Warhammer 40K Tabletop XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"

[Craftworld]

AFAIK, it's still alive.

Where would one such as I find it?

[Tome]

Where would one such as I find it?

Guess what the first result on Google for "Vassal 40k" is?

This. Just scroll down a bit to find the most recent release.

[Craftworld]

Guess what the first result on Google for "Vassal 40k" is?

This. Just scroll down a bit to find the most recent release.

I think that I have been here before and I was unable to get it...and Vassal 40k is safe virus/malware/cookie wise correct? Just got out of a similar situation with something like this.

[pilvento]

Hi fellas, suddenly I had an urgenci to play a space marine army in the name of the emperor.

So I came up with this...

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White Scars 1500pts
In the name of the emperero, we shall hunt, for VENGANCE!

HQ 550
Korsario Khan
Comand Squad
Bikes
Chapter Standard
Power Sword x2
Power Fist x2
Storm Shield x3

Elites 340
Sternguard Veteran
Power Weapon
Combi-melta

Sternguard Veteran
Power Weapon
Combi-melta

Transports 180
Razorback
Lascanons
Extra Armour

Razorback 180
Lascanons
Extra Armour

Troops 430
Scout Squad
Sniper rifles
Camo cloacks
Misile Launcher

Bike Squad
2 Aditional Bikes
Power Fist

Bike Squad
2 Aditional Bikes
Power Fist

Total 1500

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All the army can outflank
Veterans have the razorbacks as dedicated transport
The powerfist bikes can go transport hunting, (i have the lasscannons for big stuff)

The super expensive khan + comand squad have:
Outflank
Furious Charge
Hit n Run
Feel no pain
Can run in bike (khan only)
Fleet of foot (khan only)
4 attacks each + charge
3+ invul save from 3 shields
2 powerfists

Its my first space marine list, please fell free to advice me as much as u can

[Closet_Skeleton]

HQ
Korsario Khan 205
Honor Guard 115
Bikes 90
Chapter Standard 15
Power Sword x2 30
Power Fist x2 50
Storm Shield x3 45

You mean command squad with a company standard. Honour guard get the chapter banner but Kor'sorro doesn't get them and they can't ride bikes.

Also only list the points totals not the whole sum.

Bike squads also need to have at least 5 members before Kor'sorro (or any other bike captain) can make them troops.

Transports should be listed under the unit they're taken for or otherwise clearly assigned to that unit. Even if they're identical and it doesn't matter that much.

Youcouldjustblahusedroppodsblahalwaystakepowerfist sblahblah blah but copying other people's lists just because they're more optimal isn't always that fun and I don't feel like repeating over said advice.

[pilvento]

yes, my bad, i meant comando squad ill edit

true, i misreaded that las rule about the bikes 5 man squad, first time reading the codex

[Closet_Skeleton]

The super expensive khan + honor guard squad have:

Can run in bike
Fleet of foot

Sorry, but only the Khan gets those, his unit doesn't get them even if he joins them. This doesn't really matter since you want you bikes firing relentless rapid fire guns all the time anyway and the Khan can just leave the unit in the movement phase if he needs to take advantage of those.

[pilvento]

Sorry, but only the Khan gets those, his unit doesn't get them even if he joins them. This doesn't really matter since you want you bikes firing relentless rapid fire guns all the time anyway and the Khan can just leave the unit in the movement phase if he needs to take advantage of those.

True, its not really a big problem.
The army in general, what do u think about it, solid? competitive?

[Nameless Ghost]

Hi fellas, suddenly I had an urgenci to play a space marine army in the name of the emperor.

So I came up with this...

Spoiler

Show

White Scars 1500pts
In the name of the emperero, we shall hunt, for VENGANCE!

HQ 550
Korsario Khan
Comand Squad
Bikes
Chapter Standard
Power Sword x2
Power Fist x2
Storm Shield x3
Command Squads on Bikes are a powerful unit, though have been fairly lackluster in my experience. I've only played a handful of games with them, however.

At 1500 points, you're sinking a lot of points into one unit. It may be on bikes, but it's still fairly easy to avoid, feed blockers or otherwise remove or ignore. It's generally suggested that people run 2 such units at 2000 points. I've got 1 in my army at 1750, and it really, really eats into the options for other things.

As for the config, you want to take advantage of the ability to spam melta and plasma. Firing 4 meltaguns at a tank is far more effective than hitting it with some power fist attacks. You only really need one fist/hammer in the unit. For the most part, Lightning claws are more effective than Power weapons.

Fully equipping the unit, I'd go with:
3x Lightning claws
1x Thunder hammer
4x Meltaguns/Plasma guns
4x Storm shields
1x Apothecary who doesn't understand such things as 'wargear'

Elites 340
Sternguard Veteran
Power Weapon
Combi-melta

Sternguard Veteran
Power Weapon
Combi-melta
I don't really see the point in these. Like with the command squad, you want to be spamming special/combi weapons. Sternguard don't need Power weapons because they want to be shooting and not hitting things in combat.

Transports 180
Razorback
Lascanons
Extra Armour

Razorback 180
Lascanons
Extra Armour
The Twin-linked plasma gun and Lascannon Razorback is superior to the standard one for the same points. Extra armour isn't needed, because Razorbacks don't really want to be moving, but instead providing fire support.
For this reason, Rhinos are a better option for outflanking mech (see below).

Troops 430
Scout Squad
Sniper rifles
Camo cloacks
Misile Launcher
Scouts aren't really needed in this kind of list. Why take Scouts when you have outflanking Bikes? You don't want to outflank the Scouts, so are you deploying them on the table alone? They're not going to last long, in that case.

Bike Squad
2 Aditional Bikes
Power Fist

Bike Squad
2 Aditional Bikes
Power Fist
Your bike squads should be equipped with 2 Meltaguns or 2 Flamers. A Power fist isn't really necessary. Multi-melta Attack bikes are definitely worth adding to the unit in place of one of the additional bikes. 2 Meltaguns and a Multi-melta in a Relentless unit with a 12" move is just horrible.

Total 1500

The problem with your list is that it hardly has any scoring bodies and is trying to do too many things at once. You don't really have the points to run a command squad deathstar effectively unless you build an army it can effectively support. And you can't run an army with just 2 vehicles and expect them to survive past the turn they hit the table.

If you want to run Khan, you should either go all bikes, or all outflanking mech.

For the bike army, it's worth running a command squad, even if it's just a cheaper variation, then you spam out on bike squads with special weapons and attack bikes.

A major weakness of 'deathstar' units like Hammernators in a Raider or a command squad is that they can only be in one place at a time. You usually alleviate this by running multiple deathstars. Because Khan's squad can Hit & Run, it's very difficult to tie it down and it can easily cross the table and get where it needs to be, so it's actually possible to get away with running

For mech, you want Tacticals in Rhinos, Khan on foot in a Razor or Raider. You can throw in an outflanking Land Raider if you really want too. Sternguard work fairly well outflanking because you can drive on and shoot things with your special weapons out of Rhino firepoints.

[Tome]

I think that I have been here before and I was unable to get it...and Vassal 40k is safe virus/malware/cookie wise correct? Just got out of a similar situation with something like this.

Yeah, I've used it myself and it's fine. The link is on the right hand side, under "Vassal 40k Versions". Kinda easy to miss.

Here, I'll copy/paste it for you.

[DaedalusMkV]

So... I've found myself with a lot of free time recently, and I've been thinking about working on a codex redesign project; specifically, I'm thinking of doing a Tau "fan codex" to update it to 5th edition and bring it in line with the rest of the armies, and hosting it on our very own Homebrew section. Would anyone else here be interested in participating in such a project, especially in providing feedback and, if possible, playtesting to help get the kinks out of the list? I know from experience that one person can't do one of these effectively, no matter how well they think they know the game, so I'd be happy for anyone who wanted to help to join in, especially those who aren't Tau players.

[Irbis]

Am I mistaken, or are DA, BT and DE Codices in the OP referring to previous editions, making them completely misleading for new players?

[Squark]

Am I mistaken, or are DA, BT and DE Codices in the OP referring to previous editions, making them completely misleading for new players?

Technically, all the old marine codexes do have a note that tells you they're outdated. The Dark Eldar one still needs one, though.

[Irbis]

Technically, all the old marine codexes do have a note that tells you they're outdated.

Um, but they are not, anymore. The FAQ that came half a year ago completely changed the way they're played, lifting them to maybe not 5th edition, but 4.75th. Yet, the "advice" still warns you to not take what there are now best BT units, for one...

Say, these three gems from quick glance at BT only:

Anyone who thinks Black Templars are underpowered either likes using the things that makes them underpowered:

C) Cyclone/Typhoon Missile Launchers

And they also have the old Smoke Launchers which makes all hits Glancing Hits instead of just giving a Cover Save.

Also, they have the bad kind of Storm Shields. And the bad Cyclone and Typhoon Missile Launchers. Nobody really takes these things competitively in Codex Marines or Space Wolves anyway. Assault Cannons are where it's at.

Not to mention part about AC being wrong, IMHO, 5th Ed or not, which goes double for BT and their general lack of long range guns.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The dark eldar advice there might be out of date codex wise but it isn't really inaccurate. It doesn't go into enough depth to bring out anything that doesn't exist anymore and the new dark eldar aren't really that differant in the end so its really just missing out power from pain and haemonuculus armies.

[Irbis]

The dark eldar advice there might be out of date codex wise but it isn't really inaccurate. It doesn't go into enough depth to bring out anything that doesn't exist anymore and the new dark eldar aren't really that differant in the end so its really just missing out power from pain and haemonuculus armies.

*shrug* sure, which is why I haven't mentioned it back in previous 2 threads, but... Now, half a year later, this advice should be updated, or if even this is too much effort bad bits should be crossed. It misses all the new stuff, 1/2 of a Codex, making it akin to SM description missing Hammernators, ATSKNF, Combat Tactics and Sternguard, while containing hearty endorsement of Vanguards, IMHO.

Sorry, new players can't really say what is accurate or not, and would take the advice as a whole - and I still remember how bad for a new player it can be :/

<Goes back to lurking>

[Tome]

So... I've found myself with a lot of free time recently, and I've been thinking about working on a codex redesign project; specifically, I'm thinking of doing a Tau "fan codex" to update it to 5th edition and bring it in line with the rest of the armies, and hosting it on our very own Homebrew section. Would anyone else here be interested in participating in such a project, especially in providing feedback and, if possible, playtesting to help get the kinks out of the list? I know from experience that one person can't do one of these effectively, no matter how well they think they know the game, so I'd be happy for anyone who wanted to help to join in, especially those who aren't Tau players.

I may have some work of my own along these lines that I wouldn't mind contributing.

[Cheesegear]

The dark eldar advice there might be out of date codex wise but it isn't really inaccurate. It doesn't go into enough depth to bring out anything that doesn't exist anymore and the new dark eldar aren't really that differant in the end so its really just missing out power from pain and haemonuculus armies.

Yep. I edited it when I re-did the thread and removed all the parts about old models and old codecies and instead change it to how I think they're now the best models in the hobby. The Power From Pain I didn't mention because it's the first thing you read in the Codex, and I'm not really in the habit of writing things that you find out immediately after opening the Codex.

Originally posted by Irbis
*shrug* sure, which is why I haven't mentioned it back in previous 2 threads, but... Now, half a year later, this advice should be updated, or if even this is too much effort bad bits should be crossed.

/sigh. Every. Time.

So, you've been sitting on that gem for 2 threads now? Thanks for reminding me. I mean, obviously, because its been updated all the time I'm clearly in the habit of remembering about it. Even though it totally says that if anyone has any comments on it they should tell me.

Or, of course, since you're such a better player than me (right? That's what I infer that you believe whenever you write...Anything responding to my posts), you could always take some initiative and write it yourself? Just copy-paste the old ones into a new post and edit it. Because, as I've explained about a dozen times already, those older posts are part of locked threads and can't be edited. which means, 'bad bits' can't be crossed out.

No? Don't remind me of anything and just wait for me do it despite that fact that I obviously haven't done it in a long time? Fair enough.

[Cheesegear]

Black Templars
You will need to print out the FAQ.

Special Rules:

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Right, so, Black Templars don't get First Turn Drop Pods. As far as I'm aware, they don't really need it as they have no squads in their list that could truly take advantage of it (well, maybe a Dreadnought).

BTs have the ability to take Chaplains that don't take up any FO Slots. You kind of do have to pay for the Command Squad though. And, the Chaplain can only join that one squad. Still, you can end up taking up to four Chaplains in your army.

Slightly bad, is that BT Infantry take Morale checks when they take one Casualty from Shooting, not from 25%. However, if they pass this check, they move forwards. Given the fact that you should have Chaplains, you should be Fearless and you pass the check.
Even then, BTs have ATSKNF.
BTs are Fearless in Assault. Neat.

Wargear:

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Right, so, BTs don't get Iron Halos, Close Combat Weapons, Bolt Pistols and Frag and Krak Grenades for free. That kind of sucks. And single Lightning Claws and Artificer Armour are a tad more expensive.
(LC Pairs are exactly the same though)

BTs also don't have access to Relic Blades. Hellfire Rounds or Auxillary 'Nade Launchers.

They do get Master-Crafted Weapons (pretty much Digital Weapons, except you can put them on Ranged Weapons as well), Auspecies and Bionics. Also, they get access to Holy Hand Grenades of Antioch.
12", Poisoned (2+), AP3 {Assault, Blast, One Shot}.

Also, their Iron Halos cost points. But, on the plus side, you can give them to anyone you want.

However, they have access to Terminator Honours. And their Terminator Armour grants +1 Attack.

Their Land Raider Crusaders have access to an upgrade that makes Lance waeapons not work.

The Army List:

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The Marshall
So, the Marshall doesn't get a bunch of stuff for free. Okay. But, he also costs less points to begin with. He also only has WS5. But, gives everyone on the board Ld 10. So, you pass those checks when you get shot at fairly easily and run forwards like Champions!

The Emperor's Champion
Right...He comes with a one-handed Relic Blade and Bolt Pistol (+1 Attack), Grenades, Artificer Armour, an Invulnerable save in Assault (where he should be), but not against ranged attacks () and the statline of a Codex Marine Chaplain, with WS6. All for 90 points.
For a few more points he either;
Gives all BTs +1S, -1I in Assault.
Gives all BTs a 6+ Invulnerable Save, and makes them all immune to Pinning. However, all BTs lose all cover saves (like they need it? They should be in Assault).
Makes any psychic power targeted at any BT unit fail on 5+. Or,
Gives all BTs Preferred Enemy

And, although the EC doesn't take up an FO Slot (4 Chaplains, 1 Emperor's Champion ), he still counts towards the 1 HQ minimum needed to make a legal army.

Chaplains:
Right, since BTs are 4th Ed, they have different level Chaplains. You can have the one that's better and cheaper than a Codex Marine Captain. Or the one that's better and cheaper than a Codex Marine Chaplain. Take your pick.

Command Squads:
Due to being a 4th Ed. Command Squad, they have to be attached to an Independent Character. However, you can have up to 10 of them. And, they grant one of Furious Charge, Counter-Attack or Infiltrate to your Character attached to them.
Also, Command Squads can have Chaplains attached to them that take up no FO Slot.
They can also take Land Raider Crusaders as Transports.

Terminators:
Cheap Assault Cannons, and cheaper Cyclone Missile Launchers. Only by 5 points, but, every bit counts. That, and you can take two of even if you don't have 10 models.
Oh, and you can give them Furious Charge or Tank Hunters.

Assault Terminators:
Furious Charge or Tank Hunters.

Any Terminator Squad can take a LRC Transport. Not just one.

Sword Brethren:
I'd actually give them a pass if it wasn't for the fact that they can take Terminator Honours and Infiltrate.
I also think this is the only unit in the army that can't take a LRC Transport.

Dreadnoughts:
Cheaper Weapon Options. Cheaper Venerable Dreadnoughts. No Ironclads.
Furious Charge or Tank Hunter.

Techmarines:
More expensive. But have extra wounds and more attacks. But, a worse save (can be made better for a rather ridiculous amount of points). Techmarines are probably the worst thing in the Codex in comparison to Codex Marines.

Crusader Squads:
Pretty damn good. Can trade their Bolters for Bolt Pistol and Combat Wepaons (and you should, always). Also can have Heavy/Special weapons when the squad is only 5-strong.

Having no Scouts is kind of crap. But, you can put 'Scouts' in your Crusader squads for 10 points, and use them as Ablative Saves for your Power Armour Troops.
Take LRCs as Transports. Enjoy.

50 point Rhinos.
70 point Razorbacks.
Who cares? You're taking Land Raider Crusaders instead.

They have cheap Drop Pods. But, they only take 10/5 models or a Dreadnought. Their Deathwind Launchers have AP6 which will at least kill Orks and Tyranids.
But, Drop Pods only have BS2. But, they also have Machine Spirit and can fire on the turn they land. Pity that the turn they land in is not Turn 1.

Assault Squads:
Cheaper (at least in the beginning) than the Codex Marine counterparts.
Cheap Flamers and Plasma Pistols. That you can take two of even if you don't have 10 models.
The entire squad can take Melta Bombs.

Land Speeders:
Multi-Meltas are more expensive.
Cheaper Assault Cannons.
Ridiculously cheap Typhoon Launchers.

Bikes:
Slightly more expensive.
But, made up for the fact that you can have cheaper Flamers and Plasmaguns.
Meltaguns are the same cost. But, you can have three of them.

Attack Bikes:
More expensive. Even more expensive to give them a Multi-Melta.

Vindicator:
Slightly more expensive. But, can take Machine Spirit. Always fire the Ordnance Weapon.

Predators:
More expensive than Autocannon + Heavy Bolters.
Less expensive than Triple-Lascannons.
Can also take Machine Spirit

Land Raiders:
Same points cost. But, only carries 10/5. Which makes it even worse than the regular one.

Land Raider Crusaders:
Costs the same as a Codex Marine Crusader, if you had taken Extra Armour. Which, in the BT Codex, you are forced to have. However, the Multi-Melta comes free.
Also carries 15/8, which is odd.
Can take an upgrade that makes them immune to the Lance effect. But, not the Melta effect - which is what you really want.

TL;DR Final Thoughts

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If you like Chaplains; Black Templars are great.
If you like Terminators; Black Templars are great.
If you like Assault Squads; Black Templars are great.
If you like Bikes; Black Templars are great.
If you like Land Speeders; Black Templars are great.
If you like Land Raiders; Black Templars are the best ever.

Black Templars are dead killy against most Infatry units. However, Mech is King, and BTs actually have some fairly decent anti-tank units.
(Cheap) Dual-Cyclone Terminators with Tank Hunters, (cheap) Lascannon Dreads with Tank Hunters, or Thunder Hammers/Power Fists with Furious Charge or units with multiple Meltaguns (Bikes for the Biker Throne), or 10 Assault Marines all with (cheap) Melta Bombs, or all your LRCs with Multi-Meltas should take care of anything.

You can have total 11 Land Raider Crusaders and 3 Land Raiders (for the Lascannons)...

Please tell me if you have something you would like me to add.
REMEMBER: This is not a competitive guide. It only outlines the differences and main benefits of playing Black Templars over Codex Marines.

[Craftworld]

Yeah, I've used it myself and it's fine. The link is on the right hand side, under "Vassal 40k Versions". Kinda easy to miss.

Here, I'll copy/paste it for you.

That was the area it sent me to last time and where the virus/malware thing attacked me from...I don't trust it. Oh well, no Vassal for me.
It being what I talked about earlier.

[DaedalusMkV]

I may have some work of my own along these lines that I wouldn't mind contributing.

I'd appreciate that greatly. I'm working on a framework now, I'll start up a thread over on the Homebrew forum some time soon. Mostly what I'm looking for is some people to second-guess my work, take a look and make sure I don't do anything out of line. I totally appreciate help in the brainstorming and development phases too, though.

[Ricky S]

Hey everyone. I want to get another anti tank unit since my army is lacking in such. I can't decide between another unit of bikes with multi-meltas, a las-cannon devastator squad or an ironclad in a drop pod.

I have a strong infantry theme so I am leaning towards the bikes or devastators. Any suggestions?

[Cheesegear]

Hey everyone. I want to get another anti tank unit since my army is lacking in such. I can't decide between another unit of bikes with multi-meltas, a las-cannon devastator squad or an ironclad in a drop pod.

I have a strong infantry theme so I am leaning towards the bikes or devastators. Any suggestions?

1. Lascannon Devastators are never good. Predators exist for that sort of thing. Or Missiles. Of course, with the Infantry theme, you may have to go with Lascannon Devastators...Not that it's any good, mind.

2. How many things in Drop Pods do you already have? Dreadnoughts - as vehicles - don't last very long in your opponent's DZ where Melta weapons are good to go from turn 1. So it's always nice to have alternate targets.

3. Another unit of Bikes? You really shouldn't need more than one unless you're going with a Captain-on-Bike. Or are you playing Blood Angels? I don't even know. Is it possible to split the difference and take Sternguard in Drop Pod? The other option is Land Speeders. Plural. Not just one. I can't really think of any Infantry-based anti-tank, really, except for Devastators and Suicide Sternguard.
Maybe Terminators if you've got the spare 460 points...

[Ricky S]

1. Lascannon Devastators are never good. Predators exist for that sort of thing. Or Missiles. Of course, with the Infantry theme, you may have to go with Lascannon Devastators...Not that it's any good, mind.

2. How many things in Drop Pods do you already have? Dreadnoughts - as vehicles - don't last very long in your opponent's DZ where Melta weapons are good to go from turn 1. So it's always nice to have alternate targets.

3. Another unit of Bikes? You really shouldn't need more than one unless you're going with a Captain-on-Bike. Or are you playing Blood Angels? I don't even know. Is it possible to split the difference and take Sternguard in Drop Pod? The other option is Land Speeders. Plural. Not just one. I can't really think of any Infantry-based anti-tank, really, except for Devastators and Suicide Sternguard.
Maybe Terminators if you've got the spare 460 points...

Hmmm... I guess it will have to be devastators. I play vanilla marines so more bikes are out. I dont have any other drop pods so the ironclad and sternguard are out. Land speeders are an idea but maybe I should just get a predator instead then. Or maybe two razorbacks with lascannons for the tactical squads. So many choices...

Models I currently have available are:

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-Librarian
-Captain
-5 Honour guard
-Command Squad
-20 Tactical marines with 2x plasma gun, 2x plasma cannon
-10 scouts with 1 missile launcher, 9 sniper rifles
-10 classic terminators with assault cannon, cyclone missile launcher
-Dreadnought with Multi-melta
-5 bikes with 2x melta gun, sarge with powerfist
-Attack Bike with Multi-melta
-Razorback
-9 devastators with 4x missile launcher, 2x heavy bolter, 2x las-cannon, sarge

[Cheesegear]

Hmmm... I guess it will have to be devastators. I play vanilla marines so more bikes are out. I dont have any other drop pods so the ironclad and sternguard are out. Land speeders are an idea but maybe I should just get a predator instead then. Or maybe two razorbacks with lascannons for the tactical squads. So many choices...

But Bikes are best with Vanilla Marines? ...Don't quite know what you're talking about.

Ironclad is out, but why Sternguard? The reason I want you to table the Ironclad is because Melta weapons are everywhere and the Ironclad doesn't really shoot a whole lot when it comes down. Although, looking at your list, there's a rather nice lack of cover-busting models.

Anyway, back to Sternguard, they shoot on the turn they come down - quite well, I might add - and one Melta-shot isn't going to kill them. Although, one pie plate might. However, if you're running Sterndrop, I would be hoping that your Sternguard would take out the biggest threat to themselves one way or another...Or have a Librarian with Force Dome.
Never underestimate the value of dropping your Librarian Psychic Hood in your enemy's Deployment Zone on turn one.

Razorbacks are really only good when you have a lot of them. FA11 really isn't that big of a deal. Especially when you're paying 75 points for it. Predators have FA13, which is kind of a big deal. Since Missiles don't even have an even chance to pop you.

[Borgh]

Cheese, I just wanted to say this: even though a certain poster may annoy you to the point of ad-hominem, you are still a great guy and the choose-your-army list in the OP is awesome.

[Ricky S]

But Bikes are best with Vanilla Marines? ...Don't quite know what you're talking about.

Ironclad is out, but why Sternguard? The reason I want you to table the Ironclad is because Melta weapons are everywhere and the Ironclad doesn't really shoot a whole lot when it comes down. Although, looking at your list, there's a rather nice lack of cover-busting models.

Anyway, back to Sternguard, they shoot on the turn they come down - quite well, I might add - and one Melta-shot isn't going to kill them. Although, one pie plate might. However, if you're running Sterndrop, I would be hoping that your Sternguard would take out the biggest threat to themselves one way or another...Or have a Librarian with Force Dome.
Never underestimate the value of dropping your Librarian Psychic Hood in your enemy's Deployment Zone on turn one.

Razorbacks are really only good when you have a lot of them. FA11 really isn't that big of a deal. Especially when you're paying 75 points for it. Predators have FA13, which is kind of a big deal. Since Missiles don't even have an even chance to pop you.

Ah sorry just my disconnected thoughts. You said that I shouldn't really need another unit of bikes. That was what I was refering to. I should have put a full stop at the end of the sentence "I play vanilla marines".

The ironclad would provide me with heavy flamers which would be nice against horde armies. The AV13 would also be able to stand up to a lot of punishment. But you are right about the meltas being a problem if you land close to the enemy. Sternguard would be good but they wouldn't last more than a turn without support. They would drop down, pop a tank then get killed. It would be a very different story if I had multiple drop pods but I dont so I think I will avoid them altogether.

I am probably going to go with a predator. Sit it at the edge of the board and use its long range.

[Tome]

Sternguard would be good but they wouldn't last more than a turn without support. They would drop down, pop a tank then get killed. It would be a very different story if I had multiple drop pods but I dont so I think I will avoid them altogether.

That's pretty much the way Sternguard should be used most of the time, from what I've gathered. Drop pod them in, melta something worth more points than them to death, probably die in the next turn. Maybe do some more shooting if they survive.

[Nameless Ghost]

Sternguard can also take advantage of their access to special/heavy weapons, rather than combis, and drive around hurting things from inside a Rhino. There is some merit to taking them solely for their special bolters, too.

Granted, these are just things I've seen other players doing, not that I have any experience with myself.

[Ricky S]

That's pretty much the way Sternguard should be used most of the time, from what I've gathered. Drop pod them in, melta something worth more points than them to death, probably die in the next turn. Maybe do some more shooting if they survive.

I would rather put them in a position where they dont just get killed. I mean they are from the 1st company. Sacrificing them seems like a pointless waste of some really skilled marines