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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Did a playtest from level 1 to 3. The Phantom Assailant line now resolves attacks as touch attacks. Added Master of Disguise and Fool You Twice invocations. Clarified the description for Arcane Fission. Added multiclass options.

    Any final critiques/suggestions/additions before I call this class finished?

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    This looks really interesting. Also, the quote under the picture reminds me of Nanase from El Goonish Shive. That association was actually what got me to read this, and even though it is otherwise very different, it's still great AFAICT.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    As I have said before, very nice.

    Also, can I use a bit of this class in my entry for the current Base Class competition? I have a Discovery (basically an invocation) that grants cross-class Arcane Surge points, and then a later Discovery that grants a single invocation from this class' list.

    So can I, please?

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Thanks for the compliments. Of course you may use any elements of this class. Best of luck in the competition!

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Arcane Fission is pretty cool. It beats having to enchant two weapons and is one of the few two-weapon abilities I have seen that are useful.
    Arcane surge actually sort of reminds me of an adrenaline feature I created once. I really like the idea of fighting in itself granting power, because, unlike many systems, it means you don't lose power as you continue in a fight, but become more powerful as you get more into the fight.
    I do have a question about the surges though. Do you plan on adding surges to the rest of the invocations (including ones that already existed before)? Or were you planning for some invocations to lack surges? I just wonder how useful arcane surge will be if only some effects have surges, especially if a player makes a build that uses more of the invocations without surges than with them.
    You might also want to add abilities to the 18th and 19th levels.
    Other than that the class seems pretty balanced and is definitely a solid build.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    I don't plan on adding the surge option to every invocation. Many of them are direct imports of published invocations and I don't want to mess with them. Others I feel either don't make sense to have a surge option or I simply can't think of one.

    Levels 18-19 could have abilities but I'm drawing a blank on what to add. It's not so bad though, because both those levels gain a new dark invocation.

    I'll think about new surge options and class abilities. Same goes for new invocation options. Any suggestions are always welcome too.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Hers my suggestion for level 17 and 18 ability's.
    For level 17, something about Mobility.
    How about when you full attack something, for every 2 attacks you succeed on, you can teleport yourself 5 ft at the end of the attack.

    For level 18, what about you can spend 2 surge points per effective level of the Invocation to quicken it?
    2 elegant, ability's, and seeing as compared to a fighter or Crusader, they can take hits better than the Indigo Trickster, so maybe they should have ability' to help them throw out defensive invocations faster and avoid hits, since part of the reason the Dervish is so powerful is because it can last longer in fights melee-on-melee.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    I second your teleportation ability hazzardevil, but I would rather have another two-weapon ability of some sort for the other ability, and preferably something as awesome as arcane fission.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Twin Dervish: An Indigo Trickster isn't confined to simple tricks with held weapons, not anymore. At 19th level, an Indigo Trickster may spend 4 Surge Points to duplicate the effects of a Steeldance spell, except the swords may make a number of attacks equal to the number they are normally capable of.

    (Steeldance effectively makes animates two bladed weapons and has them "Ride" on you. You can wield another pair of weapons, of course.)

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Its not just duel wielding. Its quad-wielding. Sorry, too awesome to pass up a ridiculous comment.
    Anyways it would need some modifications because this is not a sorcerer or a wizard. The question is, is whether or not you treat the attack roll and damage roll like you do in the spell, if you default to the normal method of melee attacks, or if you would tweak that in some other way.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2011-08-06 at 09:34 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Well, my suggestion is have the floating swords attack as if your BAB was reduced by 5, so that the attack sequence would look like:
    +20/+20/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+5/+5, for a total of 14 attacks.

    Either that or, instead of quad-wielding (if that is too silly), how about the following:
    Each time you attack, you may spend 1 Surge Point. If you do, roll the attack twice, and consult the following table:

    {table]|Didn't Hit|Would Have Hit Touch AC|Hit Target AC|Threatened a Critical|Natural Twenty

    Didn't Hit|Miss|Miss|Hit|Hit|Threaten a Critical

    Would Have Hit Touch AC|Miss|Hit|Hit|Threaten a Critical|Critical

    Hit Target AC|Hit|Hit|Threaten Critical|Critical|Critical, Gain 1d4 Surge Points

    Threatened A Critical|Hit|Threaten a Critical|Critical|Critical, Gain 1d4 Surge Points|Critical, Gain 1d4 Surge Points, Attack again at the same bonus (Cannot reuse this ability)

    Natural Twenty|Threaten a Critical|Critical|Critical, Gain 1d4 Surge Points|Critical, Gain 1d4 Surge Points, Attack again at the same bonus (Cannot reuse this ability)|Opponent Dies, your Surge Point amount is filled up.[/table]

    Basically, you have a potential for AWESOME payout with this ability.

    (Yes, Quad-Wielding is probably less powerful)

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    {table]|Didn't Hit|Would Have Hit Touch AC|Hit Target AC|Threatened a Critical|Natural Twenty

    Didn't Hit|Miss|Miss|Hit|Hit|Threaten a Critical

    Would Have Hit Touch AC|Miss|Hit|Hit|Threaten a Critical|Critical

    Hit Target AC|Hit|Hit|Threaten Critical|Critical|Critical, Gain 1d4 Surge Points

    Threatened A Critical|Hit|Threaten a Critical|Critical|Critical, Gain 1d4 Surge Points|Critical, Gain 1d4 Surge Points, Attack again at the same bonus (Cannot reuse this ability)

    Natural Twenty|Threaten a Critical|Critical|Critical, Gain 1d4 Surge Points|Critical, Gain 1d4 Surge Points, Attack again at the same bonus (Cannot reuse this ability)|Opponent Dies, your Surge Point amount is filled up.[/table]
    Bows down and kisses feet of table master.
    Can I take Apprentice Tablemaker for Craft (Table-making) as a class skill?
    Last edited by Hazzardevil; 2011-08-07 at 04:07 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Well, I don't know about Apprentice: Tablemaker; I have levels in Expert, so I did take it as one of my class skills...

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    What I'm aiming for with the class abilities are simple "quality of life" upgrades that don't drastically raise the class' power level. Uncanny Agility (middle) and Limit Break (cap) are the most notable exceptions, but other than that I want the class abilities to be fairly tame while the true power selection is in the invocation list. I'm concerned that the indigo trickster's raw damage potential is getting too close to a warblade's.

    All these suggestions are great, but Hazzardevil's fits what I want the most. Amechra's suggestions look like something I can weave into new invocations. I can't let that awesome table go to waste. Where's steel dance from?

    EDIT: On second thought, I've decided to leave 18 and 19 "blank." You already get a new dark invocation for both levels and 18 is a new feat which can mean another greater invocation a la Extra Invocation from Complete Arcane. I'm happy with how the table looks right now. Unless the indigo trickster didn't reach my goal of low/mid tier 3, any further additions will be in the form of new invocations.
    Last edited by Dralnu; 2011-08-08 at 04:23 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    I think Steel Dance is in the Spell Compendium, iirc.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    EDIT: On second thought, I've decided to leave 18 and 19 "blank." You already get a new dark invocation for both levels and 18 is a new feat which can mean another greater invocation a la Extra Invocation from Complete Arcane. I'm happy with how the table looks right now. Unless the indigo trickster didn't reach my goal of low/mid tier 3, any further additions will be in the form of new invocations.
    I would just like to say that's the reasoning that got the bard so many Dead levels.


    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    I second your teleportation ability hazzardevil, but I would rather have another two-weapon ability of some sort for the other ability, and preferably something as awesome as arcane fission.
    While my first suggestion isn't two-weapon fighting exclusive, it benefits two-weapon fighting more than two-handed fighting since they get more attacks.
    Last edited by Hazzardevil; 2011-08-08 at 05:13 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    I would just like to say that's the reasoning that got the bard so many Dead levels.
    Yeah, the normal feats everyone gets should not be counted as enough to allow a dead level. I think the bonus of New Dark Invocation should only be counted if its the first Dark one. Otherwise all the levels from 16 on could be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Okay, you're right about normal feats shouldn't count. But Warblade, possibly the best melee class in existence, has 8 dead levels, and he gets 17 maneuvers+stances opposed to the trickster's 16 invocations, and the invocations are stronger on the whole. The trickster only has 2 dead levels so far.

    I'll put in the teleport ability but not the quicken one yet. I've been warming up to the teleport idea when a player told me that it would be a really neat for a dual wielding dagger thrower.

    I'm also trying to decide whether the invocations should be spell-like abilities or supernatural. I want it to conform as closely with the other invokers as possible and I definitely want the invocations to be dispellable, but on the other hand many of my new invocations are basically ToB maneuvers and would have issues if they were subject to AoO's like normal spell-like abilities. Also, adding all the "SR: Yes/No" will be a pain.
    Last edited by Dralnu; 2011-08-09 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    I have a question about one of your lesser invocations, fool you twice.
    Would taking ability focus in it give the DC bonus to all of the options?

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    I have a question about one of your lesser invocations, fool you twice.
    Would taking ability focus in it give the DC bonus to all of the options?
    Yes it would.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Yes it would.
    Thanks! That'll throw my party for a loop.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Added Hazzardevil's suggestions with a small twist:

    Unseen Steps (Ex): As you near the end of your path, your arcane magics become so seamlessly tied to your fighting style that the mundane has become magic. Starting at 18th level, for every two successful attacks that you make in a round, you may teleport yourself 5 feet in any direction as by dimension door at the end of the attack.

    Did you know that the module Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde has a PrC, Serene Guardian, that also has a mechanic based off 2+ attacks? And it's a really cool PrC too.

    Arcane Alarcity (Su): Beginning at 19th level, you learn that energy and speed are one in the same, and apply that knowledge to your invocations. By spending an amount of surge points equal to the invocation's grade, you may change the invocation's casting time to a free action. Least cost 4, Lesser 8, Greater 12, and Dark 16.

    I have an active playtest going on. The party is Trickster, Warmage, Duskblade, Warblade, and Stormwatcher. My hypothesis is that Duskblade and Warblade will do better damage, the Warmage will have more versatile damage and better AOE, and the Stormwatcher will have better battlefield control. I'm hoping the Trickster can fill the skillmonkey niche but still have a defining role in fights. The class may need buffs in the latter department.
    Last edited by Dralnu; 2011-08-20 at 01:53 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Added Hazzardevil's suggestions with a small twist:

    Unseen Steps (Ex): As you near the end of your path, your arcane magics become so seamlessly tied to your fighting style that the mundane has become magic. Starting at 18th level, for every two successful attacks that you make in a round, you may teleport yourself 5 feet in any direction as by dimension door at the end of the attack.

    Did you know that the module Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde has a PrC, Serene Guardian, that also has a mechanic based off 2+ attacks? And it's a really cool PrC too.
    Use greater teleport, not dimension door for the teleportation in Unseen Steps. DDoor makes you lose all remaining actions in your turn, so you wouldn't be able to keep attacking after the teleport.

    Yeah, the Serene Guardian is pretty cool. It doesn't do all that much until you get 2 resonance/round, but the automatic Moment of Perfect Mind at 9th is excellent and the no save confusion is a potent attack.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Good catch, fixed.

    Yeah it has some good stuff. I was also shocked that a monk PrC had (gasp) full BAB! I'd love to play one.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Out of curiosity, is there any way for this class to gain the Hideous Blow invocation? I was looking around the boards the other day & this http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105313 seems like a really cool character concept to me. If not, I need to find another way to make this work.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Unfortunately this class doesn't have any blast shape invocations so there's no way that I know of to get Hideous Blow. You would likely need a lvl 1 dip in warlock for it. On the flipside, I think I can help with the sneak attack pre-req. An invocation that grants sneak attack could be a fine addition and fits the rogue theme.

    I'm also considering giving the class arcane surge points equal to half your class level at the start of combat and/or bumping Uncanny Agility to an earlier level. Not sure yet.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Congratulations on a very well-made class there Dralnu. I'm actually so interested in this that I am going to test this class in my current campaign.

    If ye dun mind.


    EDIT: This would mean testing it at level 9-10-11 most likely, across three encounters, considering my group's level.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2011-08-28 at 04:14 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Oh, neato! That'd be great, thank you! Do you want me to whip up an NPC for you or will you make one on your own?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Considering I don't really have an idea how they'd exactly fit right in my campaign (though it should be easy, since the Las Vegas-like city my party is in right in the middle of the desert is filled with magic-users, desert-sailing pirates, goblin mafia and secretly an assassin's guild), but mostly because you prolly have a way better idea for feats and builds for them, I would appreciate that a lot! If you simply stat one at level 9, I could just update him/her to level 10/11 when the time requires it. It might take a few weeks to round up the testing, but I'll keep you updated.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Is it possible to use Arcane Fission to create daggers for use as ranged weapons?

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