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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Silver Dragon playable Class (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    That would be interesting. Something like the option to combine say, Hold person with the breath, and any one target of the breath is affected by it?
    Or perhaps all targets, and the ability to channel an SLA into a breath weapon is gained about four levels after the class gains the SLA.
    I think I've had enough for a while.

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    Default Re: Silver Dragon playable Class (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    Or perhaps all targets, and the ability to channel an SLA into a breath weapon is gained about four levels after the class gains the SLA.
    Wouldn't that make hold person mass and hold monster mass kind of redundant?

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    Default Re: Silver Dragon playable Class (3.5)

    Yes, but it's more thematic. Alternatively, we can mine Draconomicon for ideas. Doesn't it have metabreath feats like that?
    Last edited by Solaris; 2011-05-19 at 07:43 PM.
    I think I've had enough for a while.

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    Default Re: Silver Dragon playable Class (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    Yes, but it's more thematic. Alternatively, we can mine Draconomicon for ideas. Doesn't it have metabreath feats like that?
    Well, I guess I can do that, which would open space up for the other SLAs I was told to add.

    EDIT: Okay, I removed the "Hold X" line entirely and just made the Paralyzing breath better. If it needs boosted further, just say so. I also replaced the Sun domain choice with Water since it makes more sense for a storm dragon.

    EDIT2: Okay, I think I've put in enough stuff to make it unique, make it a storm dragon, and make it fun. I gave it two new abilities at every level, and some levels even have 3.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-05-24 at 03:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Silver Dragon playable Class (3.5)

    In depth critique of things minor and major:
    • From a flavor standpoint, not a huge fan of the flavor text provided above the class details. I recognize that disconnecting from the standard age = size category to class level = size category is a bit weird, but as is, it kind of jibes with the notion of playing a regular ol' silver dragon. I suggest letting people come up with their own explanations, or offering a few in the flavor text if need be.
    • Your attacks at level one are kind of overwhelming. As many as a common housecat! Only where the dreaded housecat has size bonuses, you've got full BAB and bigger damage die. So you're full attacking for a potential 24 damage at a point when most foes will have around 10 hp.
    • Alternate form may be abusable. I'd be hard pressed to name exactly how, but there's a distinct disconnect between CR and HD. I'm sure there's some animal/humanoid forms with low HD but potent racial bonuses/effects.
    • You've got inconsistent usage of Silver Dragon (capitalized) and silver dragon (no caps). A case sensitive find & replace will fix that.
    • Draconic Roar - I would say that if you're halving the damage already, it would make more sense to just negate it if the surrounding foes make their Reflex save, as opposed to quartering it if they do.
    • Just curious what your line of thinking was on the ability scores. They're kind of sporadic until a certain point, where they come in very consistently. What was the aim?
    • Silver Ingenuity should perhaps be "At level 4 the silver dragon gains 4 additional skill points, and gains 1 additional skill point for every HD it has after the first, and every HD it acquires thereafter." as the current wording of 'applied retroactively' can create awkward situations/vagueness.
    • Under silver resistances, should be 'gains immunity to cold and electricity resistance...'
    • Boon of Bahamut needs to state that it's a touch skill and a standard action.
    • Domain - I'd suggest clarifying to "Chooses one domain from the following:"
    • Domain - also, I'd clarify to "you do not get the granted power of any chosen domains." - as read, it could be interpreted as referring to the storm domain.
    • The paladin spellcasting is confusing. Is it retroactive? Maybe refer to it as "spellcasting of a paladin X levels lower than him?"
    • Minor flavor issue with Improved Alternate Form - is there really any reason for a dragon to not just be in a special form 24/7 for the racial bonuses/features/abilities?
    • Silver Will is a bit over the top for the level you get it. It's basically mind blank (an 8th level spell) at level 14.
    • Frightful presence - I'd suggest allowing the Silver Dragon to turn it off.
    • Protective Aura - A +4 to all saves for all allies at level 16 is pretty major. This, if anything, should be a capstone.
    • Same issue with Bahamut's Grace. Huge bonus to saves is huge (only here it's a potential +6 to +8)
    • Lightning Breath - the range thing needs to be clarified. I can't fathom the intention.


    Scoring:
    Originality: I like the direction that you've taken as far as trying to conceptualize the dragon in a specific role, but worry that you're running in parallel with the paladin. In many respects, it is a better paladin dressed up in a dragon's body. 3/5.

    Balance: Some issues with specific abilities (Silver Will, Bahamut's Grace), potential shenanigans with alternate form (improved or otherwise) and with a little too much power at early levels. That said, I do think you're more or less on the right track if you're aiming for a tier 2-3 level. 3/5

    Flavor: It fits with what a silver dragon is. Nothing here, beyond the potential for a silver dragon to use an alternate form 24/7, that really jibes with the flavor or would make me raise an eyebrow if I saw a silver dragon use it in a game. 4.5/5

    Elegance: Several abilities missing details (such as what action type & range boon of bahamut is) and vagueness or potential misunderstandings in some areas (like Silver Ingenuity and domain. I think the Ex, Su, etc, should be bracketed as it makes reading the ability names a bit mucky, and there's the inconsistent Silver Dragon vs. silver dragon at points in the text. 2.5/5.

    Playability: It's actually pretty darn playable as is, which earns a thumbs up, but as mentioned just above, there's vagueness that would lead to DMs having to adjudicate how an ability works on the fly or causing potential misunderstandings and arguments. 3.5/5.
    I recommend Kyuubi contact me as changes are made - I have no problem adjusting my scores to reflect adjustments and fixes.

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    Default Re: Silver Dragon playable Class (3.5)

    From a flavor standpoint, not a huge fan of the flavor text provided above the class details. I recognize that disconnecting from the standard age = size category to class level = size category is a bit weird, but as is, it kind of jibes with the notion of playing a regular ol' silver dragon. I suggest letting people come up with their own explanations, or offering a few in the flavor text if need be.
    Okay, that works for me.
    Your attacks at level one are kind of overwhelming. As many as a common housecat! Only where the dreaded housecat has size bonuses, you've got full BAB and bigger damage die. So you're full attacking for a potential 24 damage at a point when most foes will have around 10 hp.
    Good point. I'll move the claw attacks up to a higher level.
    Alternate form may be abusable. I'd be hard pressed to name exactly how, but there's a distinct disconnect between CR and HD. I'm sure there's some animal/humanoid forms with low HD but potent racial bonuses/effects.
    I'm not sure what else to do, other than maybe restricting it to only humanoids.
    Draconic Roar - I would say that if you're halving the damage already, it would make more sense to just negate it if the surrounding foes make their Reflex save, as opposed to quartering it if they do.
    Okay.

    Just curious what your line of thinking was on the ability scores. They're kind of sporadic until a certain point, where they come in very consistently. What was the aim?
    these are the boosts the original has. I didn't really like the way they worked either but wasn't sure what to do.
    Silver Ingenuity should perhaps be "At level 4 the silver dragon gains 4 additional skill points, and gains 1 additional skill point for every HD it has after the first, and every HD it acquires thereafter." as the current wording of 'applied retroactively' can create awkward situations/vagueness.
    Yeah, good idea.

    Boon of Bahamut needs to state that it's a touch skill and a standard action.
    Domain - I'd suggest clarifying to "Chooses one domain from the following:"
    Domain - also, I'd clarify to "you do not get the granted power of any chosen domains." - as read, it could be interpreted as referring to the storm domain.
    All good catches.
    The paladin spellcasting is confusing. Is it retroactive? Maybe refer to it as "spellcasting of a paladin X levels lower than him?"
    It's not intended to be retroactive, no.
    Minor flavor issue with Improved Alternate Form - is there really any reason for a dragon to not just be in a special form 24/7 for the racial bonuses/features/abilities?
    I don't know. I'd assume though, that if you're going to be playing a Silver Dragon, you'd want to spend most of your time being a dragon, not a Fleshraker or something.
    Silver Will is a bit over the top for the level you get it. It's basically mind blank (an 8th level spell) at level 14.
    Good point.

    EDIT: Actually, since there aren't any mind affecting spells or abilities in the class anymore, it doesn't make sense anyway. I'll take it out and replace it with something else.
    Frightful presence - I'd suggest allowing the Silver Dragon to turn it off.
    Good point.
    Protective Aura - A +4 to all saves for all allies at level 16 is pretty major. This, if anything, should be a capstone.
    Same issue with Bahamut's Grace. Huge bonus to saves is huge (only here it's a potential +6 to +8)
    It's the same thing as Divine grace, except it grants a bonus to AC as well, and it comes 15 levels later. Maybe I just don't have as much expertise as I should with high level games, but I think you're overestimating how effective that's going to be.
    Lightning Breath - the range thing needs to be clarified. I can't fathom the intention.
    It was intended to be able to arc from opponent to opponent so it isn't just a bog standard lightning breath coming into play at a level as late as 19.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-05-31 at 02:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Silver Dragon playable Class (3.5)

    Overall, not bad, I can see this being a very satisfactory dragon, with some changes such as the ones I suggested.

    It's the same thing as Divine grace, except it grants a bonus to AC as well, and it comes 15 levels later. Maybe I just don't have as much expertise as I should with high level games, but I think you're overestimating how effective that's going to be.
    True, except I just realized that you have a +6 Charisma bonus from ability increases and you're far less MAD than an equivalent level paladin for much the same reason (ability increases) so you can afford to pump it some. Also, keep in mind you have SR, so a good # of spells are just going to fizzle against you, and then you're talking an ability granting you an easy +10 bonus on saves (of which you have two good ones) when you account for some extra gold spent on a charisma boosting item or ioun stone.

    I like that the class stays relevant due to the bonuses on saves, I think it's necessary for a dragonish feel, but I think it probably needs to be toned down.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2011-05-31 at 02:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Silver Dragon playable Class (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Overall, not bad, I can see this being a very satisfactory dragon, with some changes such as the ones I suggested.



    True, except I just realized that you have a +6 Charisma bonus from ability increases and you're far less MAD than an equivalent level paladin for much the same reason (ability increases) so you can afford to pump it some. Also, keep in mind you have SR, so a good # of spells are just going to fizzle against you, and then you're talking an ability granting you an easy +10 bonus on saves (of which you have two good ones) when you account for some extra gold spent on a charisma boosting item or ioun stone.
    Unless you're using a template and start with an 18, you're not going to get a +10 unless you invest almost everything in Charisma unless I'm missing something.

    18(base)+6(class)+5(Level boosts)+5(Inherent bonus from tome)+6(Item)

    So, yeah, I guess you could get a +10 bonus to saves and AC, but it requires a rather significant investment, and as far as I can tell, can only be done at level 20 without a template or something. Although I may be missing something. I could also drop the boosts down to like +4 because I don't think they need to be as high as they are anyway.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-05-31 at 02:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Silver Dragon playable Class (3.5)

    Ok, but getting away from an example of exaggeration, even a +7-8 to all saves for starting with a strong Cha score, getting the +6 from your race and spending a pittance on a moderate cost +cha item is pretty damned amazing. That's a 35-45% lower chance of being affected by a given spell effect, on top of the SR you're packing (and good saves in the two most important attributes).

    And you can get away with it because your class packs full BAB and +Str and more attacks in a full attack than an equivalent level fighter-type to keep your melee more than up to date and +Con to keep you durable (while also offering nat armor).

    So like I said, it just feels a bit much.

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    Default Re: Silver Dragon playable Class (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Ok, but getting away from an example of exaggeration, even a +7-8 to all saves for starting with a strong Cha score, getting the +6 from your race and spending a pittance on a moderate cost +cha item is pretty damned amazing. That's a 35-45% lower chance of being affected by a given spell effect, on top of the SR you're packing (and good saves in the two most important attributes).

    And you can get away with it because your class packs full BAB and +Str and more attacks in a full attack than an equivalent level fighter-type to
    keep your melee more than up to date and +Con to keep you durable (while also offering nat armor).

    So like I said, it just feels a bit much.
    Okay. If you're really sure about this, I'll bump that to 20 while leaving the aura at level 16. While I'm not too sure about Bahamut's grace, I'm almost positive that protective aura isn't as bad as you make it out to be. I'm also decreasing the stat boosts to +4 each since I don't think there's any particular reason they need to be as high as they were.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-06-01 at 09:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Okay, as this is important to the thread, I should have mentioned it before, and according to Roland here it's okay to double post in your own thread as long as you're adding pertinent information rather than bumping the thread, I'd like to bring something up.

    I'm trying to get nominations for the thread Here. You have to have critiqued the monster in the last two weeks to nominate it, but just saying what you like about the class qualifies.

    If you don't think the class is complete, by all means, mention why. I added a bunch of stuff in terms of fluff after looking at Draken's brain in a jar, and I've added the blizzard domain as an option if the group has Frostburn. I've also added a new thing called "Silver Speed" that I though was appropriate.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-06-08 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Now this is a pretty powerful homebrew. I think this is what I would expect of a Silver Dragon as they grow, and the paladin features make sense. Getting domain spells is good, as it makes it more than just a Fighter with scales.

    I'm not sure about allowing the dragon to 'turn off' frightful presence, as it's a part of being a Big Scary Dragon. Instead, I'd mention something about party members and allies being immune to that effect after working with the Silver Dragon for a certain amount of time. Character and enemies who successfully save against the Frightful Presence once are immune to that same Silver Dragon's Frightful Presence for X amount of time. Something like that.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurethius View Post
    Now this is a pretty powerful homebrew. I think this is what I would expect of a Silver Dragon as they grow, and the paladin features make sense. Getting domain spells is good, as it makes it more than just a Fighter with scales.

    I'm not sure about allowing the dragon to 'turn off' frightful presence, as it's a part of being a Big Scary Dragon. Instead, I'd mention something about party members and allies being immune to that effect after working with the Silver Dragon for a certain amount of time. Character and enemies who successfully save against the Frightful Presence once are immune to that same Silver Dragon's Frightful Presence for X amount of time. Something like that.
    Hmm. What amount of time seems like a good amount? Naturally if they've adventured with it for a decent period of time they'd be immune, but I don't know what a good period of time would be.

    As a side note, I'm still iffy about Paladin casting. I'd prefer to replace that with a slightly more flavorful ability. I had one in mind where things like blizzards, rainstorms and sandstorms don't impede the Silver Dragon's vision. That's sadly kind of a weak ability though, and I could probably add it to some level anyway and not have it be that overpowered or anything.

    I really hope the critique for every monster class I do is this thorough. Thanks a lot guys.

    However, I can't move on until this class is "Approved" And that requires 3 nominations in that thread, following the rating system they've got up apparently. Just to summarize, on a scale of 1-5, you rank playability, originality, Elegance, Flavor, and Balance.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-06-08 at 11:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    I don't think the 1-5 in four categories thing is actually required for nomination. Looking it over, it looks like the nomination method is "after you've given critiques, say 'hey, this thing looks pretty good, I nominate it'." Which is good, because mandating the 1-5 in four categories method would be pretty silly.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    I think it makes a lot of sense to have people keep to the five categories, even if it's not absolutely mandated. It ensures that you're not just getting throwaway critiques and that you get a sense of where the flaws are in your work.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I think it makes a lot of sense to have people keep to the five categories, even if it's not absolutely mandated. It ensures that you're not just getting throwaway critiques and that you get a sense of where the flaws are in your work.
    Yeah, exactly.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurethius View Post
    I'm not sure about allowing the dragon to 'turn off' frightful presence, as it's a part of being a Big Scary Dragon. Instead, I'd mention something about party members and allies being immune to that effect after working with the Silver Dragon for a certain amount of time. Character and enemies who successfully save against the Frightful Presence once are immune to that same Silver Dragon's Frightful Presence for X amount of time. Something like that.
    Have it only affect only evil, or more broadly nongood. Less scary than a normal dragon, but he's not a full-blown dragon. Heck, you could even write so that it only affects hostile creatures, not allies.
    I'd go with saving against it means you're immune to the presence for 24 hours.
    I think I've had enough for a while.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I think it makes a lot of sense to have people keep to the five categories, even if it's not absolutely mandated. It ensures that you're not just getting throwaway critiques and that you get a sense of where the flaws are in your work.
    Well, or that you get throwaway critiques padded with arbitrary meaningless numbers. But hey, don't let me kill the buzz.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Idea.

    A few other monster classes got an ability where they could eat magic items and gain their benefits. For example, in this case if a dragon ate a mithril fullplate, even if it wasn't built for it, it could gain the benefits of it while in either dragon or human form.

    This would also allow the dragon to enchant its natural weapons, although it would have to eat a weapon for each natural weapon it wanted an enchantment on. So it would have to eat three flaming weapons to get the flaming enchantment on its bite and claws, and would have to eat 3 adamantine weapons to get an adamantine bite/claws.

    There would also be the limitation that, while you could eat another item to remove the effects of a previous one, you don't get the previous item back. So, if you decided you wanted adamantine full plate instead of mithral, you don't get the mithral full plate back.

    Not sure whether this would be exceptionally prone to abuse, or a bad idea. I just think it makes sense for a dragon, and was curious whether it would work.

    The items would probably appear on their alternate form so that it made sense the alternate form got the benefits. The items still could not be sold.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soft Serve View Post
    Idea.

    A few other monster classes got an ability where they could eat magic items and gain their benefits. For example, in this case if a dragon ate a mithril fullplate, even if it wasn't built for it, it could gain the benefits of it while in either dragon or human form.

    This would also allow the dragon to enchant its natural weapons, although it would have to eat a weapon for each natural weapon it wanted an enchantment on. So it would have to eat three flaming weapons to get the flaming enchantment on its bite and claws, and would have to eat 3 adamantine weapons to get an adamantine bite/claws.

    There would also be the limitation that, while you could eat another item to remove the effects of a previous one, you don't get the previous item back. So, if you decided you wanted adamantine full plate instead of mithral, you don't get the mithral full plate back.

    Not sure whether this would be exceptionally prone to abuse, or a bad idea. I just think it makes sense for a dragon, and was curious whether it would work.

    The items would probably appear on their alternate form so that it made sense the alternate form got the benefits. The items still could not be sold.
    cool idea. there would have to be enhancement bonus limitations dependent upon class level. i'm not so keen on allowing material properties of the item to transfer over, like adamantine weapons and stuff. but if you do allow those, you might need to put level limitations on those too, depending on the kind of material.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    EDIT: What Draken in the post below me said.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-06-25 at 09:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    cool idea. there would have to be enhancement bonus limitations dependent upon class level. i'm not so keen on allowing material properties of the item to transfer over, like adamantine weapons and stuff. but if you do allow those, you might need to put level limitations on those too, depending on the kind of material.
    That sounds... Superfluous (level limitations of equipment absorbed). The equipment would be limited by the wealth by level after all.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    That sounds... Superfluous (level limitations of equipment absorbed). The equipment would be limited by the wealth by level after all.
    Maybe put in a note that the DM is allowed to restrict what you can get based on wealth by level? Such as not being allowed to have a +3 bite at level 5 since that would cost 18,000 and the wealth by level of level 5 isn't 18,000.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Isn't the ability based around cannibalizing magic items to benefit your own attacks? If you are in character creation you can't quite get a 18,000 gp item to cannibalize (you don't have the money) and if the DM sticks an enemy with a +3 weapon against your level 5 party...

    Well, it is your loot anyway.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Rather than cannibalizing magic items, why not have it be part of the Dragon's Hoard?

    Silver Dragon's Hoard: The Silver Dragon maintains a collection of material wealth and magic items, a sprawl of coin and trinkets that fills a cave or room. Wealth is power, and the Silver Dragon can turn this wealth into personal power. The Silver Dragon can act as though it were wearing a number of magic items with a value up to half of the amount in its hoard. Further, the Silver Dragon can treat itself as though it were wearing or wielding any specific magic item in its hoard. It must get a full night's rest in its hoard at least once a week to retain these benefits.

    Etc, etc.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Rather than cannibalizing magic items, why not have it be part of the Dragon's Hoard?

    Silver Dragon's Hoard: It must get a full night's rest in its hoard at least once a week to retain these benefits.
    That seems somewhat limiting. Especially if the dragon doesn't have a way to transport themselves back to their hoard short of walking/flying.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soft Serve View Post
    That seems somewhat limiting. Especially if the dragon doesn't have a way to transport themselves back to their hoard short of walking/flying.
    I very much agree. I did like it because I figured it was very flavorful and it expanded your options, but I had similar reservations. Just putting it out there for brainstorming, discussion and potentially to serve as the seed for another ability.

    Remember, unlike other monsters who got the 'eat magic item to gain its powers', the Silver Dragon is very much capable of picking up and using the majority of magic items. The hoard would just be an option.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I very much agree. I did like it because I figured it was very flavorful and it expanded your options, but I had similar reservations. Just putting it out there for brainstorming, discussion and potentially to serve as the seed for another ability.

    Remember, unlike other monsters who got the 'eat magic item to gain its powers', the Silver Dragon is very much capable of picking up and using the majority of magic items. The hoard would just be an option.
    True, but also remember that the dragon has to divide its resources between what is can use in human form and what it can use in dragon form.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soft Serve View Post
    True, but also remember that the dragon has to divide its resources between what is can use in human form and what it can use in dragon form.
    Does it? Items resize to fit the wearer and the dragon isn't so reliant on having appropriate sizes or types of magically enhanced weapons on hand for each form.

    What kind of differences in items for different forms are you expecting?
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2011-06-26 at 01:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Armor resises, but it doesn't reshape (unless it is Wild or Beasthide armor), dragon and human form would likely need different weapons as well (sword/axe/whatever vs Jaws of the Dragon/Claws of the Ripper, see Draconomicon).

    Amulets, boots, gauntlets, bracers, etc... I do believe one source book lists dragons having a couple of different item slots, but I can't find it right now. Probably somewhere in draconomicon.

    it is probably best to give the hoard attunement simply the fitting body slots limitations and be done with it. No real need to add dozens of limitations to something that is ultimately governed by WBL.
    Last edited by Draken; 2011-06-26 at 02:47 PM.
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