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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by AThousandWords View Post
    Because lots of people that see StLR think "Hey, if there is one for TMA, there should be one for CMA." Sort of like Autochthonian-element DBs, or an Exalt type that can Attune to Adamant.
    Technically I'm doing both of these.
    Although one is a joke project.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Remember those Snapple Elements?
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    White Wolf needs to get dealing with Dr. Pepper. I want some delicious, delicious Martial Arts fruity beverages. Solar Hero, Infernal Monster, Righteous Devil, Obsidian Shards of Infinity...omnomnom

  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Yeah, there need to be more RPG sodas. Though jones did some DnD ones for a while I know.
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    My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.

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    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
    Leiningen will win, even if he must lose in the attempt.

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  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    So, Snake Style is one of the okay Celestial Martial Arts, but it has its share of problems. I'd say that Striking Cobra Technique, Snake Form, Striking Serpent Speed are all pretty good. The others...not so much. Uncoiling Serpent Prana, is probably stuck where it is in mediocrity, as increasing range seems to be one of those difficult things. But the others all seem like they could be fixed in some way. So, what does the playground thing of the following(changes/additions are in red, Italics are my thoughts/reasonings, such as they are);

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    Serpentine Evasion
    This Charm gives the character +[Essence/3+1] rounded up Dodge or Parry DV against a single attack.

    Major problem with the charm is that it doesn't seem to scale, and this fix takes care of that. Not quite sure if it's enough,


    Essence Fangs and Scales Technique
    Whenever an exalt activates Snake Form, he may activate this charm as well as an innate ability, costing 6 motes. The resulting action is Speed 6, Dv -2


    Armor Penetrating Fang Strike
    Cost: 3 motes(+1 motes, +1 wp)
    For 3 motes, this charm makes the attack piercing. For an additional 1 mote and 1 willpower, the attack ignores soak from armor, and halves natural soak.

    The mote cost for this one isn't the real problem, but +1 willpower is a huge cost, for relatively little gain. This change hopes to make the charm more attractive for common usage, while still having a powerful attack option available if you have the resources to spend.


    Snake Strikes the Heel

    The counter attack's pool is equal to Martial arts+Dexterity+[the number of threshold successes]

    Evey 3 successes on the counter attack subtract 1 level of damage from those that would be dealt to the Exalt.


    First off, a counter attack at a bit less than half your normal pool isn't the best idea. This fixes the pool, while at the same time reducing it's likely lethal consequences.

    Essence Venom Strike
    Even if the attack misses, it throws off the opponent. Unless successfully defended by a charm carrying a flaw of invulnerability, the opponent takes a -1 external penalty to all actions and DV's for [essence] Ticks. This effect cannot stack with itself; repeated applications to the same target simply override the Duration.

    For 7 motes and 1 willpower, you should be getting a bit more bang, don't you think?
    Last edited by Tavar; 2011-06-02 at 10:14 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #396
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    RE: Kyeudo's Szoreny Charms

    I love these. I can see a great Infernal Copycat made from some of those charms and Ebon Dragon ones
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    So, Snake Style is one of the okay Celestial Martial Arts, but it has its share of problems.
    Snake Style is actually quite good. Probably the best balanced of the CMAs until you get to the later stuff like Infernal Monster and Thousand Wounds Gear. It goes nicely with a lot of the native Charmsets, and the Form is very, very good (Speed 3 means you won't get killed when you throw it up).

    Does have some problems though.

    Uncoiling Serpent Prana, is probably stuck where it is in mediocrity, as increasing range seems to be one of those difficult things
    This is not one of them, though. Remember the ToS match you just ran? Range is a huuuuuuuuuuge advantage.

    Serpentine Evasion
    Major problem with the charm is that it doesn't seem to scale, and this fix takes care of that. Not quite sure if it's enough,
    Sounds good.

    Essence Fangs and Scales Technique
    Whenever an exalt activates Snake Form, he may activate this charm as well as an innate ability, costing 6 motes. The resulting action is Speed 6, Dv -2
    EFaST doesn't really need an upgrade, and this one is pretty much worthless. Snake Form is good because you can throw it up extremely fast and it provides good baseline benefits. If you have the time to activate a Speed 6 Form, you have the time to put up the Form and then do EFaST normally.

    Armor Penetrating Fang Strike
    Cost: 3 motes(+1 motes, +1 wp)
    For 3 motes, this charm makes the attack piercing. For an additional 1 mote and 1 willpower, the attack ignores soak from armor, and halves natural soak.
    The mote cost for this one isn't the real problem, but +1 willpower is a huge cost, for relatively little gain. This change hopes to make the charm more attractive for common usage, while still having a powerful attack option available if you have the resources to spend.
    You seem to be underestimating how good ignoring armor is. The 3m function is almost useless, because why would you use it when you have EFaST? Also, remember, this is a CMA charm. Halving natural soak in addition to ignoring armor is too good.

    Snake Strikes the Heel

    The counter attack's pool is equal to Martial arts+Dexterity+[the number of threshold successes]

    Evey 3 successes on the counter attack subtract 1 level of damage from those that would be dealt to the Exalt.


    First off, a counter attack at a bit less than half your normal pool isn't the best idea. This fixes the pool, while at the same time reducing it's likely lethal consequences.
    Again, too good for a CMA. SStH is good as it is.

    Essence Venom Strike
    EVS is fine as it is. It provides a fast, powerful attack, and you can build some nasty Combos with it.

    EDIT: Oh, yes, and speaking of MAs, I've been trying to rewrite Lunar Hero Style. I'm kind of curious what people would like LHS to be, if it was perfect and flawless and shiny and representative of Lunars as they should be.
    Last edited by Mr.Bookworm; 2011-06-02 at 10:27 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    EDIT: Oh, yes, and speaking of MAs, I've been trying to rewrite Lunar Hero Style. I'm kind of curious what people would like LHS to be, if it was perfect and flawless and shiny and representative of Lunars as they should be.
    Hmm. It should have knacks in it.

    I'd envision three parallel thematic paths in the style - an acrobatic, dexterity-themed group of charms that involve getting to your enemy, a ferocity-themed group of charms reminiscent of much of the extant charms that involve ripping your enemy's head off once you get there, and a shapeshifting-themed group of knacks that, sorry Eclipses, only Lunars can use.

  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    EFaST doesn't really need an upgrade, and this one is pretty much worthless. Snake Form is good because you can throw it up extremely fast and it provides good baseline benefits. If you have the time to activate a Speed 6 Form, you have the time to put up the Form and then do EFaST normally.
    Except, EFaST is speed 5. So, putting them both up is more risky than putting up a normal Form charm, only made worse because EFaST isn't combo-ok or combo-basic. That's very risky. This way, there is a way to get them both up, but it is somewhat disadvantageous.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    You seem to be underestimating how good ignoring armor is. The 3m function is almost useless, because why would you use it when you have EFaST? Also, remember, this is a CMA charm. Halving natural soak in addition to ignoring armor is too good.
    Because EFaST is a speed 5, dv -1 charm that's no combo keyword? Unlike the Form charm. So, putting it up gives you the same problems that putting up a form charm normally does.

    You're right about the charm then being too good, but as it stands the charm is pretty bad. It's too expensive, and because it's supplemental using it in a combo is very risky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    Again, too good for a CMA. SStH is good as it is.
    What? How are you supposed to hit with a pool of (Martial Arts+Threshold Successes) Let's say your Martial Arts 5 and they rolled 3 successes. That's a pool of 8 dice. That's not going to hit, period. So, why should I use this charm, instead of, say, a perfect defense?

    Plus, remember, the attack has to hit, which is a huge limitation, given that being hit is generally the last thing you want to have happen to a character.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    EVS is fine as it is. It provides a fast, powerful attack, and you can build some nasty Combos with it.
    The speed's okay, yes. But it's extremely expensive (7m, 1wp). Yes, it ignores natural soak, which is a nice boon, and it even adds a tiny bit of damage. But with the cost, that's not enough. At least, given the ease of defense against such abilities it's not.

    Again, you asked me to remember the ToS battle, which was a good point. Now you should do the same. Remember that death combo? Essence Venom Strike and Amor-Penetrating Fang Strike suffer from the same problem. If they're in a combo, each and every action you take in the combo must be augmented by both. For some charms, that's okay, but these charms cost 1 wp each, and the former is pretty expensive on it's own. Even not combo'd together, the charms are horrendously expensive, given that they cost willpower to use.

    Yes, they're powerful, but they're also attacks, and in exalted defenses are easier to boost. Thus, if they're going to be attacks and expensive, then they need either a boost that makes them worthwhile to use, or a reduction in cost(possibly with a similar reduction in power). As it stands, they're pretty much a flashy way to kill a opponent in a bod position, or a good way to kill yourself.
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  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    Hmm. It should have knacks in it.
    Er.

    Martial arts styles can't have knacks.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Personally, I'd wait to fix it until the Lunar Errata is released, which should give a more definite example of what a Lunar combat style should look like in the first place.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    1. Maul them to death.
    2. Profit from corpses.

  13. - Top - End - #403
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by AThousandWords View Post
    1. Maul them to death.
    2. Profit from corpses.
    That's solar hero style; Lunar should be different in some way.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Er.

    Martial arts styles can't have knacks.
    Maybe ones that aren't about being an awesome Lunar.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    I suppose Knacks could be used as extensions of the style only usable for Lunars, like how Snake Body Technique and the like work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    I suppose Knacks could be used as extensions of the style only usable for Lunars, like how Snake Body Technique and the like work.
    Well, by definition any knack in the Lunar Hero Style would work like that. The question is, should the Lunar Hero Style be a martial art that is by necessity contingent on having the power of Lunar shapeshifting in order to make it work?

    If so, then a knack should be a prerequisite for the form charm and/or capstone.

    If not, then knacks can form a Lunar-only suppliment to the style.

    I think that a martial arts style that exemplifies Lunars should be one that requires the ability to change form and specifically integrates that into a martial arts structure.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Except, EFaST is speed 5. So, putting them both up is more risky than putting up a normal Form charm, only made worse because EFaST isn't combo-ok or combo-basic. That's very risky. This way, there is a way to get them both up, but it is somewhat disadvantageous.
    Yes. But you're not going to throw up EFaST in a combat situation, you're going to do it as pre-fight buff, precisely because it's a non-Comboable Speed 5 action. You can throw up Snake Form during combat, due to how fast it is. Trying to do the same with a Speed 6 Form is going to get you killed.

    You're right about the charm then being too good, but as it stands the charm is pretty bad. It's too expensive, and because it's supplemental using it in a combo is very risky.
    It's expensive because it's very good.

    What? How are you supposed to hit with a pool of (Martial Arts+Threshold Successes) Let's say your Martial Arts 5 and they rolled 3 successes. That's a pool of 8 dice. That's not going to hit, period. So, why should I use this charm, instead of, say, a perfect defense?
    Essence 3 Solar swinging a grand daiklave. Dex 5, Melee 5, specialty in Bigass Swords 3, 6m committed to Infinite Melee Mastery with the 1st Melee Excellency. Let's say he's trying to really murder you, so he pays 7m to add 10 dice. He's swinging a dice pool of 25. *rolls*

    13 successes, which is about average. Let's say you have a Dodge DV of 5, so 8 bonus successes. You're swinging a dice pool of 13 at his face as a counterattack, which is good for a CMA Charm.

    Now let's say you're a Solar, and you've built yourself for synergy with Snake Style.

    Melee!Solar: RAAAAAARGH SMASH
    Snake!Solar: *voluntarily lowers defense*, Adamant Skin Technique+Snake Strikes the Heel
    Snake!Solar: *trollface*

    tl;dr: It goes with native Charms very nicely, provides a last-ditch screw you to your opponent, and scales pretty well.

    The speed's okay, yes. But it's extremely expensive (7m, 1wp). Yes, it ignores natural soak, which is a nice boon, and it even adds a tiny bit of damage. But with the cost, that's not enough. At least, given the ease of defense against such abilities it's not.
    Yes, they're powerful, but they're also attacks, and in exalted defenses are easier to boost. Thus, if they're going to be attacks and expensive, then they need either a boost that makes them worthwhile to use, or a reduction in cost(possibly with a similar reduction in power). As it stands, they're pretty much a flashy way to kill a opponent in a bod position, or a good way to kill yourself.[/QUOTE]

    Hm. True.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    That's solar hero style; Lunar should be different in some way.
    Maul to death as an animal, then.

    I really think a Lunar Hero Style should be about attacking in as many different ways as possible, in keeping with themes of change and fluidity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    Snake!Solar: *trollface*
    C'mon man, it's coolface.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Well, my current draft looks a lot more like Infernal Monster then Solar Hero. It's about being an unstoppable god-beast and murdering things very, very violently, since that's what you want when you're fistfighting a Primordial. There are then expansion Charms that get into other Lunar themes like fluidity and change (my current goal is trying to jigger it so you could, with 5 Charms at the start, build an effective character with Lunar Hero alone).

    ...and increasingly violent ways of killing things, of course, up-to-and-including cities.

    Quote Originally Posted by AThousandWords
    C'mon man, it's coolface.
    Last edited by Mr.Bookworm; 2011-06-02 at 02:26 PM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    Well, by definition any knack in the Lunar Hero Style would work like that. The question is, should the Lunar Hero Style be a martial art that is by necessity contingent on having the power of Lunar shapeshifting in order to make it work?

    If so, then a knack should be a prerequisite for the form charm and/or capstone.

    If not, then knacks can form a Lunar-only suppliment to the style.

    I think that a martial arts style that exemplifies Lunars should be one that requires the ability to change form and specifically integrates that into a martial arts structure.
    The thing with hero styles is that other people are meant to be able to learn them.

    And only Lunars can learn knacks.

    It'd be like making Throne Shadow Style require dots in Colleges. Or Solar Hero Style requiring Solar Circle Sorcery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Also, not really how Knacks work in general.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by AThousandWords View Post
    Maul to death as an animal, then..
    No. Bad AThousandWords. Lunar's are not Werewolf: The Forsaken, no matter how much the original writers wanted it to be. Lunar style needs to encompass their theme in some way, but that theme should in no way be 'like an animal'.

    @Bookworm, or anyone else following the style revision: putting it in spoilers to prevent wall o' texts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    Yes. But you're not going to throw up EFaST in a combat situation, you're going to do it as pre-fight buff, precisely because it's a non-Comboable Speed 5 action. You can throw up Snake Form during combat, due to how fast it is. Trying to do the same with a Speed 6 Form is going to get you killed.
    Since form type charms are now Combo-basic, you actually can get Speed 6 form charms up pretty reliably. Plus, I don't know. I've been in combats where you haven't had any time to get scene lengths up, where you've had time to get them all up, and times where you can get one or so up, but sitting around for long enough is going to get you killed.

    I guess the charm's fine, but considering that is doesn't allow armor any more(contrary to designer intent, apparently), it just feels that the charm is really needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    It's expensive because it's very good.
    Problem is, like the pinnacle charm, it's too expensive. I mean, yeah, well cooked fillet mignon is excellent. It's also not worth 50 dollars and ounce. Personally, if you're spending willpower on a combat charm(not on a combo, but on a charm), I my mind it needs to satisfy one of x conditions. Note that charms that satisfy these don't have to have a willpower cost, as all charms that fill the general themes aren't equal.

    1. Be a perfect defense with duration longer than instant
    2. Be a perfect attack.
    3. Both be capable of ending the fight if it hits, and have some effect if it doesn't.
    4. Have a duration longer than 1 action/be an extra action charm
    5. Have a massive, game changing effect on the battlefield.


    Both of these charms do neither, and that's why I feel they need to be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    Essence 3 Solar swinging a grand daiklave. Dex 5, Melee 5, specialty in Bigass Swords 3, 6m committed to Infinite Melee Mastery with the 1st Melee Excellency. Let's say he's trying to really murder you, so he pays 7m to add 10 dice. He's swinging a dice pool of 25. *rolls*

    13 successes, which is about average. Let's say you have a Dodge DV of 5, so 8 bonus successes. You're swinging a dice pool of 13 at his face as a counterattack, which is good for a CMA Charm.
    And, against your attack, his DV is (5+5+3+1)/2=7+3 dice, more if he wants to blow a bit on more dice from his First Excellency. True, it's -1 for the attack, but that's still 6+3 dice, so about 7.5 total. Pre-stunt, charms, or anything else. Compared to your average of 6.5.

    Plus, in my experience, it's much more common to have 1-4 threshold successes, not 8. Partially due to having DV's that actually can stop things(a DV of 5? That better have been after a massive attack flurry or something), and the fact that dv's are easier to increase.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    Now let's say you're a Solar, and you've built yourself for synergy with Snake Style.

    Melee!Solar: RAAAAAARGH SMASH
    Snake!Solar: *voluntarily lowers defense*, Adamant Skin Technique+Snake Strikes the Heel
    Snake!Solar: *trollface*

    tl;dr: It goes with native Charms very nicely, provides a last-ditch screw you to your opponent, and scales pretty well.
    So, combo'd with Solar Level charms, the CMA charms are decent. Yes, that's totally good design.

    In my opinion, no charm should automatically need to be in a combo to work, and should be judged in conjunction with other charms on it's level, in this case meaning Celestial Level charmsets. Which, you'll note, lack a perfect soak.


    Also, about the second charm; would it break things to make it Essence/2, rounded up?
    Last edited by Tavar; 2011-06-02 at 03:08 PM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Like a Boss?
    Werewolf: the Corporation?

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    This would all be a lot easier if they'd just give us a Lunar Redemption mechanic.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    What? Redemption only applies to Abyssals in game. What would their be to redeem Lunars?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Let me throw down some Exalted Canon up in this, and so on.

    In the beginning, there were Primordials. And they were awesome. And then, an unimportant amount of time later, the Unconquered Sun had all these Exaltations that he got from somewhere not significant to this story. He infused them with the strength and power to eventually learn how to use necromancy, and to sparkle in the sunlight. For whatever reason, they also had in them some kind of ability to have their "polarity" switched that no other Exaltation seems to have, and as far as the Exalted universe is concerned, flipping the Asshat Exaltation to the opposite polarity gets you the Death Exaltation. Because Gold and Black are opposites or something.

    Fearing the implications of this, Luna took some of these Solar Exaltations and flipped the polarity sideways, from Gold to Silver, to complete the trifecta of Asshat/Death/Furry, Gold/Black/Silver. And lo, as the Black Exaltations were the exact same as the Gold Exaltations, but more limited in scope for some reason, so too were the Silver Exaltations the exact same but less cool.

    And that is the origin of Lunars.

  27. - Top - End - #417
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    ...
    what is this i don't even....
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  28. - Top - End - #418
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Any lunar charm alternatives out there for a fellow who wants a breath weapon and isn't satisfied by Cobra Eye Method? Or am I going to have to homebrew some charms?

    I was looking for something a little more "Wyld" feeling and which would be useable as a primary ranged attack.

    Edit: Wait, WHAT?!

    Xefas, have you been keeping up on your meds?
    Last edited by golentan; 2011-06-02 at 06:09 PM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Uh.

    Okay.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    And that is the origin of Lunars.


    Quote Originally Posted by golentan
    Any lunar charm alternatives out there for a fellow who wants a breath weapon and isn't satisfied by Cobra Eye Method? Or am I going to have to homebrew some charms?
    Get homebrewing.

    Or take that one mutation that gives you a breath weapon. Though that wouldn't work too well as a primary attack.
    Last edited by Mr.Bookworm; 2011-06-02 at 06:09 PM.
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