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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Does it? Items resize to fit the wearer and the dragon isn't so reliant on having appropriate sizes or types of magically enhanced weapons on hand for each form.
    Well for one, armor wouldn't change to fit the shape of the dragon. The dragon also needs to put some investment in its natural weapons if it wants them to be able to keep up. I'd expect a player to want to at least have decently enchanted magic weapons in their dragon form too. Lets say +3 worth of enhancement per weapon, and adamantine on each one. That's going to cost 126,000 GP. Plus, certain items like gloves or boots would have to be specifically shaped for the dragon.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    So I may be overlooking something obvious, but why not have equipment from human form meld into the dragon form and continue granting its magical bonuses? (Perhaps with restrictions on what slots are available to dragon form, perhaps not.) Even resizing and reshaping equipment runs into the problem that a dragon with a cape and a crown looks kind of silly in ways that a human or elf doesn't.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    So I may be overlooking something obvious, but why not have equipment from human form meld into the dragon form and continue granting its magical bonuses? (Perhaps with restrictions on what slots are available to dragon form, perhaps not.) Even resizing and reshaping equipment runs into the problem that a dragon with a cape and a crown looks kind of Awesome in ways that a human or elf doesn't.
    Fixed that for you.

    Personally, the image of a dragon with a crown and a cape looks awesome to me.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-06-26 at 05:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    It doesn't say "iconic dragon" to me. If PC silver dragons are all wearing capes and hats and vests and belts, logically all dragons should be running around wearing them.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    I'm inclined to agree with Benly.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    So I may be overlooking something obvious, but why not have equipment from human form meld into the dragon form and continue granting its magical bonuses? (Perhaps with restrictions on what slots are available to dragon form, perhaps not.) Even resizing and reshaping equipment runs into the problem that a dragon with a cape and a crown looks kind of silly in ways that a human or elf doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soft Serve View Post
    Fixed that for you.

    Personally, the image of a dragon with a crown and a cape looks awesome to me.
    I have a PC right now that does this. It's been my avatar for a while (I've reverted back to my old one because of SMBGs temporarily). It does look kind of silly, though. Also as per the Draconomicon dragons can use gloves and boots designed for humans, although they do have draconic versions of items for every body slot (mine mainly uses the human versions because he's more concerned with looking silly in his human persona).

    I will say that I don't like the idea of playing a dragon that eats magic items. Dragons are hoarders, and it goes against being a dragon to devour items.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    I have a PC right now that does this. It's been my avatar for a while (I've reverted back to my old one because of SMBGs temporarily). It does look kind of silly, though. Also as per the Draconomicon dragons can use gloves and boots designed for humans, although they do have draconic versions of items for every body slot (mine mainly uses the human versions because he's more concerned with looking silly in his human persona).

    I will say that I don't like the idea of playing a dragon that eats magic items. Dragons are hoarders, and it goes against being a dragon to devour items.
    True.

    Okay, so, you retain the bonuses from magic items other than weapons as long as the item in question was either wielded by you in human form, or is currently in your hoard. Does that work?
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soft Serve View Post
    Okay, so, you retain the bonuses from magic items other than weapons as long as the item in question was either wielded by you in human form, or is currently in your hoard. Does that work?
    Mainly I'm wondering "why not weapons"? Is there a particular reason not to let the character have, say, a +3 sword in human form that transfers its +3 to her claws in dragon form?

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    Mainly I'm wondering "why not weapons"? Is there a particular reason not to let the character have, say, a +3 sword in human form that transfers its +3 to her claws in dragon form?
    Because I'm unsure how to balance that. I guess one natural weapon gaining the benefits would be fine, but that just seems odd to me, and I don't think the weapon boosting all of its natural weapons seems fair.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soft Serve View Post
    Because I'm unsure how to balance that. I guess one natural weapon gaining the benefits would be fine, but that just seems odd to me, and I don't think the weapon boosting all of its natural weapons seems fair.
    Well, it's possible to carry at least two weapons reasonably. Let one boost the bite and the second boost the claws, maybe. I'm not sure it's necessary for them to boost every natural attack at once.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    Well, it's possible to carry at least two weapons reasonably. Let one boost the bite and the second boost the claws, maybe. I'm not sure it's necessary for them to boost every natural attack at once.
    Maybe not, but I know that I personally would like to be able to boost all of my attacks if I were playing a Silver Dragon.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soft Serve View Post
    Maybe not, but I know that I personally would like to be able to boost all of my attacks if I were playing a Silver Dragon.
    Well, at that point it's cheaper to do it with a Necklace Of Natural Attacks. My understanding is that part of the concern was that a dragon's player would feel like they needed to have functionally two full kits of equipment to be functional in dragon and human form. What I was going for with that suggestion was to let the dragon retain the benefit of equipment in both forms; enhancing all the natural attacks at once is focusing wealth into the dragon form anyway so a Necklace Of Natural Attacks works fine for that.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    Well, at that point it's cheaper to do it with a Necklace Of Natural Attacks.
    You can't get enchantments or special materials on your natural weapons with that.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    I would recommend not letting the weapons transfer over to natural weapons, it sort of takes away the purpose of items such as the amulet of mighty fists, necklace of natural weapons, jaws of the dragon and claws of the ripper.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    I would recommend not letting the weapons transfer over to natural weapons, it sort of takes away the purpose of items such as the amulet of mighty fists, necklace of natural weapons, jaws of the dragon and claws of the ripper.
    Okay. Other than that, put in alternate form that the rest of the stuff transfers over? Or improved alternate form?
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    i actually really like hyudra's hoard idea; i've always struggled with the idea of a good dragon's desire to hoard treasure (hence my substantial use of VoP with good dragons), so the idea that they actually gain power from it is insanely cool and gives volumes of support for what is otherwise kind of nonsensical to me.

    also, about the earlier comment of letting wealth by level determine things, i don't think that is a good point to balance by. primarily because different DMs run games with different wealth by level ratios, and in some campaigns it will have too much for what i think is appropriate, and in others, too little.

    i think it is just as appropriate to put level limitations on what kind of inherent enchantments and bonuses the dragon can imbue itself with as it is to limit the same effects on a kensai or soulblade.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Okay, I was talking to a playgrounder, and she said that the dragon should end up having a +8 bonus to strength, not +4, and that it should have a bigger amount of natural armor. Personally, I at least agree with her on the natural armor, and kind of see her point on the strength being higher. what do you guys think about that?
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Well they can wear barding so they get +Con higher AC than normal already (although unless they dip a full armor class they're limited to chain shirt), but I might say +1 with each size increase.

    As for Strength, I'd have to go closer for a thing based on balance, but I'd say greater strength sounds appropriate fluff-wise.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Well they can wear barding so they get +Con higher AC than normal already (although unless they dip a full armor class they're limited to chain shirt), but I might say +1 with each size increase.
    They can't even wear chain shirt barding if they don't find some way to get light armor proficiency. Which, yeah they can do, but it can get kind of expensive.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soft Serve View Post
    They can't even wear chain shirt barding if they don't find some way to get light armor proficiency. Which, yeah they can do, but it can get kind of expensive.
    Mithril, cost gets high there (something like 8000 GP for a huge dragon), there's also an enhancement in MiC that reduces ACP by another 1.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Well they can wear barding so they get +Con higher AC than normal already (although unless they dip a full armor class they're limited to chain shirt), but I might say +1 with each size increase.
    On the other hand, relying on barding brings you back to "your dragon has to be wearing a shirt to be effective". I dunno, if I were to decide "I want to play a dragon" I don't generally have a chain shirt on that mental image.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Mithril, cost gets high there (something like 8000 GP for a huge dragon), there's also an enhancement in MiC that reduces ACP by another 1.
    Magic items resize to fit the wearer. So the only extra cost for such is for unusual body shape.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    On the other hand, relying on barding brings you back to "your dragon has to be wearing a shirt to be effective". I dunno, if I were to decide "I want to play a dragon" I don't generally have a chain shirt on that mental image.
    Problem is once you build it assuming people will play nice things break down. Armor also doesn't look silly (unlike other items).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Magic items resize to fit the wearer. So the only extra cost for such is for unusual body shape.
    DMG says clothing and jewelry resizes. Weapons don't (sizing quality), and armor is specified as being sized in the following paragraph in the DMG.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Problem is once you build it assuming people will play nice things break down. Armor also doesn't look silly (unlike other items).
    If you want to give it some teeth, you could have the scales provide a certain amount of armor bonus in addition to their NA bonus, thus not stacking with normal armor unless the player wants to go out of her way to get heavy enough armor to override the inherent armor bonus.

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    If you want to give it some teeth, you could have the scales provide a certain amount of armor bonus in addition to their NA bonus, thus not stacking with normal armor unless the player wants to go out of her way to get heavy enough armor to override the inherent armor bonus.
    Now that I think is a good suggestion (strangely enough harkens back to 2e where natural armor and armor didn't stack, but if you had a natural AC better than that your armor provided it improved your AC by 1).
    Last edited by Zaydos; 2011-06-28 at 09:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    So, what amount of armor bonus?
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    I'd say make it scaling and eventually be +4 armor and a +5 enhancement bonus to its armor (such as from wearing magic armor) or make enhancement bonuses of magic armor worn in human form apply in dragon form. Actually you could just make it so whatever armor they're wearing in human form carries over as part of their scales in dragon form.

    This leaves it (till epic levels and gargantuan size) with an AC of Con higher than a character proficient in and wearing light armor, and Con -4 higher than one with heavy armor. At high levels this means it should have something like +5 to +9 above a light armor character with the same Dex investment, and +1 to +5 above a heavy armor character assuming no Dex investment (this assumes Item of Con +6). These are fairly good numbers.

    Note the first suggestion (with enhancement boni) effectively saves them 26100 GP on a +5 mithril chainshirt.
    Last edited by Zaydos; 2011-06-28 at 09:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    I think that allowing the equipment to 'carry over' between forms once the dragon hits Improved Alternate Form at level 9 would probably be the simplest solution, myself.

    Although, then it does seem to come a little late... Would something like that be considered overpowered at level 1? Tibbits already get a similar, if weaker, ability, and since this is both a class and a race at the same time...

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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Delivery Ninja View Post
    I think that allowing the equipment to 'carry over' between forms once the dragon hits Improved Alternate Form at level 9 would probably be the simplest solution, myself.

    Although, then it does seem to come a little late... Would something like that be considered overpowered at level 1? Tibbits already get a similar, if weaker, ability, and since this is both a class and a race at the same time...
    The thing is, I'm also working on other dragons who don't get alternate form, so I'd like a method that work for all of them.
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    Default Re: Kyuubi's Kompendium of Kreature Klasses. (3.5)

    Ah, I see. Good to know you've got more dragons lined up, since I really like what you've done with the Silver one thus far. ^_^

    As far as the progression on some sort of inherent armor ability goes, your best bet for coming up with one would probably be to look at pre-existing abilities for clues on how to handle it. The Ancestral Relic feat from Book of Exalted Deeds, for example, might be a good model to base it off of.

    I also think you've got a good flavor option for it in the fact that D&D dragons are known for embedding things in their hide. Rather than sacrificing items and gold by eating them or keeping them in a hoard somewhere, it wedges them between its scales and gets an extra layer of magical protection in the bargain. Sort of a 'treasure hoard on the go', as it were.

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