Using Cantrips to break the game more

[NullShadow]

The most optimized you can get on Magic Missile + Fell Drain is awarding negative levels to multiple targets. The way Fell Drain is worded, only the first instance of a spell causing damage causes level drain. Still, 1 negative level for five enemies from a level 2 spell slot isn't bad.

Just wondering, what would happen if you added persistent and twin spell to that?(plus all the usual shenanigans)

[NNescio]

Just wondering, what would happen if you added persistent and twin spell to that?(plus all the usual shenanigans)

You can't add Persistent spell to Magic Missile. Or any instantaneous spell, for that matter. It's the same reason why it won't work on Orb of Fire either, which also has a rider effect.

A Twinned MM is effectively the same as casting it twice, so it can inflict up to two negative levels on the same target.

[ubergeek63]

A better question would be "Why not use Sonic Snap/Easy Metamagic?" It doesn't require an attack roll, and costs a 0th level slot.

That trick happened on like... page 1, I think?

forgot about sonic snap, but that would use more than a 0 lvl since it always adds at least one lvl to the spell.

EDIT: plus sonic snap allows SR, acid splatter does not... so there is a trace off between SR and touch attack

[ubergeek63]

Why energy substitution (fire) if I can ask?

Arcane thesis lowers the resultant spell lvl by one for EVERY metamagic applied down to the base spell lvl.

fell drain is +2 lvls -1 for thesis and energy sub is 0 lvls -1 for thesis to net a 0 lvl spell

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yeah, you have to Arcane Thesis a cantrip to use metamagic on a cantrip without going above 0.

That said, from there you could go with a Thesis'd Fell Drained Invisible Sonic Snap at level 1 with a single flaw (Energy Substitution can't substitute sonic-based spells) and show your DM why you should never homerule unlimited cantrip use...

EDIT: By the way, how cool would that spell be at level 1? All of a sudden, your opponent hears a loud "pop" sound next to their ear, and they fall dead instantly...

[RCgothic]

You're just proving that it would take a very long time to suck the person up. With the spell keeping it completely contained, it couldn't get less massive. So it would only get more massive by random molecules bumping into it, but that's still a nondecreasing function, and not bounded above, so it goes to infinity...eventually. I don't think the PHB mentions the relation of mage hand to Hawking radiation, though...

The Radius of a 1lb black hole would be 6.75*10^-28 meters. This is just 41million planck lengths, as small to a proton as a proton is to a meter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarz...ial_black_hole

Because of the tiny radius, this 1lb mass would have a density of 3.5*10^80kg/m^3. By comparison, the density of the supermassive black hole at the centre of the milky way barely needs standard notation: 1.08*10^6kg/m^3. So you'd have to compact it at least 10^74 times more than a supermassive black hole in order to create any effect. The above article mentions that no known IRL mechanism could achieve this. So by DM fiat, I'd rule creating mini black holes a long way beyond the ability of a cantrip.

But assuming the DM doesn't intervene, what would happen if a tiny black hole strikes the earth: http://www.universetoday.com/12837/w...hit-the-earth/
Not much. And our black hole is a LOT smaller than that, and would have a MUCH smaller path it could affect through a medium sized target. The target wouldn't notice it. If you held it inside the target, then it wouldn't produce the radiation because it wouldn't be moving. Nearby protons and electrons would barely notice it either - it still only has the attractive force of a 1lb mass, with a radius of 42 million planck lengths, so it wouldn't be bumping in to too many things either. It might attract a few subatomic particles here or there, but nothing that wouldn't be missed or easily replcaed by any living creature. The universe would probably die before the black hole accumulated enough mass to consume the target.

However, there is one way to do a massive amount of damage with a 1lb mass compressed nearly into a black hole. No known force in the universe can hold matter so densely together, so by releasing the spell the mass would explode with a never before seen force. We're probably talking energy equivalent to a total conversion bomb. 1lb of matter totally converted into energy would be just under 20Megatonnes, and we could easily have more than that. Congratulations, you can now glass the surface of a planet with a cantrip.

Unfortunately you'd have to be standing within 10 feet.

tl;dr version:

Spoiler

Show

Any DM should disallow the supercompression required. If they don't, then the resultant black hole won't do much. But it will explode in your face with one of the largest explosions ever generated by man when you stop casting.

If one of your party members tries this, the other members should teleport at least 200km away, or else buy very fast horses and pray.

[ubergeek63]

Yeah, you have to Arcane Thesis a cantrip to use metamagic on a cantrip without going above 0.

That said, from there you could go with a Thesis'd Fell Drained Invisible Sonic Snap at level 1 with a single flaw (Energy Substitution can't substitute sonic-based spells) and show your DM why you should never homerule unlimited cantrip use...

EDIT: By the way, how cool would that spell be at level 1? All of a sudden, your opponent hears a loud "pop" sound next to their ear, and they fall dead instantly...

now breaking the game with cantrips would be for a lvl 17 cantripologist (from d&dwiki.com, dont know off hand if it is anywhere else) would be able to drain 18 lvls per round with no save!

[mootoall]

Heh, one of my players just gave me this one.

Risidual Magic on a Shadowcraft Mage using Heighten Spell, Arcane Disciple and a metamagic reducer to make Silent Image cast Miracle out of a cantrip slot. Brutal.

[Barstro]

Nearby protons and electrons would barely notice it either - it still only has the attractive force of a 1lb mass, with a radius of 42 million planck lengths, so it wouldn't be bumping in to too many things either.

Any particles that are within range of the event horizon will become part of the black hole, increase its mass, and thus increase the radius of the event horizon. Barring another force, this cycle will continue until everything is destroyed.

As stated, the black hole itself (beyond the event horizon) would act just like any other one-pound object. Thus, it would still be attracted to the earth's center of gravity and attempt to accelerate towards the core, just like we do. Being so small, nothing would get into the way of the black hole, and it would just become part of the core, where it's event horizon would eventually find an equilibrium with the core surrounding it.

No known force in the universe can hold matter so densely together,

I had thought that a black hole was self sustaining (its own gravity is what kept it together). But I never fully grasped Hawking as much as I would like (and certainly less than you seem to), so I will have to take your word for it that small black holes have a short duration.

[RCgothic]

Any particles that are within range of the event horizon will become part of the black hole, increase its mass, and thus increase the radius of the event horizon. Barring another force, this cycle will continue until everything is destroyed.

True, but the event horizon is so small that it won't bump into much, as the vast majority of materials consists only of empty space. 1lb worth of gravitational force outside the event horizon is sufficient to capture some particles, but not at a rate lethal to any living target.

I had thought that a black hole was self sustaining (its own gravity is what kept it together). But I never fully grasped Hawking as much as I would like (and certainly less than you seem to), so I will have to take your word for it that small black holes have a short duration.

It depends on the rate of evaporation and absorption. Both are likely to be on geological timescales, and thus not of much interest to the lay adventurer, though I'm going on gut feeling here, someone else may have more accurate figures.

The bigger problem than hawking radiation or the event horizon is the energies involved in crushing the matter down to the required size. Once you have already crushed something into neutronium, degeneracy pressure rises rapidly, requiring you to impart relativistic energy levels to the matter you're crushing. Once you release all that matter, assuming you haven't quite reached the swarzchild radius to form an event horizon, you end up with a very large bomb, which will easily be on the scale of tens of Megatons for a 1lb material.

And you have to be standing within 10ft to cast it.

[ubergeek63]

Heh, one of my players just gave me this one.

Risidual Magic on a Shadowcraft Mage using Heighten Spell, Arcane Disciple and a metamagic reducer to make Silent Image cast Miracle out of a cantrip slot. Brutal.

i will have to look at that one... I am still fond of the cantripologist idea though - a 5KGP ring of wizardry 0 would allow him to drain 600 lvls per day at 18 per round

if you add fell animate it would be an instant dragon zombie!

[Morph Bark]

Prestididgation can't cause harm. 60 degrees celsius is enough to burn (or start breaking proteins or whatever). Therefore, you cannot make anything hotter than say mid 50c with it.

(approx 130 fahrenheit is the maximum)

Prestidigitation can't cause harm... but it wouldn't if it isn't targeted directly at a creature. You could heat up a rock to hundreds of degrees, then chuck it at someone, but you couldn't heat up an earth elemental that much.

[Eric Tolle]

The black hole wouldn't have time to do anything, because Hawking radiation for an object that size would mean it would evaporate almost instantaneously. When I ran some BOTE figures, I got something like 2.5 X 10^-37 seconds duration. On the plus side, the explosion from the rapid evaporation wouldn't be THAT bad- BOTE calculations give the explosion as being only in the range of a couple megatons.

For that level of ingenuity I would be tempted to say: "Congratulations, you succeeded, now roll up a new character. No point buy; as your reward you get to roll 3D6, six times, in order."

[QuidEst]

For that level of ingenuity I would be tempted to say: "Congratulations, you succeeded, now roll up a new character. No point buy; as your reward you get to roll 3D6, six times, in order."

XD Nice… I'm generally of the opinion that the more science you attempt to use, the more science you should expect to have thrown back at you. Relativity, black holes, quantum mechanics, and nuclear physics are all high-risk topics.

[Delcor]

I'd like to say something about the prestidigitation heating 35degrees fission candle or whatever.

What self respecting experienced DM would rule that the (35degree) heatings stack? Its a cantrip, its meant to be weak, so as soon as you utter the word unlimited, it can be abused. Does this make sense?

[QuidEst]

I'd like to say something about the prestidigitation heating 35degrees fission candle or whatever.

What self respecting experienced DM would rule that the (35degree) heatings stack? Its a cantrip, its meant to be weak, so as soon as you utter the word unlimited, it can be abused. Does this make sense?

Agreed. If you're going to break something with a cantrip, it should be done simply, elegantly, and without little room for DM interruption.