Druid help; Wild Shaping into Creatures with more HD?

[Jarmen4u]

I have a two-part question here, hopefully you guys can help me out with at least one of them.

1. If I have more HD than a creature I'm turning into, and I have enough to (theoretically) become the next size in that creatures progression (like having 6 HD and turning into a porpoise; normally a 6 HD porpoise would be Large instead of Medium), would I become a large porpoise, or stay medium?

2. Is there a way to artificially boost HD for the purpose of turning into a creature that I don't currently qualify for simply due to lack of HD? For example, being a 15th level character that can turn into Gargantuan Animals but can't become a Roc until I have 18 HD, is there a way to "spoof" the extra 3 HD to become a Roc?

Thanks in advance for the help, and I apologize if the questions are a bit unclear.

[Ludovico47]

1. You can wild shape into anything you meet the requirements for, so if you can turn into a large animal with 6HD, you can turn into a large porpoise.

2. RAW, anything that raises your HD would accomplish that. Bard'a inspire greatness ability comes to mind, but that's only 2HD bonus. I'm sure there are others, and I'm sure you'll be inundated with suggestions shortly, but basically, anything that buffs HD would work (albeit only for the duration of the effect).

[ace rooster]

1. You can wild shape into anything you meet the requirements for, so if you can turn into a large animal with 6HD, you can turn into a large porpoise.

You do have to be familiar with them though, so this is DM dependent. High HD animals might be very rare so this may get shot down.

2. RAW, anything that raises your HD would accomplish that. Bard'a inspire greatness ability comes to mind, but that's only 2HD bonus. I'm sure there are others, and I'm sure you'll be inundated with suggestions shortly, but basically, anything that buffs HD would work (albeit only for the duration of the effect).

Wild shape explicitly cues off druid level. Boosting HD doesn't automatically boost it (though inspire greatness is worth remembering for the polymorph cap).

[eggynack]

1. If I have more HD than a creature I'm turning into, and I have enough to (theoretically) become the next size in that creatures progression (like having 6 HD and turning into a porpoise; normally a 6 HD porpoise would be Large instead of Medium), would I become a large porpoise, or stay medium?

It's really not clear whether a druid has access to the advancement section of monster entries. Keep in mind, however, that allowing such access creates some results that are wonky as hell. For example, humanoids tend to advance by character class, and it's pretty easy to get humanoid wild shape (fangshields substitution levels do it easy), so if you're allowing this access then you should logically be allowed to become, say, a 15th level human factotum or something. You're still kinda limited by what wild shape grants, but it's weird as hell.

2. Is there a way to artificially boost HD for the purpose of turning into a creature that I don't currently qualify for simply due to lack of HD? For example, being a 15th level character that can turn into Gargantuan Animals but can't become a Roc until I have 18 HD, is there a way to "spoof" the extra 3 HD to become a Roc?

As was noted, wild shape doesn't give a crap about your base HD. There are items that boost effective level for the purposes of wild shape. Best is the skin of kaletor (Dragon Magazine #324, 75), which gives a +4 to effective wild shape level with some relatively minor downsides for 12,000 GP. Also solid are the trappings of the beast, a set of three items from complete champion (of whom the ring and mantle are already good), which boost wild shape level by one, and the wild shape amulet (MaF, 167), which gives a +4 for 40,000 GP.

[MisterKaws]

Wildshape is, as of the final errata, based off Alternate Form, and if I recall correctly, Alternate Form explicitly mentions that you turn into a **common** individual of that species, so no advancement. Even if you don't use the errata and base it off Polymorph, it has the same rules for that aspect: you cannot transform into an advanced individual.

Now, about the HD thing... Just pick Mulhorandi Divine Minion and do Master of Many forms at your second class level. Ditch Druid completely.

You can also do a Mulhorandi Divine Minion Dvati(with enough templates to have LA+4, but none of them can have a CR increase) Fighter 1/Master of Many Forms 5/ Windrider 10(mount: yourself), and have level 20 Druid Wildshaping with 24 HD, which lets you get two epic Wildshaping feats.

[RedMage125]

I have a two-part question here, hopefully you guys can help me out with at least one of them.

1. If I have more HD than a creature I'm turning into, and I have enough to (theoretically) become the next size in that creatures progression (like having 6 HD and turning into a porpoise; normally a 6 HD porpoise would be Large instead of Medium), would I become a large porpoise, or stay medium?

The RAW are silent on this matter specifically. But it seems strongly supported based on what IS written.

It's also not game-breaking, so as a DM, I would allow it.

[Jarmen4u]

Is there by chance something like Practiced Spellcaster for druid wild shape levels? So, if I'm a Druid 6/X 4, I could take the feat and be considered Druid 7+ for wild shaping? If so, would this work if the second class was MoMF?

[Iku Rex]

This is what the official 3.5 FAQ says for polymorph:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/er/20070731a

Can you become advanced versions of creatures with
polymorph* (PH 263), or just the most basic as presented in
the MM?
The rules don’t explicitly prevent this, but for speed of play
(and reasons of sanity) it’s entirely reasonable for a DM to
disallow any forms other than those detailed in the MM (or
other allowed volumes of monsters). If the DM chooses to
allow advanced creatures, the player must supply full statistics
for the advanced version before play begins. Remember that
the Hit Die limit for the various polymorph spells still applies
(a 7th-level wizard can’t use polymorph to assume the form of
a 10-HD advanced sahuagin).
*The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer
specifically to spells that rely on the polymorph or alter self
spell to adjudicate their effect (including alter self, polymorph,
polymorph any object, and shapechange), psionic powers based
on the metamorphosis power (including metamorphosis and
greater metamorphosis), and any other effect based on either of
these lists.

I think the relevant rules are the same for wild shape.

(IMO it makes sense to allow this. I don't see any major balance issues.)

[eggynack]

(IMO it makes sense to allow this. I don't see any major balance issues.)

That advancement includes not only standard size buffing, but also full on class advancement, seems like a very large potential balance issue. Even though you don't likely get the spells, cause ability types are weird, the fact that you can become a 10th level human wizard strikes me as really wonky.

[Iku Rex]

That advancement includes not only standard size buffing, but also full on class advancement, ...

I am talking about standard monster HD advancement here. Not becoming a "10th level human wizard". And I'm pretty sure that's what Jarmen4u and the FAQ is talking about as well.

[eggynack]

I am talking about standard monster HD advancement here. Not becoming a "10th level human wizard". And I'm pretty sure that's what Jarmen4u and the FAQ is talking about as well.

The rules very much do not make that distinction. The FAQ doesn't either. It's really difficult to have a RAW interpretation that features large fleshrakers and not 10th level human wizards. If there a rule that were like, "You can totally access this kind of advancement, but not this kind of advancement, because the second kind of advancement is stupid," the solution to all these questions would be obvious. But there isn't a rule like that, and the only real question is whether you can access that advancement section of the stat-block.

[bekeleven]

Now, about the HD thing... Just pick Mulhorandi Divine Minion and do Master of Many forms at your second class level. Ditch Druid completely.

You can also do a Mulhorandi Divine Minion Dvati(with enough templates to have LA+4, but none of them can have a CR increase) Fighter 1/Master of Many Forms 5/ Windrider 10(mount: yourself), and have level 20 Druid Wildshaping with 24 HD, which lets you get two epic Wildshaping feats.

This continues to not work even a little.

[Iku Rex]

The rules very much do not make that distinction.

"Advancement: By character class" is easily distinguished from, for example, "Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large); 9-12 HD (Huge)". The description of "Advancement" and the Improving Monsters also distinguishes between "Class Levels" and "Increased Hit Dice". It's not that complicated. All rules require interpretation.

[eggynack]

"Advancement: By character class" is easily distinguished from, for example, "Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large); 9-12 HD (Huge)". The description of "Advancement" and the Improving Monsters also distinguishes between "Class Levels" and "Increased Hit Dice". It's not that complicated. All rules require interpretation.

What I'm saying is that wild shape doesn't make that distinction. It says you can become creatures. Do the creatures implied by the advancement line count or not? You're arguing that it's sometimes yes and sometimes no, based on your interpretation. Well, from what text do you draw that interpretation? That there's a distinction between these kinds of advancement is irrelevant if you can't find something in wild shape that would allow one advancement but not the other. Rules do sometimes (but not always) require interpretation. From what I can tell though, you're not currently interpreting, but rather allowing the ability to work for some things but not others because you like some game effects but not others.

[Iku Rex]

What I'm saying is that wild shape doesn't make that distinction. It says you can become creatures. Do the creatures implied by the advancement line count or not? You're arguing that it's sometimes yes and sometimes no, based on your interpretation. Well, from what text do you draw that interpretation? That there's a distinction between these kinds of advancement is irrelevant if you can't find something in wild shape that would allow one advancement but not the other. Rules do sometimes (but not always) require interpretation. From what I can tell though, you're not currently interpreting, but rather allowing the ability to work for some things but not others because you like some game effects but not others.

Interpretation does not have to depend solely on "text". We are not computers. Context matters. The purpose of the rule matters. The result of an interpretation matters. Designer intent matters.

There is plenty of room for an interpretation. For example, Alternate Form says that you retain "all other game statistics" "[e]xcept as described elsewhere" when you change form. Nowhere "elsewhere" does it say that you gain the class levels of the new form. Therefore, you always retain your own class levels and do not gain any class levels. (Polymorph, by way of alter self, actually spell out that your "class and level" remain the same.)

Or you could just say that a "Large Fleshraker" or a (generic Monster Manual) "Human" is a "form" for the purposes of "alternate form", while a "10th level Human wizard" simply isn't.

You are trying to make this much harder than it is.

[eggynack]

Interpretation does not have to depend solely on "text". We are not computers. Context matters. The purpose of the rule matters. The result of an interpretation matters. Designer intent matters.

You don't seem to have any context, designer intent , evidence of purpose, or a clear preference from the game itself for a particular result either from what I've seen.

There is plenty of room for an interpretation. For example, Alternate Form says that you retain "all other game statistics" "[e]xcept as described elsewhere" when you change form. Nowhere "elsewhere" does it say that you gain the class levels of the new form. Therefore, you always retain your own class levels and do not gain any class levels. (Polymorph, by way of alter self, actually spell out that your "class and level" remain the same.)

That you retain your base game statistic doesn't intrinsically mean that you cannot gain new ones, and, critically, you don't actually care about any game level statistic so much as you care about the absolutely accessible abilities of these forms that happen to have levels on them. Your class level can read whatever way it wants to. But this form has a bunch of Ex special attacks and qualities, and that's what we're after here.

Or you could just say that a "Large Fleshraker" or a (generic Monster Manual) "Human" is a "form" for the purposes of "alternate form", while a "10th level Human wizard" simply isn't.

Why? What makes one a form and the other not?

You are trying to make this much harder than it is.

Not really, no. I'm trying to follow the natural conclusion of a rule interpretation. You're fighting against a pretty simple extrapolation on little to no basis. Your primary justification is still just that you'd prefer this thing not to be the case. It's not all that meaningful a position, in my opinion.

[Iku Rex]

That you retain your base game statistic doesn't intrinsically mean that you cannot gain new ones, ...

The examples mentioned are HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. And I hope you will agree that you don't get any of those. The implication is that you gain nothing unless the rules say you do. Size, natural armor and physical ability scores, which change due to increased size, are all explicitly gained. "Class levels" are not gained.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable interpretation to me. (Remember, it doesn't have to be the only possible interpretation.)

and, critically, you don't actually care about any game level statistic so much as you care about the absolutely accessible abilities of these forms that happen to have levels on them. Your class level can read whatever way it wants to. But this form has a bunch of Ex special attacks and qualities, and that's what we're after here.

If you don't get the class levels, you don't get the class abilities. Seems reasonable to me.

Why? What makes one a form and the other not?

"Form" is not clearly defined in the rules and requires interpretation.

Game-mechanically, options that make the game more fun/interesting for the players without causing problems are generally a good thing.

You yourself have argued that allowing "forms" with class levels would be a "very large potential balance issue" and "really wonky", and I agree. An interpretation that avoids large game balance issues and isn't wonky is generally better than the alternative.

In-game, monsters with a larger size category than the typical creature due to Hit Dice advancement can often be described as a difference species. Those should be an option for wild shape. Even if they're the same species as the typical creature, I don't think it's thematically inappropriate for a character to change into a larger, yet average for that size, version of a creature. Take standard dragons for example. What is the "typical" dragon even supposed to be?

Changing into "forms" with learned class abilities on the other hand does not make sense to me, and is not a common fantasy trope. Even the word "form" implies that it is primarily a physical change. So does the list of what does and doesn't change when you change form.


(And how do you become "familiar with" a "form" with a character class, as per the wild shape rules? If you rule that "familiarity" just applies to generic versions of a creature, smaller or larger, class levels are automatically excluded.)


But this is mostly beside the point. Let me remind you that, like you said earlier in the thread, "it's really not clear". Interpretation is required. Your argument seems to be that an interpretation that allows Large Fleshrakers but disallows “10th level Human wizards” must inevitably be absurd. That is not the case. No, the "text" does not explicitly support it, but since the text does not explicitly support changing into any sort of "advanced form" I fail to see how that's relevant.

[MisterKaws]

This continues to not work even a little.

Well, it does if a DM likes giving players nicely weird things. Even Iron Chef's MoMF round let players do that, though none did because of the Vizzini effect.

[eggynack]

The examples mentioned are HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. And I hope you will agree that you don't get any of those. The implication is that you gain nothing unless the rules say you do. Size, natural armor and physical ability scores, which change due to increased size, are all explicitly gained. "Class levels" are not gained.

What I'm saying isn't that this level is a thing you're acquiring. You're taking on a form that happens to have a set of abilities. That that form is 10th level human wizard is as relevant as it is when said form is lion.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable interpretation to me. (Remember, it doesn't have to be the only possible interpretation.)

I definitely think your current position, couched in the notion that "10th level human wizard" doesn't do anything rather than that it's somehow a meaningfully distinct entity, is a stronger one. What you had before wasn't even really an interpretation as such. Still don't really agree, but it's more self consistent.

If you don't get the class levels, you don't get the class abilities. Seems reasonable to me.

I don't really think so. The form has a set of abilities. Where they come from precisely isn't that relevant, because alternate form defines you as getting or not getting the abilities.

"Form" is not clearly defined in the rules and requires interpretation.

What's your interpretation of the term that includes large lions and excludes 10th level whatevers? There needs to be some basis for the distinction that's rooted in... something.

Game-mechanically, options that make the game more fun/interesting for the players without causing problems are generally a good thing.

You yourself have argued that allowing "forms" with class levels would be a "very large potential balance issue" and "really wonky", and I agree. An interpretation that avoids large game balance issues and isn't wonky is generally better than the alternative.

I agree that running the game such that one thing is allowed and another isn't is possibly a positive thing. Where I disagree is in the idea that it's an interpretation. Interpretation connotes a self consistent approach rooted in some text that's present somewhere. The self consistency is critical. Otherwise, you're really working with a house rule.

Changing into "forms" with learned class abilities on the other hand does not make sense to me, and is not a common fantasy trope. Even the word "form" implies that it is primarily a physical change. So does the list of what does and doesn't change when you change form.

It doesn't matter if this is the kind of form you'd expect to take on, or whether elements of that form are things you'd think you'd adopt. All that matters is whether it is, in fact, a form. You're arguing here that form implies as part of its definition some variety of restriction to the physical, but this is demonstrably untrue due to the use of the same term in the text of shapechange, which explicitly brings about non-physical change.

(And how do you become "familiar with" a "form" with a character class, as per the wild shape rules? If you rule that "familiarity" just applies to generic versions of a creature, smaller or larger, class levels are automatically excluded.)

But the thing that's allowing you to get these larger forms is the idea that the advancement section of a text block implies a separate "generic" creature that you can be familiar with. Once you assume advancement applies a variety of generic creatures, that should generalize to all advancement. Don't see why it wouldn't.

But this is mostly beside the point. Let me remind you that, like you said earlier in the thread, "it's really not clear". Interpretation is required. Your argument seems to be that an interpretation that allows Large Fleshrakers but disallows “10th level Human wizards” must inevitably be absurd. That is not the case. No, the "text" does not explicitly support it, but since the text does not explicitly support changing into any sort of "advanced form" I fail to see how that's relevant.

If you don't think that the text supports changing into any advanced form, at all, then this isn't an interpretation at all, in either case. It's basically just a house rule, reflective of what you think should be allowed in game because it matches up with what you think wild shape should do. I think there may well be a valid RAW reading of the text that allows for the thing you're suggesting, but that said reading inevitably implies this reading you're against. If you're in houserule territory, I honestly don't care that much. Do what ya want in your game, y'know?

[Iku Rex]

What I'm saying isn't that this level is a thing you're acquiring. You're taking on a form that happens to have a set of abilities. That that form is 10th level human wizard is as relevant as it is when said form is lion.
...
... The form has a set of abilities. Where they come from precisely isn't that relevant, because alternate form defines you as getting or not getting the abilities.

"I change into a lion that was wearing a +6 Str item. Now my new wild shape form has 6 more Str than a regular lion. The fact that I am not wearing a +6 Str item is irrelevant - I'm taking on a form that happens to have a set of abilities."

There is nothing unreasonable about not granting class abilities to a character that doesn't have the class levels that grant those abilities.

What's your interpretation of the term that includes large lions and excludes 10th level whatevers? There needs to be some basis for the distinction that's rooted in... something.

Like I said, "form" is a natural choice.

Can you change into a lion that "had a starting Str of 18"? What's the term that includes lions with the regular 21 Str and excludes lions with 29 Str? Maybe you could even pick a lion with Str 100 - the rules don't explicitly say you can't, and the Str 100 lion is included in "all creatures with the animal type" (as per wild shape). What about a lion with the Rend ability? Still an animal...

Rules always require interpretation. For example, if a law uses the word "ship" a judge will have to decide if the ... object ... involved in a case is a "ship" or not. That interpretation may be fairly simple if the word is carefully defined in the law. If it isn't the judge has to make his own decision. Based on what? Is the judge rewriting the law?

In RPG terms you could say that whatever the judge decides is a "house rule", which is sort of true. "In this campaign, 'ship' means..." Or even "in this campaign, in this particular rule, 'ship' means..." But RPGs require a GM to make all sorts of "house rules" involving interpretation. That's different from house rules that are intended to change a rule the GM doesn't like.

It doesn't matter if this is the kind of form you'd expect to take on, or whether elements of that form are things you'd think you'd adopt. All that matters is whether it is, in fact, a form. You're arguing here that form implies as part of its definition some variety of restriction to the physical, but this is demonstrably untrue due to the use of the same term in the text of shapechange, which explicitly brings about non-physical change.

Physical as opposed to mental/learned. I would say that shapechange is still mostly physical. You get the abilities that are inborn, not those that are learned. It's just better copy that polymorph.

But the thing that's allowing you to get these larger forms is the idea that the advancement section of a text block implies a separate "generic" creature that you can be familiar with. Once you assume advancement applies a variety of generic creatures, that should generalize to all advancement. Don't see why it wouldn't.

Why should it necessarily "generalize to all advancement"? Why would being able to become familiar with a larger species variant of a typical creature from the MM mean that you must also be able to become "familiar" with every possible class combination? (How would that even work?)

I think there may well be a valid RAW reading of the text that allows for the thing you're suggesting, but that said reading inevitably implies this reading you're against.

Ok. What is that valid RAW reading? What word or phrase in the text could - potentially, arguably - allow you to change into form of an "advanced" creature?

[Bronk]

I'd say that a druid can take the form of a creature advanced through additional hit dice, because that's both in the creature's entry and is also a creature the druid can be familiar with, even if it's through the appropriate skill check.

I would say that a druid can't take on the form of a creature advanced through class levels because of this line from alternate form:

Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.

Unless you're using some kind of alternate quasi-gestalt rules, there's no way to keep your own list of class abilities and have an entirely other set at the same time.