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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceOfThieves View Post
    Is it possible to use Arcane Fission to create daggers for use as ranged weapons?
    Yes, it works, I've done it.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Still looking for a new name for this class?

    How about 'Teal Trickster' or 'Turquoise Trickster'?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    I've clarified Arcane Fission more:
    Arcane Fission (Su): Your battle-focused arcane abilities allow you to wield your favored weapon in both hands by splitting it into two identical weapons. At level 5, if you're holding a melee or ranged weapon in one hand and nothing in an empty hand, you may create a duplicate of the weapon that forms in your empty hand. This duplicate is made of pure arcane energy but otherwise acts identically like the original weapon, including any enchantments and effects the original weapon has except for any limited use abilities. The weapon is treated as a light weapon when wielded in your off hand. The duplicate weapon dissolves into nothing if it's not in your hand by the end of your round, or immediately if anyone else holds it. Creating a duplicate weapon is a free action.
    I added a sample encounter, a lvl 9 indigo trickster, along with suggested tactics.

    Also a new lesser invocation in the works for PrC qualifying and stuff:
    Rogue's Precision
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: Permanent

    When you use this invocation, you permanently gain +1d6 sneak attack. This is an extraordinary ability.

    Unlike other invocations, you cannot replace this invocation once you have learned it.

    I was looking for a new name because Incarnum has a monopoly on all shades of blue. I'm sticking with Indigo Trickster now though.
    Last edited by Dralnu; 2011-09-02 at 02:27 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Make it instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled. Or make it function only as long as you know it, so you lose the effects if you lose the invocation (level loss, Psychic Reformation, other homebrew stuff you don't know about yet that'll temporarily grant an invocation). That would be better. If you have the chance, I'd suggest changing the few other "permanent" invocations to work like that, too.

    Alternatively, how about a new subcategory of invocation-like abilities that can be selected as invocations and count as invocations, but function permanently like class features and can't be traded. That way the invocation-like invocations won't get mixed up with ability-like invocation-things. Trading out already happens, but people do crazy things. I know Amechra had a homebrew that traded stances to temporarily gain invocations, and this would be like a free +1d6 sneak attack for a class like that (get it temporarily, use it, then lose it). It's best to nip those potential problems in the bud.

    Give them a distinct name (Eldritch/Indigo Talent, maybe?) and rather than directly treating them as invocations, let Indigo Tricksters and other invocation-users select them in place of new invocations. Scratch that, it's too complicated to implement. Better to go with a "while you know it" kind of thing as I mentioned above.

    Any reason you can't leave this as a 24 hour kind of thing like most other invocations? If it's a qualification for feats/PrCs issue, that would make sense to leave it as an omnipresent "class feature" instead of a spell effect.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    If you check the newest update, they no longer swap out for Invocations; instead they swap out for the benefits of certain Soulmelds (Soulspeaker Circlet just felt like an awesome "stance" to me, along with stuff like the Necrocarnum Circlet.)

    Just as an FYI.

    And, oh, I would suggest "Ten-Place Trickster", you know, because they are so many places at once (from their enemies' perspective, of course.)

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Garryl View Post
    Make it instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled. Or make it function only as long as you know it, so you lose the effects if you lose the invocation (level loss, Psychic Reformation, other homebrew stuff you don't know about yet that'll temporarily grant an invocation). That would be better. If you have the chance, I'd suggest changing the few other "permanent" invocations to work like that, too.
    From what I understand, labeling it as an extraordinary ability makes it undispellable. Also, rather unfortunately, the indigo trickster's invocations are supernatural instead of spell-like abilities, so they can't be dispelled anyway. I'll make the action instantaneous just in case.

    Alternatively, how about a new subcategory of invocation-like abilities that can be selected as invocations and count as invocations, but function permanently like class features and can't be traded. That way the invocation-like invocations won't get mixed up with ability-like invocation-things. Trading out already happens, but people do crazy things. I know Amechra had a homebrew that traded stances to temporarily gain invocations, and this would be like a free +1d6 sneak attack for a class like that (get it temporarily, use it, then lose it). It's best to nip those potential problems in the bud.
    I could start splitting the invocations into categories but I'm not sure if it's warranted yet. I only have two permanent invocations so far. Also, permanent duration or no, I would think that if you temporarily gain something, you lose it when the duration is over because it was temporary. I'm not 100% sure though so I'll make changes if I'm wrong on this.

    Any reason you can't leave this as a 24 hour kind of thing like most other invocations? If it's a qualification for feats/PrCs issue, that would make sense to leave it as an omnipresent "class feature" instead of a spell effect.
    It's this way for PrC qualifications. Now that I think about it though, I guess I could make the duration 24hours and it wouldn't mess things up, would it? Does a swordsage with Assassin's Stance qualify for sneak attack requirement PrCs?

    And, oh, I would suggest "Ten-Place Trickster", you know, because they are so many places at once (from their enemies' perspective, of course.)
    Could you please elaborate? I'm always open for new invocations ideas.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Sorry if I was unclear. I meant that if you have a permanent/instantaneous duration on the invocation, temporarily gain the ability to use it (such as Extra Invocation via the Chameleon's floating bonus feat, or with class levels that are later lost to resurrection or negative levels), use the invocation, and then lose the ability to use it, you would still have the effects of it active on you.

    Even as extraordinary abilities, permanent effects can be removed. If nothing else, Iron Heart Surge can let you remove it (and you might, hypothetically, be forced to do so if you are dominated). Instantaneous is better for anything that gives you something that cannot be removed or (directly) undone. Just make sure you make it not stack with the effects of previous uses.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Well, I was just commenting on the fact that they make so many mirror images as a matter of course; you can literally look like you are "ten places at once", if you play your cards right and pick the right invocations.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Sorry I misunderstood, it was a name change suggestions not an invocation one. I'm keeping it Indigo Trickster though.

    I changed the two invocations to Instantaneous with Duration: 24hours. Does that fix it?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Then again, it does sound like it would be cool for an invocation that would let you create a bunch of images and then swapping between them as part of an attack action...

    (The name, I mean.)

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Sounds like a good Dark invocation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    I was looking for a new name because Incarnum has a monopoly on all shades of blue. I'm sticking with Indigo Trickster now though.
    You're not going to add a minor incarnum ability are you?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Then again, it does sound like it would be cool for an invocation that would let you create a bunch of images and then swapping between them as part of an attack action...

    (The name, I mean.)
    Well, the Phantom Assailant line of invocations make duplicate images of you as a standard or swift action and you can swap between them with Bait n' Switch as a swift or immediate action. So merging the two as a higher level invocation seems like a natural evolution. Something like this for a dark invocation:

    Ten-Place Trickster
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Personal; see text
    Target: You
    Duration: 1 round/lvl

    Nine duplicates of you exits your body. With a grin, they charge at the enemy.

    This invocation works as Phantom Mob, except nine figments are produced and the duration for the figments are increased to 1 round per class level.

    Surge 1: You may swap places with any of your figments as a free action.
    Good for 16th level?


    You're not going to add a minor incarnum ability are you?
    This prompted me to look at Magic of Incarnum for the first time. I didn't understand everything, but I did find Wolverine in there:
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    Balance question: I desire this class to be mid/low tier 3, at the ToB range. At the same time, I don't like levels where you don't get a new invocation, so I'm thinking about bumping the invocations known to 20 (1 per level). Would that push this class higher in tier than my goal?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    I like the invocation; it makes it a nice little "Oh, you know which one is me, right? NOT!" effect, which is what I really want out of life.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    So I was procrastinating in the library today and looked over the Spell Compendium for more invocations. There's a crazy amount of awesome spells in there, but many of them are so situational that they're better off as bundled invocations.

    I started bundling them together as invocations and made these:

    Least
    Cat Burglar

    This invocation allows you to use Dispel WardSpC p67, Instant LocksmithSpC p124, Instant SearchSpC p124, and Spontaneous SearchSpC p204 as the spells.
    Distraction

    This invocation allows you to use DistractSpC p69, Distract AssailantSpC p69, and Distracting RaySpC p69 as the spells.

    Surge 1: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 2.

    Go When I Tell You

    This invocation allows you to use InciteSpC p121, InhibitSpC p123, and Shock and AweSpC p189 as the spells.

    Surge 1: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 2.
    Mislead

    This invocation allows you to use Cloak PoolSpC p48, Discolor PoolSpC p66, Dead EndSpC p59, and Remove ScentSpC p173 as the spells.
    Rogue's Guile

    This invocation allows you to use Accelerated MovementSpC p7, CheatSpC p46, Insightful FeintSpC p124, and Sticky FingersSpC p206 as the spells.
    Stop Hitting Yourself

    This invocation allows you to use BackbiterSpC p23, BacklashSpC p23, and Slapping HandSpC p191 as the spells.

    Surge 1: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 2.

    Lesser

    Mind Trickery

    This invocation allows you to use Delusions of GrandeurSpC p63, Mindless RageSpC p142, Entice GiftSpC p83, and Miser's EnvySpC p142 as the spells.

    Surge 2: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 4.
    Cheat Gravity

    This invocation allows you to use False GravitySpC p87 as the spell.

    Greater

    Phantasms

    This invocation allows you to use Phantasmal AssailantSpC p154, Phantasmal DecoySpC p155, Phantasmal DisorientationSpC p155, and Phantom FoeSpC p156 as the spells.

    Surge 2: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 4.
    Dispelling Veil

    This invocation allows you to use Wall of DispellingSpC p233 as the spell.
    Dark

    Supreme Invisibility

    This invocation allows you to use Superior InvisibilitySpC p125 as the spell.

    Surge 2: The initiation action is instead a swift action.
    The Greatest Illusion

    This invocation allows you to use SolipsismSpC p194 as the spell.

    Surge 2: The spell's saving throw DC is increased by 4.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Dralnu; 2011-09-17 at 09:26 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    (lots of new invocations)
    Looks pretty cool, but Phantasmal Thief really isn't anything like any of the other Phantasms, and in fact isn't even a Phantasm. It's more of a kleptomaniac Unseen Servant with infinite-yet-limited movespeed (It can get to anything within Close range, including anything in a Bag of Holding as long as the bag itself is in range (no matter how far you'd have to walk inside the bag to get to the thing).
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2011-09-17 at 08:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    You're right, it doesn't belong. I took that one out. It's a neat spell though so I'll keep trying to fit it into an invocation.

    Other spells I've been considering turning into invocations: Shifting Paths 8 p188, Sensory Deprivation 4 p182, Reflective Disguise 2 p171, Illusory Feast 5 p120, Disguise Undead 2 p66, Decoy Image 3 p61, Daggerspell Stance

    Also considering making a Shadow themed PrC, as I've been deliberately avoiding shadow illusions so far. Stuff like Shadow Walk would be neat. Also maybe open it up to Divinations too.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Well this is like, 1 year later, but I heard someone talk about indigo trickster and I came here to check.

    Some details that I did not understand very well:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Arcane Surge: [...]You acquire a surge point with each successful attack that you make with a melee or thrown weapon, which you can then use to fuel your surge invocations. These points are stored until you either expend them or until the end of the encounter. The maximum number of surge points that you can store at a time is one per class level. Surge points disappear after five minutes.[...]
    It doesn't said it have to be an attack against a creature, or deal damage, so I could earn surge points by hitting the floor?

    The last phrases are a bit odd. The surge points last until the end of the encounter or until you expend them, but as you did not add "whatever happens first" then someone pointed it and you added the 5 minutes limit. But if they dissapear when the encounter is over, why do you need the 5 limit rule? That only helps the first thing I pointed, saying I could earn surge point by hitting the floor.

    Here is how I would have wrote it:
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    You acquire a surge point with each successful attack that you make against a creature using a melee or thrown weapon, and deal at least 1 point of damage,which you can then use to fuel your surge invocations. These points are stored until you either expend them or until the end of the encounter, ehatever happens first. The maximum number of surge points that you can store at a time is one per class level.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post

    AC Bonus
    : Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Intelligence modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless.
    Isn't it easier to make the AC bonus a dodge bonus? I say it because of the last Phrase that pretty much define a dodge bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Lowered Guard (Ex): Cracks in your enemies' defenses appear when you surprise them, which you and your allies can further exploit. Starting at level 4, Enemies that are denied their dexterity bonus by you take a -1 penalty to their AC until the beginning of your next turn. This penalty increases by 1 at level 8, 12, 16, and 20.
    Does that mean that if I am invisible for a target, everyone else got +1 to hit it? Even if I don't attack him?

    Shouldn't it be: Enemies you attack that have lost their Dex bonus against you suffer a -1 AC penalty until the beginning of your next turn.
    Or if you preffer "enemies that you threaten", depending on your idea of the ability.

    Some description suggestions:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Arcane Fission (Su): Your battle-focused arcane abilities allow you to wield your favored weapon in both hands by splitting it into two identical weapons. At level 5, if you're holding a melee or ranged weapon you are competent with in one hand and nothing in an empty hand your other hand, you may create a duplicate of the weapon that forms in your empty hand. This duplicate is made of pure arcane energy but otherwise acts identically like the original weapon, including any enchantments and effects the original weapon has except for any limited use abilities or material properties. The weapon is treated as a light weapon when wielded in your off hand. The duplicate weapon dissolves into nothing if it's not in your hand by the end of your round, or immediately if anyone else holds it. Creating a duplicate weapon is a free action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Unseen Steps (Ex): As you near the end of your path, your arcane magics become so seamlessly tied to your fighting style that the mundane has become magic. Starting at 18th level, for every two successful attacks that you make in a round, you may teleport yourself 5 feet in any direction as by greater teleport at the end of the attack. your turn as a free action.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): The path of the indigo tempest teaches how to effectively wield two weapons at once. At 3rd level, you gain Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat even if you do not qualify for the feat as long as you are wearing light armor or no armor. If you already have Two-Weapon Fighting, you may take a feat listed as a fighter bonus feat, so long as you meet all the prerequisites for that feat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Supreme Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): Beginning at 17th level, you've reached the pinnacle of two-weapon fighting. You get a fourth attack with your offhand weapon, albeit at a -15 penalty.
    Why use this instead of Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting? Just add "as a bonus feat even if you do not qualify for the feat." Wouldn't that work? Or am I missing something about it being epic and then not being able to "even if you do not qualify"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Trickster's Savvy (Ex): Starting a 7th level, your class Indigo Trickster level is equivalent to a rogue's for determining whether or not you can flank a creature with the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability (see barbarian PHB p26). If you have Rogue levels, they stack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Uncanny Agility (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, you may spend 2 surge points to take an additional swift or immediate action. You may only use this ability once per round.
    I understand that using an immeditate action spends your swift action "slot" for the next turn. What would happen if I use 2 immediate actions thanks to Uncanny Agility? Do I have to use the swift "slot" of my next 2 rounds?

    Also, shouldn't Limit Break be an upgrade of Uncanny Agility instead of a new ability?

    I hope you understand this is the internet and I don't plan to sound like a jerk
    i really like the class but I see it too abusable as it is writen now. This are of course sugestions and you are free to throw them at my face.
    I hope you are still checking this thread :)
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Korney View Post
    Here is how I would have wrote it:
    You're right. I'm changing it to this:
    You acquire a surge point with each successful attack that you make against a creature with a melee or thrown weapon in combat, which you can then use to fuel your surge invocations.
    Isn't it easier to make the AC bonus a dodge bonus? I say it because of the last Phrase that pretty much define a dodge bonus.
    I copied the wording of the SRD / Pathfinder Monk ability for consistency. Should I change it to dodge bonus?

    Shouldn't it be: Enemies you attack that have lost their Dex bonus against you suffer a -1 AC penalty until the beginning of your next turn.
    I changed it to:
    Enemies you attack that are denied their dexterity bonus by you take a -1 penalty to their AC until the beginning of your next turn.
    I wanted to keep the wording of "denied dexterity" because that specific term comes up so often, but I still want people to know that the trickster has to attack the target first to activate this ability, as you said.

    Some description suggestions:
    Arcane Fission, I said empty hand for those rare situations where you have more than two hands, like that demon snake chick thing.

    Unseen Steps, since at that point you'll have far more than 2 swings in a full attack, I envisioned teleporting in the middle of full attacks after every two hits, not just teleporting once at the end of a turn. More complicated but more awesome? Is the wording still bad?

    Not sure why the bonus feat should be tied to an armor restriction. Is there a precedent for this?

    The rest I changed as you suggested.

    Why use this instead of Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting? Just add "as a bonus feat even if you do not qualify for the feat." Wouldn't that work? Or am I missing something about it being epic and then not being able to "even if you do not qualify"?
    I wasn't aware of the epic feat. I'll change it to this.

    I understand that using an immeditate action spends your swift action "slot" for the next turn. What would happen if I use 2 immediate actions thanks to Uncanny Agility? Do I have to use the swift "slot" of my next 2 rounds?
    From what I understand/intended, the "additional" immediate action from the ability is separate from your normal action economy so you wouldn't have used a second swift "slot."

    Also, shouldn't Limit Break be an upgrade of Uncanny Agility instead of a new ability?
    It should. I'll fix this when I wake up.

    I hope you understand this is the internet and I don't plan to sound like a jerk
    i really like the class but I see it too abusable as it is writen now. This are of course sugestions and you are free to throw them at my face.
    I hope you are still checking this thread :)
    Doesn't sound mean at all! I'm glad you like the class and always appreciate feedback. Thank you for the suggestions!

    I hope my fixes were actual fixes. I did them in a sleepy state so they might not all make sense.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Dralnu! Great to see you here again!

    For arcane alacrity, invocation grades are not enumerated (they don't correspond to numbers), so saying a cost "equal" to the invocation's grade makes no sense, especially since you give the costs based on grade immediately afterwards. This should say "based on" the grade instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    I copied the wording of the SRD / Pathfinder Monk ability for consistency. Should I change it to dodge bonus?
    No. Dodge bonuses are also lost whenever you would be denied your Dex bonus to AC, a limitation that the current version does not have.

    I wanted to keep the wording of "denied dexterity" because that specific term comes up so often, but I still want people to know that the trickster has to attack the target first to activate this ability, as you said.
    Speaking of which, does the AC penalty apply to the attack that caused the penalty, or only afterwards?

    I'd suggest the following wording instead:
    When you attack an opponent that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, it takes a -1 penalty to its armor class for 1 round. This penalty takes effect [before/after] resolving your attack.

    Not sure why the bonus feat should be tied to an armor restriction. Is there a precedent for this?
    Ranger's Combat Style bonus feats.

    From what I understand/intended, the "additional" immediate action from the ability is separate from your normal action economy so you wouldn't have used a second swift "slot."
    You should specify as such (eg: "This additional immediate action does not count against your swift actions on your next turn."). Otherwise, if you were to gain multiple swift actions (such as with RKV), you'd still lose your 2nd swift action, I think.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

    Hey Garryl! I'm always here, just less active than I used to be. Though I admit I haven't been keeping up with the brilliantgameologist forums.

    I've made the suggested fixes and reworded Lowered Guard:

    Lowered Guard (Ex): Cracks in your enemies' defences appear when you surprise them, which you and your allies can further exploit. Starting at level 4, when you actively deny an opponent of its Dexterity bonus or strike an opponent currently denied its Dexterity bonus, it takes a -1 penalty to its AC until the beginning of your next turn. This penalty takes effect before resolving your attack and is not cumulative. This penalty increases by 1 at level 8, 12, 16, and 20.
    There are tons of invocations that actively deny Dexterity bonus so I made those relevant to the ability.

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