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    Default Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    I was thinking that theres dozens of prestige classes for theurgey, mystic theurge the original, arcane hierophant, cerebramancer, psychic theurge. And many more, so I thought, why isn't there one for artificers?

    ”Your Infusions haven't been enchanced like mine Merrix, that's why this forge is mine,” – The Lord of Blades, after having beaten Merrix 'D Cannith for control of the last forge in the Mournlands

    An Infusion is a form of magic not completely unlike a wizard's, however an Artytheurge's combines Infusions with more traditional magic to enhance their allies beyond most.

    BECOMING An Artytheurge
    ArtyTheurges are not altogether common, but their ranks are not difficult to join. Any Wizard who is willing to dabble in other magic or an Artificer who discovered arcane power deep within their blood could become one.

    ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
    Spellcasting: Caster level 5 and Caster Level 5 for the artificer infusion list.
    Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, If your casting class is Cleric or Favoured soul then also add the requirement Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks. If their casting class is druid or Spirit Shaman, then add the requirement Knowledge (Nature) 8 ranks. If you are not using any of these classes, consult your DM.
    Feats: Practised Infuser or Practised Spellcaster

    Class Skills
    ArtyTheurges's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise, Craft (all), Concentration, Disable device,Knowledge (all, taken separatly), Open Lock, Profession, Search, Spot, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device.
    Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

    Hit Dice: d6



    Artytheurge
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Infusing the Arcana, Artificer Abilities|+1 level of existing spellcasting class and +1 level of existing Infusion class

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Familiar Homunculus|+1 level of existing spellcasting class and +1 level of existing Infusion class

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Bonus feat|+1 level of existing spellcasting class and +1 level of existing Infusion class

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Armoured Mage (light)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class and +1 level of existing Infusion class

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |The only thing you've managed to break so far|+1 level of existing spellcasting class and +1 level of existing infusing class

    6th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Armoured Mage (Light Shield|+1 level of existing spellcasting class and +1 level of existing Infusion class

    7th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Bonus feat|+1 level of existing spellcasting class and +1 level of existing Infusion class

    8th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Armoured Mage (Medium)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class and +1 level of existing Infusion class

    9th|
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    ||+1 level of existing spellcasting class and +1 level of existing Infusion class

    10th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Spellsurge Infusions|+1 level of existing spellcasting class and +1 level of existing Infusion class[/table]

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency:Artytheurge's gain no proficency with any weapons, armor, or shields.

    Spells and Infusions per Day When a new Artytheurge level is gained, the character gains new spells and Infusions per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one infusion casting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of Artytheurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and Infusion spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells and Infusions per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one Infusion spellcasting class before he became a Artytheurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of Artytheurge for the purpose of determining spells and Infusions and per day.

    Infusing the Arcana:(Su)
    An Artytheurge can infuse their spells with infusions. Anytime they cast a spell with a target of personal or allies, you may use any Infusion that you know.
    You may use this ability 1/encounter/class level

    Artificer Abilities: An Artytheurge's class levels stack with his Artificer and Artytheurge levels for determining his Item creation feats and Craft reserve. You add your Artytheurge level -2 (minimum of 0), to your Artificer levels.
    Also, designate each of your Item Creation feat with a Metamagic or Spell Focus. At the beginning of each week you may change a Item Creation feat with the designated Spell Focus or Metamagic. At any week after when you have the oppurtunity to swap an item creation feat for a metamagic or spell focus feat, you may swap back the item creation feat.

    Familiar Homunculus (Ex)
    At 2nd level an Artytheurge may dismiss his familier/animal companion/special mount without risking losing xp to give his homunculus his familiar/animal companion/special mount bonuses.
    These bonuses are Natural Armor Adjustment and having the intelligence score changed, as well as any familiar ability's.

    Bonus Feat
    At levels 3 and 7 an Artytheurge gains a Metamagic or Spell focus as a bonus feat.

    Armored Mage (Ex): At 4th level, the ArtyTheurge gains the ability to cast his spells in light armor without suffering arcane spell failure. At 6th level this ability improves to include light shields and at 8th level this improves to include medium armour.(or heavy armor if the character has the Battlecaster feat).

    The only thing you've managed to break so far (Su)
    By 5th level an Artytheurge has never really considered breaking magical items seriously. An Artytherge now has made and experimented with items enough to break them apart and retrieve 50% of Xp and gold used to create it. This includes items artifacts and items found in a pile of treasure that could have been made thousands of years ago.
    You gain 5% extra experiance and gold back for every one of the following requirements you meet:
    You have met or studied the creator or You made the item yourself, (You may not qualify for both)
    You are proficent (or equivalent ability) with item and used it yourself at least 5 times.
    You must be able to craft the item in order to use this ability.
    The Xp gained through this ability us then added to your craft reserve.

    If you have retain essence and all you've managed to break so far then, there is a percentage that the charge will not be used when you use any item with a number of charges. This includes Wands, scrolls and items with a number of charges per day, you may use other items with this ability. The percentage is equal to Artytheurge level + Artificer level + intelligence modifier.

    Also if you have both abilitys then you may retrieve 50% of the gold value of an item when you use retain essence.

    Spellsurge Infusions: (Su)
    By sacrificing a spell slot whilst infusing an item, you may instead apply the infusion to multiple applicable items within reach, up to the level of the spell slot sacrificed. This ability takes a full round action and is usable Int Modifier/encounter.

    Playing an ArtyTheurge:
    You are a spellcaster first and foremost and you will use those abilitys to fight your enemies and empower your allies.


    Combat:
    As with all spellcasters you could contribute in any way. You could even fight with a crossbow and sorcery during combat if your in a pinch.

    Advancement:
    Most Artytheurges will be epic by the time they finish this prestige class and will just stack on more prestige classes to achieve power level: God+1.

    After 10th level an Artytheurge may continue to take levels in it above normal limits. They may continue gaining BAB, Saves and Infusion and spellcasting progression to the point of extremes.

    New feat:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Greater Reservations of the craft:
    You may craft more items of magical power without losing your experience
    Prerequisites:
    Craft Reserve[GENERAL]
    Benefit:
    Your craft reserve is now equal to that of an Artificer 4 levels higher than you. Your Craft Reserve cannot exceed that of an Artificer of your HD.
    Special:
    This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time for a different class with a Craft Reserve.

    Practised Infusioner, (Infusioner? Infusionist?
    Choose an infusing class that you possess. Your Infusions cast
    from that class are more powerful.
    Prerequisite: Spellcraft 4 ranks.
    Benefi t: Your caster level for the chosen Infusing class increases by 4. This benefi t can’t increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice. However, even if you can’t benefi t from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of non Infusing classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus. For example, a human 5th-level sorcerer/3rd-level fi ghter who selects this feat would increase his sorcerer caster level from 5th
    to 8th (since he has 8 Hit Dice). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his sorcerer caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 Hit Dice). A character with two or more Infusing classes (such as a Artificer/Psionic Artificer) must choose which class
    gains the feat’s effect. This feat does not affect your Infusions per day. It increases your caster level only, which would increase the duration and other effects of your Infusions.
    Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different Infusing class. For instance, a 4th-level Artificer/5th-level Psionic Artificer who had selected this feat twice would cast Artificer Infusions as an 8th-level caster and Psionic Artificer Infusions as a 9th-level caster.
    Last edited by Hazzardevil; 2011-08-29 at 01:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    added a new ability.
    And may I have some feedback?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chained Birds View Post
    Just one of those guys vs girls things. Guys like giant, fighting robots that shoot lazerz out their eyes while girls like pretty jewelry that sparkle in the moonlight after having a romantic interlude with a charming gentleman.

    Completely sexist, yes! Completely true, pretty much...
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    The class skills bit is kind of obscure. What do you mean?

    Looking at this, it might be kind of overpowered.

    With the infusion/transmutation spell combination, do you have to add on an infusion?

    What if you read about yourself and use an item you create? Boom, instant xp farm!

    Also, craft is not a class skill and you have a lack of a craft pool. What's up with that?
    Last edited by HalfDragonCube; 2011-05-22 at 10:04 AM.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by giantmudkip View Post
    The class skills bit is kind of obscure. What do you mean?

    Looking at this, it might be kind of overpowered.

    With the infusion/transmutation spell combination, do you have to add on an infusion?

    What if you read about yourself and use an item you create? Boom, instant xp farm!

    Also, craft is not a class skill and you have a lack of a craft pool. What's up with that?
    I meant as in how every caster class is tied to a certain knowledge skill. Wizards and Sorcerer's are tied to Arcana, Druid's and Spirit Shaman's are tied to Nature and Clerics and Favoured Souls are tied to religion, I meant like that.

    What seems over powered in it? Is it dodgy wordings for certain things like being able to exploit the class features for infinite xp and gold? I belive I have fixed it all now.

    The way it is worded it means you can, but don't have to.
    Note the bolding and underline added by me.
    Infusing the Arcana:(Su)
    An Artytheurge can infuse their spells with infusions. Anytime they cast a spell that is from the transmutation spell school or another "buff" spell with a target of personal or allies, you may use any Infusion that you know,
    Craft was a rather silly oversight of me.
    Last edited by Hazzardevil; 2011-05-22 at 01:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chained Birds View Post
    Just one of those guys vs girls things. Guys like giant, fighting robots that shoot lazerz out their eyes while girls like pretty jewelry that sparkle in the moonlight after having a romantic interlude with a charming gentleman.

    Completely sexist, yes! Completely true, pretty much...
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    I meant as in how every caster class is tied to a certain knowledge skill. Wizards and Sorcerer's are tied to Arcana, Druid's and Spirit Shaman's are tied to Nature and Clerics and Favoured Souls are tied to religion, I meant like that.

    What seems over powered in it? Is it dodgy wordings for certain things like being able to exploit the class features for infinite xp and gold? I belive I have fixed it all now.

    The way it is worded it means you can, but don't have to.
    Note the bolding and underline added by me.


    Craft was a rather silly oversight of me.
    Better, but having the ability to tack on an infusion to whatever spells you cast, 3/4 BAB, bonus feats, a craft reserve, relatively high skill points, a familiar, etc. is OP. Frankly, this class currently is just the combination of the class features of the two classes, losing none of them with more stuff added on.

    The class needs some pruning.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by giantmudkip View Post
    Better, but having the ability to tack on an infusion to whatever spells you cast, 3/4 BAB, bonus feats, a craft reserve, relatively high skill points, a familiar, etc. is OP. Frankly, this class currently is just the combination of the class features of the two classes, losing none of them with more stuff added on.

    The class needs some pruning.
    Any suggestions?
    I'm considering cutting down BAB to 1/2 and cutting skills to 3+int mod.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chained Birds View Post
    Just one of those guys vs girls things. Guys like giant, fighting robots that shoot lazerz out their eyes while girls like pretty jewelry that sparkle in the moonlight after having a romantic interlude with a charming gentleman.

    Completely sexist, yes! Completely true, pretty much...
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    Any suggestions?
    I'm considering cutting down BAB to 1/2 and cutting skills to 3+int mod.
    Maybe less than full casting and a daily limit on the Infusing the Arcana class feature. Maybe you should delay some of the class abilities to a later level.

    Also, put a time on how long it takes to break an items for gold and xp. Also, the breaking of items means that you can buy xp and zoom ahead of the group in levels.

    In short, the breaking is broken.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by giantmudkip View Post
    Also, the breaking of items means that you can buy xp and zoom ahead of the group in levels.
    In short, the breaking is broken.
    Nope, it's added to craft reserve so it's only usable on crafting items, doesn't go to your character XP at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by giantmudkip View Post
    Also, put a time on how long it takes to break an items for gold and xp.
    Retain essence requires 1 day with the item so I'd assume this follows suit.

    The ability is actually not as good as retain essence either, and you may wish to put in some sort of proviso in case the character already has retain essence, since they get 100% of the XP just from that. Sure, you get 50% XP and 50% gold from your version, but I'd rather the extra craft reserve personally.

    On a completely unrelated note (to the above, but not the class), I would personally say you want some break-up of the spell-progressions in here, probably do with a level of just infusions (maybe level 1) and a level of just spellcasting (probably level 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    I'm considering cutting down BAB to 1/2 and cutting skills to 3+int mod.
    I'd agree with the BAB, but not the skills.

    Might wanna think about giving an ability allowing you to cast arcane spells in light armour without penalty (since Artificers tend to stomp about in nice shiny armour so they have something decent to infuse and a halfway reasonable AC without too much need for dex.).

    Drop the idea of stacking levels for the sake of bonus feats, just give them a couple as part of the progression, and set them as item creation or metamagic only. 3rd & 7th would be good levels for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by giantmudkip View Post
    ...and a daily limit on the Infusing the Arcana class feature
    Make it 1/day/class level then, gives a scaling progression and reduces nova capability to a more reasonable level.

    In principle though, really nice idea!
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by giantmudkip View Post
    Maybe less than full casting and a daily limit on the Infusing the Arcana class feature. Maybe you should delay some of the class abilities to a later level.

    Also, put a time on how long it takes to break an items for gold and xp. Also, the breaking of items means that you can buy xp and zoom ahead of the group in levels.

    In short, the breaking is broken.
    I have changed the breaking so that the xp goes into the craft reserve instead, that should help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chained Birds View Post
    Just one of those guys vs girls things. Guys like giant, fighting robots that shoot lazerz out their eyes while girls like pretty jewelry that sparkle in the moonlight after having a romantic interlude with a charming gentleman.

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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Opening Again for critiquing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chained Birds View Post
    Just one of those guys vs girls things. Guys like giant, fighting robots that shoot lazerz out their eyes while girls like pretty jewelry that sparkle in the moonlight after having a romantic interlude with a charming gentleman.

    Completely sexist, yes! Completely true, pretty much...
    I have Steam cards and other stuff! I am selling/trading them.

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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    ....This really needs to have its grammar and spelling cleaned up.

    Aside from that, this class needs more abilities, at the least. Looking at this PrC, I really don't see much of a reason to take levels in the class after 5th.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    OK then, half-conscious and semi-formed, an idea is trying to come to me...

    Spellsurge Infusions.
    By sacrificing a spell slot whilst infusing an item, you may instead apply the infusion to multiple applicable items within reach, up to the level of the spell slot sacrificed. This ability takes a full round action and is usable 1/encounter...?

    Also...you may want to address the retain essence/'the only thing you've managed to break so far' issues. I still think retain essence is a far better ability, and if they already have retain essence then what happens to them at level 5 in this?

    EDIT:
    You really need to completely reword and revamp 'Artificer Abilities' too, you've added the bonus feats into the table already and it doesn't actually make much sense, although I think I get what you mean.

    There's more...stuff, in the back of my head. But I've been working for 16 hours so I'm gonna go to bed and try to make my brain work tomorrow instead.
    I may succeed.
    Stranger things have happened...
    Last edited by Veklim; 2011-08-18 at 05:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Added a clause for what happens to the Artytheurge when they have retain essence and the only thing you've managed to break so far. Shamelessly stolen from Turbine's Dungeons and Dragons online's new Artificer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chained Birds View Post
    Just one of those guys vs girls things. Guys like giant, fighting robots that shoot lazerz out their eyes while girls like pretty jewelry that sparkle in the moonlight after having a romantic interlude with a charming gentleman.

    Completely sexist, yes! Completely true, pretty much...
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Changed some wording on the requirements for the class and nothing else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chained Birds View Post
    Just one of those guys vs girls things. Guys like giant, fighting robots that shoot lazerz out their eyes while girls like pretty jewelry that sparkle in the moonlight after having a romantic interlude with a charming gentleman.

    Completely sexist, yes! Completely true, pretty much...
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    The rewording and proviso added for 'The only thing you've managed to break so far' is still pointless dude. Retain Essence, as written in the Eberron campaign setting, gives you the full XP (direct to craft reserve) used in crafting the item you've broken down. All you need is the appropriate item creation feat for whatever you're dismantling and a day (8 hours) with the item.

    So, as it is now, you're removing half the XP you could already gain to your reserve, for the sake of getting half the materials (i.e. gp) back too. This is what's known as a s****y deal where I come from. Cash is rarely ever a problem by the time you hit level 5 (where you gain Retain Essence as an artificer), but XP is at a premium for crafting purposes (beyond cheap potions and scrolls) until level 9 or 10 really.

    You also need to elaborate GREATLY on the familiar/homunculus thing, since familiars have virtual HD equal to their master's, with precisely half the hp of your own and can run off your base saves and skill ranks if better than their own, whereas homunculii can have up to a maximum of 2 less HD than their master calculated like normal hp, and can only use their own saves and skill ranks. Both of these effects run off character level, not class level. Also, you should clarify whether this PrC stacks seperately for familiar abilities, or whether you add wizard (or whichever familiar granting class you have), this PrC AND artificer to determine familiar abilities, since your homunculus doesn't care how many artificer levels you have, just your character level.
    Last edited by Veklim; 2011-08-22 at 05:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    That's looking a bit better

    OK, onto the finer details!!!

    You have bonus feats listed in the table, but you have also granted continued feat gains from Artificer Abilities, you should really chose one or the other. If you chose to stick with the idea of Artytheurge stacking with Artificer and/or Wizard (is it both?) levels for feats, then don't drop the PrC level by 2 for the calculation, you're already dropping a fair bit to theurge at all!

    The percentage is equal to Artytheurge level + Artificer level + intelligence modifier.
    This will likely start at about 15-17% and go up from there, was this intentional? Either way, very nice ability dude, I approve and may well have to shamelessly plagiarise at some point (with credit to you of course! )

    I do worry that these guys won't be able to fully use their own infusions, since they can't wear any form of armour or shield without spell failure issues, perhaps consider giving them Armoured Mage (light)...? These guys will never get past level 7 arcane spells, and only just get access to level 6 infusions (i.e. 1 of them) by level 20 as it stands, so you can afford to give them a little hand. Especially since anyone who's actually played into this PrC has had to get to wizard 5/artificer 5 within a game, not easy to survive without feeling kinda pathetic!

    Perhaps consider giving them an ability allowing them to supress the effects of magic items at the expense of infusion slots, and a second one allowing them to deliver touch range infusions at a distance at the expense of arcane spell slots.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    That's looking a bit better

    OK, onto the finer details!!!

    You have bonus feats listed in the table, but you have also granted continued feat gains from Artificer Abilities, you should really chose one or the other. If you chose to stick with the idea of Artytheurge stacking with Artificer and/or Wizard (is it both?) levels for feats, then don't drop the PrC level by 2 for the calculation, you're already dropping a fair bit to theurge at all!

    I gave the craft reserve and item creation feats so they wouldn't just be wizard with infusions and leftover experiance that is only fir for potions.

    This will likely start at about 15-17% and go up from there, was this intentional? Either way, very nice ability dude, I approve and may well have to shamelessly plagiarise at some point (with credit to you of course! )
    I actually stole it from the Dungeons and Dragons online Artificer, it was ironically, the Retain Essence ability for the Artificers only the formula was different.
    I do worry that these guys won't be able to fully use their own infusions, since they can't wear any form of armour or shield without spell failure issues, perhaps consider giving them Armoured Mage (light)...? These guys will never get past level 7 arcane spells, and only just get access to level 6 infusions (i.e. 1 of them) by level 20 as it stands, so you can afford to give them a little hand. Especially since anyone who's actually played into this PrC has had to get to wizard 5/artificer 5 within a game, not easy to survive without feeling kinda pathetic!
    I'll give it at 4th level, that's where a lot of gish classes give light armour and take it to medium at level 8, although I might give shields at level 6.
    Perhaps consider giving them an ability allowing them to supress the effects of magic items at the expense of infusion slots, and a second one allowing them to deliver touch range infusions at a distance at the expense of arcane spell slots.
    That sounds like a good idea, I'll make a class without dead levels yet!
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    I gave the craft reserve and item creation feats so they wouldn't just be wizard with infusions and leftover experiance that is only fir for potions.
    Not arguing with that, it's a very good idea. What I mean is you've allowed them to continue gaining the Artificer bonus feats granted by level progression, but you've also listed 2 levels on this PrC where you gain a bonus feat. That makes for quite a few feats if I understand correctly.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Not arguing with that, it's a very good idea. What I mean is you've allowed them to continue gaining the Artificer bonus feats granted by level progression, but you've also listed 2 levels on this PrC where you gain a bonus feat. That makes for quite a few feats if I understand correctly.
    Those bonus feats were supposed to be Metamagic's and Spell Focuses, but I forgot to specify what they were.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Ahhh, much better
    That's not too shoddy as it stands now, the metamagic/spell focus only restriction certainly reduces abusability and keeps up the wizard's half of the feat gain. However, you could have issues depending on how you interpret this:
    An Artytheurge's class levels stack with his Artificer and Casting levels for determining his Item creation feats and Craft reserve. For the purposes of this calculation, reduce your Artytheurge level by 2.
    The bonus feats gained this way or through Artificer levels from now on also allow you to choose wizard bonus feats.
    Assuming you're 5 Artificer/ 5 Wizard/ 1 Artytheurge
    My initial interpretation: (Which seems kinda ridiculous, but stands up grammatically)
    Add up Artificer, Wizard and Artytheurge levels (11), then subtract 2 (9). You count as a level 9 Artificer for the purpose of determining when you gain item creation feats and craft reserve.
    Firstly, you would jump from an effective level 5 to a level 9 artificer, granting you:
    Triple the craft reserve (100 jumps to 300)
    Craft Wand AND Craft Rod
    Every level you gain in Artytheurge increases you craft reserve (perfectly reasonable btw) and bonus Artificer item creation feats (that's for craft staff in 4 PrC levels and forge ring in 6). Add in the 2 bonus within the class, and the 3 feats from HD, that's 9 feats in 10 levels, 5 of which are chosen relatively freely.

    My second interpretation: (Which is far more likely...)
    Add up Artificer, Wizard and Artytheurge levels, subtract 2, you count as a level 9 artificer for the use of any item creation feat you have, and may now choose to take a meta-magic feat in place of any bonus item creation feat you gain from future Artificer levels.
    This gives you:
    Triple the craft reserve (same as above)
    Better crafting capabilities (level 5 to level 9 jump for effective CL on all items you create)
    A slightly more varied choice on bonus feat allocation.

    Either of the above seem perfectly reasonable to assume from the wording of this ability, and only one is within sensible limits. I will happily clarify wording, or help you to do as much yourself, but I need to know what it's meant to do first!


    On a side issue, the usage of Spellsurge Infusions should probably become Int modifier/day.

    How about ending on a high note...?

    Disruptive Feedback:
    At level 9, the Artytheurge learns how to combine infusions with arcana to momentarily supress the enchantments of nearby objects. As a move action, you target a specific enchanted item within 10ft and attempt to supress all magic on that item (a supressed item is treated as a completely mundane item of it's type, but still masterworked if this applies). This effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn. Expend an arcane spell slot and an infusion slot from your daily allotments and add the levels together to determine the total effective magic bonus you can supress. If the number equals or exceeds the item's bonus then you succeed, if not then you fail. There is no save. For example, if you sacrifice a level 5 spell and a level 3 infusion you may supress the item as long as it's total effective magic bonus is +8 or less.
    This ability is usable a number of times per day equal to your Int modifier.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Ahhh, much better
    That's not too shoddy as it stands now, the metamagic/spell focus only restriction certainly reduces abusability and keeps up the wizard's half of the feat gain. However, you could have issues depending on how you interpret this:

    Assuming you're 5 Artificer/ 5 Wizard/ 1 Artytheurge
    My initial interpretation: (Which seems kinda ridiculous, but stands up grammatically)
    Add up Artificer, Wizard and Artytheurge levels (11), then subtract 2 (9). You count as a level 9 Artificer for the purpose of determining when you gain item creation feats and craft reserve.
    Firstly, you would jump from an effective level 5 to a level 9 artificer, granting you:
    Triple the craft reserve (100 jumps to 300)
    Craft Wand AND Craft Rod
    Every level you gain in Artytheurge increases you craft reserve (perfectly reasonable btw) and bonus Artificer item creation feats (that's for craft staff in 4 PrC levels and forge ring in 6). Add in the 2 bonus within the class, and the 3 feats from HD, that's 9 feats in 10 levels, 5 of which are chosen relatively freely.

    My second interpretation: (Which is far more likely...)
    Add up Artificer, Wizard and Artytheurge levels, subtract 2, you count as a level 9 artificer for the use of any item creation feat you have, and may now choose to take a meta-magic feat in place of any bonus item creation feat you gain from future Artificer levels.
    This gives you:
    Triple the craft reserve (same as above)
    Better crafting capabilities (level 5 to level 9 jump for effective CL on all items you create)
    A slightly more varied choice on bonus feat allocation.

    Either of the above seem perfectly reasonable to assume from the wording of this ability, and only one is within sensible limits. I will happily clarify wording, or help you to do as much yourself, but I need to know what it's meant to do first!


    On a side issue, the usage of Spellsurge Infusions should probably become Int modifier/day.

    How about ending on a high note...?

    Disruptive Feedback:
    At level 9, the Artytheurge learns how to combine infusions with arcana to momentarily supress the enchantments of nearby objects. As a move action, you target a specific enchanted item within 10ft and attempt to supress all magic on that item (a supressed item is treated as a completely mundane item of it's type, but still masterworked if this applies). This effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn. Expend an arcane spell slot and an infusion slot from your daily allotments and add the levels together to determine the total effective magic bonus you can supress. If the number equals or exceeds the item's bonus then you succeed, if not then you fail. There is no save. For example, if you sacrifice a level 5 spell and a level 3 infusion you may supress the item as long as it's total effective magic bonus is +8 or less.
    This ability is usable a number of times per day equal to your Int modifier.
    But you don't add wizard levels to it.
    And just so you know the intended entry is wizard or Artificer 5, then 1 level of the other and take practiced spellcaster to shore up Caster Level.
    Also, I need to say that the -2 penalty only applys on Artytheurge, so a level 5 Artificer/Artytheurge I only get level 5 craft reserve. Not sure how to word that.
    Also, I don't understand where you got the idea you can swap item creation feats for metamagic's, but I might add that in.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    But you don't add wizard levels to it.
    And just so you know the intended entry is wizard or Artificer 5, then 1 level of the other and take practiced spellcaster to shore up Caster Level.
    ahhh, fair enough. That's not overly clear, this gave me the impression you DO add any Wizard (or other arcane caster) levels:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    An Artytheurge's class levels stack with his Artificer and Casting levels for determining his Item creation feats and Craft reserve.
    ...which leads me to...
    Also, I need to say that the -2 penalty only applys on Artytheurge, so a level 5 Artificer/Artytheurge I only get level 5 craft reserve. Not sure how to word that.
    Fair enough, but until you sort out what you mean with the above, then I can't get what you mean here either. What it sounds like is that you want to say:
    'You may add your Artytheurge level -2 (minimum of 0), to your Artificer levels...'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    Also, I don't understand where you got the idea you can swap item creation feats for metamagic's, but I might add that in.
    I got that idea from this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    The bonus feats gained this way...
    Which way, by the way? Artificers get a bonus feat selection, but they're not item creation ones, all those are listed idividually by name on the Artificer class table.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    ...or through Artificer levels from now on also allow you to choose wizard bonus feats.
    what is this meant to say then?

    ...on the other hand, this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    Also, designate each of your Item Creation feat with a Metamagic or Spell Focus. At the beginning of each week you may change a Item Creation feat with the designated Spell Focus or Metamagic.
    is rather snacky, I think I like that quite a lot.
    You may wish to say what happens if they wanna change back though...
    Last edited by Veklim; 2011-08-26 at 08:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    ahhh, fair enough. That's not overly clear, this gave me the impression you DO add any Wizard (or other arcane caster) levels:
    That was me forgetting I had put it in.
    ...which leads me to...

    Fair enough, but until you sort out what you mean with the above, then I can't get what you mean here either. What it sounds like is that you want to say:
    'You may add your Artytheurge level -2 (minimum of 0), to your Artificer levels...'

    Yes that's what I was trying to say.
    I got that idea from this:
    Which way, by the way? Artificers get a bonus feat selection, but they're not item creation ones, all those are listed idividually by name on the Artificer class table.
    what is this meant to say then?
    The Artificer got Metamagic's and things that focused on crafting, I see the Artytheurge as more a Caster with the ability to make items for the party.
    ...on the other hand, this:
    is rather snacky, I think I like that quite a lot.
    You may wish to say what happens if they wanna change back though...
    I'll say you can change it back any week after.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    The Artificer got Metamagic's and things that focused on crafting, I see the Artytheurge as more a Caster with the ability to make items for the party.
    If that's the case then why do the requirements push towards Art.5/Wiz.1 ? Surely it should be the other way around if they're meant to be primarily spellcasters..? Practiced Spellcaster doesn't affect infusions at all, as far as I remember. One of the huge problems with Artificers is their almost complete lack of support materials in publication (as far as I've ever come across), due to the fundamental differences between casting and infusing. They behave similarly but are not the same thing.

    This is why I have been confused, since the beginning, as to why you didn't aim for the usual theurge requirement pattern and ask for 3rd level (or thereabouts) in each class. Personally I would have chosen to go for 'Ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells and ability to use 2nd level infusions', which does drop the power rating a little from one side, but bolsters the other and keeps in line with just about every other theurge PrC I remember seeing.

    If you're dead-set on using the practiced spellcaster approach, you first need to brew a re-wording of the feat, and present it above the class AND in the requirements, otherwise this only really works for Art.5/Wiz.1

    On the bright side, once this scrubs up and re-words for clarity and concise phrasing, I think this could work nicely. You still need to fill up the level 9 vacuum, did you dislike the other suggestions or do you have something bubbling already?
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    If that's the case then why do the requirements push towards Art.5/Wiz.1 ? Surely it should be the other way around if they're meant to be primarily spellcasters..? Practiced Spellcaster doesn't affect infusions at all, as far as I remember. One of the huge problems with Artificers is their almost complete lack of support materials in publication (as far as I've ever come across), due to the fundamental differences between casting and infusing. They behave similarly but are not the same thing.
    To my knowledge practised spellcaster works with artificer, since it affects caster level which artificers have.
    This is why I have been confused, since the beginning, as to why you didn't aim for the usual theurge requirement pattern and ask for 3rd level (or thereabouts) in each class. Personally I would have chosen to go for 'Ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells and ability to use 2nd level infusions', which does drop the power rating a little from one side, but bolsters the other and keeps in line with just about every other theurge PrC I remember seeing.
    I chose Caster Level requirements so Warlocks could qualify and to stop there being the heighten, versatile trick.
    If you're dead-set on using the practiced spellcaster approach, you first need to brew a re-wording of the feat, and present it above the class AND in the requirements, otherwise this only really works for Art.5/Wiz.1
    I think it works simply because it says you need a spellcasting class for it to work. Artificer is a casting class, it just isn't arcane or divine.
    On the bright side, once this scrubs up and re-words for clarity and concise phrasing, I think this could work nicely. You still need to fill up the level 9 vacuum, did you dislike the other suggestions or do you have something bubbling already?
    I'm planning on leaving level 9 blank, since the capstone is pretty powerful, I might throw in something simple like Armoured Mage (Heavy Shield).
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Give it full +1/+1 casting. Otherwise this class is making you a worse wizard *and* a worse artificer, all at the same time. Additionally, so new players who don't know about Practiced Spellcaster don't screw themselves over, actually make the feat a prerequisite to enter the class.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    To paraphrase the first line of Infusions on the Artificer class:

    The Artificer isn't a spellcaster, but it can imbue items with magical infusions.

    Unfortunately the Eberron Campaign Setting isn't OGL, or I would quote you directly. Either way, Artificers ARE NOT spellcasters. This is why the class description then goes on, at some great length I might add, to list all the ways Artificers are like spellcasters. They can't even use spell completion items for free if they contain a spell appearing on their infusion list, it's UMD all the way, because they're different. Later it explains how can can still use meta-magic on your infusions (like a sorcerer), because strictly it wouldn't be possible otherwise, the stipulation is all in the first line.

    I would like to know the general consensus on this issue actually, I've debated with fellow DMs in RL at home for considerable time, and we don't see any other good way of interpreting this.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    I always presumed it worked, although now, I'm not so sure it works now, I'll just homebrew a feat that works and put one or the other as a requirement.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    Quote Originally Posted by mootoall View Post
    Give it full +1/+1 casting. Otherwise this class is making you a worse wizard *and* a worse artificer, all at the same time. Additionally, so new players who don't know about Practiced Spellcaster don't screw themselves over, actually make the feat a prerequisite to enter the class.
    Someone said I should change it, to 9/10 for both, although I'm going to change it back.

    Edit: Added the Practiced Infuser feat, the feat that has always existed, just no-one has realized it.

    I always presumed it worked, although now, I'm not so sure it works now, I'll just homebrew a feat that works and put one or the other as a requirement.
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    Default Re: Artytheurge, an all new Theurge prestige class!

    ...this class is making you a worse wizard *and* a worse artificer, all at the same time...
    This is true of all theurge PrCs I know of, fact is you're doing both at the same time. As it is now, you can get to effective level 15 in, let's say Wizard, by level 16, dropping 1 single paltry level of spells for the sake of also counting as a level 11 Artificer for infusions/day (but at level 15 CL).

    This is frankly ridiculous in my mind, you're talking about a near-gestalt build PrC. It's now so far off-balance that the scales have been lost completely.

    If the balancing were up to me, I'd be far more tempted to drop spell/infusion gain COMPLETELY at levels 1 & 10, since this class is looking a bit pokey just now. At least that way, our Wiz 5 / Art 1 / Artytheurge 10 would only count as a level 13 Wizard, level 9 Artificer (at CL 13), with a couple of really nice abilities to augment his buff potential.

    This is before I even get to the fact that a Cleric could come through this the same way, and with the buff/debuff potentials of that mix, these guys could break encounters.

    With that all out of the way (sorry about the rant), perhaps it's time to address wording issues!

    Infusing the Arcana needs expanding. After it says;
    ...you may use any Infusion that you know
    you should add:
    'with an infusing time equal to or less than the casting time of the spell. This requires no additional time, the infusion is used as part of the same action as casting the spell, upon the same target as the spell. If the spell could target more than 1 ally (yourself included) then the infusion applies only to the first person touched.'

    I think that covers most eventualities!

    Artificer Abilities should probably drop this line:
    The bonus feats gained this way or through Artificer levels from now on also allow you to choose wizard bonus feats.
    It's a nice idea, but with the 'feat swap' caveat you threw in a couple of days ago, the above line becomes a completely moot point.

    Familiar Homunculus could be simplified by removing the second line and putting in it's place 'Refer to table on page 53 PHB for these bonuses.'
    Also, this ability is only any use to arcane (and not even all of them) casters, any other class won't get the benefit. I doubt it's a problem, but I feel a bit sad

    That's about it for now!
    All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.

    My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
    Co-Developer of the Mutant Powers Project:
    World Warper
    Telekineticist and ACFs, Feats, Shadow Hand PrC

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