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  1. - Top - End - #961
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    I've yet to see a solar use yozi magic at all.

    Honestly, its nothing more than personal preference. Just like some people feel that DBZ is the single largest piece of cap in anime.
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  2. - Top - End - #962
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    The biggest piece of cap ever.

    DMS, I think the deal here is that you've mostly seem Devil-Tigers and not Reclamationists, maybe?

    And we do have examples of Solars using Yozi Charms... Akuma.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by AThousandWords View Post
    The biggest piece of cap ever.
    Like I said, personal view.
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  4. - Top - End - #964
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    It was... do you... never mind.

  5. - Top - End - #965
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Making ATW speechless: priceless.

    For.everything else, there's Wyld Shaping Technique.
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  6. - Top - End - #966
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Guys, while I personally think your opinions on Infernals and the Yozi are largely misinformed and suffer from heavy confirmation bias in some instances, I want you to know that I still respect your opinions enough to roll over them with a giant katamari ball.


  7. - Top - End - #967
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    The entire idea of the Infernal Exaltation has just been treated in such a blase manner that I now find the entire affair distasteful.
    I'm really not seeing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    I've yet to see a single Infernal played like they're terribly different from a Solar who's also using Yozi magic.
    Oh, really? Clarify, for me, please, how an Infernal using Yozi magic should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    And, if you ask me, the Things From Beyond fit in just fine with Exalted.
    The Yozis aren't the Things From Beyond, though; the closest one to that is Oramus - really, it'd be safer to call the Fair Folk such.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    It's okay if the PCs get to go toe-to-toe with them, but it really just diminishes the sense of accomplishment if it turns out that the horrible universe-destroying things don't seem threatening or horrible or universe-destroying.
    Uhh, the Yozis aren't supposed to be all that threatening or universe-destroying. They lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    It's gotten to the point where a loyalist Infernal is the rarity and the exotic option, instead of the reverse, amusingly enough
    Well, part of that is because logically, Green Sun Princes have every reason to betray their Yozi "masters." Still, if you're that interested in it, you might look at my own Infernals game; so far, the group's not mounted any big rebellion against the forces of Malfeas.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    Guys, while I personally think your opinions on Infernals and the Yozi are largely misinformed and suffer from heavy confirmation bias in some instances, I want you to know that I still respect your opinions enough to roll over them with a giant katamari ball.
    So, not much, then .

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Generally speaking, becoming a devil-tiger is the absolute most attractive option available to Infernals. The fact that doing so pisses off the Yozis regardless of whether or not the individual Infernal actually supports the Reclamation tends to force characters to rebel regardless, leading to the case of every drow dual-wielding scimitars. Of course, there's also the fact that anyone can see that the Reclamation is a Very Bad Idea, though not as much as Abyssals with the whole "kill everything" objective. On the other hand, the Abyssal goal is moderately fun to play out, while the Infernal one is much less so. It's just no fun to follow the idiotic whims of some vast cosmic loser in the hopes of screwing over not just the world, but yourself as well in the long run.

    To counterbalance how much playing a Loyalist sucks in vanilla, my campaign also features the Celadon Faction of Sidereals, who support the "Restoration," namely attempting to fix the Yozis. Something like that lets players stay loyal to the cause without deliberately making dumb decisions in character. Of course, I ended up not having any Infernals in the party, but one of the players has expressed interest OOC because it makes a good extension for his (eventually) redeemed Abyssal to try to redeem someone else. Well, that and because I wrote a Solar Charm that lets the user force itself into a Primordial's soul hierarchy as a new fetich.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    Guys, while I personally think your opinions on Infernals and the Yozi are largely misinformed and suffer from heavy confirmation bias in some instances, I want you to know that I still respect your opinions enough to roll over them with a giant katamari ball.

    What's wrong with all the words in that picture?

  11. - Top - End - #971
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Oh, really? Clarify, for me, please, how an Infernal using Yozi magic should be.
    Well, to be a valid candidate for an Infernal Exaltation, you have to go through what is essentially a traumatic event. You have the chance to do something great, but instead you wuss out and watch as your world falls to pieces around you because of it. Afterwards, you're offered a chance at redemption. You take it, and then you're attacked by some mysterious force which seals you in a chrysalis for five days. When you emerge, you're in some horrifying alien city, with horrific beings that you could never even begin to imagine. Oh, and it turns out your mind has been torn asunder and implanted with the unwavering urge to make life Hell for every being you once considered yourself to be the same race as. And it turns out you're working for these horrible things. And part of you really, really wants to. And another part knows that horrors await you if you choose not to, for you will have the ire of both Heaven and Hell.

    So, in short, the average Infernal should be something along the lines of a combination of a sociopath, a schizophrenic, a paranoid, and a trauma victim. Who just happens to be given access to ridiculously powerful magic. And will never be able to stop the voice in their head that forces them to hate.

    The Yozis aren't the Things From Beyond
    And they were originally written up like they were, what with the time-bending stuff and the alien form and all the other things. That's the first point I made.

    Uhh, the Yozis aren't supposed to be all that threatening or universe-destroying. They lost.
    That certainly doesn't sound like something worth putting in my Ridiculously Epic Game.

    Well, part of that is because logically, Green Sun Princes have every reason to betray their Yozi "masters."
    Except, once again, the Urge to destroy, and the Yozis helping them do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gensh
    Generally speaking, becoming a devil-tiger is the absolute most attractive option available to Infernals
    I haven't read BWC, but isn't the whole "becoming my own Yozi" thing supposed to be, y'know, something that nobody knows is actually possible?

  12. - Top - End - #972
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    It's generally agreed that Infernals Chapters 1 and 2 don't exist, I believe. That said, Revlid has an interesting view of the Failure prereq: it has to be tied to a Virtue or Willpower. All of the canon GSPs line up to one, in his analysis.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    I haven't read BWC, but isn't the whole "becoming my own Yozi" thing supposed to be, y'know, something that nobody knows is actually possible?
    I've never seen that ever stop a player from coming up with a half-baked excuse as to how their character discovers plot device X. Plus, heretical Charms aren't specifically hard to find in general. Harder than just asking someone in the know how to get a certain Yozi Charm, certainly, but it's an awful lot like finding two swords and realizing that you can tape them together into a double-bladed sword - which is awesome and should be done again and again without telling anyone. It takes a special kind of person to do it, but the actual effort involved is nil. From then on, it's not a really big jump from "hey, I can put things together with duct tape" to "I bet I can make stuff out of raw duct tape."

  14. - Top - End - #974
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    Quote Originally Posted by AThousandWords View Post
    It's generally agreed that Infernals Chapters 1 and 2 don't exist, I believe.
    And what, exactly, has come to replace them? Without those chapters, Infernals really do seem to be left as Solars who use different magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    When you emerge, you're in some horrifying alien city, with horrific beings that you could never even begin to imagine.
    I'll stop you right there, and here's why.

    1) No, you're not. Wherever you went into your chrysalis, that's where you emerge. Your Unwoven Coadjutor can try and persuade you to go to the Demon City after that, but it can't compel you.

    2) This isn't Lovecraft; while not everyone gets to personally see one in their lifetime, this is a world where most people know demons exist. Sure, it's an alien place with alien people with alien mindsets, but it's not sanity-shattering.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    Oh, and it turns out your mind has been torn asunder and implanted with the unwavering urge to make life Hell for every being you once considered yourself to be the same race as.
    Or your Urge could be to kill Lytek. Or to help weaken the Wyld Hunt's efforts in the North. And really, it's debatable as to how sanity-shattering your Urge is; my viewpoint would be "not at all - it's a second, albeit artificially-imposed Motivation."

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    And it turns out you're working for these horrible things.
    If they're so horrible, why don't you rebel?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    And part of you really, really wants to.
    Generally, for the Green Sun Princes, their Urge is specifically not just "work for Malfeas," or "work for Ebby." It makes a point out of how doing that could shoot the Yozis in the foot. They chose to give you autonomy.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    And another part knows that horrors await you if you choose not to, for you will have the ire of both Heaven and Hell.
    Will you? Heck, I bet heaven would be plenty excited to hear about these "Top-Secret Yozi Escape Plans."

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    So, in short, the average Infernal should be something along the lines of a combination of a sociopath, a schizophrenic, a paranoid, and a trauma victim.
    With no offense intended toward you, that sounds like a terrible character to play.

    Again, no offense intended, but a splat has to be playable without the players slitting their wrists afterward.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    That certainly doesn't sound like something worth putting in my Ridiculously Epic Game.
    Then realize that they're not supposed to be the big fancy villains of the setting - they really aren't. Again, they had their chance, and they lost. Much more interesting, IMO, are the things that happened as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    Except, once again, the Urge to destroy, and the Yozis helping them do it.
    Or, you know, an Urge to set up a chain of candied locust shops.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-06-29 at 06:47 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #976
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    If you're just going to have a character be unaffected by alien weirdness, not care about the Yozis, and not want to destroy Creation, why make them an Infernal at all? Your entire argument seems to be that Infernals should not be played like they are even related to the Yozis, which is my problem with them in the first place.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    And what, exactly, has come to replace them? Without those chapters, Infernals really do seem to be left as Solars who use different magic.
    No idea, mate. I haven't really looked at them much.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    If they're so horrible, why don't you rebel?
    But that's sooo mainstream, frood.

  18. - Top - End - #978
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Or, you know, an Urge to set up a chain of candied locust shops.
    I want to meet this infernal.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    The locusts are actually grasshoppers!
    Mwahahahahahah!

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Even with Urges, only a fifth have destroying as the basis of their urge. Hell, Ophidian Urges are pretty much the opposite of that, corrupting instead of destroying.
    Last edited by Volthawk; 2011-06-29 at 06:58 PM.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    If you're just going to have a character be unaffected by alien weirdness, not care about the Yozis, and not want to destroy Creation, why make them an Infernal at all? Your entire argument seems to be that Infernals should not be played like they are even related to the Yozis, which is my problem with them in the first place.
    The Yozi don't want to destroy Creation, they want to conquer it.

    An Infernal is mentally re-adjusted a bit towards the mindset of their Yozi patron. This is different from Solars, in that a Solar is guided by his highest virtues. An Infernal has the mental Urge placed on them by their Yozi.

    You're looking at this in too much of a narrow mindset.
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  22. - Top - End - #982
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    If you're just going to have a character be unaffected by alien weirdness, not care about the Yozis, and not want to destroy Creation, why make them an Infernal at all? Your entire argument seems to be that Infernals should not be played like they are even related to the Yozis, which is my problem with them in the first place.
    First off, no infernal (loyalist or rebel) wants to destroy creation. Most of them want to be running it in some way or another, whether behind their glorious yozi masters or instead of them. That said, I think infernals should be tied to the yozis. They do always have that voice in the back of their head urging them to advance the yozi's plots, both as an urge and as a coadjutator. That said, they shouldn't stop being their own person. They were solars who might have been, given solar level power. That takes some mighty impressive personality and motivation, and isn't the sort of thing that gets stamped out by a couple of lunatics with an essence scalpel as easily as you imply, even before dousing it in the rebellious essence of the Ebon Dragon or the chaotic freedom loving of Adorjan.
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  23. - Top - End - #983
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping View Post
    If you're just going to have a character be unaffected by alien weirdness,
    Well, there's a wide spectrum between 'going mad from the revelation' and 'being entirely unaffected.' Infernals will be weird. They will have seen weird things, but the key is that the weird things love them, sing their praises, and throw them parades. The ridiculously alien place is either their hangout, their boss or both at the same time.

    That is a very good start for getting your guy adjusted to the weirdness. And since it's all concentrated together in a way few people have seen or heard about before, sooner or later they'll just assume "oh, that typhoon of ecstasy over there must just be another Yozi thing" and update their daily weirdness tally.

    not care about the Yozis,
    A lot of rebels care intensely about the Yozis. Maybe they want to never, ever let them out again, maybe they want to reform and reforge them, maybe they want to let out very specific ones (had a Defiler once who wanted to let out She Who Lives and absolutely no one else). Totally different goals, but the Reclamation wouldn't stand for any of that.

    and not want to destroy Creation,
    The Yozis don't want to destroy Creation either. They want to make it into something fundamentally unrecognizable, but it'll still be there when they're done.

    why make them an Infernal at all?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    I want to meet this infernal.
    I'm going back to reclaim my candied locust shop, and I'm going to play Gateway every day.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    I'm going back to reclaim my candied locust shop, and I'm going to play Gateway every day.
    I approve of this so hard it isn't even funny. Please tell me he's a master of Fire Dragon Style as well...
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
    Leiningen will win, even if he must lose in the attempt.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by AThousandWords View Post
    It's generally agreed that Infernals Chapters 1 and 2 don't exist, I believe. That said, Revlid has an interesting view of the Failure prereq: it has to be tied to a Virtue or Willpower. All of the canon GSPs line up to one, in his analysis.
    well THATS annoying, only a part of chapter one is printed in my copy and chapter 2 is completely printed over by repeats of the part of chapter 1 I have, all they way until chapter 3, so I don't even know what fluff I'm supposed to agree that doesn't exist, when it doesn't exist in my book! it might as well forever be in existence forever for me, immortal in its unknownity.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    well THATS annoying, only a part of chapter one is printed in my copy and chapter 2 is completely printed over by repeats of the part of chapter 1 I have, all they way until chapter 3, so I don't even know what fluff I'm supposed to agree that doesn't exist, when it doesn't exist in my book! it might as well forever be in existence forever for me, immortal in its unknownity.
    You're copy got touched by the ED.
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  28. - Top - End - #988
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Did you download it illegally or something?

  29. - Top - End - #989
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    the question being of whether thats a good thing or a bad thing.

    edit: and no, I didn't download it illegally! I ordered it online!

    oh and: deadmansleeping, we already have what you are looking for. its called Abyssals, they do the "evil traumatized champion of unknowable cosmic horrors, who have to do their bidding or SUFFER!" thing.

    Infernals are the "hey guys, these stupid primordial people gave us their power now we can totally do this weird stuff nobody else can do, lets party! locusts are on me!" people
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2011-06-29 at 07:57 PM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I approve of this so hard it isn't even funny. Please tell me he's a master of Fire Dragon Style as well...
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    This charm (inspired by Lix) for Fire Dragon Expansions.

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