Using Cantrips to break the game more

[Benly]

Prestididgation can't cause harm. 60 degrees celsius is enough to burn (or start breaking proteins or whatever). Therefore, you cannot make anything hotter than say mid 50c with it.

(approx 130 fahrenheit is the maximum)

You can as long as it's not harming something that the arcane forces of the universe recognize as a creature. For example, you can probably grill a steak with it just fine.

[HalfDragonCube]

You can as long as it's not harming something that the arcane forces of the universe recognize as a creature. For example, you can probably grill a steak with it just fine.

Or that it causes something that the arcane forces of the universe recognises as an attack roll.

[Amechra]

I seem to remember the way the Launch Bolt spell worked was by grabbing Eschew Materials.

Since the crossbow bolt is actually both focus and material component...

[HalfDragonCube]

I seem to remember the way the Launch Bolt spell worked was by grabbing Eschew Materials.

Since the crossbow bolt is actually both focus and material component...

So now the spell is pretty much a free crossbow.

[Amridell]

Mage hand. Coronary. 'Nuff said.

[TroubleBrewing]

Mage hand. Coronary. 'Nuff said.

Need LoS for that, or at very least LoE.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's a line in one of the core books that specifically disallows this kind of thing.

Good thought, though.

[Elrihm]

Hey, it's not a cantrip, but would magic missile count individually on fell drain? An arcane thesis, easy metamagic fell drain on that would be....ridiculous if it dealt individual negative levels, that scales.

[TroubleBrewing]

Sadly, no. Magic Missle is a volley attack, which only counts effects once. (Otherwise, it'd be broken with Sneak Attack, too!)

[Coidzor]

Sadly, no. Magic Missle is a volley attack, which only counts effects once. (Otherwise, it'd be broken with Sneak Attack, too!)

Magic Missile doesn't have an attack roll, so sneak attack damage can't apply, I had thought.

[Flame of Anor]

that depends on the fighter's gender ;)

Eww... Just stick an immovable rod in the bag of holding and call it a day.

Immovable rods: the solution to any problem. Such as need to discipline fighters. And anyone else.

Miko already had one stuck in, but it just turned her into Miko the Fighter-without-bonus-feats.

[Elrihm]

Magic Missile doesn't have an attack roll, so sneak attack damage can't apply, I had thought.

Agreed, sneak attack has to be made with an attack roll. My question though is in the fact that you can target five different people with magic missile, creating five targets for fell drain and 5 negative levels. if they dont stack on to one character, then that makes no sense. where do they go if they dont?

[NineThePuma]

Agreed, sneak attack has to be made with an attack roll. My question though is in the fact that you can target five different people with magic missile, creating five targets for fell drain and 5 negative levels. if they dont stack on to one character, then that makes no sense. where do they go if they dont?

Yes, this is what happens.

[Elrihm]

Do you mean yes, the negative levels stack, or yes they dont stack?

[NineThePuma]

They do not stack on a single target, but you can spread them out.

It's the wording of Fell Drain that does it.

Sort of like how Duskblades can't channel a touch spell into the same target more than once on a full attack.

[Gullintanni]

Hey, it's not a cantrip, but would magic missile count individually on fell drain? An arcane thesis, easy metamagic fell drain on that would be....ridiculous if it dealt individual negative levels, that scales.

The most optimized you can get on Magic Missile + Fell Drain is awarding negative levels to multiple targets. The way Fell Drain is worded, only the first instance of a spell causing damage causes level drain. Still, 1 negative level for five enemies from a level 2 spell slot isn't bad.

[RCgothic]

On the subject of prestidigitation, even if you could collapse 1lb of material into a black hole, it still wouldn't exert any more of a gravitational pull than 1lb of material would. You could also move it around as 1lb of material.

At best it would make an extremely dense and practically unstoppable/immovable yet utterlynanoscopic particle. It would have less of an effect than running someone through with a single carbon nanotube. The target wouldn't even feel it.

[Flame of Anor]

On the subject of prestidigitation, even if you could collapse 1lb of material into a black hole, it still wouldn't exert any more of a gravitational pull than 1lb of material would. You could also move it around as 1lb of material.

At best it would make an extremely dense and practically unstoppable/immovable yet utterlynanoscopic particle. It would have less of an effect than running someone through with a single carbon nanotube. The target wouldn't even feel it.

If you held it in someone it would eventually suck them up.

[NNescio]

So, miniature Sphere of Annihilation?

[Divide by Zero]

If you held it in someone it would eventually suck them up.

Debatable. The Schwarzschild radius of a 1-pound mass would be tiny, so it'd take a long time to do any relevant damage, and as soon as the sustaining spell ended, it would dissipate almost instantaneously.

[QuidEst]

If you held it in someone it would eventually suck them up.

Nope- sorry. Gravity increases inverse to the square of distance. Fortunately for us, very few things are point masses. Everything behaves like a black hole gravitationally- provided you're outside the volume. (If our sun mysteriously collapsed into a black hole, there wouldn't by any gravitational difference to the planets.) Black holes act like point masses, though. You can get closer and closer and closer, and every time you halve the distance, you get four times the gravitational pull.

Back to the one-pound mass. Outside of the volume of the mass, there's no difference. Go half way to the center, it pulls as much as a four pound mass would if you were at the surface of the original volume. Half way again, 16 pounds… 64, 256, and so on. But say you were standing next to a very, very heavy weight- tons and tons. You still wouldn't notice the attraction. Now, if you shrank it down far enough, yes, almost infinitely close it could give you black hole effects I suppose. At worst, that sucks up some molecules, maybe a cell or two, I don't know. But that's just going to clear an empty space. (It would have to suck up a full pound of matter to even double its gravity, so you're not going to get a cool runaway matter-eating black hole that keeps growing.) Game-mechanics-wise, once somebody has to start rolling for damage, I think the spell runs into problems.

The other part of this is that (so far as I understand it) black holes aren't stable in the long run. For full-size black holes, it's a pretty long life cycle. I don't think a single-pound black hole would be able to make it, though.

I should note, of course, that this is all only to the best of my understanding. I'm not an expert, so it's based on science films, presentations, and the like that I've seen.

[ubergeek63]

The most optimized you can get on Magic Missile + Fell Drain is awarding negative levels to multiple targets. The way Fell Drain is worded, only the first instance of a spell causing damage causes level drain. Still, 1 negative level for five enemies from a level 2 spell slot isn't bad.

Hmmm.... you wanna break the game with a cantrip fine:

Arcane thesis (acid splash)
energy substitution (fire)
Fell Drain

you can get a wand of lvl drain for 187GP+30XP (still a cantrip) if you have the create wand feat! Maybe less 30% as it has an alignment requirement!

Add Fell Animate and it becomes a 2nd lvl spell wand of create zombies!

[Zonugal]

Hmmm.... you wanna break the game with a cantrip fine:

Arcane thesis (acid splash)
energy substitution (fire)
Fell Drain

you can get a wand of lvl drain for 187GP+30XP (still a cantrip) if you have the create wand feat! Maybe less 30% as it has an alignment requirement!

Add Fell Animate and it becomes a 2nd lvl spell wand of create zombies!

Why energy substitution (fire) if I can ask?

[TroubleBrewing]

Why energy substitution (fire) if I can ask?

A better question would be "Why not use Sonic Snap/Easy Metamagic?" It doesn't require an attack roll, and costs a 0th level slot.

That trick happened on like... page 1, I think?

[ClothedInVelvet]

What about dropping a portable hole into a bag of holding. 10-ft radius gone. A remote controlled bomb?

[TroubleBrewing]

What about dropping a portable hole into a bag of holding. 10-ft radius gone. A remote controlled bomb?

That's not really remote controlled... Nor is it a cantrip.

[ClothedInVelvet]

That's not really remote controlled... Nor is it a cantrip.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Use Prestidigitation to drop a portable hole into a bag of holding. When you're not within 10', there's no reason not to (other than the money).

[NNescio]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Use Prestidigitation to drop a portable hole into a bag of holding. When you're not within 10', there's no reason not to (other than the money).

Prestidigitation
Universal
Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft.
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: 1 hour
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

I suppose you can drop the portable hole into the bag of holding from a height, but you might as well just skip the middleman altogether (read: use your bare hands) if you are going that route.

[Divide by Zero]

Why energy substitution (fire) if I can ask?

Presumably for the -1 from Arcane Thesis.

[Flame of Anor]

Nope- sorry. Gravity increases inverse to the square of distance. Fortunately for us, very few things are point masses. Everything behaves like a black hole gravitationally- provided you're outside the volume. (If our sun mysteriously collapsed into a black hole, there wouldn't by any gravitational difference to the planets.) Black holes act like point masses, though. You can get closer and closer and closer, and every time you halve the distance, you get four times the gravitational pull.

Back to the one-pound mass. Outside of the volume of the mass, there's no difference. Go half way to the center, it pulls as much as a four pound mass would if you were at the surface of the original volume. Half way again, 16 pounds… 64, 256, and so on. But say you were standing next to a very, very heavy weight- tons and tons. You still wouldn't notice the attraction. Now, if you shrank it down far enough, yes, almost infinitely close it could give you black hole effects I suppose. At worst, that sucks up some molecules, maybe a cell or two, I don't know. But that's just going to clear an empty space. (It would have to suck up a full pound of matter to even double its gravity, so you're not going to get a cool runaway matter-eating black hole that keeps growing.) Game-mechanics-wise, once somebody has to start rolling for damage, I think the spell runs into problems.

You're just proving that it would take a very long time to suck the person up. With the spell keeping it completely contained, it couldn't get less massive. So it would only get more massive by random molecules bumping into it, but that's still a nondecreasing function, and not bounded above, so it goes to infinity...eventually. I don't think the PHB mentions the relation of mage hand to Hawking radiation, though...

[Divide by Zero]

You're just proving that it would take a very long time to suck the person up. With the spell keeping it completely contained, it couldn't get less massive. So it would only get more massive by random molecules bumping into it, but that's still a nondecreasing function, and not bounded above, so it goes to infinity...eventually. I don't think the PHB mentions the relation of mage hand to Hawking radiation, though...

If the spell has a mass limit, then what happens when the black hole exceeds that mass? And if it's a weight limit instead, then how does it interact with relativistic effects?