, confusion, terror, and cause fear were all the mind affecting.

    the only fear effects i found were terrifying presence, menacing presence and cause fear.
    Judgment is pending a rewrite, sadly.

    @Arg: that is actually a PDF, just save it to disk via the options.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-05-04 at 11:30 PM.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Judgment is pending a rewrite, sadly.

    @Arg: that is actually a PDF, just save it to disk via the options.
    Abused the email trick, got it. I'll read through it ASAP, hopefully sooner than later.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Keep me up to date! :)
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    I apologize if you have already done this, but could you lay out the classes with a one-line description of them? I'm wading through the document, but I'd like to have a more holistic feel for what's going on.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Just a brief look.. I don't know how strictly you're going to look at this, but in the spirit of "D&D 3.5 has some seriously stupid RAW abuses", on page 14, you note that racial bonuses are lost when you change race. You say nothing of racial penalties. So, for example, a dwarf being reincarnated to an Elf would retain their charisma penalty, according to that text. I'm not sure if your Reincarnate spell calls out a specific fix, and I know it's just a semantic thing, but it might matter to some people.

    ::Edit:: Monk's Touch of Death - the way you have it set up, if the opponent makes the save, they can't die from that attack, even if they only had 1 HP to start with and the normal damage would have killed them. It might be worth mentioning in the text that either it can be added after resolving attack/damage, OR that if they succeed on that fort save, the target can't be brought below 1 hit point as a result of the extra damage.
    Last edited by Quietus; 2011-05-06 at 11:40 AM.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    Just a brief look.. I don't know how strictly you're going to look at this, but in the spirit of "D&D 3.5 has some seriously stupid RAW abuses", on page 14, you note that racial bonuses are lost when you change race. You say nothing of racial penalties. So, for example, a dwarf being reincarnated to an Elf would retain their charisma penalty, according to that text. I'm not sure if your Reincarnate spell calls out a specific fix, and I know it's just a semantic thing, but it might matter to some people.

    ::Edit:: Monk's Touch of Death - the way you have it set up, if the opponent makes the save, they can't die from that attack, even if they only had 1 HP to start with and the normal damage would have killed them. It might be worth mentioning in the text that either it can be added after resolving attack/damage, OR that if they succeed on that fort save, the target can't be brought below 1 hit point as a result of the extra damage.
    Our view on raw abuse is that it is worth fixing. Fixing it saves some beleaguered GM five or ten or thirty minutes. We'll fix the bit about penalties and clarify monk's dooooom fist.

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    I apologize if you have already done this, but could you lay out the classes with a one-line description of them? I'm wading through the document, but I'd like to have a more holistic feel for what's going on.
    Subject42: I'll even give you twooooo sentences, if you like! Heck, I can even talk about some common role slices, and how multiclassing can fill them.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-05-06 at 12:35 PM.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    i made it up to paladin. heres a list of questions/feedback so far.

    intro to the beginning of barbarian
    --nat 20 isn't an automatic hit--is stacking ac to ignore all attacks viable?
    --where are size modifiers listed?--page 14
    --you list tacticians and shamans under abilities and spellcasters--if you were planning on adding other spellcasters, they would not be listed
    --When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence.?? page 15-do you use int to determine how many skill points you have?
    --if armor and sheild bonuses cap at my str mod normally, does that change over to my dex mod if i take weapon finesse?
    --i don't understand how point buy works, but i always used a calculator for it in 3.5, so i never understood it there either.
    --is the average from random ability generation stat and point buy the same?
    --page 17 you have the phrase at this time under class selection
    --can items that give feats be used to meet prereqs?
    --order of gaining things when leveling up doesn't matter, that's good
    --page 20, level 17, the x is bigger than the other ones
    --page 21 when does the misc bonus get added? at levels 1, 9, and 17?
    --page 21 and 22, you say gnomes are engineers but they get a bonus to diplomacy.
    --page 22 does the human +1 bonus to a save, ac, or attack roll scale?
    --page 23 first sentence was referring to sage, wasn't it? didn't you change sage to progress by tracks?
    --page 23 ranger and sage have numbers instead of a specific track too, also you represent empty spaces in tracks by either a - or nothing
    --page 24 is there a default action for an extrodinary ability?

    general
    --class bab is listed as good, but the table calls it fast
    --you have no table showing the two different save progressions (or if you did, i missed it), it's only in the class tables
    --where are size categories listed? i saw them mentioned under halfling and under barbarians path of rage, but don't know where to look to see all fo them.

    barbarian questions
    --is there a minimum number of rounds i can rage for? if not, what happens if i had a con modifier of -4? does that mean i use a swift action to activate rage and have it last for -1 rounds?
    --if you are immune to fatigue, is there any limit to the number of times you can rage in one combat or in a day?
    --do i get to choose if i use powerful rage, or does it happen every time i use rage?
    --if there is no limit to the number of times i can rage in an encounter or per day, then heart of fury only really doesn't do much.
    --how long does the shaken effect from terrifying presence last?

    monk questions
    --is there anything that prevents a monk from choosing a ranged weapon with weapon master?
    --how does after image work if i have multiple swift actions in a round? if i hit an opponent 3 times and have 2 swift actions, can i get 2 images?
    --does five deadly venoms stack with itself?
    --how does white lotus palm work with extra swift actions?
    --in thousand sudden cuts, you mention curse of stolen time. what is it?
    --what maneuverability does the flight speed from through the clouds have?
    --what are the benefits of becoming ethereal from empty body?
    --with path between worlds, is there a limit to the number of people that can planeshift with you?
    --phoenix reborn, you mention true resurrection, but i couldn't find it anywhere
    --cloak of the sun and moon, you mention freedom of movement, but i couldn't find that anywhere
    --jade heart, do you have any level draining effects or ability draining effects?

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Nohwl View Post
    --When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence.?? page 15-do you use int to determine how many skill points you have?
    Skill points are no longer associated with Intelligence. However, Intelligence modifier boosts about half the skills anyway.

    --if armor and sheild bonuses cap at my str mod normally, does that change over to my dex mod if i take weapon finesse?
    No, and this is deliberate to balance Dex-based and Strength-based characters.

    --is there anything that prevents a monk from choosing a ranged weapon with weapon master?
    Nope! In fact the "Way of the Gun" feat is explicit support for ranged monk builds.


    --in thousand sudden cuts, you mention curse of stolen time. what is it?
    It's the ability that was renamed to White Lotus Palm

    --what maneuverability does the flight speed from through the clouds have?
    It's supposed to be good or perfect.


    --jade heart, do you have any level draining effects or ability draining effects?
    Yes. For example the Necromancer' Enervation ability inflicts negative levels.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    Should the "You will fail" feat have a prerequisite of itself? I think you meant "You will falter" to be the prerequisite.
    This was caught and corrected shortly after the most recent release.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2011-05-06 at 01:09 PM.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Should the "You will fail" feat have a prerequisite of itself? I think you meant "You will falter" to be the prerequisite.
    Attempting to say controversial things that everyone will agree with.

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    Should the "You will fail" feat have a prerequisite of itself? I think you meant "You will falter" to be the prerequisite.
    Fixed, we'll be dropping a new version with just clarifications and small wording fixes ~tuesday.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    I'm going and creating a level 1 Human Monk because I've always had a weakness for Monks. Here is my feedback so far. It's roughly organized in the order I encountered the part I had a question/comment.

    You might consider renaming "Medium BAB". Yes it refers to the 3.5 version called Medium, but it by definition means "in the middle" and with only 2 options neither of them are in the middle. You could call them "Expert" and "Adept" or some other set of adjectives that convey the best and still pretty good. It would help seperate Legend from 3.5/PF.

    The Monk ability Thousand Sudden Cuts references Curse of Stolen Time, but that is the only occurrence of that phrase in the document. I'm guessing some other Monk ability got renamed. Regarding Monk abilities in general, I really like the "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" style of Monk and recognize quite a few of these abilities from the 3.5 Monk fix you guys published. One thing I didn't notice is whether or not Monks are able to wear armor. Since I didn't see any mention of their abilities not functioning I would assume so, but you might want to make it clear.

    How does the Monk ability Empty Body from the Disciple of the Crane track work with multiclassing? If for example I was a Barbarian that traded one of my tracks for this track at creation, would I have a "Monk level" equal to my character level? Would I have a "Monk level" of 0?

    Regarding the Rogue ability Improvisation from the Fortune's Friend track, how often can this ability be used? If it's every round that's pretty crazy but if not it needs to be noted.

    Looking through feats, I was confused by the trees. I think in every case, the first feat in the tree was not the first one alphabetically. I think you should include something like the short list of feats found in 3.5 books that lists later feats in the tree underneath the first prereq. It would be easier to see which 8 feats or whatever require Livers Need Not Apply. (As an aside, I like that it's fun and flavorful, but do we really need that many feats solely about drinking?) One other comment on feats is that I thought they were slightly lacking if I want to be a Badass Normal instead of a supernatural teleporting guy that can stab people with his shadow. It very well may be that Legends isn't designed to incorporate a Badass Normal, but it just kinda stood out how many feats seemed supernatural in nature even if they don't have a (Su) tag.

    I like the way combat maneuvers are broken down and that you don't need a feat to hit things harder than usual at the expense of accuracy.

    I found a typo in section 6.7.1 Injury. It says, "See 6.7.1, the Condition Summary, for these stressors." Also, in section 6.9.1 Weapon Overview, it says, "(found in 6.8.2, Weapon Properties)" when that section is 6.9.2. I'm guessing that you added a new 6.6 and forgot to increment some of the numbers within the sections.

    I have a question regarding Shields. It says that can only be used with a [Guardian] weapon. Could a Monk that's wielding no weapon at all use a shield? I saw nothing about what kind of weapon an Unarmed Strike is, either in the Monk class or in the section about weapons.

    In section 10.2.2 Sentient Construct, it mentions Walk of the Monkey as a bonus feat. I searched the document and didn't find this feat.
    Last edited by Master_Rahl22; 2011-05-06 at 04:49 PM.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Quick note: The spell "Death Ward" reads "The creature touched gains immunity to effects with the [Death] descriptor, the [binding] condition, negative levels, and ability penalties and damage caused by spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities.

    Now, i know it means ability damage caused by spells, ect... but on the first reading it did trick me and most my group into thinking it prevented all damage from spells, etc. (which of course would be hilariously overpowered).

    Is both ability damage and ability penalties still in the game? I remember at one point talk of removing one of them (since they are both practically the same anyways).

    Edit: Just noticed, Arcane Blade for tacticians is listed in the 3rd circle list, but in it's description lists Tactician 2.

    Racial Tracks list "Creatures with a racial track retain the ability to spend a feat to multiclass" however, spending a feat for multiclass is removed right?
    Last edited by Khyber; 2011-05-06 at 08:03 PM.

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    I would sell my soul to be able to create a system as slick as this.


    Ignoring the ominous music that's suddenly playing from behind me for a moment, a few questions and notations.

    - For Necromancer, does CHA count as a 'mental ability' and if so, was it too much work to simply type; Pick INT, WIS, or CHA?
    - For the Runesong's Summoner's 'To Bend Steel' feature, you may wish to note that the automatons still have their prior functions, and the name change is merely aesthetic. Though it might sound like a no-brainer, a first glance makes one wonder if Engine automatons still increase Assemblage range.
    - Don't forget to change how the Item classifications read when it comes to examples of lesser/greater/relic/etc items read.
    Iron Sliver
    Description: This small piece of metal vibrates steadily.
    Crunch: The first attack made against you each turn has a 50% miss chance.
    Should of course be:
    Iron Sliver
    This small piece of metal vibrates steadily.
    Crunch: The first attack made against you each turn has a 50% miss chance.
    -The DC 35 check for History (Int) replicating a Legend Lore spell is excellent beyond words. Never change or take that out.
    - Are you concerned about the Sage's Force of Will track being potentially overpowered? Level 11 grants hp to all nearby allies each round as a swift action which is equal to HALF the amount granted by Mass Heal, a 7th level spell. This swift action each round doesn't quite negate the average damage caused by a 1d6 dmg/level move, but it sure comes freakishly close. And when you remember that this melee action still allows for barbarian cleaves and Iron Magi cadences and all sorts of other things, the amount of carnage it could help an experimentally-optimized team rack up could be enormous.

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Looking good Doc, can't sadly give it a thorough read currently.

    A quick glance shows that Black Tidings is still Super Good in groups of Sages (or Multiclasses with Sage). No satisfactory solution for that yet, huh?
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Gralamin View Post
    Looking good Doc, can't sadly give it a thorough read currently.

    A quick glance shows that Black Tidings is still Super Good in groups of Sages (or Multiclasses with Sage). No satisfactory solution for that yet, huh?
    I think damage and splash area were lowered. Any party facing massed sages should be able to avoid getting splashed to death by positioning themselves right, except in extremely unfavorable terrain.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Rahl22 View Post
    I'm going and creating a level 1 Human Monk because I've always had a weakness for Monks. Here is my feedback so far. It's roughly organized in the order I encountered the part I had a question/comment.

    You might consider renaming "Medium BAB". Yes it refers to the 3.5 version called Medium, but it by definition means "in the middle" and with only 2 options neither of them are in the middle. You could call them "Expert" and "Adept" or some other set of adjectives that convey the best and still pretty good. It would help seperate Legend from 3.5/PF.
    Funny story. There are "classes" that have poor BAB. But those class chassis aren't available yet, because they're our noncombatant classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Rahl22 View Post
    The Monk ability Thousand Sudden Cuts references Curse of Stolen Time, but that is the only occurrence of that phrase in the document. I'm guessing some other Monk ability got renamed. Regarding Monk abilities in general, I really like the "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" style of Monk and recognize quite a few of these abilities from the 3.5 Monk fix you guys published. One thing I didn't notice is whether or not Monks are able to wear armor. Since I didn't see any mention of their abilities not functioning I would assume so, but you might want to make it clear.
    Right now, Monks can wear armor. I do not envision this being changed, so we'll clarify it soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Rahl22 View Post
    How does the Monk ability Empty Body from the Disciple of the Crane track work with multiclassing? If for example I was a Barbarian that traded one of my tracks for this track at creation, would I have a "Monk level" equal to my character level? Would I have a "Monk level" of 0?
    Any reference to class level in a track is an artifact from an older version, and will be fixed in the really big update that's coming in the next couple weeks. We've been releasing quick balance updates to take care of bugs and make new Sage available while I work on turning game rules into a real book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Rahl22 View Post
    Regarding the Rogue ability Improvisation from the Fortune's Friend track, how often can this ability be used? If it's every round that's pretty crazy but if not it needs to be noted.
    It's every round. Remember that most of our classes use a *lot* of swift actions to power feats, tricks, and mobility; this ability lets you be a little bit better at everything in exchange for limiting your resources to power specific abilities (and defenses, since most defenses are powered by immediate actions).

    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Rahl22 View Post
    Looking through feats, I was confused by the trees. I think in every case, the first feat in the tree was not the first one alphabetically. I think you should include something like the short list of feats found in 3.5 books that lists later feats in the tree underneath the first prereq. It would be easier to see which 8 feats or whatever require Livers Need Not Apply. (As an aside, I like that it's fun and flavorful, but do we really need that many feats solely about drinking?)
    The list suggestion is good. The reason we need so many feats about drinking is because Jake really wanted to dig up every single thing that legendary alcoholics did and turn it into a feat.

    We do plan to have more feats, but they're in progress right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Rahl22 View Post
    One other comment on feats is that I thought they were slightly lacking if I want to be a Badass Normal instead of a supernatural teleporting guy that can stab people with his shadow. It very well may be that Legends isn't designed to incorporate a Badass Normal, but it just kinda stood out how many feats seemed supernatural in nature even if they don't have a (Su) tag.
    It's extremely easy to be a Badass Normal up to around 10th level. Past that point, we do have some options; Rangers, Barbarians, and Rogues, for example, are quite badass and can be played to be thoroughly mundane in their origins and skills. But mundane abilities have to be superhuman when you get to higher levels, because that's what creatures of that level do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Rahl22 View Post
    I found a typo in section 6.7.1 Injury. It says, "See 6.7.1, the Condition Summary, for these stressors." Also, in section 6.9.1 Weapon Overview, it says, "(found in 6.8.2, Weapon Properties)" when that section is 6.9.2. I'm guessing that you added a new 6.6 and forgot to increment some of the numbers within the sections.
    This is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Rahl22 View Post
    I have a question regarding Shields. It says that can only be used with a [Guardian] weapon. Could a Monk that's wielding no weapon at all use a shield? I saw nothing about what kind of weapon an Unarmed Strike is, either in the Monk class or in the section about weapons.
    I'd have to discuss this with people. I can see fairly good fluff arguments going either way, and I'm not sure what the numbers say yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Rahl22 View Post
    In section 10.2.2 Sentient Construct, it mentions Walk of the Monkey as a bonus feat. I searched the document and didn't find this feat.
    Called Monkey Business now. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khyber View Post
    Quick note: The spell "Death Ward" reads "The creature touched gains immunity to effects with the [Death] descriptor, the [binding] condition, negative levels, and ability penalties and damage caused by spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities.

    Now, i know it means ability damage caused by spells, ect... but on the first reading it did trick me and most my group into thinking it prevented all damage from spells, etc. (which of course would be hilariously overpowered).
    Oops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khyber View Post
    Is both ability damage and ability penalties still in the game? I remember at one point talk of removing one of them (since they are both practically the same anyways).
    We removed ability drain, because it didn't do anything useful. Ability damage and penalties function differently and are independently worthwhile, so they're staying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khyber View Post
    Racial Tracks list "Creatures with a racial track retain the ability to spend a feat to multiclass" however, spending a feat for multiclass is removed right?
    Yep. It will be fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dust View Post
    I would sell my soul to be able to create a system as slick as this.
    Careful what you ask for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dust View Post
    - For Necromancer, does CHA count as a 'mental ability' and if so, was it too much work to simply type; Pick INT, WIS, or CHA?
    We probably could do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dust View Post
    - For the Runesong's Summoner's 'To Bend Steel' feature, you may wish to note that the automatons still have their prior functions, and the name change is merely aesthetic. Though it might sound like a no-brainer, a first glance makes one wonder if Engine automatons still increase Assemblage range.
    - Don't forget to change how the Item classifications read when it comes to examples of lesser/greater/relic/etc items read.
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dust View Post
    -The DC 35 check for History (Int) replicating a Legend Lore spell is excellent beyond words. Never change or take that out.
    That's in my top 3 favorite skill check results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dust View Post
    - Are you concerned about the Sage's Force of Will track being potentially overpowered? Level 11 grants hp to all nearby allies each round as a swift action which is equal to HALF the amount granted by Mass Heal, a 7th level spell. This swift action each round doesn't quite negate the average damage caused by a 1d6 dmg/level move, but it sure comes freakishly close. And when you remember that this melee action still allows for barbarian cleaves and Iron Magi cadences and all sorts of other things, the amount of carnage it could help an experimentally-optimized team rack up could be enormous.
    It's really good. I don't know yet if it's too good. Remember that a level 11 shaman heals (Wis mod) to everyone within Close range every round before casting spells or incantations, and if that shaman went for Bastion via Sage's Path, the shaman is also healing all allies around for a cure spell, buffing them, etc. Healers in Legend are intentionally designed to be good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gralamin View Post
    Looking good Doc, can't sadly give it a thorough read currently.

    A quick glance shows that Black Tidings is still Super Good in groups of Sages (or Multiclasses with Sage). No satisfactory solution for that yet, huh?
    Basically what Bucky said. The nerfs to AoE size, coupled with the changes to damage calculations, mean that a party or group of bad guys who get caught in multiple simultaneous black tidings are practicing a level of tactical stupidity so extensive that they pretty much deserve to lose. We're talking "wizard stands in front of the party while the fighters hang back in the big dragon fight", for a value of wizard that doesn't involve being shapechanged into a bigger dragon.
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    finally made it through all of the classes.

    paladin
    --how long does the font emanating from the paladin last?
    --can the fonts be moved at all during combat?
    --what is the range on the teleportation effect of star spark?
    --rebirth revives an ally for the duration of the encounter, so does that mean they die again when it's over?
    --in virtue, some of the abilities are ex, but don't look like they could be used in a null magic zone

    ranger
    --do the squares covered by tanglefoot paste have to be touching?
    --if you are blown away, are you prone after you are knocked back?
    --the ability a crashing of heaven, does the phrase regardless of the result of the attack mean that it doesn't matter if the attack hits or misses? also how long are they battered for?
    --with the thus always unto ability, is the opponent also flat footed if they fail the save?
    --i don't really see a way to have 4 sparkstorms up at a time. each one lasts for 1 round total and it takes 2 attacks to use it once. i guess with a monk multiclass it might come up.
    --if you save against scream of the black sky, the dazzled effect is not halved, but the blinded effect is. more of a note for myself because i wouldn't have seen that from just a quick look at it.
    --is pinned exactly the same as binding?
    --you have a sage ability named binding, i could see that be easily confused with the [binding] effect
    --with into the trees, what happens if the thing i'm hiding in takes damage or gets destroyed? what happens if the thing moves during the time i'm hidden in it?

    rogue
    --rogue doesn't have action types listed next to the abilities. (no (ex) or (su))
    --if i took a nonstandard race (sentient construct or undead or demon or something), could i trade away esoterica radica for the racial track?
    --slowed doesn't look like it's defined anywhere
    --are once more attacks always made with your highest base attack bonus?
    --do the once more attacks get used at the end of all movement, or at the end of each individual form of movement? for example, if i move with a move action and i move with when to run, do i get an attack after the move action and then another attack after when to run, or do i get 2 attacks after when to run?
    --so the +2 part of with feeling is always there, but it can be increased by 1 for every once more attack you make?
    --smells like victory is currently a swift or move action to use, is this so you can use more than one in a turn when you get more attacks? i'm not sure why you would use when to fold if you can make it as a swift action.
    --if high explosive can be planted, does it need to explode immediately? can you put multiple explosives down and trap a room before a fight?
    --how close is close proximity for the sapper rods?
    --if i have a cluster bomb consisting of 3 sapper rods and i'm carrying another sapper rod, would they explode?
    --how long does it take to make da big 'un?
    --do evasion and improved evasion apply to just that quick?
    --how does changing the odds interact with gamblers dao?
    --i wonder if i could make a crit fisher with the rogue

    sage
    --so a sage can lightsabers? that's awesome.
    --can a blown away opponent end up in your square? if they stop there, do you get an attack of opportunity?
    --when i put a spell like ability into the weapon, i have a 20% chance to miss attacks i make until i get rid of it?
    --is the cube 15 feet in diameter or radius? also, if you get to a high enough level, won't you hit yourself with the blast? (range is 25 feet +5 feet for every 4 levels, explosion is 15 feet +5 feet every 2 levels)
    --does [other ally] mean someone who isn't you?
    --hp reduction seems like it's only used in the sage class
    --it doesn't seem like incorporeal is defined anywhere

    shaman
    --so, you can target whoever you want with the incantation ability and either heal or try to harm them?
    --does it take a swift action to cast a spell and another swift action to imbue the spell?
    --does twin incantation take swift actions to cast the spells?
    --does stolen moment happen before or after an ally takes damage? if you're the one taking damage and it's enough to kill you, would you be able to act before dying?
    --you had levels listed for a lot of the tracks, and they might be wrong if you take it with shaman's path
    --can i pick shaman's path with shaman's path? it's pretty pointless, i'm just wondering if you can.

    tactician
    --what does countermeasures do?
    --does dread secret take a move action and a swift action to use?


    --is the number of spells you can learn listed in the magic section? i didn't see it in either shaman or tactician.
    --it seemed like a couple of the classes are a lot more passive in terms of abilities when compared to other classes.

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    Claudius Maximus's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    Read the whole thing. I like it.

    Nitpickery:
    Spoiler
    Show
    13: "Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items." - Make sure this is true, or drop it. Otherwise you get the 3.5 situation in which it is a lie.

    14: Item Bonuses/Penalties: If you are theoretically able to apply two item penalties to a roll does the special mechanic here allow you to apply the smaller one, in contradiction to the normal rules?

    14: Strength-to-speed might merit a mention here, though it is admittedly indirect.

    15: Take out the retroactive skill points thing for intelligence. Or could you replace it with languages?

    25+: You have "skill points per level" for classes, but there is currently no option to spread them around or anything. Might it be better to just say "5 trained skills" or something?

    29: Between the Raindrops strikes me as a pretty extreme bonus to AC. A 20th level monk will just walk around with 40 AC and will probably have a good 50 or so in total. I'm having trouble seeing how anyone other than a barbarian or a smite paladin can even hit that. Something like an unoptimized swashbucler rogue could wail away for days and not inflict a scratch.

    32: Typo in The Dark.

    32: Does The Light affect your own attempt to hide at all, like in darkness?

    32: Does The Strong only apply to those in your Bastion? Or some other range? Or all your allies everywhere?

    34: Heroica: What kind of range are we talking? It should be defined even if it's infinite. While we're at it, what happens if you're on different planes?

    34: How is The Just and the Unjust's simultaneous action effect handled? Can you take an action, then your partner, then you again, etc? This seems weird in a turn-based game. You should be specific on the level of granularity you want to go for here.

    34: The Quick and the Dead: Undefeatable invisibility and invincibility? I'm not sure I like such absolutes. This seems like it could get insane with two mutual paladin partners, as you attack, then move, and they can't affect or find you except by groping around.

    37: For Professional Soldier, are the traps easily visible?

    39: Return Fire: Does this replace the normal damage/effects of your attacks?

    39: Missile Barrage's effect origin should be a little more clear, unless you want us to launch everyone on the surface of an entire plate into the sky.

    40: Beloved of the Dirae: if the effect lasts for one round, how can it deal damage at the beginning of the Ranger's turn? I guess I'll make the general complaint that you don't strictly define durations, so I'm assuming 3.5's rule here.

    41: Into the Trees: what happens if they blow up the tree? Also, where do you come out when you exit? the same spot? Otherwise you can teleport across whole landscapes.

    41: How does Ghost interact with extraordinary senses?

    43: Does Slayer's Sense have a duration or window of opportunity?

    44: Will Once More! trigger from a 5-step?

    45: Can you double (or triple) up on explosives in the Cluster Bomb? 3d6 damage per level sounds pretty extreme. Do the components of the cluster bomb count for carrying limits (e.g. a Sapper Rod cluster bomb and a normal Sapper Rod canceling items)?

    46: You have a pretty candid designer remark on Don't Stop Me Now. Just wanted to note it in case you want that out for the final doc.

    47: How exactly does Mantis Stance interact with Once More!? I would assume it allows a Once More! attack at the end of movement but it is slightly unclear.

    47: It strikes me as weird that Better Lucky and Good can remove petrification. Not necessarily unbalanced, just... weird.

    48: How long can Mystic Focus hold a charge? Indefinitely?

    49: Devastating Barrage: an 8th level or higher Sage can literally not do this without catching herself in it.

    51: There are two abilities called Healing Burst in the Sage class. Might want to rename one to differentiate. Also, they might just be plain redundant.

    51: Lung-Breaker: LoE-breaking fog? Weeeeird.

    51: I don't see Spellbreaker, Reweave, or Wall of Thorns. There is no mechanism given for learning Healing Burst or Stolen Moments.

    52: So could a Shaman with Just Blade throw an attack, an Incantation, and a spell off in one standard action? That's a hell of a hit.

    53: The Shaman ability Stolen Moment has an awfully similar name to the Arcane Secret Stolen Moments.

    53: Since Sage has been trackified, can it be added to the list of choices for Shaman's Path?

    53 & 55: How many spells do you know at level 1? One?

    61: How long would it take Medicinie to remove an encounter duration status effect?

    64: Do we want Floating Feat to be able to swap into/out of things like Guild Initiation or Multiclassing feats?

    66: Do Rune Magic spells only affect one person, even if they were originally AoEs?

    67: The Sky Empties: Does the charge effect apply to all teleportation, or only that of the feat?

    67: The Sun Grows Dim: what is a "small mundane object?"

    68: A Light Against Shadow: what action is it to intensify the light? If it's free then slicing 6 hp/level from your enemies is pretty nasty.

    71: Perfect Defense: does it only negate the bonuses for power attack/deadly aim, or does it block the whole attack?

    72: What happens when Spectacular Beats "destroys" a dead creature? We don't want Starmantle stupidity.

    74: Cloaked Spellcasting: what kind of DC are we talking when there are multiple opponents? I guess this is a general question for all abilities that calculate DCs like that.

    75: Positive Energy Specialist is a bit of a misnomer if Shaman Incantations are not positive or negative effects.

    77: I don't really recall disguise described as a Larceny function. Maybe make that more clear in the skill.

    78: Surprise Round is undefined.

    79: Immediate Actions. Okay. I think you would do well to clear up how interrupts work, like whether you can use an immediate after someone launches an arrow but before it reaches you, etc. Check out Abrupt Jaunt arguments to see the sort of thing I'm talking about. Some things seem to be unclear now, like if your action takes place before the trigger, etc.

    79: Does drawing a weapon as part of a move halve your speed? You just outlined such an effect with the phrase right before this section, so if not, you should change wording somewhere.

    81: Durations: do things expire right before their duration, like in 3.X? If so make that more clear.

    81: Difficult Terrain: might want to provide more examples here. Particularly, what about inclines and stairs?

    81: Perfect maneuverability seems to be missing. What is the upward angle a creature with average maneuverability can move at?

    82: Incomplete sentence in the explanation for Combat Maneuvers.

    82: Charging: perhaps clarify "obstruction?" Difficult terrain? Can you jump over things in your way?

    82 & 83: How come Take Cover can only grant half the bonus Defensive Fighting can? Also, at higher levels I fear these might be able to make you pretty much unhittable, especially Defensive Fighting. (Attack of ~10+BAB+Stat vs. AC 30+BAB+Stat.)

    83: Ghostwise Sight vs. Stealth: what does "reduce" mean? Can they just plain hide from you if they win?

    84: Is Blindsight defeated by high level darkness like Darkvision is?

    84: Wait, so death is at -CON? You have it as -10 in several other places in the doc.

    84: Is a creature with 0 dexterity paralyzed, or [paralyzed]? If the latter, what happens if they're immune? Or have something like Better Lucky and Good? Make sure we don't get stupidity like str 0 creatures moving around with Freedom of Movement in 3.5.

    84: You have no rules for nonabilities. Do they not exist?

    84: No explicit nonlethal damage rules.

    85: Might want to reword [confused] to talk about noncaster originators and maybe removing or clarifying the familiar thing since as far as I can tell there aren't any in Legend.

    85: You might want to offer some examples of how to obtain [covered]. Attacking from the other side of a small hill? Around a corner? Behind an upturned table? Maybe some guidelines for how much of them needs to be blocked to get the effect.

    85: If there are no SoD effects you might want to remove references to them from [dead]. Also there is no mention of Medicine and its ability to resuscitate.

    86: [Deafened] hurts Perception more than [Blinded]?

    86: Typo in the first line of [Disabled].

    86: [Fatigued]'s blocking of Run seems superfluous if there's no Run action.

    86 & 87: You don't seem to have general fear-stacking rules.

    87: Clarify whether [Nauseated] permits swift, immediate, and free actions. It does in 3.5, for reference's sake.

    87: No guns from [prone]? It seems common enough in the real world.

    87: Can a [stable] creature practice Medicine on itself to start healing?

    88: Maybe add some more rules to the descriptors? Like Mindless creatures being immune to Mind-Affecting (if you have mindless creatures).

    89: Two-weapon fighting: is there any restriction on damage or anything? The component weapons clearly aren't two-handers and thus shouldn't be able to deal 2d6 alone.

    90: What's the point of a Special weapon with the Mounted property if you can get Guardian and then use it fine on a horse anyway? There doesn't seem to be any benefit to 2-handing a weapon you can wield in one hand, since I don't see Str x1.5 anywhere.

    90: Why does the Halberd, a Special weapon, deal 1d6?

    90: Why do several Special weapons have two abilities?

    91: Do Enhanced or Relic Armors give penalties?

    91: Here you say there are +1 AC shields, but Guardian weapon (90) assumes a +2 bonus.

    99 & 100: Social Encounters: When do people stop making checks, and when do people start throwing up bids? It seems like you can just initiate a social encounter, get a token, and bid immediately, and your target won't have any options.

    102 & 103: A lot of important information on magic seems to be missing. What's up with concentration, dismissible spells, emanations vs. bursts, etc.?

    103: Dangerous Conditions: I don't remember anything about this in chapter 6. Is [deafened] or something supposed to do this?

    107: Call Lightning: +1d6/level per attack strikes me as a lot.

    108: Control Winds needs to have defined effects on creatures. Also, the scaling is pointless since you get it at 18th.

    110: Darkness contradicts Darkvision. Low-Light Vision apparently doesn't exist.

    111: Same story here about Darkvision.

    111: Death Ward protecting against [binding] seems weird.

    113: Endure Elements seems kind of pathetic. Why nerf it from 3.5?

    113: Make Feeblemind's duration clear, and maybe list some effects that can defeat it (or can it be undone with Cure Light Wounds?).

    116 & 117: The Harm effects are nor [harming] effects. If this is intentional it is pretty strange.

    117: Mass Heal is missing "per level."

    117: Hold Monster sounds an awful lot like a save-or-die.

    118: Invisibility/Silence is pretty wonky as written. Also, [silent] wasn't on the condition list. Silencing enemies strikes me as unintended - what does it do for spellcasting?

    119: Miracle: suicide + Miracle for refreshed spell slots and stuff seems like a possibility. I'm not sure I like it.

    120: Prismatic Spray: what if there are more than 7 potential targets? Also, can it blind allies?

    120: Project Image: what does it mean exactly that objects are counted as having succeeded on their will saves? Can it carry them, or not?

    121: Hide is mentioned here; should be Stealth. Also, is it 1 hour/level or Scene duration?

    121: Regenerative Aura needs to have an explicit origin. You? Some point?

    122: Repelling Ward seems rather unclear. What is the maximum range? Both effects seem to trigger off of close range, but the exact points they enter play at is unclear.

    122: Resist Elements: now there are [curse] effects? With no save?

    122: Resist Energy: what? I don't get what's happening with the resistance and the ablative armor. Is this Resist Elements, but better, and lower level?

    124: Broken superscript in the scrying table, with no corresponding note.

    125: How does Spell Turning interact with dispels? How does it affect SLAs?

    128: Vortex: what can and can not be done by suspended creatures?

    132: Action type on False Life?

    137: Terrorizing Attacks looks like it can escalate way too quickly.

    138: Lord of the Damned: What kind of limits are there on this?

    138: Netherworld Grasp: this has the same problem as Hold Monster: one save separates you from certain death.

    139: Contagious Touch deals unspecified ability damage.

    145: Would it be better to word Worry Beads as giving you an extra trained skill?

    General problems:
    • No falling rules.
    • No rules for attacking or interacting with objects.
    • No rules for mounts.
    • No rules for size categories.
    • There are several status effects that are undefined.
    • I think there are a few really general rules that aren't explicitly mentioned, like whether to round down by default. Since I'm so experienced with 3.X, I'm afraid I'm somewhat blind to their absence, so I can't think of any more.
    Multas Gratias to Kopaka for the great avatar.

    Editor and playtester for Legend. Check it out, or drop in on the Legend Chat to have all your questions answered.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    a little more than 50 pages to go.

    skills/feats
    --does feign death remove a targets dex bonus?
    --can you use area of effect spells with rune magic? would they explode centerd on the target? it becomes slightly easier to detect the trap as you level up because of bonuses to skills.
    --big damn hero has lock offense, concentration, and lock all as effects that can be ignored, but i couldn't find those defined anywhere
    --bind offense from the terrible swift lash doesn't look like it's defined
    --this is a knife has critical effect, but that doesn't look defined
    --is the range for into the breach supposed to be different if you use it as a move action with unstoppable assault compared to the range for using it as a standard action?(20 feet with unstoppable assault, 40 feet into the breach)
    --bleeding from anatomical targeteer isn't defined
    --tact has an ability called dread secret and there's a feat called dread secret
    --fish in the water gives a swim speed and you can have by will sustained to never need to breathe, but you don't have rules for underwater combat
    --surprise round isn't defined
    --perfect maneuverability is not defined
    --can you 5 foot step in difficult terrain?
    --is the healing from medicine skill supposed to be negated by the battered condition?
    --page 87, you have a link to the 3.5 srd
    --death occurs at -con, but unconscious only goes from -1 to -9
    --you have no staff.
    --halberd is listed as a special weapon and deals 1d6, which contradicts the paragraph above weapons saying that special weapons deal 1d8

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    Claudius Maximus's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    I just realized that there is a lack of non-specialized unarmed strike mechanics. How do regular unarmed strikes work?
    Multas Gratias to Kopaka for the great avatar.

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    Default Re: [Legend] Full Beta

    In going back through this doc to make a ToS character, I'm noticing quite a few key words that are never defined anywhere, or only used once with a vague notion of what it might mean. I get the feeling that I'm supposed to assume quite a bit from 3.5, but then I run into problems about incorrect assumptions when it comes to things like full attacks. One example of this is [ethereal] which is used multiple times throughout the doc but never defined.

    Does spellcasting always and forever provoke AoOs? I haven't seen a feat that allows anything like defensive casting, but I haven't looked at the spellcasting clases very closely. Does the same apply to a class like the Sage that doesn't actual use those spells listed but seems to consist entirely of (Su) class abilities?

    Cure Critical Wounds doesn't have a casting time, but I'd assume it was Standard Action. Also, in the spell text the Cure line is listed as Shaman spells but only Cure Light and Cure Moderate are in the Shaman spell list in section 9.4.1.

    Heal in the Shaman spell list says it heals 5 points per level, and in the text says 4d4 + 6 per level.

    Some Shaman spells reference Wis for save DCs and some reference Int. Is this intentional to enforce some MAD, or just typos?

    Is the omission of Lesser items that boost Int, Wis, and Dex on purpose or simply an oversight?

    I'm a bit unclear as to how Worry Beads should work. It says you gain skill points equal to your level, but Legend doesn't seem to actually have "skill points", just "trained" and "untrained" for skills. Is it meant to give you an additional trained skill?

    Looking at armor, the doc has the following that seems contradictory:
    Magically- or technologically-enhanced light armor provides a +2 armor bonus to AC, and counts as a Lesser magic item (see Chapter 11). Light armor may be enhanced to provide other characteristics at the Lesser tier, but in that case increases AC by only 1.
    This seems contradictory to me. Does magic light armor give a total +2 or +3 AC?

    I'm confused in general about the kinds of armor. Are the Enhanced and Relic Armors referring to the magic items of Greater and Relic tiers found later in the doc? There don't seem to be any Enhanced Armor items created which adds to the confusion. The weapons section mentions that a magic weapon as a Greater item adds +2 to attacks. Since a Lesser magic armor removes penalties on Heavy armor, would a Greater version add +1 AC?

    Regarding Winged Armor, could I use one of my Greater Item slots to give the spiked gauntlets +2 attack? Since they're a natural weapon could I make a full attack with a weapon and one or more secondary attacks with the gauntlets?

    I Am Not Left Handed - does this AC penalty stack? It would seem to be subject to the general rule that only the worst penalty applies, but an Iconic feat that gives one or more opponents -1 AC doesn't seem that impressive to me.
    Last edited by Master_Rahl22; 2011-05-09 at 01:36 PM.
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