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2011-06-03, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-03, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
its not all that clear that, thats whats going on.
however whatever they are they do fit under the category "gods".
Incarnae are in general not just gods, in the same way as every other god is, for instance their Geas are built into them, and not a result of Unquestionable Yozi Authority.
yep, however if not for Luna Gaia could very well have left with all of her bodies, which Cythera didn't want to happen
I agree with you on hero stylesRemember: Hope springs eternal. The dark days will pass and the sun will shine again.
The best way to learn something is to ask, so ask without shame.
Many thanks to smuchmuch for the awesome Ponytar.
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2011-06-03, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-03, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-03, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
You had the misfortune to have me need to leave for a plane in the middle to responding to your responses.
So, here's some responses:
Spoiler
1st Excellency
"However, he values conformity and seeks to impose his values on others."
"He poisons his foes, either physically or by slowly cutting off their social and mental resources."
These two lines feel like She Who Lives In Her Name and Kimbery, respectively, not Szoreny.
And, yes, he shares some ideals with SWLIHN when it comes to conformity. Szoreny just doesn't hate that they have free will, he just wants to make them him.
More minor: "He turns seeming failures into successes." You probably want to rewrite that line or change the emphasis, since that reads as if you could apply the Excellency to every single action ever.
To be blunt, yes, yes he totally should get sidelined. It's not "Malfeas can't be subtle except when he has to be and then it's fine" it's "Malfeas can't be subtle, fullstop". An Excellency encourages you to act like the Yozi by placing hard restrictions on the sort of actions you can enhance with it.
Besides this, it doesn't sideline them, it just prevents them from using the Excellency. And Yozi Excellencies are pretty much designed for stunting. You can't enhance "I punch him in the face" with a Szoreny Excellency, but you can enhance "I carefully lead him into a position where he's vulnerable, and then strike".
Seeds of Victory Prana
This is too good, methinks.
"Kill my rival."
You get into a fight with your rival, and attack him four times. You now have those four automatic successes on every single attack roll for free, without a Charm activation, until you actually hit the guy.
Mirrored Meaning Confusion
This probably needs either the Shaping keyword or a UMI tag
Meeting Mirror Deflection
This should be 4m, in line with other perfect parries. Also should be: "This is a perfect parry that blocks even unblockable attacks."
The Imperfection is cool. Don't mind the way it interacts with Szoreny himself. Most of the Yozis have Imperfections that interact weirdly with themselves.
I was thinking about adding a Szoreny Charm to let him pretend to have dots in an Ability so long as someone to copy is within sight. Not only would it come in handy for infernals, but fix Szoreny's problem with his own Imperfection. Thoughts?
Mirror-Strike Counter
Should just be "Reflexive (Step 2)". You declare it then, even if it provides a counterattack.
Not sure about the balance on this one. Will think on it more.
Mirror-Hall Misdirection
You probably need to spell out exactly what you can do with the duplicates.
Lost in Reflection
You should be able to spend Willpower to temporarily ignore the effect.
Mirror-Maze Navigation
"Mirror, mirror, on the wall, find me the deadliest weapon of them all."
This probably needs a bit of modification so it can only finds things the character knows about. Or something similar.
Your restriction does have merit through.
Freed From the Mirror
Uh. This is kind of broken. Have a soulbreaker orb? Now you have two soulbreaker orbs!
Really shouldn't work on artifacts. Not to mention how it interacts with disposables.
Wake the Mirror
Again, broken. Duplicating Artifacts is hideously powerful. Also, giving it the same statistics as the original is probably too good.
One Tree Forest
The Infernal deattunes from all of his artifacts, and uses this Charm. His duplicate picks them up, attunes, and now the Infernal goes off to sit in a bunker while his duplicate runs around, because he is now more or less immortal.
Broken.
Unyielding Argent Bark
I'm kind of leery of having two Ox-Bodies in the same Charmset.
Silver Sworn Bond
It's cool, but I'm not seeing what this has to do with Szorney in a thematic sense.
Transcendent Toxin Internalization
Alright mechanically, I think. I would say it needs to have some sort of drawback or odd change to the Infernal, though, because that's what Infernal permanents are about.
I'd also say that it shouldn't provide flat mechanical immunity, because Infernal Charms don't do that. They tend to have riders or costs.
Bitter Medicine
Hmmmmm. Could be potent, but I think it's fine.
What happens, though, when you combine this with Broken Mirror Mending? This Charm's duration is probably shorter then it takes to heal a Crippling injury. If someone's arm gets chopped off and they start regrowing it through this, when the duration runs out, do they just have a half-formed arm, or what?
Rooted In Reality
Infernals don't have IPP for a reason, because that's not how their Charm design works. You can have a Shaping defense, but it needs to be something weird, not just flat-out immunity as long as you commit the motes.
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Silver Branch Immunity
Everyone within 45 feet of you (minimum) gets IPP for free? This is probably overpowered.
In the Master's Image
Cool. Why Integrity, though?
False Truth Reflection
...why Larceny? Seems kind of odd.
Mirror-Madness Malediction
Um. Good, but I'm not sure if it's overpowered. It shouldn't be permanent for Exalted, though (perhaps inflicting Limit?).
Sorcerous Enlightenment of Szoreny
Fine, I think. Don't like the duplication of another Yozi's flaw, though. Make something thematically unique.
Still waiting on that Shintai.
Stick it behind New Growth Meditation? That seems appropriate.
This Charm is also flatly better then RoFD, since you can use it with any sort of attack, not just Archery attacks.
This is broken as all get-out. Kill it with fire.
There is a Charm in Infernals that literally does that exact thing, sooooooo.
Last edited by Kyeudo; 2011-06-06 at 07:08 PM.
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2011-06-03, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
So, question regarding charms, specifically Martial art charms, but it applies to others as well. Should charms mostly stand on their own?
Here and on the White Wolf Forums, I've been looking at Snake Style, and one of my problems comes up with Snake Strikes the Heel. Normally, I just can't really see [Martial Arts+threshold Successes] hitting, plus to use it you have to let an attack through.
Now, it's been pointed out that Snake Strikes the Heel+Adamant Skin Technique or the like is a potent combo, as you simply don't declare a DV, and get all their successes as dice, but to me it speaks volumes that they only way to make the charm useful is either a suicide attack, or taking advantage of the perfect system.
Another thing that bothers me is that you can't use the style itself to do this. You have to go to other charm tree's. Shouldn't a Martial Art be entirely usable solely with it's own charms+excellencies?He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2011-06-03, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
a Style, should be usable by itself, however synergy with other charms are a good thing, both because balance has to consider everything, and because it would (theoretically) allow a style to be more powerful if a solar use it than if a db does. This is a good thing as it would allow several people to be MAist without it either being a one true build or a stupid options for one of them.
Remember: Hope springs eternal. The dark days will pass and the sun will shine again.
The best way to learn something is to ask, so ask without shame.
Many thanks to smuchmuch for the awesome Ponytar.
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2011-06-03, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Oh, I totally agree that using it with charms from outside the style should make it better. But, Snake Strikes the Heel doesn't work better when using charms from outside the style. It simply starts to work, period.
That's not good design, in my mind.He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2011-06-03, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Man. I'm listening to Knights of Cydonia.. If I knew anything at all about charm design, I would be all over making a martial arts style with the Sutra based on Knights of Cydonia.
Lines like "Don't waste your time, or time will waste you"
"No one's gonna take me alive"
Things like that could turn into awesome charms.Originally Posted by Grifter, character in game I'm GMing
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2011-06-03, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Snake Strikes the Heel's problem is more being a victim of the Lethality Effect than anything else.
Last edited by tonberrian; 2011-06-03 at 12:21 PM.
The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.
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2011-06-03, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Snake Strikes the Heel seems to me to be more designed for fighting opponents who don't wield grand killsticks and the like. I don't think the person who designed that charm realised just how bad getting hit is.
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2011-06-03, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Even then, letting someone hit you, hoping that they get many successes, while you're unarmored? That's plain idiotic. Either they don't roll many success, in which case you may survive and be undamaged enough that you don't just lose, but at the same time you'll lack the dice needed to penetrate their DV, or they roll many, in which case while you'll probably be able to penetrate their DV, they'll probably end up killing you as well. Or you use a perfect soak, but that requires both a combo and extensive investment in charms outside of the style.
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2011-06-03, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Charms don't do Lunar shapeshifting.
Knacks aren't knacks because they aren't attacks. They're knacks because they involve shapeshifting. They're a special category of Native charm-like ability that, in fact, likely exists because it predates the concept of the Native charm in the Exalted ruleset.
An attack that involved shapeshifting would not be a Charm. It would be a Knack, because it involved shapeshifting and should not be learnable by the likes of Eclipse castes, regardless of what it did mechanically with that shapeshifting.
If the hero styles were defined by the ability of other beings to learn the style, rather than the presence of an innate style, then Alchemicals would have one, because there are iconic Alchemical styles that other types of Exalt can learn.
But the book says there's no Alchemical hero style because there is no martial arts charmset that comes naturally to the Alchemicals, not for any other reason.
And given that the cascade would follow fairly unique rules regarding shapechanging as a martial weapon, it'd already follow fairly distinct rules more appropriate for a martial arts style than for "a particular cascade of dexterity charms", even if it's limited to beings that can shapeshift.
In general, I'd say it would depend on the intent of the martial artist who designed the style. It'd be easy enough for a martial artist to design a style to synergize better in specific situations, and that shouldn't be forbidden.
That said, that's probably not the intent of Snake Style, or else it'd have more interesting fluff.
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2011-06-03, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
I think that someone thought that solars (or anybody) could naturally tank hits passively very well. It's something I think a lot of people expect from the system when they're first looking at it. Alchemicals, surprisingly, have two different ways to passively survive fatal hits, but I don't think anyone else does.
The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.
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2011-06-03, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Probably true. Still, that bring up the question of how to actually fix it.
Also, Hatewheel just leaked a Lunar overdrive charm;
Sleeping Dragon Awakens
Cost: —; Mins: Perception 4, Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Native, Overdrive, Stackable
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Watchful Spider Stance
Woe to those who would impugn the Lunar’s lair, for in her heart sleeps a rage for the fallen Age. This Charm grants an empty Overdrive pool with a capacity of ten motes. Filling this pool requires that the character be inside her territory with the prerequisite Charm activated. Once per scene, when the Lunar detects an unwelcome presence in her territory, she gains six offensive motes. As a Lunar’s territory may be vast, Luna’s Chosen have adapted this Charm to circumvent standard limitations. As long as the Lunar and her unwanted guest both remain in the territory, the motes gained from this Charm carry over to the next scene, whereby, if the Lunar continues to detect an alien presence in her territory, she may stack the benefits of this Charm a second time. If the Lunar’s offensive capacity is insufficient, her protean Essence expands to encompass the overflow, temporarily raising her offensive pool’s capacity. For example, if her Overdrive pool has a ten mote capacity, in the second scene of activation it would expand to 12, then 18 for a third scene, and so on.
The Lunar’s offensive pool returns to its default capacity in the following scene if the invaders die or leave the Lunar’s territory, or if the Lunar is Incapacitated or leaves the territory herself. If the scene ends and no further threats to the Lunar are detected within her territory, the Lunar’s offensive pool resets to zero motes. Note that this Charm does not function to give the Lunar motes against threats which she has no intention of removing. The Lunar must conceive of the targets as a threat to her territory such that their continued presence would threaten her life or revoke her metaphysical ownership of the region.
A Lunar’s Overdrive pool, expanded over multiple scenes by use of this Charm, has an ultimate capacity of 50 motes.He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2011-06-03, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
No, Hero Styles are a Martial Art to imitate an Exalt type's instinctive expression of Martial Combat, just like Tiger style is a Martial Art to imitate the way a Tiger fights. Exalts find it easier to learn their own Hero Style simply because it is easier to imitate yourself than other people. The instinctive expression of Martial Combat comes in the expansion Charms for the Exalt type, and I don't see a huge problem with having Knack expansions to the style (other than the clunkiness of having Knacks with Charms as prerequisites).
Also, Martial Arts styles should not require the innate abilities of those they imitate. Lunar Hero Style should no more require shapeshifting than Tiger Style should require claws and a tail. Martial Arts is about fighting along a set of themes, using whatever the style imitates as an icon to help you focus on those themes. Some sort of Cat Style could teach you how to fight with the themes of surprise, stealth, and grace, using a Cat as a focus to help you think along those lines. Likewise, Lunar Hero Style should teach you how to fight along the themes of adaptability, protection/stewardship, being a predator, and survival of the fittest, using Lunars as a model.
Remember that Lunars are not just 'the shapeshifting Exalt', and likewise, their Hero Style should not be focused around shapeshifting, and instead be about their thematics.
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2011-06-03, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
I'm not a 2nd Edition expert (I've read and have access to a lot of the books through friends, but never got a chance to play), but I played a fair amount of 1st Edition as a Snake Style-using martial artist (campaign lasted about 2 years of at least weekly play - I used Snake Style because when we started playing that was the only available martial arts style). The charm text for SStH between editions is comparable. Our group never devolved into paranoia combat, but our ST was very adept at building combat scenarios in the sweet spot of challenging but manageable.
Getting hit was not the end of the world, although it usually took a few rounds to get my defenses up (but since it operated in rounds instead of the later "tick" system, I rarely had severe issues because of that). More to the point, my job was generally to keep opposition members busy while the Dawn was addressing the major threat.
So, since the game was playable in the non-one-shot mindset, and the charm text is largely copy-pasted into the new edition which seems to be more likely to be perfect-or-die (from what I've seen here), that might be the source of the problem.
A thought occurs. MA forms often have weapons that are appropriate - Tiger Claws for Tiger Style, for example - they're not compulsory, they're just ways to enhance the (normally) unarmed attacks the style allows.
How about, if not Knacks that have the Style charms as prereqs, maybe the charms have an additional effect if the Lunar has certain Knacks already? Like a synergy bonus or something. I've never really dealt with Lunars from a player's perspective (and never as 2nd Edition) so just let me know if that's kind of how things work already or if it's stupid or something.Last edited by WalkingTarget; 2011-06-03 at 03:31 PM.
Take your best shot, everyone else does.
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2011-06-03, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
As just a matter of general opinion, which tends to better complement SWLiHN telekinesis/reality warping charms, Ebon Dragon or Cecelyne charms (as favored yozi for a defiler who specializes in telekinesis)
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2011-06-03, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
It really matters what you're trying to do. If you're focusing on telekinesis as a combat tool, then I'd lean towards the Ebon Dragon. MHM is already ludicrously accurate, at the cost of low damage. Ebon Dragon has Life Blighting Emptiness, which can add (Willpower) lethal piercing damage to it (and by the gods, if you're doing Swillin+EB, your Willpower better be 10), which can be further augmented by later EB charms.
Cecelyne, on the other hand, doesn't have much in the way of augmenting other attacks - her combat options mostly entail her environmental sand attack stuff. Although, if you fancy fighting like a poltergeist, Soul-Sand Devil Shintai and Stone-Flayer Touch can do that for you.
I'll also point out that, if you're typically bad at coming up with stunts, Principle Invoking Onslaught + Selfishness is Power makes getting 2-3 die stunts trivial. Just say anything, and be an ass about it.
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2011-06-03, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Let's look at the categories of Knacks as presented in MoEP:Lunars.
Form Acquisition
Shapeshifting Refinement
Shapeshifting Speed
War Form
None of these are related to in-combat actions. Form Acquisition lets you get new forms. Refinement lets you change them. Speed lets you do it faster. War Form lets you become something that can then attack, but isn't an attack in and of itself.
I have no problem with Native shapeshifting attack Charms (goodbye, Eclipse problem) that branch off LHS, but that's not what 1. Knacks are and 2. Hero Styles are.
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2011-06-03, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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2011-06-03, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
So, I've been designing some Solar charms, and I was hoping I could get some feedback on my train of logic for this one. See if everything matches up coherently.
Alright,
1a. Humans eat food.
1b. The human body metabolizes food into energy.
2a. The human brain functions via transmitting information in the form of electrical and chemical signaling between neurons.
2b. The human body converts energy metabolized from food to produce these electrical signals.
3a. Solars have a theme of being "Human-to-the-Max".
3b. Solars should have a charm whereby they eat food and then discharge lightning out of their face. (i.e. "Burritos-as-Lightning-Bolts Methodology")
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2011-06-03, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Maybe make it a dodging/parrying charm that has a similar effect? Basically making scaling your DV up have no effect on the attack, and making it so that it no longer has to hit. Now, it's a stylized counterattack charm.
But Exalts don't just find it easier. They find it instinctive. Martial arts styles normally need a trainer because they are not instinctive like most charms are, but the Hero styles are instinctive for their Exalt types, even before you get to any expansions.
The style could have both shapeshifting and other themes. It's just that the shapeshifting would be a theme that restricts it.
Irrelevant.
It is what Knacks are, mechanically - they are a mechanically crude form of native charm.
A previously noted implementation could easily be that the charms of the style simply have additional effects for Lunars, functioning as hybrid Charm/Knacks of which only Lunars can access the power of the latter.
But personally, I think Lunars should actually have something special that they can do and nobody else can in terms of martial combat, and mechanically that's pretty much limited to shapeshifting.
It would be workable, and it's one of the possible implementations for the style I described earlier.
Originally Posted by Indon
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2011-06-03, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-03, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Hero Styles can be emulated by other people, but that's not what they are. What they are is the innate martial arts tree of their respective Exalt type. The fact that hero styles can be emulated stems from the fact that no Exalt type has such a broad category of de facto Native abilities - the only other Exalt type that comes close to having that feature doesn't have a Hero style.
That said, cross-Exaltation use of hero styles seems a lot more popular than I thought, at least judging from the thread.
I suppose the best compromise would be to provide additional benefits to Lunar Hero Style charms based on the ability to use Knacks. That way, Lunars both get to use their signature power in their signature style, and other martial artists can still emulate everything else about it.
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2011-06-03, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Hmm... I have had a rather vague and possibly terrible idea for a custom artifact. I was playing God Hand, and idly wondered if the titular arm could be statted out as a high-rating artifact. What I came up with was a 5-dot prosthetic that enhances your natural attacks, and more importantly, gives the user access to a unique MA with the arm as a form weapon. So my main question is... is it a completely terrible idea to have an artifact grant access to charms that cannot be gained without it? Or more generally: Is it at least reasonable to need to pay xp to fully unlock an artifact's capabilities?
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2011-06-03, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
Take your best shot, everyone else does.
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SpoilerMy original avatar and much better ones by groundhog22 and a Winter Olympics one by Rae Artemi.
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2011-06-03, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
If you limit it to people who can shapechange, then you might as well not call it a martial art. There's no mechanical difference between calling it Lunar Hero style or just a native Dexterity charm cascade, since Lunars buy Lunar Hero as Dexterity charms, and nobody else can use it.
The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.
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2011-06-03, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
That's another possibility, but I think the dual-purpose charm setup would be more graceful.
So, the artifact counts as a tutor for the charms in its' style? I think that's entirely reasonable, and frankly not even a 5-dot benefit unless it does something crazy like initiate you to a higher martial arts level to be able to use the style.
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2011-06-03, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants
So I was reading through the book that has details on the Fair Folk, and I was curious. How do they stack up against Exalts (as in, are they Terrestrial-level power, or Celestial, that kinda thing)?