Warhammer 40K Tabletop XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"

[Turcano]

The worst thing I've got in pewter is a Thunderfire Cannon that can't be put together because it doesn't fit due to the shrinking. So it seems like they've traded one set of problems for another.

[FlyingScanian]

I think the rules for allocating wounds on Complex Units (page 25 of the Main Rule Book) should solve this problem for you.

To paraphrase: Your opponent chooses which models in his unit are being wounded, so they decide whether to have the attack effect an ordinary Marine, or let his Librarian take the wound on a 2+/no save.

So for all intents and purposes, it's probably going to be s3 until all of the other Marines are dead.

Ah, but those rules are for allocating WOUNDS, which, not so surprisingly, happens after you've rolled to wound.

Though I'm bound to agree with the conclusion. The stake will be S3AP5 as long as there's SOMETHING else than a psyker in the unit you're firing on, sadly...

[Tarinaky]

Does that not make the stake a complete waste of time/points? I mean. Who takes Independent characters and not give them a unit?

Also: Ordo Xenos Rad Grenades are awesome yet underrated.

[Ninja Chocobo]

i thought they were switching to resin to make it cheaper!

Did...
Did you think they meant cheaper for you?
*guffaw*

Who told you that?

The pewter-ish metal they use is getting more expensive quickly. It is cheaper, for them, to use resin.
New moulds etc cost some money, true, but it's mostly extra profits on their part.

[Tome]

Does that not make the stake a complete waste of time/points? I mean. Who takes Independent characters and not give them a unit?

Also: Ordo Xenos Rad Grenades are awesome yet underrated.

There are units that consist entirely of Pskers. Eldar Seer Councils, pretty much anything in the Grey Knights Codex, IG Psker Battle Squads, lots of Tyranid MCs, etc.

But yeah, your odds of actually running into those make it only useful when list tailoring. Which is bad.

And yes, Rad Grenades are very nice. Same for Psychotroke Grenades. You can also get them on Grand Masters and Brother Captains.

[Wraith]

Ah, but those rules are for allocating WOUNDS, which, not so surprisingly, happens after you've rolled to wound.

I know, it's not a perfect answer but it's the best I could think of. The only other thing I could think of was to use the rules for Multiple Toughness Values (Page 19) which again doesn't quite give a direct answer, but suggests something very, very similar and making it s3 until there are no other Marines to shoot at.

Maybe the Witch Hunters Errata tells us how it works, but I don't have it to hand at the moment.

There are units that consist entirely of Pskers. Eldar Seer Councils, pretty much anything in the Grey Knights Codex, IG Psker Battle Squads, lots of Tyranid MCs, etc.

Well remembered. All I could think of was "Castallen Crowe from Codex: Grey Knights is a psyker an can't join units" but all of those make sense, too. Talk about not being able to see the forest for the trees!

[PanNarrans]

they are charging us $45 (CAD) for 5 models

£20.50 in the UK. I was ready to get all worked up about that before I looked at a currency converter, and saw how much worse it is for you.

Oh, I'll get worked up anyway. WHY IS A CORE UNIT NOT IN PLASTIC ARGLEBLARGH

[Cheesegear]

Oh, I'll get worked up anyway. WHY IS A CORE UNIT NOT IN PLASTIC ARGLEBLARGH

Because they're not really a core unit; Wracks are Elites.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I have to ask: What did you think of Draigo's performance in general? I've heard a lot of flak being sent his way, but have yet to see him actually make it onto the table in my area. I'm interested to hear a first hand account of how in/effective he is.

He gives a unit of paladins 4 eternal warrior storm shield wounds. This is very useful when his unit is being shot at by enemies that have only one or two AP1 weapons in the unit.

Using hammerhand three times on halberds is pretty nasty too.

2) Multi-Meltas are only anti-tank weapons at close range.

Depends on the tank. At long range they're still AP1 krak missiles.

If money is an issue, I'd suggest looking at the Ravenwing Battleforces for bikes. Providing you want the Speeder (albeit, the old one with few weapon options) and Attack bike), it saves a lot of money, specially if you can find somewhere that sells it discounted.

The ravenwing battleforce has the old speeder sprue but the ravenwing sprues it has three of has typhoon missiles and tornado assault cannons for it.

come to think of it Finecast (TM ) is making everything more expensive, god i hope they don't make kroxigors in finecast, it will break the bank. but seriously an 15% price increase for one model is ridiculous.

i thought they were switching to resin to make it cheaper!

A lot of the ogre sized models are being made cheaper by putting them in a box of 3 for £30.

They're switching to resin to make it cheaper to them. Or so that they don't have to raise the price on metals more than the finecast stuff would cost. Plus they just spent a ton on new molds.

[Wraith]

He gives a unit of paladins 4 eternal warrior storm shield wounds. This is very useful when his unit is being shot at by enemies that have only one or two AP1 weapons in the unit.

Using hammerhand three times on halberds is pretty nasty too.

So +1s in close combat and a 275pt fire magnet within what is probably already one of the most expensive units on the table?

To be honest, I had hoped for something more pro-active, but having said that I have seen far worse performed by characters that I thought far better

[lord_khaine]

Using hammerhand three times on halberds is pretty nasty too.

The question remains if that is doable though, or if hammerhand doesnt stack with itself.

[Winterwind]

So I remember hearing Forgeworld resin can be carcinogenic and should therefore be handled with care - what about the Finecast stuff, is that safe?

[Tarinaky]

So I remember hearing Forgeworld resin can be carcinogenic and should therefore be handled with care - what about the Finecast stuff, is that safe?

I think it's been mentioned that the finecast material is a plastic rather than a resin so it's probably no worse than the standard plastic figures.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The question remains if that is doable though, or if hammerhand doesnt stack with itself.

Hammerhand stacks with itself. Its mentioned in the book I think.

So +1s in close combat and a 275pt fire magnet within what is probably already one of the most expensive units on the table?

The main reason Draigo rarely kills his points is that his unit strikes at higher initiative and there's usually nothing left.

But there's a big differance between 5 Paladins losing a model to plasma every turn and Draigo losing a wound to plasma every other turn and the Paladins being fine taking their 2+ saves and feel no pain.

[Renegade Paladin]

The pewter-ish metal they use is getting more expensive quickly. It is cheaper, for them, to use resin.
New moulds etc cost some money, true, but it's mostly extra profits on their part.

Resins and plastics are also getting more expensive. I do indeed work in plastics manufacturing, as Cheesegear alluded to at the bottom of the last page, and materials costs are skyrocketing due to the increasing price of petroleum. I'm not sure how much of a materials savings this will be for them over the long term.

So I remember hearing Forgeworld resin can be carcinogenic and should therefore be handled with care - what about the Finecast stuff, is that safe?

Most of the resins and thermoplastics we work with are fairly safe in solid form; I can only think of one compound in particular that's considered toxic to handle, and that not especially so. (And it's a clear, flexible synthetic rubber, not a hard resin.) If Forge World is using an especially carcinogenic resin compound, they have no good reason to be doing so that I'm aware of.

[Wraith]

Hammerhand stacks with itself. Its mentioned in the book I think.

It specifically stacks with Might Of Titans, though it doesn't specify if you can have multiple Hammerhands on the same unit.

I'd say that it probably does - given that the majority of units can only get multiple bonuses by being joined by multiple IC's, it's probably not going to get so far out of hand as to be deemed 'silly'.

But there's a big differance between 5 Paladins losing a model to plasma every turn and Draigo losing a wound to plasma every other turn and the Paladins being fine taking their 2+ saves and feel no pain.

The question that interests me more, if I have to be brutally honest; is it a bigger difference than just paying for 5 more Paladin?

[Cheesegear]

Resins and plastics are also getting more expensive [...] due to the increasing price of petroleum.

*Facepalm*
...This explains so much. And I don't just mean for miniatures manufacturing. How come I didn't think of that before?

[Squark]

*Facepalm*
...This explains so much. And I don't just mean for miniatures manufacturing. How come I didn't think of that before?

You know, that does explain a lot.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The question that interests me more, if I have to be brutally honest; is it a bigger difference than just paying for 5 more Paladin?

In theory no, but you're also making your paladins scoring and getting grand strategy.

[BoSheck]

As of yesterday, I am the proud owner of an Assault on Black Reach starter kit + Space Wolves codex. Yaaay! Yes I am aware of AoBR's shortcomings, but I'm on a very tight budget and the minis/core rules combo was too good to pass up.

Welcome to a long road of valor, victory, and bravery Wolf Brother! The flexibility of the Sons of Russ allows for an entire slew of build possibilities, but I'm going to offer you a few pointers--this is just a young wolf's humble opinion, so don't take it as stone-wrought.

I like everything in the codex EXCEPT Bloodclaws, Swiftclaws, and Skyclaws...and whirlwinds.

You will want more meltaguns, some for your Grey Hunters, one for a scout pack, but even more for your Wolf Guard to make Combi-meltas.

Long Fangs--they do work. Until you put together a proper squad of the heavy weapon specialists, however, your rune priest can pop enemy light vehicles with a bit of lightning. Rune priests are really good. You also probably want a Space Wolf battleforce somewhere in there--the number of wolfy bitz you get is enough to keep going for ages.

[Hawkfrost000]

Because they're not really a core unit; Wracks are Elites.

they are pitched as troops because of haemunculus coven special rules, they count as troops if you take a haemunculus.

A lot of the ogre sized models are being made cheaper by putting them in a box of 3 for £30.

They're switching to resin to make it cheaper to them. Or so that they don't have to raise the price on metals more than the finecast stuff would cost. Plus they just spent a ton on new molds.

heh, over here were paying $60 for those same models and the exchange rate is not $2:£1

but i admit i must have misread the cheaper for us part

what was i thinking

DM

[Winterwind]

but i admit i must have misread the cheaper for us part

what was i thinking

DM

To be fair, it probably is cheaper for us. After all, if they are making this switch because of growing metal prices, and still felt it was necessary to increase the prices on the Finecast models, the implication is that if they had not made the switch to Finecast, they would have been forced to increase the prices even more than they did now.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Resins and plastics are also getting more expensive. I do indeed work in plastics manufacturing, as Cheesegear alluded to at the bottom of the last page, and materials costs are skyrocketing due to the increasing price of petroleum. I'm not sure how much of a materials savings this will be for them over the long term.

Pewter is still a much more limited resource than plastic/resin; it's getting more expensive fairly significantly quicker than the alternatives.

If Forge World is using an especially carcinogenic resin compound, they have no good reason to be doing so that I'm aware of.

I don't think it's so much that it's carcinogenic, but if you file it you get resin dust in your lungs which is bad news.
I mean, damn near everything causes cancer these days.

[Tarinaky]

Both are true. It's carcinogenic when its dust is inhaled.

[Teln]

Welcome to a long road of valor, victory, and bravery Wolf Brother! The flexibility of the Sons of Russ allows for an entire slew of build possibilities, but I'm going to offer you a few pointers--this is just a young wolf's humble opinion, so don't take it as stone-wrought.

I like everything in the codex EXCEPT Bloodclaws, Swiftclaws, and Skyclaws...and whirlwinds.

You will want more meltaguns, some for your Grey Hunters, one for a scout pack, but even more for your Wolf Guard to make Combi-meltas.

Long Fangs--they do work. Until you put together a proper squad of the heavy weapon specialists, however, your rune priest can pop enemy light vehicles with a bit of lightning. Rune priests are really good. You also probably want a Space Wolf battleforce somewhere in there--the number of wolfy bitz you get is enough to keep going for ages.

The battleforce is the next item on the shopping list, after paints, glue and colored dice. I admit that Bloodclaws missing out on the Shooting phase is painful, but my first impression is that the additional charging attack makes up for it. It seems to me that a squad of them in a Drop Pod with Lukas the Trickster would make a good suicide unit. Long Fangs are on the shopping list, along with a rune priest.

@Nameless Ghost: Thanks for the advice.

I mean, damn near everything causes cancer these days.

My dad quit eating toast after he heard burning it makes it carcinogenic. I've quit worrying about it. After all, my family's history of lung cancer in nonsmokers is already enough to keep me up at night (Both my mother and her father died from it).

Sorry about the double post, everyone.

[Tarinaky]

Attack Bikes in Bike Squads.

Is it worth taking Attack Bikes in Bike squads. Is there a minimum size for them to be useful?

I tried using 5-man biker squads with an extra Attack Bike but felt that the squad was too small to protect the attack bikes from becoming casualties.

I was also unsure which weapon option would be best:
2 Plasmaguns + Multimelta (Tank ahoy!) or
2 Plasmaguns + Heavy Bolter (Infantry ahoy!)

A dedicated attack bike squad feels like a weak link since it's vulnerable to ID while a Bike Squad can, in theory, spread the casualties to avoid it. However when you've only got 2 'spare' Bikers that's a little tricky.

[Nameless Ghost]

In related news, the new 'Working With Resin' article up on the Forge World website, says:

The resin that we use has no inherent health risks, but we do recommend a dust mask if you are filing or sanding – as with any fine substance, resin dust can be an irritant.

Yeah, make of that what you will.

Attack Bikes in Bike Squads.

Is it worth taking Attack Bikes in Bike squads. Is there a minimum size for them to be useful?

I tried using 5-man biker squads with an extra Attack Bike but felt that the squad was too small to protect the attack bikes from becoming casualties.

I was also unsure which weapon option would be best:
2 Plasmaguns + Multimelta (Tank ahoy!) or
2 Plasmaguns + Heavy Bolter (Infantry ahoy!)

A dedicated attack bike squad feels like a weak link since it's vulnerable to ID while a Bike Squad can, in theory, spread the casualties to avoid it. However when you've only got 2 'spare' Bikers that's a little tricky.

Take into account that a normal biker costs you half the points of an Attack bike with a Multi-melta. You also get the same number of Wounds vs shooting as you'd get with 2 bikers. And what works out as a free Multi-melta. Multi-melta!

If you take a full sized squad, you can Combat Squad the Attack bike into a different unit. If this is the plan, it won't matter what other special weapons you have.

The Heavy bolter tends to be an inferior choice because you can get them in much more suitable places elsewhere in an army, while a single Multi-melta has a reasonable chance of popping a light tank even at 24" and anything at 12" - which is where your bike squads want to be anyway.

[Teln]

The resin that we use has no inherent health risks, but we do recommend a dust mask if you are filing or sanding – as with any fine substance, resin dust can be an irritant.

Translation: The doctors say it's too low to cause any harm, but the legal department wanted to rule out any possibility of a lawsuit.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The battleforce is the next item on the shopping list, after paints, glue and colored dice. I admit that Bloodclaws missing out on the Shooting phase is painful, but my first impression is that the additional charging attack makes up for it.

Super charging powers only really work if you can reliably obliterate any enemy on the charge and good as they are Blood Claws can't without massive numbers.

If Blood Claws fail to kill on the charge they're just Grey Hunters that get hit on 3s.

It seems to me that a squad of them in a Drop Pod with Lukas the Trickster would make a good suicide unit. Long Fangs are on the shopping list, along with a rune priest.

Lukas the Trickster is good for suicide Blood Claws, but you can't charge in the turn a drop pod drops so Grey Hunters with they guns and counterattack are way better with drop pods.

Blood Claws fail because they aren't as flexible as Grey Hunters, only synergise with land raiders from a mech perspective and don't have what Black Templars need to make their footslogging horde marine units work (and even then they aren't competative).

Blood Claws would be worth it if they were 13 pts a model but lost their berserker charge rule. That would put them on a similar level to Black Templar's neophytes, their closest analogue. Being less elite troops without a points drop hurts them and means they don't really have a role in the codex.

[Wraith]

In theory no, but you're also making your paladins scoring and getting grand strategy.

Hmm... Grand Masters get Grand Strategy anyway, and I'd be surprised to see more than one unit of Paladin in a Grey Knight army anyway. 275pts for a Storm Shield, Eternal Warrior and Unyielding Anvil becoming d3+1 (or perhaps 2, in bigger games and unusual themed armies)?

I really want to like Draigo; there's a lot *to* like in all fairness, but I'm struggling to see how he's worthwhile in any game small than 2000pts, which is about as large as I ever play (and certainly with Grey Knights).