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2011-05-10, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
most prestidigitation abuse are like the cancer giving food it doesn't work unless your dm willingly lets you use a selective applications of real world physics to get the desired effect.
"Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour"
nothing here saying you can repeatedly heat something to massive levels by repeat castings. that material doesn't exist in dnd unless your dm says so, and if you heat something that much it would do damage so it's out of the question right there
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2011-05-10, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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2011-05-10, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- California
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Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
Spoiler: Campaign JournalsRising Star [PF Campaign Journal] (game ongoing, journal over probably)
The Good, The Bad, and the Psion [PF Campaign Journal] (complete)
I Wanna Hold Your Red Hand! [RHoD Campaign Journal] (complete)
Axinia: My campaign setting.
Avatar by Elder Tsofu
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2011-05-10, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- the 64th layer
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Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
I thought you were allowed to reduce the effective spell level to +0 if you combined a +2 metamagic and a +0 metamagic on your thesis'd spell. By my understanding, you get a total of +2 effective spell level from your metamagics and subtract 2 because there are two metamagics being used.
so 0+(2+2(-1))=0*note: not all advice by this poster is meant to be taken seriously.
Warlock/Swordsage avatar by yldenfrei
optimization is like salt. a pinch here and there can't hurt, but too much will spoil everything.
I have salty tastes.
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2011-05-10, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
sonic snap + fell drain don't work on mid level and foward, it has SR, so just at low level is ok.
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2011-05-10, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- VA
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Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
My favorite is coloring and flavoring Aboleth Mucous/ Poison as turtle soup a la Prestidigitation.
Costs all of 20 gold.Last edited by Mr.Smashy; 2011-05-10 at 10:55 AM.
____________________________________________
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I Am A: Lawful Evil Human Monk (4th Level)
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2011-05-10, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2011-05-10, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
For the purposes of using Fell Animate on a Wizard (or period), creating the undead is pointless unless you can command them, and without multiclassing into something that rebukes (Cleric or Dread Necromancer), and if you're making a substantial dip into Cleric to command undead as a Wizard, True Necromancer is a natural progression.
Frankly, if I wanted a Wizard necromancer, I would go the debuff-happy route, mostly because Incantatrix is so easy to PrC into that it's not even funny (you just have to do things that an effective debuffer would have to do anyway), and then you will eventually get access to Empowered, Maximized, Split Ray, Fell Drained, Twinned Enervations (with Arcane Thesis and some negative metamagic modifiers to back it up), which the four metamagic feats granted from Incantatrix progression get you pretty quickly. What's more, most low-level Necromantic debuffs (like Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Ray of Weakness) or debuffs from other schools (Enchanter's Ray of Stupidity and Sting Ray) can also be Split Ray'd, so you can basically pick your poison (neutralize weak things through STR penalty, neutralize stupid things through INT damage, neutralize everything else with negative levels). Then again, I'm an Incantatrix fanboy.
If I wanted to actually go Necromancer, though, I'd make a Dread Necromancer, just because I love hordes of souped-up undead so much that everybody with a weak PC stopped playing Diablo II with me years ago.
But for the purposes of Fell Animate, True Necromancer trumps straight Wizard, because True Necromancer picks up something along the way that lets you command your new playthings.
I'm pretty sure it's this. What the errata does expressly forbid, as I recall, is using this trick to turn a level 1 spell into a cantrip (in other words, as long as the net level isn't negative, you can cast normally).
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2011-05-10, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
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2011-05-11, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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2011-05-11, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Utah
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Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
The classic game-breaking abuse with cantrips is to use the Launch Bolt cantrip with Colossal-sized bolts.
You can call me Draz.
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2011-05-12, 06:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
a thoughtful DM can counter that easily.
4 size category difference = -8 to hit
216lbs for a quiver of 10 bolts
full round action to "load" your hand with a 20lb crossbow bolt
that does not sound practical or game breaking ... particularly when you are talking about a weakling wizard whose heavy load capacity is likely to be under 150lbs!
A generous DM might let a creative player get away with casting enlarge weapon 4 times on a quiver to help most of that, but that is seriously bending the rules since that is for melee weapons. Not a serious problem since it burns 4 rounds of a 1 round per lvl spell duration and immobilizes the caster for the duration.Last edited by ubergeek63; 2011-05-12 at 06:27 AM.
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2011-05-12, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
That you can do. But, someone mentioned preparing a spell in a slot lower than it's original level. AT can't do that. In fact, significant shenanigans are required to pull that off, generally. Not a lot of cantrips out there in total, so even the usual method of finding a partial caster list with spells slotted lower than normal isn't that helpful.
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2011-05-12, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
The feat investment doesn't have to be huge. The thing is, you're thinking in the wrong direction with Fell Animate by putting it on Enervate. Instead, put it on Acid Splash.
When your party drops an enemy with damage, is that enemy always dead? Frequently, it'll be knocked into the negatives and left unconscious to bleed while the PCs move on to the next enemy. Coup de grace the enemy with a Fell Animating Acid Splash. You've spent a lower-level slot than you would've for Animate Dead, gotten the same zombie, didn't spend a material component and the only down sides are that you have a narrow window to use it and you can't make a skeleton instead. One feat for cost-free undead is a pretty good deal in the right campaign.
Chill Touch is also good for this, especially for dread necromancers who don't get cantrips. Kelgore's Grave Mist (PHB2) deserves some mention as well, as a large-AoE ongoing-damage spell, and one dread necromancers can get to boot; basically anyone you chop down into the negatives in its area of effect is likely to be finished off by it and zombified under your control immediately.
A situation of special note is the illumian dread necromancer. A second-level illumian with the right sigils gets a Divine Metamagic-like ability to convert turning/rebuking attempts into metamagic twice per day. Since dread necromancers have rebuking ability, they can cast a fell animating chill touch starting at level 2 and start getting zombies much earlier than just about anyone else except incarnates. Again one feat investment, although in this case it also determines your race pick.
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2011-05-12, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
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- Studying-upon-laptop
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
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2011-05-12, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
"causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow ... or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus [light crossbow], and so on) apply."
therefore, if you are allowed to "fire" a colossal bolt, it would be as if fired from a colossal crossbow.
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2011-05-12, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
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2011-05-12, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
I was thinking more from the perspective of "Arcane Thesis + other metamagic shenanigans on Enervation (like Incantatrix or Dwoemerkeeper 10) to create a Heightened, Empowered, Twinned, Split Ray, Fell Drained (plus mitigating modifiers like Invisible) Enervation to take out the two biggest, baddest looking things in the room in one fell swoop (get it? fell?), then turning them on the rest of your enemy group in the same combat."
I'm not going to lie--Fell Animate on cantrips isn't where my mind went with this, and it's a creative (and less intensive) way to use it, which is great. Acid Splash also has better long-term applications (because you're not blowing your biggest spell on it, or waiting until level eleventy to get it off), though I've known too many prime targets to fall to the wayside because the Barbarian in full rage x3 crits with a Power Attack on the 3HP Dire Bear and craters its skull in. Sometimes there is no "dying", just "dead, holy cow is it dead".
That isn't to say the both can't coexist, either--even without metamagic modifiers, Fell Animate is available on cantrips at level 5, before you even get Enervation (let alone before you can perform metamagic shenanigans with it), or even level 3 if you Easy Megamatic it, so you can start using Acid Splash early, keep it through the late levels (for those "crimes of opportunity" where you can coup-de-grace a dying foe with it), and also use cheesed-out Enervation for the enemy you just don't want falling to the wayside. No extra feat investment, no conflict with spell slots... And a whole lot of undead monsters at your disposal.
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2011-05-12, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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2011-05-12, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
lol ... the point was -8 to hit and "reload time" of over a round for a weapon you could not carry with you.
colossal is 6x larger in each direction and 216 times the weight. a quiver of 10 bolts would weigh 216lbs. each bolt would be 6 feet long, 2 inches thick, and weigh 20lbs!
now your wizard probably can only carry 100lbs as a heavy load.
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2011-05-12, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Spoiler: Campaign JournalsRising Star [PF Campaign Journal] (game ongoing, journal over probably)
The Good, The Bad, and the Psion [PF Campaign Journal] (complete)
I Wanna Hold Your Red Hand! [RHoD Campaign Journal] (complete)
Axinia: My campaign setting.
Avatar by Elder Tsofu
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2011-05-12, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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2011-05-12, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-05-12, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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2011-05-12, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
it doesn't let you fire a crossbow - it replaces the crossbow.
i saves a move action to equip the bow and the clumsy, fragile 4lb weapon getting in your way. a move action to equip and a move action to load before you can fire a single shot compared to a free action to draw out a bolt for a cantrip "weapon" - seems decent to me.Last edited by ubergeek63; 2011-05-12 at 08:24 PM.
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2011-05-13, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
Not quite game-breaking, but I only recently realised how useful that stupid little message spell is... Perfect for stealth/scouting missions. Decent range, decent duration, it's like a magic walkie-talkie. Your party need never be separated again.
Awesome fremetar by wxdruid.
From the discomfort of truth there is only one refuge and that is ignorance. I do not need to be comfortable, and I will not take refuge. I demand to *know*.
So I guess I have an internets? | And a trophy. | And a music cookie (whatever that is).
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2011-05-13, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- California
- Gender
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
Spoiler: Campaign JournalsRising Star [PF Campaign Journal] (game ongoing, journal over probably)
The Good, The Bad, and the Psion [PF Campaign Journal] (complete)
I Wanna Hold Your Red Hand! [RHoD Campaign Journal] (complete)
Axinia: My campaign setting.
Avatar by Elder Tsofu
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2011-05-13, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2011-05-13, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
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2011-05-13, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
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- Studying-upon-laptop
Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more
But a bag of holding would look awesomer. You can tell someone is a tier 1 class when they cast a spell and a crossbow bolt flies at deadly speed out of a bag that could not possibly contain it.
Eww... Just stick an immovable rod in the bag of holding and call it a day.
Immovable rods: the solution to any problem. Such as need to discipline fighters. And anyone else.