General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

[TheCountAlucard]

This Charm also appears in Athletics (prerequisites: Increasing Strength Exercise, Glorious Temple Body).

Glorious Temple Body's an Ink Monkeys Charm, right? I believe, then, that it actually already has Increasing Strength Exercise as a prerequisite.

I also believe just a few days ago, some of us were having a discussion on exactly such a Charm...

[knightMARE]

Are there many charms worth learning as an Eclipse-oid that your native charms don't do better? Principles of Motion is one I could think of, but there aren't many more

[Xefas]

Are there many charms worth learning as an Eclipse-oid that your native charms don't do better? Principles of Motion is one I could think of, but there aren't many more

Well, you aren't really going to get any better charms on the way to "perfect paranoia combo + ability to deal arbitrarily large amount of damage at minimum mote expenditure". But once you get there, and want some charms that make you feel like you're playing Exalted instead of Spreadsheet Hackn'Slash Hero, I like Chirality Prohibition Index. No prerequisites, Essence 2, and it runs just fine for any kind of character (although Occult helps, just having okay Willpower and Essence will be enough to mindscrew mortals - so even the less intelligently inclined characters can grab it). And you're making the world creepy and demonic, which is always a bonus (especially for Solars; as we all know, the Unconquered Sun can get the highest threshold successes in the game for social attacks meant to make people act creepily and demonic; dunno about Moonshadows).

By Pain Reforged + By Rage Recast will get you way better flight than native Solar charms, at lower Essence. And when you don't need to fly, you can just swap it out for the equivalent of All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight, or more soak, or higher strength or whatever.

If you already have By Pain Reforged, you could also pick up Nightmare Fugue Vigilance. I don't think Solars have a "Don't need sleep anymore" charm.

And finally, there is absolutely no downside to taking Witness to Darkness. Talk about "low-hanging fruit".

EDIT: Characters who find themselves spending a lot of Essence over a typical day might like Mother Sea Mastery + Tidal Renewal Discipline. Reduces time you need to sleep, you count being in water as restful for Essence Respiration no matter what you're doing, and you can pray to gain an additional 20 motes respiration per hour. And a few other minor benefits.

[TheCountAlucard]

And finally, there is absolutely no downside to taking Witness to Darkness.

I beg to differ on this one; the permanent penalties aren't exactly pleasant, after all. Our Scourge took it as a prerequisite for L-BEA; having your Charisma-based dice pools turn up negative numbers is rather unpleasant...

[Xefas]

I beg to differ on this one; the permanent penalties aren't exactly pleasant, after all.

You call them "penalties", I call them "disincentivizing bonuses". You get a bonus disincentive to tell the truth. See? You get a bonus. Doesn't that sound fun? It's all good.

[DragonSinged]

So I had a moment of inspiration. Thoughts?

Thunder Stride Dismissal
Cost: 10m, 1wp; Mins: Stealth 5, Essence 3; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Merged (Athletics), Shaping, Mirror (Nefarious Sabotage Stride)
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: King Strides Unseen

The Daggers of Heaven leave no evidence of their deeds - only proof that justice has been done. This Charm supplements a move action to walk away from a location in which the Solar has spent at least 16 motes of Essence within the last scene. He sends pulses of Essence through his footsteps, setting up vibrations that harmonize with the echoes of his earlier Essence-use to produce an explosion. Treat this as an attack against every target in an area of [Essence x5] yards in radius, targeted with [Appearance + Stealth] and causing a base 10B piercing damage to all characters and objects caught within it. This also perfectly obliterates all evidence of the Solar's presence at the scene, and adds [Essence] automatic successes to the opposed Essence roll against any investigatory effect that would contest this.

This Charm also appears in Athletics (prerequisites: Increasing Strength Exercise, Glorious Temple Body).

EDIT: It occurs to me that Stealth might not be the best place for this charm. It should be Larceny.

I'm a little confused as to where exactly the explosion takes place in relation to the Solar's position. Is the explosion centered on the Solar? Or is it somewhere behind the Solar as the Solar walks away in slow-motion? I think that could use a little defining.

It sort of seems like it could be that the explosion is centered on where the Solar was at the beginning of his move action. If this is the case, maybe clarify a little, adding something like "The explosion is centered on the Solar's position at the beginning of his move action, but does not take place until the end of his move action, giving the Solar that much time to clear the blast area."

Ok, maybe that's a little awkwardly worded, but you get the idea. I hope.

[ShadowFighter15]

Finally going to be starting on that 5Corners run soon but I wanted to get a quick question answered while I think of it.

At one point in the adventure, the section titled the "Tomb of Twilight", they go to a factory-cathedral that Rinan's First Age incarnation had built. Now I've always assumed that a factory-cathedral could only exist as part of a manse, is that the case? Because I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong about that.

Another question I have (that may not be needed depending on whether the players want to continue with the 5Corners characters or make their own) is how hard would it be to repair? I don't recall seeing any suggestions in the 5Corners PDF of how hard it'd be to fix, though I'm pretty sure that the materials alone would be hell to get ahold of.

[Qaera]

Factory-Cathedrals are a type of Manse, based off of a Manse Power with the same name. Strictly speaking, a Factory-Cathedral!Manse requires the Factory-Cathedral!Power, but a Manse with the F-C!Power is not necessarily a F-C!Manse. However, if one is going to be using the F-C!Power it is likely many of the other Manse Points will be going to the production of artifacts. So yes, Factory-Cathedrals can only exist as part of a Manse.

F-Cs required the attention of a First Age Twilight to oversee the productions or have a team of high Essence, highly specialized Terrestrial artisans to maintain it. During the Shogunate, they managed to keep the F-Cs up for a while (mainly producing military weapons, usually repurposing manses that were designed to produce something else, sometimes warstriders), but it needs a Celestial to operate at a reasonable pace for any amount of time. Repairing (and utilizing) a First Age Factory-Cathedral would be an epic Motivation worthy of a Celestial Exaltation (especially if they have past life ties to the manse).

[SurlySeraph]

Glorious Temple Body's an Ink Monkeys Charm, right? I believe, then, that it actually already has Increasing Strength Exercise as a prerequisite.

I also believe just a few days ago, some of us were having a discussion on exactly such a Charm...

Doi. Indeed it does.

And indeed you were.

I'm a little confused as to where exactly the explosion takes place in relation to the Solar's position. Is the explosion centered on the Solar? Or is it somewhere behind the Solar as the Solar walks away in slow-motion? I think that could use a little defining.

It sort of seems like it could be that the explosion is centered on where the Solar was at the beginning of his move action. If this is the case, maybe clarify a little, adding something like "The explosion is centered on the Solar's position at the beginning of his move action, but does not take place until the end of his move action, giving the Solar that much time to clear the blast area."

Ok, maybe that's a little awkwardly worded, but you get the idea. I hope.

I edited in "The Solar can be no further than [Essence x6] yards from the target at the start of the move action used to activate this Charm."

[golentan]

Okay, so I'm trying to homebrew up a charm for my dragonblooded character. I've got the name ([Element] Dragon's Song), the prereqs (Soul Stirring Performance Method, Invisible Street Performer, Performance 5, Essence 2), some of the mechanics (cost: 6m 1wp, Type: simple, Keywords: Elemental, Cooperative, Obvious, Shaping?), and a rough idea of what I would like it to do (I would like it to make manifestations of the element in question shapeable and possibly make the performance act as unnatural mental influence vs elementals of the appropriate type).

I'm working (somewhat) with Affinity [Element] Control as a rough guideline for what it can do. I was thinking maybe make it possible to create an environmental hazard or perform the craft option using your performance for the craft score (I don't want to do direct attacks because that's covered by Three String Sword Prana already). But I'm not sure of the exact mechanics, and my only previous attempts at homebrewing charms went badly. Any advice for cost/changing the prerequisites/how to mechanically handle the abilities?

[ShadowFighter15]

Factory-Cathedrals are a type of Manse, based off of a Manse Power with the same name. Strictly speaking, a Factory-Cathedral!Manse requires the Factory-Cathedral!Power, but a Manse with the F-C!Power is not necessarily a F-C!Manse. However, if one is going to be using the F-C!Power it is likely many of the other Manse Points will be going to the production of artifacts. So yes, Factory-Cathedrals can only exist as part of a Manse.

Thanks for the clarification, I guess the writers had different ideas when Return to the Tomb of Five Corners was first published (which I think was well before Oadenol's Codex).

F-Cs required the attention of a First Age Twilight to oversee the productions or have a team of high Essence, highly specialized Terrestrial artisans to maintain it. During the Shogunate, they managed to keep the F-Cs up for a while (mainly producing military weapons, usually repurposing manses that were designed to produce something else, sometimes warstriders), but it needs a Celestial to operate at a reasonable pace for any amount of time. Repairing (and utilizing) a First Age Factory-Cathedral would be an epic Motivation worthy of a Celestial Exaltation (especially if they have past life ties to the manse).

I was asking more along the lines of what Craft Abilities he might need to fix it - the adventure made it very clear that it would take a hell of a lot of time and effort to get in working order and would probably be an adventure in and of itself. What the adventure didn't do was suggest what Craft Abilities would be required or how much raw materials might be needed to repair Essence pathways or even just the pipes of the Refinery Organ.

[Tavar]

Probably Craft(magitech) and a combination of the mundane crafts. Raw materials and times needed to fix it would be found in Oadenol's Codex.

[DragonSinged]

So, Sal-Maneth. Floating city of sealed-off towers that no one has been able to enter since the Solars disappeared. It's one of those areas of Creation that, as far as I can tell, has been left up to the ST of any particular game to define.
Have any of you been to Sal-Maneth in your games of Exalted?

...

My circle just visited there.

The ST established pretty early in the session that the scholars residing in the city had found that there was Old Realm writing on the front of a lot of the towers, and that this writing appeared to be names of Solars from the first age. So, we kinda figured, hey, these were houses of some sort.
But why do these Solars have all these houses together? Maybe this was some kind of Solar Deliberative HQ?

But then why is it way out in, well, Sal-Maneth? Shouldn't that sort of thing be on the Blessed Isle? Well.. It is a flying city... maybe it moved?


Then it turned out that two of the Solars in the group had towers here.


The truth was not so, ah... dignified.


Sal-Maneth, in our Creation, is a resort town. Each of the towers had some sort of space set in Elsewhere custom-designed by the Solar that lived there. Our Eclipse Caste had sort of a... Think of the city of Bruges? (It's in Belgium). All sorts of happy people so happy to see her, the "sun" (fire elemental) always shining in the sky, picturesque windmills in the distance, a nice cottage for her to live in, a little library with a variety of books (some of which were written by her in a past life.)


In contrast, when we opened up the Dawn Caste's tower, inside was... The Beach. There was one male Butler-ghost, and many, many ah.. well.. endowed.... ah.. "ladies". *cough-cough*

The Dawn Caste has a group of 20 or so loyal troops that travel with him, and they hadn't had a real break for a while, so he trooped them all in there, and, well, there were, um... Festivities. The ladies were very happy to see us.


I'm phrasing this delicately, but in all honesty the session was hilarious and a lot of fun. It was basically the first time our characters have been truly "safe" pretty much since the game started, and for some of the characters, for quite a bit longer than that. By that I mean, no one had been able to get into these towers since the First Age, but our characters were able to walk right in, so once the doors shut behind them, they didn't really have to worry about the Wyld Hunt or whatever being on their tails, etcetera.

So yeah, fun, somewhat immature session, quite fun, not at all what we were expecting.

Really, yeah, not what I was expecting Sal-Maneth to be about.

[ShadowFighter15]

Probably Craft(magitech) and a combination of the mundane crafts. Raw materials and times needed to fix it would be found in Oadenol's Codex.

Ahk, so just follow the normal rules for manse repair? I figured I was just over-thinking things.

Couple of other questions while I think of them, one about the Stunt System and another about Abyssals.

If someone makes a flurry of three attacks (just an example here), and each attack has a short description that qualifies for a one-dice stunt, does that count as three one-dice stunts (one bonus dice for each attack) or a single one-dice stunt that's applied to whichever attack the player wants?

If an Abyssal is redeemed and transformed back into a Solar, can they use their original name again or is that forever lost to them after sacrificing it to the Neverborn?

[Xefas]

If someone makes a flurry of three attacks (just an example here), and each attack has a short description that qualifies for a one-dice stunt, does that count as three one-dice stunts (one bonus dice for each attack) or a single one-dice stunt that's applied to whichever attack the player wants?

It's funny, I've always assumed that each action in the flurry got the die bonus, but you received the mote/willpower/experience bonus only once per action/defense. But reading the stunt and action section, I can't find where it says anything about that. Nor can I find anything in the Scroll of Errata. Weird.

If an Abyssal is redeemed and transformed back into a Solar, can they use their original name again or is that forever lost to them after sacrificing it to the Neverborn?

Of course. You have no Resonance track anymore. The Neverborn have no control over you, and you can do whatever you damn well please.

[Tavar]

For then latter question, I think they can. Resonance is the only thing keeping them from using their name normally, and as a redeemed Solar they don't have that.

For the former, it really depends on how you want to your game.

[ShadowFighter15]

I figured that was the case with the name, just wanted to make sure (there was no mention of the name in the Scroll of Errata's bit on Abyssal Redemption).

For the former, it really depends on how you want to your game.

Well, if how Xefas has been doing it has worked out fine for him then I might just go with that.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I believe the general consensus is that you can only get one offensive stunt reward and one defensive stunt reward per action in combat. You can stunt anything, but you can only get the reward twice.

Consensus in the sense that it's the ruling that doesn't stomp on the already dead horse of a combat system. If you got the reward for stunting every attack in a flurry, that would make the game even worse then it already is.

[Story Time]

...too many pony avatars...
...must resist...influence...

Spoiler

Show

Pohni Island is a place where impossible things can happen. Candy-grass grows in long fields interrupted by maple trees. The trees themselves have pores where the sap can be licked, making the trees giggle. A big chocolate rock stands at the center of Pohni Island. It grows by itself pouring out the Fudge River and Soda Stream from opposing Falls. Soda Stream flows into Soda Lake where the local inhabitants can swim, drink, and play. Fudge River ends at the Muddy Banks where cocoa bugs roll the chocolate into hard rocks called bonbons.

And Pohni Island is a place that has not yet known trouble or war. Every century or so the Mistress will come and talk, and chat, with her pohnies. She pets them, plays with them, and takes long naps under the sweet-lemon sun and the bubble-gum sky. She watches those who dance the Dance of The Prancing Pony and offers advice on little things like how to dodge the rain Sprinkles.

The Mistress is not always alone when she visits. Sometimes she brings a friend, or the Lover, but the Door To Pohni Island is almost always closed.

...until yesterday when it was found gaping open next to the Minty Mines. A Big Discussion was held between the pohnies about what they should do. The Mistress would certainly want to know that her Door To Pohni Island was open, they said. And so it was decided that a few pohnies, each with a breath of an element, would venture forth to find the Twilight Mistress, or the Lunar Lover, and inform them of the Door's position.

We'll just tell the Mistress about the Door To Pohni Island and be back inside before bed, they said.

Does this idea make me...unstable?

[Qaera]

Hey, guys! Yeah, you! Guess what just came out.
Go on, I'll wait.

Reminiscent Oasis just published the Beta version of his own MoEP, which is titled Nocturnals. Nocturnals are the Chosen of Nox, the Onyx Youth, and utilize Attribute Charms.

But enough chit chat! Check it out [here]!

[Yuki Akuma]

...too many pony avatars...
...must resist...influence...

Spoiler

Show

Pohni Island is a place where impossible things can happen. Candy-grass grows in long fields interrupted by maple trees. The trees themselves have pores where the sap can be licked, making the trees giggle. A big chocolate rock stands at the center of Pohni Island. It grows by itself pouring out the Fudge River and Soda Stream from opposing Falls. Soda Stream flows into Soda Lake where the local inhabitants can swim, drink, and play. Fudge River ends at the Muddy Banks where cocoa bugs roll the chocolate into hard rocks called bonbons.

And Pohni Island is a place that has not yet known trouble or war. Every century or so the Mistress will come and talk, and chat, with her pohnies. She pets them, plays with them, and takes long naps under the sweet-lemon sun and the bubble-gum sky. She watches those who dance the Dance of The Prancing Pony and offers advice on little things like how to dodge the rain Sprinkles.

The Mistress is not always alone when she visits. Sometimes she brings a friend, or the Lover, but the Door To Pohni Island is almost always closed.

...until yesterday when it was found gaping open next to the Minty Mines. A Big Discussion was held between the pohnies about what they should do. The Mistress would certainly want to know that her Door To Pohni Island was open, they said. And so it was decided that a few pohnies, each with a breath of an element, would venture forth to find the Twilight Mistress, or the Lunar Lover, and inform them of the Door's position.

We'll just tell the Mistress about the Door To Pohni Island and be back inside before bed, they said.

Does this idea make me...unstable?

I want to play this game.

[Story Time]

I want to play this game.

Really? Thanks for saying so! Maybe I can think about it more.


Also, Nocturnals sounds kind of interesting...

[DeadManSleeping]

Hey, here's a new topic.

How many of you remember when demons were first introduced, before they were explored in much detail? Do you remember how they were mysterious beings with time-bending powers? They received summons five days in advance of when they happened. Their book of evil had not yet been written, but was rather a copy of something that would be written in the future. And there was the occasionally-spoken-of silence at the end of all things.

Now, of course, that stuff's basically been thrown out. The Yozis are basically sympathetic creatures now. They have rather concrete, consistent, and human-like personalities.

Does anybody miss the idea of demons as these alien entities? Where the Yozis are like the Great Old Ones, who are only even vaguely comprehensible through their component souls? Where becoming an Akuma truly warps and violates your mind and your soul? Where demon cults are basically the sickest, most reviled thing in Creation?

That's what I went into Exalted expecting. I am not happy with what I got. I know that most people feel the exact opposite way, but hey, it's worth discussing, I think.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Now, of course, that stuff's basically been thrown out. The Yozis are basically sympathetic creatures now. They have rather concrete, consistent, and human-like personalities.

What?

The Yozis are portrayed as a bunch of insane, crippled monsters with alien mindsets. Understandable alien mindsets, but still alien.

Does anybody miss the idea of demons as these alien entities? Where the Yozis are like the Great Old Ones, who are only even vaguely comprehensible through their component souls?

A) Demons are portrayed as being "alien" entities. I really don't know where you're getting this from.

B) Lovecraftian horror flatly does not work in Exalted. Lovecraftian stories work because the protagonists are ignorant and insignificant, helpless against the Powers that Be. The default assumption of Exalted is that you are one of the Powers that Be. You can drop by and have a cup of tea with Nyarlathotep, chill out with Azathoth and listen to some tunes, and wrap up your day by coming home to Earth and beating the crap out of that punk Cthulhu who is still on your lawn. To be effective antagonists in a medium where you can interact with them, the Yozis need to be understandable. They are portrayed as being alien monsters, but you can wrap your head around their mindset, even if you don't think like that (see also: Fair Folk).

Where becoming an Akuma truly warps and violates your mind and your soul?

That is literally exactly how the process is portrayed. It's one of the most horrific things that can happen to an Exalt.

Where demon cults are basically the sickest, most reviled thing in Creation?

I don't think this is ever how they've been portrayed, though they haven't ever really gotten a lot of attention. Probably because demon cults in specific tend to be too small-time to pay attention to.

[Yuki Akuma]

It's more accurate to say that humans think in Yozi-like ways, rather than Yozis thinking in human-like ways.

I mean, seriously, why would they create creatrues that don't think the way they do?

[golentan]

Demons and yozis are still colossally alien and bizarre. They are understandable, but they're still alien and bizarre. They still have the time bending weirdness, and have you read up on the geography of their home/bodies or the weather they get? To say nothing of their tastes and desires.

[DeadManSleeping]

I've read every Exalted book except for Broken-Winged Crane. The only things I like about demons are some of the specific demons they've written up, which are perfectly freakish and bizarre. It's the relationship that demons seem to have with Exalted that bug me. Sorcerers summoning demons is...never a big deal. People play Infernals like they're just Solars/Abyssals with more ridiculous Charms.

I suppose I'm more tired with the way the fanbase deals with the Yozis than with how White Wolf does it. I dunno. Maybe I'm just not playing the right games.

[tonberrian]

I've read every Exalted book except for Broken-Winged Crane. The only things I like about demons are some of the specific demons they've written up, which are perfectly freakish and bizarre. It's the relationship that demons seem to have with Exalted that bug me. Sorcerers summoning demons is...never a big deal. People play Infernals like they're just Solars/Abyssals with more ridiculous Charms.

I suppose I'm more tired with the way the fanbase deals with the Yozis than with how White Wolf does it. I dunno. Maybe I'm just not playing the right games.

What, we're not allowed to enjoy our transhumanity?

More seriously, what exactly is your issue with the fanbase and Infernals?

[DeadManSleeping]

The entire idea of the Infernal Exaltation has just been treated in such a blase manner that I now find the entire affair distasteful. I've seen endless complaints on how Lillun was a poor piece of writing, even though it fits in just fine with the horrid alien obscenity that Hell is supposed to be. I've yet to see a single Infernal played like they're terribly different from a Solar who's also using Yozi magic.

And, if you ask me, the Things From Beyond fit in just fine with Exalted. It's okay if the PCs get to go toe-to-toe with them, but it really just diminishes the sense of accomplishment if it turns out that the horrible universe-destroying things don't seem threatening or horrible or universe-destroying.

[Drascin]

What?

The Yozis are portrayed as a bunch of insane, crippled monsters with alien mindsets. Understandable alien mindsets, but still alien.

Really, Yozis as I've seen them interpreted (note I came into Exalted a couple months before Alchemicals hit) are pretty much personifications of various human neuroses. They are not really portrayed as all that alien. Just bigger - Malfeas is The Angriest Dude, and nobody is angrier than him, but his emotion is anger, which we understand, at an event that would have angered any human, which we also understand, vented by shouting at people and crushing stuff, which is also a perfectly human reaction.

Also mentally crippled. Yozis as I've seen them are not really awe-inspiring. They're mostly pathetic, with variance going from contemptible to pitiable.

EDIT:

I've yet to see a single Infernal played like they're terribly different from a Solar who's also using Yozi magic.

Yeah, Infernals seem to suffer from a bit of Drizz't syndrome - nearly all Infernals are actually good dudes who just want the best for Creation and to hero it up with the other Exalts, and almost none are really willing to go with the Reclamation at all. It's gotten to the point where a loyalist Infernal is the rarity and the exotic option, instead of the reverse, amusingly enough