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    Default Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    The Weapon Styles

    This project started up as a side effect of a rather lengthy debate about Two Weapon Fighting. I decided that trying to balance the weapon styles was more potentially constructive than arguing about why one is better than the other. Initially, my thought was to have only 3 weapon styles, but ultimately that fell flat due to the fact that it doesn't really encompass the various styles of fighting D&D characters take up. And so the project evolved, and now we have our styles: Two Weapon Fighting, Two Handed Fighting, Reach Combat, Shield Fighting, One Handed Fighting, Ranged Combat, Unarmed Combat. Of course there is a fair degree of mixing and matching between these that can be done as well.

    The goal is to make each of these viable options, if not all equal damage, at least similar in damage, and each with their own perks and utility.

    Systemic Changes

    The first part of rebalancing the weapon styles means tearing down some of the foundations of the styles from 3.5. This involves some changes to how some of the core mechanics work. The main goal of these changes is reducing feat taxes placed upon certain builds.

    TWFing Change: Fighting with Two Weapons is now treated as a Martial Weapon Proficiency. If you have a proficiency with two weapon fighting, you may attack with both weapons with a -4 penalty (-2 if the offhand weapon is light), as a full attack action. As a part of a full attack you may make an additional offhand attack for every main hand attack from base attack bonus. If you lack the proficiency, you take an additional -4 penalty to all attacks.

    In addition to classes with martial weapon proficiency, Rogues have this proficiency for free.

    THFing Change: Wielding a weapon with two hands gains you no special benefits unless you take a feat that increases the benefits of having a second hand on the weapon. Power Attack loses its default bonus damage for having a two hander

    Ranged Combat Change: The penalty for firing into melee no longer exists. The penalty for doing so is accurately enough modeled by the cover rules, having both is an unnecessary feat tax. Also, the majority of the Archery feats are either feats that don't need to be archery only (Rapidshot, Manyshot), already covered by non-range specific feats (Spring Attack/Shot on The Run), or not particularly useful (when's the last time you needed to snipe someone from half a mile away with Far Shot?). So basically all feats currently targetted towards range cease to exist, and are either left to rot, replaced by the feats in this topic, or should be adapted to work with both melee and range.

    Shield Change: The bashing property no longer exists, being rolled into Shield Bash Mastery, to reduce reliance on a specific magic item to deal decent damage with your shield. The Animated Property also no longer exists, because squirrel.

    Light/Finessible Weapon Change: Weapon Finesse no longer exists as a feat. If you are wielding a weapon that is light, or has the finessible property, then you may opt to use your strength or dexterity modifier to attack, whichever is higher.

    Unarmed Combat Change: Unarmed Combat is considered a simple weapon proficiency, that is now granted to Monks, Swordsages, and all characters who have proficiency in all simple weapons. Having proficiency in unarmed combat means that you do not provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed attack, and you do not take the non-proficiency penalty to attack rolls.

    Two-Weapon Fighting

    Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Proficiency with two-weapon fighting
    Benefit: Any time you make a single attack (such as a standard action attack, an attack of opportunity, or a charge), you may attack with both of your weapons. Additionally, any bonus attacks you gain from sources other than base attack bonus on a full attack now also grant an offhand attack.


    Two-Weapon Rend [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB+3
    Benefit: You may add your full strength modifier to offhand damage. When you deal damage with both of your weapons to a target on the same turn, you automatically deal extra damage as if you hit with your offhand weapon, with damage bonuses from attribute doubled. You may deal damage with this feat once per target per round. Additionally, your penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced further. The penalty for your primary hand and offhand lessens by 1 per 5 points of base attack bonus you possess (the penalty cannot be reduced below 0).

    Two-Weapon Defense [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB+6
    Benefit: You gain a +2 shield bonus to armor class while wielding a weapon in each hand. While fighting defensively, you may increase this bonus by 50% (round up). While taking a full defense action, you may double this bonus.

    Additionally, if an attack made against you while fighting defensively or taking a full defense action misses, you may make a free attack with your offhand weapon against the opponent. This attack may not be used for any special maneuvers, but does not count as an attack of opportunity.


    Two Handed Fighting

    Feats:
    Improved Two-Handed Fighting [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Str 13, proficiency with a weapon that may be held in two hands.
    Benefit: While wielding a weapon with both hands, your damage bonus from strength is increased by 50%. Additionally, if you have the Power Attack feat and this feat, while wielding a two handed weapon your damage bonus from power attack is doubled.

    Mighty Blows [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Improved Two-Handed Fighting, BAB+3
    Benefit: While wielding a two handed weapon, your base weapon damage is increased as if you were one size category larger, plus an additional size category if your BAB is above +10. Additionally, your strength modifier to damage with two handed weapons is increased by another 50% (so your strength bonus to damage is now doubled).
    Special: Your weapon's effective size may not exceed colossal.

    Forceful Blow [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Improved Two-Handed Fighting, BAB+6
    Benefit: You have learned to leverage the power of a two-handed weapon to your advantage. As a standard action while wielding a weapon in two hands, you may make a special bull rush attempt that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. For this attempt increase your effective size by 1 size category for every 5 points of BAB you possess.

    If your check beats the opponent's, you deal damage as though you succeeded on a normal attack. If your check beats the opponent's by 5 or more, you may knock the opponent back more than 5 feet without moving with him, and deal an additional 1d6 damage for every 5 feet the opponent is knocked back. An opponent who is moved more than 15 feet in this way must make a Fortitude save DC10+1/2 your HD+str mod, or be dazed for 1 round.



    Reach Weapons
    Reach Weapon Specialist [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Proficiency with at least one reach weapon.
    Benefit: You are capable of striking opponents adjacent to you with any reach weapon that you hold. Additionally, while wielding a reach weapon, you may take additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to 1/4th your base attack bonus, plus your dexterity modifier.
    Special: This feat may be used in place of Combat Reflexes to meet the prerequisites to qualify for other feats or prestige classes. The benefits of this feat and Combat Reflexes do not stack.

    Lockdown [Style][Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Reach Weapon Specialist, BAB+3
    Benefit: You gain a bonus to all attacks of opportunity made against an opponent you attacked on your turn equal to your dexterity modifier. Additionally, any enemy you attack has its move speed cut in half until the start of your next turn (this effect can only apply once per enemy per turn).

    If this effect is triggered by an attack of opportunity provoked by movement, their new move speed is considered their maximum movement for that action, if their remaining movement for the round is dropped to 0, they immediately stop, if it is dropped below 0, they fall prone.


    Harrier [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Reach Weapon Specialist, BAB+6
    Benefit: Your reach is increased by 5 feet while wielding a reach weapon. Additionally, all enemies within your reach take a penalty equal to 1/4th your base attack bonus to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks.


    Unarmed Combat
    Improved Unarmed Strike [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Proficiency in unarmed combat
    Benefit: Your Unarmed Strike damage is increased to 2d6 and you no longer take a penalty to attack rolls while attacking an opponent while grappling. If your BAB is +3 or higher, you may treat your fists as Masterwork

    Additionally, upon taking this feat, you may choose to treat your unarmed attacks as a single one handed weapon, two weapons, or a two handed weapon, at will. Changing between these styles requires a swift action. Using your unarmed strike as a two handed weapon or as two weapons does require having both hands free, even if you strike with other parts of your body.

    Special: Monks gain this feat as a bonus feat at level 1, instead of the normal monk unarmed damage scaling.

    Ranged Combat
    Precise Shot [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisites: Dex 13
    Benefit: You may designate one ally as a free action, you may ignore this ally when determining if a target has soft cover relative to you. You additionally gain +1 to attack rolls and +1 per 4 points of BAB to damage rolls while using a ranged weapon within 1 range increment of your target.

    Piercing Shots [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisites: Precise Shot, BAB+3
    Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon, you may add your dexterity modifier to damage rolls with a ranged weapon. Additionally when using power attack with a bow or a two-handed crossbow, you can choose to gain 2d6 damage per 3 points of BAB sacrificed rather than the normal 1 point of damage per point of hit sacrificed.

    Missile Mastery [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisites: Precise Shot, BAB+6
    Benefit: Choose 1 ally within 1 range increment of a ranged weapon you attacked with this turn. Until the beginning of your next turn, you can take attacks of opportunity if an enemy provokes an attack from that ally. For every 10 points of base attack bonus you possess, you can treat your threatened area as if you had 5 foot greater reach than your ally.

    Other feats that increase your reach do not affect this threatened area. Additionally, this feat enables you to use combat maneuvers (such as disarm, grapple, and trip) with a ranged weapon against targets within one range increment, though you take a -4 penalty to the check.


    One Weapon Fighting

    Einhander [Style] [Fighter]
    Benefit: When attacking with a one handed weapon held in one hand, and no other weapons, you gain +2 to hit and Armor Class, plus an additional bonus to damage equal to your dexterity modifier. Apply double the bonus to hit as a bonus to any combat maneuvers made while wielding a one handed weapon in one hand.


    Parry and Riposte [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Einhander, BAB+3
    Benefit: When attacking with a single one handed weapon held in one hand, you can choose to take a -4 penalty to all attack rolls to have a chance to parry any melee attack made against you. Any time an enemy in melee makes an attack roll against you, you can make an opposing attack roll at your highest bonus (with the -4 penalty), if your roll is higher, the attack misses. If you beat the opponent's roll by at least 5, you may take an attack of opportunity against the opponent.

    Special: If you have a weapon or shield in your offhand that is granting a bonus to armor class that you did not attack with this turn, you may add that bonus to all attack rolls made to parry.

    Flashy Offensive [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Einhander, BAB+6
    Benefit: When attacking with a single one handed weapon held in one hand, you can feint as a free action once per round, and as an attack option during a full round attack. Additionally, when you use Power Attack with a one handed weapon in one hand, you can gain +1d6 damage for every 2 points of BAB sacrificed.


    Sword and Board
    Shield Fighter [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Proficiency with a shield
    Benefit: When you attack an enemy you can choose to make an intimidate check, with a bonus equal to your constitution modifier, against the enemy's Will Save. If they fail this check, they must include you as a target of any attack it makes, or take a penalty equal to 1/3 of your BAB (round up) to all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability DCs until it resumes attacking you. You may have this effect active on up to 1 enemy, plus one additional enemy per 4 points of base attack bonus you possess (round down). This effect lasts 5 minutes.

    Additionally, your shield bonus to armor class increases by 1, and your shield bonus applies to your Touch AC, Reflex Saves, and when defending against combat maneuvers.

    Shield Bash Mastery [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Fighter, BAB+3
    Benefit: When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC, and your shield is considered 2 size categories larger when determining the damage it deals. When you hit an enemy with both your mainhand weapon and your shield on the same turn, the enemy must make a Fortitude Save DC 10+1/2 HD+Level, or be dazed until the beginning of your next turn.


    Warder [Style] [Fighter]
    Prerequisite: Einhander, Shield Fighter, BAB+3
    Benefit: While wielding a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, but not attacking with the shield, you gain soft cover, and can treat squares you threaten as granting soft cover to allies. When you fight defensively, or take a full defense action, you can choose to block line of effect to squares directly behind you, plus an extra 5 feet around you per 8 points of base attack bonus, to a maximum of your reach. This does not prevent spells from affecting you. (So at BAB+16, you can block line of effect through your square, and up to 10ft away from you, as long as you have a reach of 10ft)

    Additionally, any ally within your reach gains half your shield bonus to armor class (this does not stack with existing shield bonuses if any), and is treated as if under the effects of a Shield Other spell, cast by you.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2012-01-11 at 03:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Generic Feats

    The following feats are modified versions of existing feats that have been changed to help the balance between the styles, by making the feats available to all styles. This particularly helps a fighter or other character with many feats who wants to pursue more than one fighting style, by allowing more of the feats to synergize.


    Power Attack
    Prerequisites: Str 13, BAB+1
    Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all attack rolls and add the same number to all damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.


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    The change? No more free bonus damage for two handers. You get that from Improved Two-Handed Fighting. Also no penalty for using it with light weapons, which helps out both TWFing and Einhander if you're inclined to fight with something like a short sword or dagger. It now also works for Archery. Other weapon style feats will likely also change how this feat interacts with their weapon style, making it a more flexible feat


    Rapid Attack
    Prerequisites: Dex 15, Base Attack Bonus +6
    Benefit: As a standard action, you may make two attacks at a single opponent. Both attacks use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).
    For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one attack to this action, to a maximum of four attacks at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each attack after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three attacks and -8 for four). Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each attack.

    Special:
    Regardless of the number of attacks made, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first attack made deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

    Special: If you have Improved Two Weapon Fighting, when using this feat you may make an attack with each weapon for every attack granted by this feat via BAB. Normal Two Weapon Fighting penalties apply. For example a character with this feat and improved two weapon fighting at BAB+16 would make 4 attacks with both their mainhand and offhand, at a -8 penalty.

    Greater Rapid Attack
    Prerequisites: Dex 15, Base Attack Bonus +6
    Benefit: When you use the Rapid Attack feat, you may choose to attack different opponents with each attack, instead of using all attacks on the same target. You make a separate attack roll for each attack, regardless of whether you attack separate targets or the same target. Your precision-based damage applies to each attack, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one attack, each critical hit deals critical damage.

    Flurry
    Prerequisites: BAB+1
    Benefit: You may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When making a full round attack, you may make one extra attack in a round at your highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as is each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity you might make before your next action.

    Improved Flurry
    Prerequisites: BAB+11, Flurry
    Benefit: When using your Flurry feat you no longer take a penalty to attack rolls. You may alternatively choose to take a -2 penalty to attack rolls to gain a second extra attack during a full attack action.

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    Multi-Attack and Flurry are adaptions of Rapid Shot and Manyshot, made to work with all fighting styles, rather than being range specific. These + power attack were the biggest offenders in things being kept separate for ranged and every other style out there. So now, if you want to specialize in having a ton of attacks, even on a standard action, that isn't exclusive to being a range specialist. I also imagine that Flurry/Imp Flurry could turn into bonus feats for the monk rather than it having a separate class feature)



    Flurry of the Adamantine Shield
    Benefit: You gain a Dodge bonus to Armor Class until the end of your next turn after making an attack action equal to +2 per successful attack made. The attacks must be made as a part of the same action for the bonus to stack. Attacks made with different actions do not stack, only the highest bonus applies.
    Special: A fighter may select Flurry of the Adamantine Shield as one of his fighter bonus feats.

    Pushback
    Prerequisites: Flurry of the Adamantine Shield, Base Attack Bonus +6
    Benefits: Whenever you make an attack, you may push back the target of the attack a distance equal to 5 feet per successful attack made on that target. If the full attack targets multiple targets, each is pushed back a distance equal to the number of successful attacks made on them individually. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 ECL + Dexterity modifier) halves the distance pushed back. The distance pushed is calculated at the end of the current action, so if you take a full attack, the target is not pushed until the full attack is resolved entirely. A target may only be pushed back in this way once per round.
    Special: A fighter may select Pushback as one of his fighter bonus feats.

    Overwhelming Assault
    Prerequisites: Flurry of the Adamantine Shield, Base Attack Bonus +6
    Benefits: Whenever you make an attack, you gain a bonus to attack rolls until the end of your next turn equal to the number of successful attacks made in the attack, after the attacks in the attack resolve. The attacks must be made as a part of the same action for the bonus to stack. Attacks made with different actions do not stack, only the highest bonus applies.
    Special: A fighter may select Overwhelming Assault as one of his fighter bonus feats.

    Spoiler
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    The Flurry of Adamantine Shield feats are new feats courtesy of unosarta, that emphasize the benefit of taking multiple attacks, synergizing particularly well with TWFing, but work well with any of the styles.



    Spring Attack
    Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
    Benefit: When using the attack action, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

    You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

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    A slight, change. Shot on the Run has been rolled into Spring Attack, which now works any time you take an attack action, rather than working on melee only. This is a slight buff for archers who now no longer deal with AoOs from their target when using spring attack (a benefit which was not included in shot on the run), but for 3 feats, I'd say more power to them.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2012-02-13 at 11:38 AM.
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Reserved for future use.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-11-13 at 01:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Define what you mean by Control? If you mean something akin to "battlefield control" then I have no idea why wielding a two-handed weapon should suddenly make you a controller.
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    In my opinion, TWF is not about damage (which I assume is what you mean by Offence). To me, that's the province of the Two-Handers. I would make the following changes:

    TWF:

    High Control, Medium Defence, Low Offence.

    Two-Handed:

    High Offence, Medium Control, Low Defence.

    The way two-handed has always been seen by the rules is that it deals more damage (look at Power Attack, for an example of two-handed getting more damage than other styles). Furthermore, one could conceive the ability of a warrior damaging multiple (clustered) enemies with a single sweep, as a variation on Cleave. Furthermore, by having no shield or off-hand weapon, and being so focused in dealing damage, it stands to reason it should have a poor defence.

    TWF, on the other hand, is more about attacking more often, not about dealing more damage. TWF often has less accuracy and deals less damage than any other style, and it offers bonus in the way of Defence to compensate (though I recognise it shouldn't be on the same level as S&B). To me, TWF has always been about battlefield manoeuvring (since it requires a high Dexterity, which implies a build geared towards agility and evasion, rather than the brute strength that would imply a high Offence), and all the possible "riders" that can be applied to attacks, such as some class features that allow the character to channel spells or effects through his attacks. That still doesn't necessarily mean damage, for it can very easily mean poison, or a Chill Touch or Touch of Idiocy effect that disables multiple foes at once (or stacks with itself, thereby heaping penalties onto the same target). Either way, TWF seems, to me, the most geared at Control, with Defence a close second.

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Define what you mean by Control? If you mean something akin to "battlefield control" then I have no idea why wielding a two-handed weapon should suddenly make you a controller.
    My reasoning for two handed fighting having the highest control is because two handed weapons are the only weapons in the game with reach. You won't find a single handed weapon with reach. This is actually a part of the imbalance, currently you have a two handed weapon with reach that does the same or more damage than two weapon fighting, with less investment, and maintaining the higher control.

    Yes, there are two handed weapons without reach, but they are less efficient to use. Though I suppose a distinction could be drawn between a two handed reach weapon and a two handed non-reach weapon as separate fighting styles, but then what do you set as a two handed non-reach weapon's benefits?
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    My reasoning for two handed fighting having the highest control is because two handed weapons are the only weapons in the game with reach. You won't find a single handed weapon with reach. This is actually a part of the imbalance, currently you have a two handed weapon with reach that does the same or more damage than two weapon fighting, with less investment, and maintaining the higher control.
    One-handed weapons don't have reach, but you ever heard of nets or bolas? And the other hand for a two-weapon fighter has their actual melee weapon, and they'd have quick draw to get out another melee weapon or another control weapon.

    And you can do melee control with one-handed weapons, using a flail or sickle.
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonest; 2011-05-20 at 02:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    My reasoning for two handed fighting having the highest control is because two handed weapons are the only weapons in the game with reach. You won't find a single handed weapon with reach.
    I would argue that Control means control of the actual battlefield, not simply twice the radius you'd normally affect. In that regard, I'd actually defend that a higher mobility would allow the warrior in question to have more control of the battlefield. If he doesn't cast any spells, his only hope of being able to influence the battlefield on time to make a difference is if he can actually get to where he needs to be fast enough.
    Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2011-05-20 at 02:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    One-handed weapons don't have reach, but you ever heard of nets or bolas? And the other hand for a two-weapon fighter has their actual melee weapon, and they'd have quick draw to get out another melee weapon or another control weapon.
    But then they still lack reach, which is the primary form of control for a melee.

    And you can do melee control with one-handed weapons, using a flail or sickle.
    By that you mean you can trip with those weapons. You are seriously underestimating the reach advantage of two handers.


    edit:
    I would argue that Control means control of the actual battlefield, not simply twice the radius you'd normally affect. In that regard, I'd actually defend that a higher mobility would allow the warrior in question to have more control of the battlefield. If he doesn't cast any spells, his only hope of being able to influence the battlefield on time to make a difference is if he can actually get to where he needs to be fast enough.
    Maybe, but how far they can move is going to come from class features and feats that aren't specific to the weapon style feats. When comparing a TWFer and a THFer with the same investments other than their weapon styles, the THFer will have the reach advantage over the TWFer, and that's the point I'm trying to make.


    The net/bola argument is a bit more in favor of the TWFer being more controlling, but while that is thematic, it requires a specific weapon, and isn't particularly effective regardless, except to say the TWFer has more attacks he can blow on throwing nets all over the battlefield (which is actually pretty funny to picture, a guy quick draw throwing 4 nets at 4 enemies, and then attacking the enemy in front of him with his spear or whatever). On the other hand, the THFer has a variety of reach weapons to choose from (though has to fall back on a second weapon in close range unless they have a spiked chain)
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-05-20 at 02:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Here are my thoughts on how the system needs to be reworked:


    1.Parrying
    The ability to sacrifice your attack to get a chance to negate the enemy's attack (probably based on opposedattack rolls).
    Sheilds now become a source of parry, with a strong bonus to it, instead of an AC boost.
    two weapon fighter's can use their weapons to parry, hence allowing them flexibilty in their attack style, but obviously aren't as good at it as using a sheild.
    one handers get a bonus to parrying, and may be able to riposte
    Two handed weapons get a bonus for countering a parry, light weapon's a penalty
    specific weapons may have extra bonuses or penalties for parrying.

    This makes a sheild a strong defense, and two handed weapons are better at countering a sheild user or a one-hander trying to parry.

    2. speed
    Different weapons and styles have different speeds. High speed allows for more attacks. A two handed weapon will have a low speed, while a dagger will have a high speed. two weapon fighting takes a slight speed penalty on each hand, but has a greater speed overall. A one-handed weapon has the greatest individual speed, allowing them to strike fast and deal a lot of damage, and have enough attacks to use some to parry effectively. Precision based fighters would want more speed, which would make them tend towards one handed to two weapons, which matches the stereotpyes. A monk's flurry can be changes to a speed increase on fists, which would allow them to use their increased speed to move around and still get most of their attacks, since any given movement now takes less time and they have a high speed to utilize.

    3. alter the full round system
    a full round lets you take full advantage of your speed, but high enough speeds can allow multiple attacks on a move. Also make the percent of your speed you move impact how many attacks you can get.
    This would allow a two weapon fighter to dart in, and strike several times.

    4. Charging
    A charge allows 1 attack, and only 1 attack, with all weapons. 2 handers can use this to deleiver a powerful blow, 2 handers can charge in and strike twice, other styles may prefer to move in and get an attack sequence if possible.

    5.auto-finesse
    certain styles, namely 2 weapon and one handed, automatically allow dex to accuracy.This makes combat reflexes more useful to those styles.

    6. dex limit on armour applies to everything
    wearing heavy armour limits dex, making it unsuitable for combining with one or two handed styles. shield and two handed weapons don't need the dex as much, and the other styles can still use strength for accuracy if they want, but the armour limiting accuracy creates a more natural limit on what styles will wear.

    7. more style-specific feats
    These outline basic mechanics, but all styles should have a wide selections of feats to improve themselves. Sheild bash could allow a sheild user to attack with their sheild instead of parrying, aa riposte may allow a one hander to attack at a penalty off a successful parry, etc. Focus less on numerical bonuses and more on new options. Some may be useable with multiple styles to varuous degrees of effectiveness. Be sure to include a selection for unarmed. For instance, being able to parry with fists, and then able to do counters on successful parries.

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Your Two-weapon fighting style and feats are nice (but still nothing new here, most of it is just a fix you can find on almost all D&D boards), im curious ont what you have in mind for other styles and what you will do with the High, Medium and Low Offense/Defense/Control...

    I also think that this would be better :

    {table]Style | Offense | Defense | Control
    Two-Weapon Fighting | Medium | Low | High
    Two Handed Fighting | High | Low | Medium
    Sword and Board | Low | High | Medium
    Einhander | Medium | Medium | Medium
    [/table]

    But I have see your argument about reach and that's your work here so do what you want. Im also one of those who think that Two-handed Fighting style is High Offense (Power Attack, Cleave...), Two-weapon fighting is High Control (Parry, Riposte...) and Sword and Board High Defense (Shield Defense, Shield Wall...)

    Waiting for more to give input. But its a interesting mini-project

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    pathfinder has a feat called comabt patrol
    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat...-patrol-combat

    If we added something similar we could boost anyone's control signifcantly without needing reach.

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    I think our first step here should be to define what we expect out of each style, and what different words should mean.

    THF : To me, the basic version of this, to me, means power. This is the barbarian with the greataxe and the foaming mouth.
    Reach : Distinct from THF, despite being limited to it (outside of spinning swords and kusari-gamas). This is where battlefield control comes in.
    TWF : This is another one that, to me, represents heavy offense. You're giving up the option to use a shield, generally, for more chances to cut the other guy.
    Sword and board : Defense. Turtling doesn't work in D&D, so this needs to touch a little bit on control. The shield charge/shield slam type feats are good for this.
    Einhander : This one speaks to me of mobility and precision, mostly mixing the ability to do damage with quick dodges. So offense/defense, with control limited to possibly disarm-style techniques.

    As to the TWF treated as a proficiency : I disagree. Everyone should be able to pick up a weapon and use it, sure, but I think that the feats chosen should define a character's style. If you're going to give TWF as a proficiency thing, then power attack should be given as well, and now we're redefining too much. Make TWF not totally pointless without a feat, perhaps : Say a -2 or -4 to use a couple light weapons, and then have the feat eliminate the penalty entirely as well as opening iteratives with your off-hand.

    Of all these different styles, I think Einhander is the only one that most lacks feats. Something that would give them the option to fight defensively at a smaller penalty would be a good start, for me - or give the option to fight in full defensive, and retain one attack per round at double the normal penalty. So, say, something like :

    Einhander [General]
    Prerequisites : None
    Benefit : The penalty for fighting defensively is reduced to -2. Additionally, when taking the Total Defense action, you may still make a single attack, though you are still prevented from taking attacks of opportunity. You take a -4 penalty to this attack. You may use the Combat Expertise feat in combination with Total Defense.

    When your base attack reaches +6 or higher, you no longer take a penalty for fighting defensively, and the penalty for total defense lessens to -2. If you choose to take the Total Defense option you may still only make a single attack during your turn, and may not take any attacks of opportunity.

    Normal : Fighting defensively is a -4 penalty, and Total Defense doesn't allow you to attack at all.

    Special : A Fighter may take this as one of his bonus feats.
    Last edited by Quietus; 2011-05-20 at 03:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    Of all these different styles, I think Einhander is the only one that most lacks feats. Something that would give them the option to fight defensively at a smaller penalty would be a good start, for me - or give the option to fight in full defensive, and retain one attack per round at double the normal penalty. So, say, something like :

    Einhander [General]
    Prerequisites : None
    Benefit : The penalty for fighting defensively is reduced to -2. Additionally, when taking the Total Defense action, you may still make a single attack, though you are still prevented from taking attacks of opportunity. You take a -4 penalty to this attack. You may use the Combat Expertise feat in combination with Total Defense.

    When your base attack reaches +6 or higher, you no longer take a penalty for fighting defensively, and the penalty for total defense lessens to -2. You may still only make a single attack during your turn, and may not take any attacks of opportunity, if you choose to take the Total Defense option.

    Normal : Fighting defensively is a -4 penalty, and Total Defense doesn't allow you to attack at all.

    Special : A Fighter may take this as one of his bonus feats.
    Einahnder definitely needs more support. I'm not sure if that is the way to do it. At low levels, you are taking a -2 accuracey penalty to get +2 dodge, which is no better than a sheild, and you are sacrificing accuracy and a feat. By the time that penalty is reduced, the sheild user has a magic sheild and hence more AC, the possbility to sheild bashing , and to keep up with their AC you have to use total defense, which puts you back at the -2 and locks out all of your extra attacks. So you end up with less offense and defense than a sheild user, and no control to speak of.
    So, what is the benefit?

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystify View Post
    Einahnder definitely needs more support. I'm not sure if that is the way to do it. At low levels, you are taking a -2 accuracey penalty to get +2 dodge, which is no better than a sheild, and you are sacrificing accuracy and a feat. By the time that penalty is reduced, the sheild user has a magic sheild and hence more AC, the possbility to sheild bashing , and to keep up with their AC you have to use total defense, which puts you back at the -2 and locks out all of your extra attacks. So you end up with less offense and defense than a sheild user, and no control to speak of.
    So, what is the benefit?
    The benefit is getting the discussion started, of course.

    No, you're totally right in that it's a cost to do something poorly. It's attractive at first glance, but when looking at how it fits into the system as a whole, it fails. How would you recommend putting forward an Einhander style?
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    I think one of the big issues with the fighting styles is that they do a bunch of different things that are really difficult to balance against each other. I'd take THF as the baseline, and modify the other styles to fall in line with it. The main benefits of THF are:

    -Add half Str mod to damage.
    -Use larger weapons, generally getting in the vicinity of 2d6 base damage without special effects.
    -Half again normal returns on Power Attack.

    So, to balance them, fit similar capabilities.

    TWF:
    -Use two light weapons, or a one-handed and light with a -1 attack penalty, or two one-handed with a -2 attack penalty. Make a single attack roll, adding the damage dice (only) together. Paired weapons and double weapons can be enchanted as a single weapon. Generally will be in the range of 2d6 damage, potentially going higher with attack roll penalties.
    -Add half your Str mod to damage from your off-hand weapon.
    -Since your paired weapons let you strike faster, your attack roll penalty for iterative attacks is only -3, rather than -5.

    Single Weapon:
    -Use a single, one-handed weapon, typically around 1d8 base damage. Thanks to your more balanced stance, you get a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls.
    -Since you can place strikes more precisely, add half your Dex mod to damage.
    -Your balanced stance lets you reduce the attack roll penalties you take from Power Attack or Combat Expertise by 1 (to a minimum -1 penalty when using such a feat). For each full four points of penalty you take, you further reduce the penalty by 1. This does not increase the maximum penalty you can take; it merely reduces the actual impact to your attack roll.

    Weapon and Shield:
    -Use a single, one-handed weapon, typically around 1d8 base damage, and a shield, typically providing +2 AC.
    -Your shield also lets you reduce the damage of physical attacks by half your Con mod, as if from DR/-, although this stacks with other DR.
    -Your shield makes it easy to parry enemy attacks. Double the bonus from Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, and Total Defending.
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    THF as "Control" makes quite a lot sense, that was kind of the point, use of two hands for better control of longer weapon, heavier weapon, more precision and ability to interact with stuff.

    Trip with long wood, hook with guisarme or halberd, disarm with sword bind...

    So it seems interesting, going to see what you will make out of it.
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    The benefit is getting the discussion started, of course.

    No, you're totally right in that it's a cost to do something poorly. It's attractive at first glance, but when looking at how it fits into the system as a whole, it fails. How would you recommend putting forward an Einhander style?
    how about this as an initial set of feats:
    Einhander:
    You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls whenver you are weilding a weapon in one hand with nothing in the offhand. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 BaB you have. You may also apply the effects of weapon finesse to this weapon. This feat counts as weapon finesse for meeting prerequisites, but you can only gain their benefits when using a weapon one-handed.

    Einhander speed:
    Pre-reqs: Einhander, Bab x
    You may make an additional attack once per round with a weapon gaining the bonus from Einhander

    Einhander feint:
    pre-reqs: Einhander
    When using a weapon that gains the bonus from Einhander, you may feint as an attack option as part of a full round.

    Einhander parry:
    pre-reqs: Einhander
    When using a weapon subject to Einhander, you may sacrifice one attack (either taking no attack on a standard attack option, or sacrificing an attack from a full round). Until the start of your next turn, you may elect to parry an enemies attack. Make an opposed attack roll using the BaB of the attack you sacrificed. If you win, you negate the enemy's attack.

    Einhander riposte:
    pre-reqs: Einhander parry
    if you make a successful Einhander parry, you may make a free attack against the target of the parry, using the BaB of the attack you sacrificed.

    Some of these probably need some more prerequisites, and you could combine some of them, but you get the idea.
    Last edited by Mystify; 2011-05-20 at 03:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Kusarigama (DMG p145) is a Light melee weapon with reach.

    ... Just saying. <_<;;

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Kusarigama (DMG p145) is a Light melee weapon with reach.

    ... Just saying. <_<;;
    Its a spiked chain as a light weapon. Sweet!

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    It'll probably be tomorrow before I get a chance to update the original posts.

    THF : To me, the basic version of this, to me, means power. This is the barbarian with the greataxe and the foaming mouth.
    Reach : Distinct from THF, despite being limited to it (outside of spinning swords and kusari-gamas). This is where battlefield control comes in.
    Okay, but if we're going to make reach distinct from two handed fighting, then we need to make sure that the bonus damage from two handed non-reach weapons can't spill over. Things like bonus power attack damage and the like MUST specify non-reach weapons.

    And in that case, what makes the difference between non-reach TWFing and THFing, conceptually? Are we aiming for similar damage with similar investment against average opponents, with which is more effective varying by levels of DR? Or something else?

    As to the TWF treated as a proficiency : I disagree. Everyone should be able to pick up a weapon and use it, sure, but I think that the feats chosen should define a character's style. If you're going to give TWF as a proficiency thing, then power attack should be given as well, and now we're redefining too much. Make TWF not totally pointless without a feat, perhaps : Say a -2 or -4 to use a couple light weapons, and then have the feat eliminate the penalty entirely as well as opening iteratives with your off-hand.
    The thing is, you're identifying Power Attack as necessary for two handed fighting. It is not. It is so good you want it, yes. But it should be a viable option for all fighting styles. TWFing as a proficiency is to emulate the fact that every other fighting style can be done at its core without any feat support.

    You can pick up a sword and shield, and with no feats be able to attack without penalty, and have a bonus to defense.

    You can pick up a two hander, and with no feats be able to attack without penalty, and deal strx1.5 damage.

    But you pick up two one handers, and suddenly without feats you can't attack without insurmountable penalties. Even with the feat, you still have a small penalty, but the smaller penalty balances out that you're getting a lot of damage counted twice. What I'm doing here is removing that feat tax, so that two weapon fighting is on an even playing field with the other styles. The alternative would be giving massive penalties for other styles that get overcome with an entry feat, but I think we would all agree that is convoluted and stupid.


    On the other hand, I would like to strip some of the two handers' innate advantages away. Primarily I'd like to have Power Attack only give the two to 1 ratio to non-reach two handers, and offhand weapons to be able to use power attack. Giving those two styles a easy source of more damage.

    That said, something else may also be in order, remember, THFing has a -0- feat investment currently that is specific to its style. No, power attack and leap attack are not THFing specific. Something like reducing THFing's str contribution back to the normal 1, but introducing a feat that lets you double the strength bonus to damage while wielding a non-reach two handed weapon (this would be the equivalent of having TWFing proficiency, vs taking the feat ITWF to reduce the hit penalty and gain extra attacks.




    Short comments on the rest: I like the einhander feats, but feel it's too many feats. The einhander feat already in existence which is pretty weak is basically parry + feint, so you could probably roll those two into one even with the effects each being increased. Similarly, Speed could probably be pushed into normal Einhander, a extra attack and a bonus to hit is good, and may be worth not just picking up a second weapon or a two hander. Either one alone, probably not so much.

    I don't think giving more attacks per rounds for faster weapons is a particularly good solution, as it adds an extra layer of complexity, and deviates from the norm too much. That said I don't mind the idea of giving up extra attacks for defense so much, though I'd go a slightly different route. Something like trade 1 attack for 2-3 points of AC, this would simply replace the fighting defensively/full defense mechanic. This, combined with TWFing as a proficiency means a sword and boarder can just give up all of the attacks with his shield to pump up his AC (possibly with some benefit for having a shield), or a TWFer can use his offhand attacks for parrying while attacking with the main hand. The downside is I'm not sure how this would interact with standard actions (nor how yours would work), and that would be the biggest barrier for it.



    I'll comment more later, I'm about to leave for dinner, then have a game after that, I'm sure you guys will pick apart my statement and I'll have more to digest on top of what I already have missed responding to.
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    It don't want toput the speed into the base feat. A two weapon fighter takes a feat and gets a penalty for another attack. Throught the system, extra attacks tend to cost a feat and a -2 penalty. An extra attack by itself with no penalty is easily enough for an entire feat.

    The base feat is also giving a significant accuracy boost, and a combination of weapon finesse and graceful edge, which less limits.

    Those 2 I am comfortable with being seperate. The parry and riposte could be combined into 1 feat. Feinting as an attack option is actually pretty powerful. normally itsa full round with a feat to reduce it to a move. As an attack option you can feint multiple times within the same full round, which allows you to do a few more attacks with sneak attack damage if you can't pull off a more reliable source that round. It also doesn't feel like it would fit with parry/riposte. It could fit with speed, but I'm not sure if that is balanced.


    I do think a lot of the current disparity in power is becuae a 2 handed fighter can be very powerful, and is just as fast as anything else. It seems kinda silly that a barbarian can swing an axe around just as fast as a rouge can stab with a dagger. If the axe was slower, or other weapons faster, then it could hit like a ton of bricks and not be the only option for damage.

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Hmm...martial proficiency with two weapons? Isn't that what TWF already does, removing the penalties on two weapons? Otherwise, you'd need to revive Ambidexterity and place it as a free bonus feat (for Rangers, Rogues and classes that would benefit from it). I've figured that TWF works best with the TWF feat collapsing TWF, Dual Strike and Double Hit (the feats that deal with making attacks with two weapons as part of a standard action melee attack and the ones that allow striking with two weapons as part of any attack of opportunity, respectively) through the idea of allowing the use of both weapons in any melee attack (including the one from Imp. Trip, for example). Maybe add a few benefits alongside it; maybe a +2 bonus on disarm and trip attempts when wielding two weapons. This makes the first feat extremely diverse, and the second extremely focused in terms of action. However, it keeps it on the realm of feats, since it makes TWF an option rather than something you'll probably fall upon.

    I would allow some changes, though. Remember how Combat Expertise limits your bonus to AC by restricting how much Power Attack works? And ever considered that pretty much all games that use Power Attack restrict the use to a +5 bonus to damage? Well, nerf Power Attack if you're making all weapon styles based off two feats, or boost stuff like Combat Expertise, TWF and S&B if you wish to keep it the same. The best way to see this is Combat Expertise versus Power Attack; whatever change you make to Combat Expertise should apply to Power Attack, since they're extremely similar feats (replace one thing for another). I'd recommend nixing the Int requirement, since you don't need to be too smart to parry with your weapon (which is basically what Combat Expertise does). I'd personally equate CE with PA, and make the benefit of Combat Expertise apply to the ability to fight defensively instead.

    S&B would be the hardest, though. You get Imp. Shield Bash and Agile Shield Fighting to produce something, but that's basically a poor man's TWF. High Def and Medium Control leads to use your shield as a stopper, something along the lines of increasing the Tumble check required to bypass moving through your threatened space based on your shield, or automatically providing aid another bonuses to any ally adjacent to you, or even daze any opponent whenever you make a shield bash as an AoO.

    One-hander is less difficult to pull off, because it's less of an actual combat style than a transitory combat style. If you had, say, Power Attack and TWF (the basics for THF and TWF), you could use a single one-handed weapon to shift from one style to another, wielding said weapon in two hands or taking another and fighting appropriately. Fighting with one weapon and nothing in the other hand shouldn't be the norm. However, if you really want a proper one-hander, you'll have to make it precision-based; something that adds bonuses to attack and damage whenever you're wielding the weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, perhaps even a defensive bonus because you're adopting a sideways stance which should increase dodging. However, it's much better if you make it transitory, so that you can fight well in one-hand but shift to a more appropriate combat style if necessary.
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post

    One-hander is less difficult to pull off, because it's less of an actual combat style than a transitory combat style. If you had, say, Power Attack and TWF (the basics for THF and TWF), you could use a single one-handed weapon to shift from one style to another, wielding said weapon in two hands or taking another and fighting appropriately. Fighting with one weapon and nothing in the other hand shouldn't be the norm. However, if you really want a proper one-hander, you'll have to make it precision-based; something that adds bonuses to attack and damage whenever you're wielding the weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, perhaps even a defensive bonus because you're adopting a sideways stance which should increase dodging. However, it's much better if you make it transitory, so that you can fight well in one-hand but shift to a more appropriate combat style if necessary.
    I don't see it as a transitory style at all. If you have one weapon in hand, it doesn't take an action to grip it in two hands and swing. You want two weapons, you let go and draw your other weapon. You don't stop in the middle of the transition to attack. Its also a commonly used style, with fencing being the most prominent example. Its a style based on speed. Granted it isn't really mixed with knights in armour since it is designed for unarmored foes, where speed is more important than power, but that doesn't mean it should be exiled to a handful of pathetic feats.

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    A problem of TWF is that take a lot of time because you have a lot of rolls at different to-hit, this feat allow a high level TWFighter a more powerful and simple full-attack.

    Supreme Two Weapon Fighting
    Prerequisite: BAB +12, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend
    Benefit: When fighting with two weapon your iterative attacks gain full BAB bonus to-hit.

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    yuk Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by mykelyk View Post
    A problem of TWF is that take a lot of time because you have a lot of rolls at different to-hit, this feat allow a high level TWFighter a more powerful and simple full-attack.

    Supreme Two Weapon Fighting
    Prerequisite: BAB +12, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend
    Benefit: When fighting with two weapon your iterative attacks gain full BAB bonus to-hit.
    I'd rather have the extra attack. Its only dropping it by one roll, and the first 2 iterations are very likely to hit anyways. The third is iffy, but its still worth having.

    Comparison:
    attack bonus 45, AC 35

    95/95/90/90/65/65/40=5.4

    to

    95/95/95/95/75/50=5.05

    Greater two weapon fighting is commonly considered weak, and you are presenting a weaker version with more prerequisites just to save 1 attack, and its the same attack bonus as the third attack, so you aren't even saving any computation.

    Edit: I may have misinterpreted that you were meaning it as a replacement for greater.
    Last edited by Mystify; 2011-05-20 at 08:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by mykelyk View Post
    A problem of TWF is that take a lot of time because you have a lot of rolls at different to-hit, this feat allow a high level TWFighter a more powerful and simple full-attack.

    Supreme Two Weapon Fighting
    Prerequisite: BAB +12, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend
    Benefit: When fighting with two weapon your iterative attacks gain full BAB bonus to-hit.
    Full BAB? So an attack sequence might run +12/+12/+12 main-hand, +12/+12 off-hand?
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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    Full BAB? So an attack sequence might run +12/+12/+12 main-hand, +12/+12 off-hand?
    +12/+12/+12 main-hand, +12/+12/+12 off-hand.

    I'm using the feats of this thread as prerequisites.

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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    So this kind of died off cause I died for a few days. Things have been hectic around here. But now I'm back, and I updated the first post, so I'm going to comment on that first:

    1) I think I decided on a formulaic approach to these styles. I'm aiming for 3 feats for each style, the first two feats boost the primary purpose, and the third feat boosts the secondary purpose. That secondary purpose is optional, but the feat should be attractive enough that most people focusing in the style will want to pick it up to flesh out their style.

    2) No shield or einhander style yet. Right now I'm actually thinking they should be based on the same starting point, with one feat in common that then branches out to two other possibilities.

    Basically feat one is "If you wield a one handed weapon in one hand". Feat two is two different feats, where one gives benefits for wielding a shield, and one gives benefits for going without. The shield would obviously lean more towards defense, with the open hand leaning more towards damage. But I may change my mind on that and just make them wholly distinct as originally planned.

    3) The THF and Reach styles were broken up, as I mentioned I might do when people complained about THFing being focused on control. THF still has a focus on damage, and Reach is more about the controlling aspect of it.

    Given this break, I did make the change that THFing no longer has its inherent benefits of stronger power attack and higher strength to damage. I crunched out the math, and even without those bonuses, and TWFing coming for free, TWFing and THFing were almost dead even in damage done pre-feats (within .1 damage per round), and with the feats THFing pulled ahead by a lot.

    4) Because of that, I did go back and make Imp TWFing also grant full str damage for offhand attacks. This made it so TWFing could keep up with THFing when both took their improved version of the feat. I haven't done the math all the way to 20, but the scaling seems comparable with things as they are now. I'll probably crunch more numbers tomorrow to check.

    5) The reach style is missing its 3rd feat, because I'm not sure what the secondary focus should be. I'm currently leaning towards defensive, but am not sure what would be good enough to warrant it. Alternatively, if I ditch the 100% formulaic approach, I am considering something like a bonus movement offturn as an immediate action, to help with the controlling aspect further.



    Anyway now to comment on stuff posted:

    But I have see your argument about reach and that's your work here so do what you want. Im also one of those who think that Two-handed Fighting style is High Offense (Power Attack, Cleave...), Two-weapon fighting is High Control (Parry, Riposte...) and Sword and Board High Defense (Shield Defense, Shield Wall...)
    I missed this before so I'm going to comment on it now. Parry and Riposte is something that can be done regardless of weapon type, but if anything would be iconic to einhander not TWFing. Also, those abilities are more defensive in nature than controlling. When I talk about control I am referring to being able to meaningfully restrict the enemy. Denying them options, restricting their movement. Forcing them to be where I want to be.

    It don't want toput the speed into the base feat. A two weapon fighter takes a feat and gets a penalty for another attack. Throught the system, extra attacks tend to cost a feat and a -2 penalty. An extra attack by itself with no penalty is easily enough for an entire feat.
    Maybe you're right, but I'm more worried about how an Einhander style will compare round by round with THFing or TWFing. I won't mind if it's down like 10-20%, since those are the high damage styles where Einhander is not, but it should be in the vicinity. I'll look at it closer when crunching numbers for Einhander.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar
    Hmm...martial proficiency with two weapons? Isn't that what TWF already does, removing the penalties on two weapons?
    Basically, yes. So it's not really a major change. The big thing is now being able to use TWFing is a proficiency rather than a bonus feat. So a Fighter or Ranger can automatically use two weapons fairly proficiently without having to sink a feat into it. By sinking a feat into it they get better, just like with any other style.

    I've figured that TWF works best with the TWF feat collapsing TWF, Dual Strike and Double Hit (the feats that deal with making attacks with two weapons as part of a standard action melee attack and the ones that allow striking with two weapons as part of any attack of opportunity, respectively) through the idea of allowing the use of both weapons in any melee attack (including the one from Imp. Trip, for example).
    That's basically what this does. You get the TWFing chain as a proficiency, then Dual Strike/Double Hit/Two Weapon Pounce/whatever else for extra non-BAB based attacks, wrapped in as another feat, with a scaling reduction in penalties, so by level 20 you can use two one handers without penalty.

    It seems like a lot, but when you line up a character with the feats next to a character with the THFing feats, it should come out pretty similar.

    When you start adding in class features it gets a bit murkier. The THFer will scale better with weapon damage and strength, the TWFer will scale better with bonus damage. But then, THF will fare better when DR is brought into play... overall it should still stay about even between the two.

    A problem of TWF is that take a lot of time because you have a lot of rolls at different to-hit, this feat allow a high level TWFighter a more powerful and simple full-attack.

    Supreme Two Weapon Fighting
    Prerequisite: BAB +12, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend
    Benefit: When fighting with two weapon your iterative attacks gain full BAB bonus to-hit.
    TWFing has no more different to-hits than anyone else, they just get twice as many rolls at each to-hit. Your solution is pretty overpowered. If you were determined to go the route of all attacks use the same to-hit, you should at least follow the example of manyshot and make a penalty to hit that increases with the number of attacks you make. Honestly though, I don't care for it.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    Default Re: Balancing The Weapon Styles [D&D3.5]

    The most effective two-handed reach weapon is the spiked chain, due to it's ability to attack adjacent foes and at 10 ft. Spiked chain builds are usually focused on control because of this, and for effective battlefield control good movement speed is needed. This restricts most SCF's (spiked chain fighters) to light armor. Because weapon finnese works with spiked chain, and a good DEX is needed to boost AC with light armor, DEX is emphased over STR. This creates a mobile controller build that hits often, possibly using whirlwind attack for more attacks with reach, and does little damage, but gets multiple attacks of opportunity per round, can set up flanks easily, and use feats like improved trip to keep powerful foes ot of commission.

    The other type of two-handed weapon style is the greatsword fighter. The idea behind the greatsword fighter is that he hits often and does large amounts of damage (especially with the X2 power attack bonus) but lacks any special tricks. Most greatsword fighters use heavy armor to make up for otherwise low AC due to lack of DEX or a shield. This makes them poor controllers as they can't move quickly.

    Greatsword Fighter
    Pros: Great damage per round
    Less expensive, because only one item must be enchanted, as opposed to a sword and board or TWF.
    Simple to make and play
    Cons: low speed due to heavy armor
    Has no special tricks, is only a simple melee combatant. (I attack. I attack again. And again)

    Spiked Chain Fighter
    Pros: Can make many attacks per round with whirlwind attack due to reach
    Gets many attacks of opportunity due to reach
    Can use feats such as improved trip at 10 ft. distance to keep targets out of action. Getting up from being prone provokes.
    Has good move speed and can control battlefield with reach.
    Cons: Does not deal much damage with each successful hit, because SCFs are usually DEX focussed.
    Is designed for crowd control, not individual powerfull melee combatants who it fairs poorly against due to low damage per hit.
    Requires numerous feats for optimal play, and can be difficult to play.

    These comparisons should show that there need to be separate fighting styles for reach based and damage-per-round based two handed weapon fighters. Also, I believe that power attack should still have bonus damage for two-handed weapons, as without it greatsword fighters tend to be boring and less effective.
    Last edited by IronWilliam; 2011-05-26 at 02:52 PM.
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