General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

[Kris Strife]

Which doesn't really take into account that Gaia has more than one body. You'd think the Primordials, of all people, would remember that they can be in more than one place at once.

Can't Luna be in multiple places too?

[vegetalss4]

Yes but we know precisely what the Maidens are too (Gods, created by the Primordials). They just weren't created in this timeline.

its not all that clear that, thats whats going on.
however whatever they are they do fit under the category "gods".
Incarnae are in general not just gods, in the same way as every other god is, for instance their Geas are built into them, and not a result of Unquestionable Yozi Authority.

Which doesn't really take into account that Gaia has more than one body. You'd think the Primordials, of all people, would remember that they can be in more than one place at once.

yep, however if not for Luna Gaia could very well have left with all of her bodies, which Cythera didn't want to happen
I agree with you on hero styles

[Qaera]

It's an inherent ability that improves a Lunar's shapeshifting abilities. Not all are passive, either, some give you the straight-up ability to spend motes for an effect that relates to shapeshifting (a good example is Monkey Arm Style).

No, there is no, "Use a knack to generate an immediate in-combat effect" combat category for knacks. Making one and tying it in to Lunar martial arts is what I'm talking about.

There is no category for that because that's not what Knacks are supposed to do. That's Charm territory. If you want an immediate in-combat effect, use a charm.

[Yuki Akuma]

They aren't formalized martial arts in the sense that any other martial arts are. They're the martial arts charm tree (Dexterity charm tree for Lunars) for the Exalt type in question, innate to that exalt type in precisely the way all the other charms are innate to them, that has a section that may be formalized as a traditional martial arts tree and taught to others.

There's no guarantee there.

If it wasn't learnable by others, it wouldn't be a hero style. They would just be a particular cascade of Dexterity charms!

[Kyeudo]

...I don't get any love?

You had the misfortune to have me need to leave for a plane in the middle to responding to your responses.

So, here's some responses:

Spoiler

Show

1st Excellency

"However, he values conformity and seeks to impose his values on others."

"He poisons his foes, either physically or by slowly cutting off their social and mental resources."

These two lines feel like She Who Lives In Her Name and Kimbery, respectively, not Szoreny.

The Yozis have alot of overlaps to them. Isidoros and Malfeas are both strong, tough, and blunter than a hammer. Szoreny and the Ebon Dragon both have imitation in their portfolio (Szoreny through mirrors and ED through shadows). Kimbery is an ocean of acidic poison, Szoreny is a forest with toxic quicksilver for sap. He's going to have some overlap in the poison department.

And, yes, he shares some ideals with SWLIHN when it comes to conformity. Szoreny just doesn't hate that they have free will, he just wants to make them him.

More minor: "He turns seeming failures into successes." You probably want to rewrite that line or change the emphasis, since that reads as if you could apply the Excellency to every single action ever.

I want to encourage stunts like "With his opponent's blade now trapped in the flesh of his arm, the Infernal strikes at his now defenseless opponent. Just as planned." How would you change the emphasis to make it less broad and still keep the right intent?

To be blunt, yes, yes he totally should get sidelined. It's not "Malfeas can't be subtle except when he has to be and then it's fine" it's "Malfeas can't be subtle, fullstop". An Excellency encourages you to act like the Yozi by placing hard restrictions on the sort of actions you can enhance with it.

Besides this, it doesn't sideline them, it just prevents them from using the Excellency. And Yozi Excellencies are pretty much designed for stunting. You can't enhance "I punch him in the face" with a Szoreny Excellency, but you can enhance "I carefully lead him into a position where he's vulnerable, and then strike".

That very stunt is the sort of thing that I left the "unless necessary" clause in to allow. It's sudden and direct instead of carefully considered and indirect, but it is necessary to fufill the Infernal's plans.

Seeds of Victory Prana

This is too good, methinks.

"Kill my rival."

You get into a fight with your rival, and attack him four times. You now have those four automatic successes on every single attack roll for free, without a Charm activation, until you actually hit the guy.

Sounds like a cost problem. 5m is, looking back, way too cheap for what it does. How about something like 15m, 2wp?

Mirrored Meaning Confusion

This probably needs either the Shaping keyword or a UMI tag

It has the Illusion tag.

Meeting Mirror Deflection

This should be 4m, in line with other perfect parries. Also should be: "This is a perfect parry that blocks even unblockable attacks."

The Imperfection is cool. Don't mind the way it interacts with Szoreny himself. Most of the Yozis have Imperfections that interact weirdly with themselves.

Good points.

I was thinking about adding a Szoreny Charm to let him pretend to have dots in an Ability so long as someone to copy is within sight. Not only would it come in handy for infernals, but fix Szoreny's problem with his own Imperfection. Thoughts?

Mirror-Strike Counter

Should just be "Reflexive (Step 2)". You declare it then, even if it provides a counterattack.

Not sure about the balance on this one. Will think on it more.

I'm definately going to drop the "Combo-Ok" keyword from it. That will keep it from being part of a kill combo, to counterbalance it being able to duplicate someone else's kill combo.

Mirror-Hall Misdirection

You probably need to spell out exactly what you can do with the duplicates.

Good point. I was thinking that you should be able to have them move, dodge attacks, and that was about it. As illusions, they can't do anything real, though they could pretend to do something. I probably should add something about them shattering if anything passes through them. Were you thinking of any other issues?

Lost in Reflection

You should be able to spend Willpower to temporarily ignore the effect.

You can. See the second-to-last paragraph.

Mirror-Maze Navigation

"Mirror, mirror, on the wall, find me the deadliest weapon of them all."

This probably needs a bit of modification so it can only finds things the character knows about. Or something similar.

That would lead you straight to the doors of the Imperial Manse.

Your restriction does have merit through.

Freed From the Mirror

Uh. This is kind of broken. Have a soulbreaker orb? Now you have two soulbreaker orbs!

Really shouldn't work on artifacts. Not to mention how it interacts with disposables.

How about "Artifacts duplicated by this Charm have the statistics of their closest mundane counterparts. If the artifact has no mundane counterpart, the duplicate is inopperable."?

Wake the Mirror

Again, broken. Duplicating Artifacts is hideously powerful. Also, giving it the same statistics as the original is probably too good.

How about "The duplicate's Abilities and Attributes are either the original's trait values or the Infernal's Essence, whichever is lower."

One Tree Forest

The Infernal deattunes from all of his artifacts, and uses this Charm. His duplicate picks them up, attunes, and now the Infernal goes off to sit in a bunker while his duplicate runs around, because he is now more or less immortal.

Broken.

Both of the character is the original. Still, your point is made. Perhaps have the Infernal lose a dot of permanent Essence if the copy dies, much like Immortal Malevolence Enslavement?

Unyielding Argent Bark

I'm kind of leery of having two Ox-Bodies in the same Charmset.

You only get one purchase of Unyielding Argent Bark and alot of the later Charms have 1lhl as part of the cost. I figured some extra health levels were necessary.

Silver Sworn Bond

It's cool, but I'm not seeing what this has to do with Szorney in a thematic sense.

IIRC, the write-up on Szoreny as a forest in CoCD: Malfeas mentions that the creatures that live within the forest are in Szoreny's thrall. Also, Infernals lack a "Get a Familiar" Charm and I couldn't think of a better Yozi to have it.

Transcendent Toxin Internalization

Alright mechanically, I think. I would say it needs to have some sort of drawback or odd change to the Infernal, though, because that's what Infernal permanents are about.

I'd also say that it shouldn't provide flat mechanical immunity, because Infernal Charms don't do that. They tend to have riders or costs.

Well, what would you suggest?

Bitter Medicine

Hmmmmm. Could be potent, but I think it's fine.

What happens, though, when you combine this with Broken Mirror Mending? This Charm's duration is probably shorter then it takes to heal a Crippling injury. If someone's arm gets chopped off and they start regrowing it through this, when the duration runs out, do they just have a half-formed arm, or what?

You'd definately need multiple doses from the Infernal to get better. As for if you end up with a half-grown arm, that's more a Storyteller's call.

Rooted In Reality

Infernals don't have IPP for a reason, because that's not how their Charm design works. You can have a Shaping defense, but it needs to be something weird, not just flat-out immunity as long as you commit the motes.

---

Silver Branch Immunity

Everyone within 45 feet of you (minimum) gets IPP for free? This is probably overpowered.

I was trying to come up with a power to represent Szoreny's stabilizing influence, mentioned in CoCD: Malfeas. Apparently it's too potent, but I can't think of anything that is both lesser and useful.

In the Master's Image

Cool. Why Integrity, though?

Integrity is about being yourself. What ability could possible be better suited to making someone else be yourself?

False Truth Reflection

...why Larceny? Seems kind of odd.

Larceny is the ability for disquises and sleight of hand. Szoreny's precursor Charms extend that to illusions. Since the Charms just makes an illusion practically real, Larceny stays the ability to use.

Mirror-Madness Malediction

Um. Good, but I'm not sure if it's overpowered. It shouldn't be permanent for Exalted, though (perhaps inflicting Limit?).

Perhaps an option for the Exalted to take some amount of Limit instead of the derrangement?

Sorcerous Enlightenment of Szoreny

Fine, I think. Don't like the duplication of another Yozi's flaw, though. Make something thematically unique.

It's mechanically a different flaw, IIRC, and it suits Szoreny. He doesn't like to go all "Fire and Brimstone, Locusts and Sandstorms" on people.

Still waiting on that Shintai.

This was written before every Yozi Charm set had a Shintai. I'd need to read Broken Wing Crane to get some ideas of what has already been done before I see if anything would suit the Silver Forest.

Stick it behind New Growth Meditation? That seems appropriate.

A Charm about language-transcending messages branching off a Charm about healing crippled limbs. I don't see the connection.

This Charm is also flatly better then RoFD, since you can use it with any sort of attack, not just Archery attacks.

It still doesn't give you more actions, so it's type isn't Extra-Action. You do make a good arguement for it being more expensive though.

This is broken as all get-out. Kill it with fire.

Why? With no Charms to spend it on, I don't see the problem with leaving supernatural traits intact.

There is a Charm in Infernals that literally does that exact thing, sooooooo.

Which one?

[Tavar]

So, question regarding charms, specifically Martial art charms, but it applies to others as well. Should charms mostly stand on their own?

Here and on the White Wolf Forums, I've been looking at Snake Style, and one of my problems comes up with Snake Strikes the Heel. Normally, I just can't really see [Martial Arts+threshold Successes] hitting, plus to use it you have to let an attack through.

Now, it's been pointed out that Snake Strikes the Heel+Adamant Skin Technique or the like is a potent combo, as you simply don't declare a DV, and get all their successes as dice, but to me it speaks volumes that they only way to make the charm useful is either a suicide attack, or taking advantage of the perfect system.

Another thing that bothers me is that you can't use the style itself to do this. You have to go to other charm tree's. Shouldn't a Martial Art be entirely usable solely with it's own charms+excellencies?

[vegetalss4]

So, question regarding charms, specifically Martial art charms, but it applies to others as well. Should charms mostly stand on their own?

Here and on the White Wolf Forums, I've been looking at Snake Style, and one of my problems comes up with Snake Strikes the Heel. Normally, I just can't really see [Martial Arts+threshold Successes] hitting, plus to use it you have to let an attack through.

Now, it's been pointed out that Snake Strikes the Heel+Adamant Skin Technique or the like is a potent combo, as you simply don't declare a DV, and get all their successes as dice, but to me it speaks volumes that they only way to make the charm useful is either a suicide attack, or taking advantage of the perfect system.

Another thing that bothers me is that you can't use the style itself to do this. You have to go to other charm tree's. Shouldn't a Martial Art be entirely usable solely with it's own charms+excellencies?

a Style, should be usable by itself, however synergy with other charms are a good thing, both because balance has to consider everything, and because it would (theoretically) allow a style to be more powerful if a solar use it than if a db does. This is a good thing as it would allow several people to be MAist without it either being a one true build or a stupid options for one of them.

[Tavar]

Oh, I totally agree that using it with charms from outside the style should make it better. But, Snake Strikes the Heel doesn't work better when using charms from outside the style. It simply starts to work, period.

That's not good design, in my mind.

[DragonSinged]

Man. I'm listening to Knights of Cydonia.. If I knew anything at all about charm design, I would be all over making a martial arts style with the Sutra based on Knights of Cydonia.
Lines like "Don't waste your time, or time will waste you"
"No one's gonna take me alive"
Things like that could turn into awesome charms.

[tonberrian]

Snake Strikes the Heel's problem is more being a victim of the Lethality Effect than anything else.

[Yuki Akuma]

Snake Strikes the Heel seems to me to be more designed for fighting opponents who don't wield grand killsticks and the like. I don't think the person who designed that charm realised just how bad getting hit is.

[Tavar]

Even then, letting someone hit you, hoping that they get many successes, while you're unarmored? That's plain idiotic. Either they don't roll many success, in which case you may survive and be undamaged enough that you don't just lose, but at the same time you'll lack the dice needed to penetrate their DV, or they roll many, in which case while you'll probably be able to penetrate their DV, they'll probably end up killing you as well. Or you use a perfect soak, but that requires both a combo and extensive investment in charms outside of the style.

[Indon]

There is no category for that because that's not what Knacks are supposed to do. That's Charm territory. If you want an immediate in-combat effect, use a charm.

Charms don't do Lunar shapeshifting.

Knacks aren't knacks because they aren't attacks. They're knacks because they involve shapeshifting. They're a special category of Native charm-like ability that, in fact, likely exists because it predates the concept of the Native charm in the Exalted ruleset.

An attack that involved shapeshifting would not be a Charm. It would be a Knack, because it involved shapeshifting and should not be learnable by the likes of Eclipse castes, regardless of what it did mechanically with that shapeshifting.

If it wasn't learnable by others, it wouldn't be a hero style. They would just be a particular cascade of Dexterity charms!

If the hero styles were defined by the ability of other beings to learn the style, rather than the presence of an innate style, then Alchemicals would have one, because there are iconic Alchemical styles that other types of Exalt can learn.

But the book says there's no Alchemical hero style because there is no martial arts charmset that comes naturally to the Alchemicals, not for any other reason.

And given that the cascade would follow fairly unique rules regarding shapechanging as a martial weapon, it'd already follow fairly distinct rules more appropriate for a martial arts style than for "a particular cascade of dexterity charms", even if it's limited to beings that can shapeshift.

Another thing that bothers me is that you can't use the style itself to do this. You have to go to other charm tree's. Shouldn't a Martial Art be entirely usable solely with it's own charms+excellencies?

In general, I'd say it would depend on the intent of the martial artist who designed the style. It'd be easy enough for a martial artist to design a style to synergize better in specific situations, and that shouldn't be forbidden.

That said, that's probably not the intent of Snake Style, or else it'd have more interesting fluff.

[tonberrian]

Even then, letting someone hit you, hoping that they get many successes, while you're unarmored? That's plain idiotic. Either they don't roll many success, in which case you may survive and be undamaged enough that you don't just lose, but at the same time you'll lack the dice needed to penetrate their DV, or they roll many, in which case while you'll probably be able to penetrate their DV, they'll probably end up killing you as well. Or you use a perfect soak, but that requires both a combo and extensive investment in charms outside of the style.

I think that someone thought that solars (or anybody) could naturally tank hits passively very well. It's something I think a lot of people expect from the system when they're first looking at it. Alchemicals, surprisingly, have two different ways to passively survive fatal hits, but I don't think anyone else does.

[Tavar]

Probably true. Still, that bring up the question of how to actually fix it.

Also, Hatewheel just leaked a Lunar overdrive charm;

Sleeping Dragon Awakens
Cost: —; Mins: Perception 4, Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Native, Overdrive, Stackable
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Watchful Spider Stance

Woe to those who would impugn the Lunar’s lair, for in her heart sleeps a rage for the fallen Age. This Charm grants an empty Overdrive pool with a capacity of ten motes. Filling this pool requires that the character be inside her territory with the prerequisite Charm activated. Once per scene, when the Lunar detects an unwelcome presence in her territory, she gains six offensive motes. As a Lunar’s territory may be vast, Luna’s Chosen have adapted this Charm to circumvent standard limitations. As long as the Lunar and her unwanted guest both remain in the territory, the motes gained from this Charm carry over to the next scene, whereby, if the Lunar continues to detect an alien presence in her territory, she may stack the benefits of this Charm a second time. If the Lunar’s offensive capacity is insufficient, her protean Essence expands to encompass the overflow, temporarily raising her offensive pool’s capacity. For example, if her Overdrive pool has a ten mote capacity, in the second scene of activation it would expand to 12, then 18 for a third scene, and so on.

The Lunar’s offensive pool returns to its default capacity in the following scene if the invaders die or leave the Lunar’s territory, or if the Lunar is Incapacitated or leaves the territory herself. If the scene ends and no further threats to the Lunar are detected within her territory, the Lunar’s offensive pool resets to zero motes. Note that this Charm does not function to give the Lunar motes against threats which she has no intention of removing. The Lunar must conceive of the targets as a threat to her territory such that their continued presence would threaten her life or revoke her metaphysical ownership of the region.

A Lunar’s Overdrive pool, expanded over multiple scenes by use of this Charm, has an ultimate capacity of 50 motes.

[IcarusWings]

Maybe out of character, but in-character, hero styles are meant to be an Exalt type's instinctive expression of martial combat.

No, Hero Styles are a Martial Art to imitate an Exalt type's instinctive expression of Martial Combat, just like Tiger style is a Martial Art to imitate the way a Tiger fights. Exalts find it easier to learn their own Hero Style simply because it is easier to imitate yourself than other people. The instinctive expression of Martial Combat comes in the expansion Charms for the Exalt type, and I don't see a huge problem with having Knack expansions to the style (other than the clunkiness of having Knacks with Charms as prerequisites).

Also, Martial Arts styles should not require the innate abilities of those they imitate. Lunar Hero Style should no more require shapeshifting than Tiger Style should require claws and a tail. Martial Arts is about fighting along a set of themes, using whatever the style imitates as an icon to help you focus on those themes. Some sort of Cat Style could teach you how to fight with the themes of surprise, stealth, and grace, using a Cat as a focus to help you think along those lines. Likewise, Lunar Hero Style should teach you how to fight along the themes of adaptability, protection/stewardship, being a predator, and survival of the fittest, using Lunars as a model.

Remember that Lunars are not just 'the shapeshifting Exalt', and likewise, their Hero Style should not be focused around shapeshifting, and instead be about their thematics.

[WalkingTarget]

I think that someone thought that solars (or anybody) could naturally tank hits passively very well. It's something I think a lot of people expect from the system when they're first looking at it. Alchemicals, surprisingly, have two different ways to passively survive fatal hits, but I don't think anyone else does.

I'm not a 2nd Edition expert (I've read and have access to a lot of the books through friends, but never got a chance to play), but I played a fair amount of 1st Edition as a Snake Style-using martial artist (campaign lasted about 2 years of at least weekly play - I used Snake Style because when we started playing that was the only available martial arts style). The charm text for SStH between editions is comparable. Our group never devolved into paranoia combat, but our ST was very adept at building combat scenarios in the sweet spot of challenging but manageable.

Getting hit was not the end of the world, although it usually took a few rounds to get my defenses up (but since it operated in rounds instead of the later "tick" system, I rarely had severe issues because of that). More to the point, my job was generally to keep opposition members busy while the Dawn was addressing the major threat.

So, since the game was playable in the non-one-shot mindset, and the charm text is largely copy-pasted into the new edition which seems to be more likely to be perfect-or-die (from what I've seen here), that might be the source of the problem.

Also, Martial Arts styles should not require the innate abilities of those they imitate. Lunar Hero Style should no more require shapeshifting than Tiger Style should require claws and a tail.

A thought occurs. MA forms often have weapons that are appropriate - Tiger Claws for Tiger Style, for example - they're not compulsory, they're just ways to enhance the (normally) unarmed attacks the style allows.

How about, if not Knacks that have the Style charms as prereqs, maybe the charms have an additional effect if the Lunar has certain Knacks already? Like a synergy bonus or something. I've never really dealt with Lunars from a player's perspective (and never as 2nd Edition) so just let me know if that's kind of how things work already or if it's stupid or something.

[masterjoda99]

As just a matter of general opinion, which tends to better complement SWLiHN telekinesis/reality warping charms, Ebon Dragon or Cecelyne charms (as favored yozi for a defiler who specializes in telekinesis)

[Xefas]

As just a matter of general opinion, which tends to better complement SWLiHN telekinesis/reality warping charms, Ebon Dragon or Cecelyne charms (as favored yozi for a defiler who specializes in telekinesis)

It really matters what you're trying to do. If you're focusing on telekinesis as a combat tool, then I'd lean towards the Ebon Dragon. MHM is already ludicrously accurate, at the cost of low damage. Ebon Dragon has Life Blighting Emptiness, which can add (Willpower) lethal piercing damage to it (and by the gods, if you're doing Swillin+EB, your Willpower better be 10), which can be further augmented by later EB charms.

Cecelyne, on the other hand, doesn't have much in the way of augmenting other attacks - her combat options mostly entail her environmental sand attack stuff. Although, if you fancy fighting like a poltergeist, Soul-Sand Devil Shintai and Stone-Flayer Touch can do that for you.

I'll also point out that, if you're typically bad at coming up with stunts, Principle Invoking Onslaught + Selfishness is Power makes getting 2-3 die stunts trivial. Just say anything, and be an ass about it.

[Qaera]

Charms don't do Lunar shapeshifting.

Knacks aren't knacks because they aren't attacks. They're knacks because they involve shapeshifting. They're a special category of Native charm-like ability that, in fact, likely exists because it predates the concept of the Native charm in the Exalted ruleset.

An attack that involved shapeshifting would not be a Charm. It would be a Knack, because it involved shapeshifting and should not be learnable by the likes of Eclipse castes, regardless of what it did mechanically with that shapeshifting.

Let's look at the categories of Knacks as presented in MoEP:Lunars.

Form Acquisition
Shapeshifting Refinement
Shapeshifting Speed
War Form

None of these are related to in-combat actions. Form Acquisition lets you get new forms. Refinement lets you change them. Speed lets you do it faster. War Form lets you become something that can then attack, but isn't an attack in and of itself.

I have no problem with Native shapeshifting attack Charms (goodbye, Eclipse problem) that branch off LHS, but that's not what 1. Knacks are and 2. Hero Styles are.

[Lix Lorn]

Just say anything, and be an ass about it.

I love Exalted.

[Xefas]

So, I've been designing some Solar charms, and I was hoping I could get some feedback on my train of logic for this one. See if everything matches up coherently.

Alright,
1a. Humans eat food.
1b. The human body metabolizes food into energy.

2a. The human brain functions via transmitting information in the form of electrical and chemical signaling between neurons.
2b. The human body converts energy metabolized from food to produce these electrical signals.

3a. Solars have a theme of being "Human-to-the-Max".
3b. Solars should have a charm whereby they eat food and then discharge lightning out of their face. (i.e. "Burritos-as-Lightning-Bolts Methodology")

[Indon]

Probably true. Still, that bring up the question of how to actually fix it.

Maybe make it a dodging/parrying charm that has a similar effect? Basically making scaling your DV up have no effect on the attack, and making it so that it no longer has to hit. Now, it's a stylized counterattack charm.

No, Hero Styles are a Martial Art to imitate an Exalt type's instinctive expression of Martial Combat, just like Tiger style is a Martial Art to imitate the way a Tiger fights. Exalts find it easier to learn their own Hero Style simply because it is easier to imitate yourself than other people.

But Exalts don't just find it easier. They find it instinctive. Martial arts styles normally need a trainer because they are not instinctive like most charms are, but the Hero styles are instinctive for their Exalt types, even before you get to any expansions.

Remember that Lunars are not just 'the shapeshifting Exalt', and likewise, their Hero Style should not be focused around shapeshifting, and instead be about their thematics.

The style could have both shapeshifting and other themes. It's just that the shapeshifting would be a theme that restricts it.

None of these are related to in-combat actions.

Irrelevant.

I have no problem with Native shapeshifting attack Charms (goodbye, Eclipse problem) that branch off LHS, but that's not what 1. Knacks are and 2. Hero Styles are.

It is what Knacks are, mechanically - they are a mechanically crude form of native charm.

A previously noted implementation could easily be that the charms of the style simply have additional effects for Lunars, functioning as hybrid Charm/Knacks of which only Lunars can access the power of the latter.

But personally, I think Lunars should actually have something special that they can do and nobody else can in terms of martial combat, and mechanically that's pretty much limited to shapeshifting.

How about, if not Knacks that have the Style charms as prereqs, maybe the charms have an additional effect if the Lunar has certain Knacks already? Like a synergy bonus or something. I've never really dealt with Lunars from a player's perspective (and never as 2nd Edition) so just let me know if that's kind of how things work already or if it's stupid or something.

It would be workable, and it's one of the possible implementations for the style I described earlier.

-You could use a charm-that-functions-as-knack setup or make knack-based extensions that compromise on the issue and allow others to practice the style without being able to achieve the same level of mastery. Personally, I wouldn't bother with that path, because...

But it's not my favorite because I feel that shapechanging can make the style more distinct if it essentially restricts the style to beings that have shapechanging.

[Yuki Akuma]

Then make another martial art based around shapeshifting. You can do that. Just not a Hero Style, because Hero Styles are designed to be emulated by other people.

[Indon]

Just not a Hero Style, because Hero Styles are designed to be emulated by other people.

Hero Styles can be emulated by other people, but that's not what they are. What they are is the innate martial arts tree of their respective Exalt type. The fact that hero styles can be emulated stems from the fact that no Exalt type has such a broad category of de facto Native abilities - the only other Exalt type that comes close to having that feature doesn't have a Hero style.

That said, cross-Exaltation use of hero styles seems a lot more popular than I thought, at least judging from the thread.

I suppose the best compromise would be to provide additional benefits to Lunar Hero Style charms based on the ability to use Knacks. That way, Lunars both get to use their signature power in their signature style, and other martial artists can still emulate everything else about it.

[Dragnar]

Hmm... I have had a rather vague and possibly terrible idea for a custom artifact. I was playing God Hand, and idly wondered if the titular arm could be statted out as a high-rating artifact. What I came up with was a 5-dot prosthetic that enhances your natural attacks, and more importantly, gives the user access to a unique MA with the arm as a form weapon. So my main question is... is it a completely terrible idea to have an artifact grant access to charms that cannot be gained without it? Or more generally: Is it at least reasonable to need to pay xp to fully unlock an artifact's capabilities?

[WalkingTarget]

It would be workable, and it's one of the possible implementations for the style I described earlier.

But it's not my favorite because I feel that shapechanging can make the style more distinct if it essentially restricts the style to beings that have shapechanging.

Ah, I thought you were suggesting creating new extentions/knacks branching off of the tree rather than adding additional effects to the existing charms that add a bonus effect if the character has an appropriate existing knack.

[tonberrian]

But it's not my favorite because I feel that shapechanging can make the style more distinct if it essentially restricts the style to beings that have shapechanging.

If you limit it to people who can shapechange, then you might as well not call it a martial art. There's no mechanical difference between calling it Lunar Hero style or just a native Dexterity charm cascade, since Lunars buy Lunar Hero as Dexterity charms, and nobody else can use it.

[Indon]

Ah, I thought you were suggesting creating new extentions/knacks branching off of the tree rather than adding additional effects to the existing charms that add a bonus effect if the character has an appropriate existing knack.

That's another possibility, but I think the dual-purpose charm setup would be more graceful.

Hmm... I have had a rather vague and possibly terrible idea for a custom artifact. I was playing God Hand, and idly wondered if the titular arm could be statted out as a high-rating artifact. What I came up with was a 5-dot prosthetic that enhances your natural attacks, and more importantly, gives the user access to a unique MA with the arm as a form weapon. So my main question is... is it a completely terrible idea to have an artifact grant access to charms that cannot be gained without it? Or more generally: Is it at least reasonable to need to pay xp to fully unlock an artifact's capabilities?

So, the artifact counts as a tutor for the charms in its' style? I think that's entirely reasonable, and frankly not even a 5-dot benefit unless it does something crazy like initiate you to a higher martial arts level to be able to use the style.

[Volthawk]

So I was reading through the book that has details on the Fair Folk, and I was curious. How do they stack up against Exalts (as in, are they Terrestrial-level power, or Celestial, that kinda thing)?