Thread: Using Cantrips to break the game more

1. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Moose Man
Prestidigitation says it can lift one pound of material slowly, correct? Supercompress any material. It eventually becomes a tiny black hole.
No. That merely means it can exert 1 pound of force. The force required to increase the internal energy will greatly exceed 1 pound well before it turns into a black hole [/physics]

2. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

No, two opposing forces of one pound. Provided you can cast it a large number of times, like with a ring of prestidigitation, you can get the amount of compressed substance to fuse (nuclear fusion). Not quite a black hole, but if you can have hundreds of thousands of solars casting one epic spell, I'm pretty sure you can get a bunch of sorcerers/wizards/UMD abusers to cast it with you.

3. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Moose Man
No, two opposing forces of one pound. Provided you can cast it a large number of times, like with a ring of prestidigitation, you can get the amount of compressed substance to fuse (nuclear fusion). Not quite a black hole, but if you can have hundreds of thousands of solars casting one epic spell, I'm pretty sure you can get a bunch of sorcerers/wizards/UMD abusers to cast it with you.
Yeah, still not gonna do anything, unless you're stacking them. Since they last 1 hour, you can get a maximum of 600 pounds of force per person this way which is far, far, far away from what you need to get anything interesting. That's like claiming black holes are gonna form by stacking a pair of cars on top of each other. To give you an idea of the numbers involved in making black holes:
As a first order approximation, let us suppose that the coulombic force is the dominant force supporting up a pair of electrons from falling inside their schwarzchild radius and forming a black hole. You'd need about 10^107 prestidigitations to make a pair of electrons collapse. Good luck with that.

4. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Infernalbargain
Yeah, still not gonna do anything, unless you're stacking them. Since they last 1 hour, you can get a maximum of 600 pounds of force per person this way which is far, far, far away from what you need to get anything interesting. That's like claiming black holes are gonna form by stacking a pair of cars on top of each other. To give you an idea of the numbers involved in making black holes:
As a first order approximation, let us suppose that the coulombic force is the dominant force supporting up a pair of electrons from falling inside their schwarzchild radius and forming a black hole. You'd need about 10^107 prestidigitations to make a pair of electrons collapse. Good luck with that.
Oh my god, the poor catgirls! There's gore everywhere!!

5. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Marnath
Oh my god, the poor catgirls! There's gore everywhere!!
FEAR MY POWER OF MATHZ!!! FEAR ME!!!

6. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Technically speaking, planeshift can get you to the Endless Plane of People Who have prestidigitation at-will and are willing to help strangers. 10^107 people is easy to achieve.
I also said it's possible, not probable.

7. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Moose Man
Technically speaking, planeshift can get you to the Endless Plane of People Who have prestidigitation at-will and are willing to help strangers. 10^107 people is easy to achieve.
I also said it's possible, not probable.
Prest has a range of 10 ft. good luck getting 10^107 people within a 10 ft. radius within an hour.

8. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Infernalbargain
Prest has a range of 10 ft. good luck getting 10^107 people within a 10 ft. radius within an hour.

That is, you grapple four people. Each of those grapples you and three others. And so on. You don't need to get them there in an hour, just have them all be there for an hour.

Everybody voluntarily fails the grapple check to oppose other castings of prestidigitation.

9. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

O_o ... Catgirls ... all gone ...

EDIT: Hey, with all the mass of the people in a five foot square, that could possibly create a black hole, because volume almost doesn't exist in D&D.

10. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Siosilvar

That is, you grapple four people. Each of those grapples you and three others. And so on. You don't need to get them there in an hour, just have them all be there for an hour.

Everybody voluntarily fails the grapple check to oppose other castings of prestidigitation.
Actually just getting ~10^26 people within a 10 ft. radius will cause all the people to collapse into a black hole.

11. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Wouldn't they all be dead if it is an endless plane of people who have Presti at-will and are willing to help strangers? After all, you can'y have been the first person to think of making a black hole with them.

Also, food?

12. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by giantmudkip
Wouldn't they all be dead if it is an endless plane of people who have Presti at-will and are willing to help strangers? After all, you can'y have been the first person to think of making a black hole with them.

Also, food?
Prestidigitation can make anything taste like whatever you want. There are endless amounts of them...

13. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Jjeinn-tae
Prestidigitation can make anything taste like whatever you want. There are endless amounts of them...
Great, so now they all taste nice.

The at-will prestidigitation cannibalistic people of the endless plane of at-will prestidigitation cannibalistic people.

14. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by giantmudkip
Great, so now they all taste nice.

The at-will prestidigitation cannibalistic people of the endless plane of at-will prestidigitation cannibalistic people.
They are quite helpful people though, it's just that those arms weigh so much. They're only trying to lighten the load you see.

15. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Hey, you're scaring the kids...
Munch

16. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

*steals the Fell Animate Sonic Snap*

17. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Jjeinn-tae
They are quite helpful people though, it's just that those arms weigh so much. They're only trying to lighten the load you see.
Since the plane is infinite anyway, and it is crammed full of these people, then surely they would all be crushed against one another?

A plane of helpful people that float in an infinitely deep sea of their brethren's crushed bodies.

Mmm... People jam...

18. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

There's Infinite space, occupied by infinite people. Infinity-N=infinity. Even if that N=Infinity

19. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Infernalbargain
Actually just getting ~10^26 people within a 10 ft. radius will cause all the people to collapse into a black hole.
Mission accomplised.

Originally Posted by Moose Man
There's Infinite space, occupied by infinite people. Infinity-N=infinity. Even if that N=Infinity
Actually, that one depends on which infinity is bigger. Either way, you still end up with an infinity, even if it isn't the same one.

But what you should be looking at is (mass)/(volume), and L'Hôpital tells me that would approach 0 as you near infinite quantities of both, if only because mass is one variable and volume is three (each length).

20. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Well, there's always the good old Hotel Paradox...

(Set theory is rather rigorous, even if it often appears to defy common sense.)

21. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Siosilvar
Actually, that one depends on which infinity is bigger. Either way, you still end up with an infinity, even if it isn't the same one.
It's been a while since I did any of this, but wouldn't they both be aleph-null? I thought the higher orders only applied to sets.

22. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Divide by Zero
It's been a while since I did any of this, but wouldn't they both be aleph-null? I thought the higher orders only applied to sets.
Infinite people is aleph-naught. Infinite space (or infinite points on an n-dimensional space for any arbitrary n) is aleph-one.

23. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by NNescio
Infinite people is aleph-naught. Infinite space (or infinite points on an n-dimensional space for any arbitrary n) is aleph-one.
Ah yeah, now I remember how that works. So he was right, but for the wrong reason.

24. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

25. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by kardar233
GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.
Don't forget catgirls. Lots of dead catgirls.

26. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by Divide by Zero
Ah yeah, now I remember how that works. So he was right, but for the wrong reason.
Yeah. Also, he was trying to use L'Hopital's rule for a multivariable function... (m/ℓ3 instead of x/x3) which doesn't really apply without first jumping through a lot of hoops.

Originally Posted by kardar233
GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.
Blame the fluff authors for throwing around the word "infinite" nilly-willy.

Mind if I sig this though?

27. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by NNescio
which doesn't really apply without first jumping through a lot of hoops.
Leap, Leap, Leap

28. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by NNescio
Blame the fluff authors for throwing around the word "infinite" nilly-willy.

Mind if I sig this though?
Not at all.

In fact, that's the first time I've been sigged. Ever. Awesome.

29. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by giantmudkip
Prestidigitation canheat somthing up by about 35F or something like that. Get a piece of Tungsten and cast the spell around 100 times. Now you have a fission candle that ignites the atmosphere.
Prestididgation can't cause harm. 60 degrees celsius is enough to burn (or start breaking proteins or whatever). Therefore, you cannot make anything hotter than say mid 50c with it.

(approx 130 fahrenheit is the maximum)

30. Re: Using Cantrips to break the game more

Originally Posted by kardar233
GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.
Funny how those seem to coincide...

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