General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

[DeadManSleeping]

Unless your player intends on putting as much strength into his own army (tons of War Charms, demons, etc), assume that the Bull's army will win. Find a way to turn this into an interesting backdrop for the fight that matters. Instead of a full-on army-to-army attack, maybe it's a pinpoint strike designed to get the player to the Bull of the North and keep the others off him long enough for a duel? With an unexpected attack to start with, even Solar War Charms might not be able to stop that. Honestly, a non-Mass fight takes like a tick of Mass Combat. It's totally doable.

If your player wants to make a truly formidable army, then let him spend the time amassing one, ducking the efforts of every other world player to stop him from doing so.

[Qaera]

I would say, short of redesigning the entire Mass Combat clusterf, you should improvise it. Keep track of how many people both sides has still alive, and mark down how many you think die with each action. Essentially, make it narrative.

If the BotN's Army is objectively better, have the GSP fail a second time (might be interesting thematically) and lick his wounds before coming back prepared to actually defeat the Bull.

Maybe do the whole "My leader challenges your leader to one-on-one combat." I think the Bull's Virtue Flaw is based on Valor, so the Infernal could insult him or something to get him riled up. Play up the "You don't want so many of your men to die, right?" bit.

Edit: I really like DMS' idea of hitting the Bull fast and hard and using an 'army' to escape/duel.

[Kylarra]

Yeah I agree with making mass combat into a backdrop. If one army is objectively better than the other, and your guys are definitely not investing as much into war charms as BotN, then just assume his army crushes theirs. They can still have another plan for engaging him directly, but as far as armies are concerned, they lose. They can win tactical victories if they play it smart enough, but any equivalent force encounters etc etc, should be outright losses and so on.

[TheCountAlucard]

Unless your player intends on putting as much strength into his own army...

Troublesome part is, there's exactly one Infernal Charm that explicitly has a mass combat effect in all of Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals, and it does not lend itself well to having an army.

assume that the Bull's army will win.

I've considered this one a few times; it might be troublesome, however, especially if they think it to be ST Fiat on my part.

Instead of a full-on army-to-army attack, maybe it's a pinpoint strike designed to get the player to the Bull of the North and keep the others off him long enough for a duel?

Even with the Valor flaw, I honestly don't think he'd willingly engage said PC in a duel. For one thing, said PC killed Raneth of Diamond Hearth on his own, when Raneth had the advantage of getting off a surprise attack, and had numerous guards to take him on. And the Bull KNOWS this.

It's totally doable.

The rules say otherwise.

Maybe do the whole "My leader challenges your leader to one-on-one combat." I think the Bull's Virtue Flaw is based on Valor, so the Infernal could insult him or something to get him riled up. Play up the "You don't want so many of your men to die, right?" bit.

Again, you can resist your Virtue flaw.

[Qaera]

Not in Limit Break! Just have a Fiend keep sending him UMI loaded letters, or resist his Valor to duel him, until he Breaks. He has Foolhardy Contempt, so he should go for it.

[TheCountAlucard]

Not in Limit Break! Just have a Fiend keep sending him UMI loaded letters, or resist his Valor to duel him, until he Breaks. He has Foolhardy Contempt, so he should go for it.

That's also abusing the system, and metagaming.

Plus, resisting Valor works for the scene; as such, all he's gotta do is deploy his army at them after resisting once.

That, and the Fiend is currently interred at the Bull's camp.

[Yuki Akuma]

You can resist your flaw during Limit Break. It's just hard and you don't get the Willpower at the end.

Someone with a Limit Break that makes him fight opponents can still run away if he knows he's outmatched by controlling the Limit Break.

[Qaera]

That's also abusing the system, and metagaming.

Plus, resisting Valor works for the scene; as such, all he's gotta do is deploy his army at them after resisting once.

That, and the Fiend is currently interred at the Bull's camp.

Well, obviously don't just metagame. They could do a guerrilla taunting thing, with them rushing in and challenging him, then ostensibly running away, then coming back. Does Adorjan have any Mass Combat Charms?

Even better! He could UMI the guards into getting him to meet the Bull, then challenge him. Bull thinks he can win, then bam! Slayer to the face. Not quite sure how to get the Slayer in there yet.

You can resist your flaw during Limit Break. It's just hard and you don't get the Willpower at the end.

Someone with a Limit Break that makes him fight opponents can still run away if he knows he's outmatched by controlling the Limit Break.

You can, but it doesn't mean you will. Characters don't have perfect knowledge, and he might just not know he's outmatched.

Now I'm thinking the Slayer could infiltrate the ranks of the Bull's forces (with GSNF for gits and shiggles) and pretend to be some sort of uprising, and the Bull just thinks he's going to throw down the gauntlet with this punk, then bam!

[TheCountAlucard]

Well, obviously don't just metagame.

With no offense intended, I'm being serious here.

They could do a guerrilla taunting thing, with them rushing in and challenging him, then ostensibly running away, then coming back.

Once again, I'm being serious here.

Does Adorjan have any Mass Combat Charms?

Remember how I said there's one Mass Combat Charm in the entire Infernals book, and it doesn't mesh with having an army? It's hers.

Even better! He could UMI the guards into getting him to meet the Bull, then challenge him.

He already knows the Bull.

Bull thinks he can win, then bam! Slayer to the face. Not quite sure how to get the Slayer in there yet.

...again, please, try not to be silly with this.

Characters don't have perfect knowledge, and he might just not know he's outmatched.

I already told you that he KNOWS said PC killed Raneth of Diamond Hearth, and while yes, he's ostensibly more powerful than the other members of his circle, that's still a big sign that he's not to be trifled with.

Now I'm thinking the Slayer could infiltrate the ranks of the Bull's forces (with GSNF for gits and shiggles) and pretend to be some sort of uprising, and the Bull just thinks he's going to throw down the gauntlet with this punk, then bam!

The troublesome part there is that the Slayer's a little... distinguishable. For one thing, he's nine feet tall and has a big, tainted starmetal daiklave that he takes everywhere, and has no intention of changing either of those things.

Also, how does Green Sun Nimbus Flare help him hide?

[SurlySeraph]

[Mass Combat]

Here's a fix that looks good and that I've heard good things about.

The troublesome part there is that the Slayer's a little... distinguishable. For one thing, he's nine feet tall and has a big, tainted starmetal daiklave that he takes everywhere, and has no intention of changing either of those things.

Also, how does Green Sun Nimbus Flare help him hide?

Setting everything on fire as a distraction + Crowned With Fury "TELL THE BULL HIS TROOPS ARE MUTINYING!" + stabbity death for anyone who spends the Willpower to resist Crowned With Fury seems like a good way to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

[DeadManSleeping]

The rules say otherwise.

"If the rules get in the way of a good story, you're not using them correctly"
-More experienced GMs than I can count.

[TheCountAlucard]

Setting everything on fire as a distraction + Crowned With Fury "TELL THE BULL HIS TROOPS ARE MUTINYING!" + stabbity death for anyone who spends the Willpower to resist Crowned With Fury seems like a good way to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

Well, point is, he wouldn't be able to infiltrate the Bull's army; he's a little noticeable, y'see, and it's not like he was subtle before he got mutated and killed Raneth of Diamond Hearth. Plus, he doesn't know Crowned With Fury.

"If the rules get in the way of a good story, you're not using them correctly"
-More experienced GMs than I can count.

Oh, I'm aware; I kinda worded that poorly. What would be more in-line with what I was intending is along the lines of, "Okay, why do the PCs get to decide to do regular combat while the army's doing mass combat?"

Regardless of whether I'm going to use those rules or not.

[Tavar]

This thread has some thoughts on Yozi(and by extension, Infernal) mass combat/war.

Personally, unless they bust out the stuff that makes the infernal into a mass combat unit by themselves, then I'd have their army lose. Solar's are better generals and commanders; I think the Primordial War proved this. Now, they can still win, but they aren't doing it as generals and commanders, they're doing it as horrible, world shattering beings, so powerful that they only thing that can really fight them are armies.

[golentan]

This thread has some thoughts on Yozi(and by extension, Infernal) mass combat/war.

Personally, unless they bust out the stuff that makes the infernal into a mass combat unit by themselves, then I'd have their army lose. Solar's are better generals and commanders; I think the Primordial War proved this. Now, they can still win, but they aren't doing it as generals and commanders, they're doing it as horrible, world shattering beings, so powerful that they only thing that can really fight them are armies.

Seconded very much. For example Demon Emperor Shintai could be awesome (IIRC it has mass combat effects and is my favorite "final boss" shintai).

Is it weird that all I can think of is "those poor demons in the Bull's army." No matter who wins, they are in for a horrible horrible fate (beyond the standard horrible horrible fate for first circles).

[Turalisj]

Is it weird that all I can think of is "those poor demons in the Bull's army." No matter who wins, they are in for a horrible horrible fate (beyond the standard horrible horrible fate for first circles).

Turned into an artifact condom for the Slayer?

[golentan]

... Maybe?

No, just... if the GSPs win, the demons will be subject to whatever punishment they see fit. Which, probably, pretty horrible (I don't know the PCs). And if the Bull wins, eventually they are likely to be unsummoned. And I can only imagine what the Priests of Cecelyne do to someone who helped beat down what is effectively an unquestionable, whether or not they had any say in it. I think the best they can hope for is a relatively quick death on the battlefield.

[IcarusWings]

Guys, a quick question. I have decided to take up the morally ambiguous task of writing a homebrew SMA called Rising Chorus of Exquisite Harmony Style, based around connection and working together, through the focus of music and harmonies. Are there any music-based styles already out there, and if so, could you point me too them?

[Yuki Akuma]

Guys, a quick question. I have decided to take up the morally ambiguous task of writing a homebrew SMA called Rising Chorus of Exquisite Harmony Style, based around connection and working together, through the focus of music and harmonies. Are there any music-based styles already out there, and if so, could you point me too them?

Silver Voiced Nightingale Style is the only one I can think of. Scroll of the Monk, of course.

[SurlySeraph]

There's Silver-Voiced Nightingale, but it kinda sucks. There's also this homebrew, which I haven't read; it's based on DB Performance charms, which (along with Abyssal and Sidereal Performance. Especially Abyssal) could be a useful reference for music-related combat.

[Qaera]

Why does the name of the SMA not have a color in it? That's like, a thing.

[IcarusWings]

Why does the name of the SMA not have a color in it? That's like, a thing.

Because, try as I might, I can't come up with a colour to associate with music. I'm more than happy to take suggestions, that name was cobbled together in the space of about a minute, so it could do with improvement.

[Xefas]

Because, try as I might, I can't come up with a colour to associate with music. I'm more than happy to take suggestions, that name was cobbled together in the space of about a minute, so it could do with improvement.

Music is sort of a hard one, but maybe something like "Pellucid"?

[Yuki Akuma]

...Silver?

[IcarusWings]

Music is sort of a hard one, but maybe something like "Pellucid"?

Pellucid Chorus of Exquisite Harmony? Sounds alright, I'll use it unless I'm suddenly struck by inspiration (which I deem unlikely).

EDIT:

...Silver?

I'd lean away from silver, however a swanky sounding synonym might work. Argent maybe?

[TheCountAlucard]

Personally, unless they bust out the stuff that makes the infernal into a mass combat unit by themselves, then I'd have their army lose. Solar's are better generals and commanders; I think the Primordial War proved this.

You make an excellent point.

Now, they can still win, but they aren't doing it as generals and commanders, they're doing it as horrible, world shattering beings, so powerful that they only thing that can really fight them are armies.

I actually think that makes a lot of sense. I was actually going to ask if anyone thought it was odd how Green Sun Princes basically had the unerrata'd Immunity to Armies approach available at character creation, but you've already gone and answered it for me.

Seconded very much. For example Demon Emperor Shintai could be awesome (IIRC it has mass combat effects and is my favorite "final boss" shintai).

Unfortunately, the party's only Essence 3.

Is it weird that all I can think of is "those poor demons in the Bull's army." No matter who wins, they are in for a horrible horrible fate (beyond the standard horrible horrible fate for first circles).

Not really.

[DragonSinged]

You make an excellent point.

I actually think that makes a lot of sense. I was actually going to ask if anyone thought it was odd how Green Sun Princes basically had the unerrata'd Immunity to Armies approach available at character creation, but you've already gone and answered it for me.

Now, the tricky part is (and the answer to this question might contribute to defining what type of ST you are), are you going to tell your players that Solars geared towards raising armies (like the BotN) are capable of putting together forces that are unmatchable by any armies that the players might try to assemble?
Because if you don't point it out plain and simple, your players might fall into the train of thought of "Well, if I try hard enough, he's got to let us succeed. After all, the BotN is only an NPC."

However, that's metagame thinking, and in my opinion, it should be punished.

I kid, I kid. The point remains, though, that you probably shouldn't just outright tell the players how great the Bull's army is, unless the players actually scout it out and see for themselves how intense it is.

[TheCountAlucard]

Now, the tricky part is (and the answer to this question might contribute to defining what type of ST you are), are you going to tell your players that Solars geared towards raising armies (like the BotN) are capable of putting together forces that are unmatchable by any armies that the players might try to assemble?

Probably not. They've already got what I think is more than enough information in that department.

Because if you don't point it out plain and simple, your players might fall into the train of thought of "Well, if I try hard enough, he's got to let us succeed. After all, the BotN is only an NPC."

I should certainly hope not; I've proven to them a few times now that "NPC" does not equate to "easy victory."

Our Fiend learned that when he tried to negotiate with the Lover Clad in Raiment of Tears, and our Malefactor learned that when he landed on the Blessed Isle.

However, that's metagame thinking, and in my opinion, it should be punished.

I kid, I kid.

Do you? That's a shame.

The point remains, though, that you probably shouldn't just outright tell the players how great the Bull's army is, unless the players actually scout it out and see for themselves how intense it is.

Actually, that's exactly what the Fiend's done. That's why he's sitting in Mother's Hearth now, wondering which side he's going to betray next.

[golentan]

Essence 3! Darn. Well, there's always Devil Tyrant Avatar Shintai.

[Tavar]

Seems like he's taken the Ebon Dragon's lessons to heart.

[SurlySeraph]

So I had a moment of inspiration. Thoughts?

Thunder Stride Dismissal
Cost: 10m, 1wp; Mins: Stealth 5, Essence 3; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Merged (Athletics), Shaping, Mirror (Nefarious Sabotage Stride)
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: King Strides Unseen

The Daggers of Heaven leave no evidence of their deeds - only proof that justice has been done. This Charm supplements a move action to walk away from a location in which the Solar has spent at least 16 motes of Essence within the last scene. He sends pulses of Essence through his footsteps, setting up vibrations that harmonize with the echoes of his earlier Essence-use to produce an explosion. Treat this as an attack against every target in an area of [Essence x5] yards in radius, targeted with [Appearance + Stealth] and causing a base 10B piercing damage to all characters and objects caught within it. This also perfectly obliterates all evidence of the Solar's presence at the scene, and adds [Essence] automatic successes to the opposed Essence roll against any investigatory effect that would contest this.
The Solar can be no further than [Essence x6] yards from the target at the start of the move action used to activate this Charm.
This Charm also appears in Athletics (prerequisites: Glorious Temple Body).

EDIT: It occurs to me that Stealth might not be the best place for this charm. It should be Larceny.