General Anime Discussion: Area 11

[Terraoblivion]

Over the last week I've been working my way through the four big manga of what can be considered the new wave of yuri, focused on realism and setting the yuri in a wider society mostly made up of straight people. What I can tell is that they're all quite good, despite the problems I had with Aoi Hana, but also that they're quite different.

Aoi Hana was the first one in 2004 and is the one closest to the archetypal MariMite mold. It still has the impossibly fancy girl's school and students looking up to their sempai and so on. It does, however, still pioneer the general themes of the four, with recognizing heterosexuality as being important in society and sex actually happening, without reducing it to fanservice. And I said a whole lot about the problems I think it has above, but don't let it dissuade you too much, there's still plenty of awesome stuff in it.

The other three are, at least to my knowledge, substantially less famous, but each pushes the move away from formalized, age-based relationships in girl's schools quite a bit in different ways. Octave does this the most, focusing on a pair of working adults who bump into each other at random and concludes that the other is hot and they want to sleep with them. It puts sex front and center, again without much fanservice to it, as it is what started the relationship between the main characters and no small part of their motivation and worries. Adult careers and finding your place in the world outside the safe confines of the educational system is similarly a major part of the story. It's generally quite good, but suffers heavily under the drama being driven by one of the main characters having a unique talent for always doing and saying the wrong thing. It might be realistic, though I'm not sure, but it gets tiring at times.

Girl Friends on the other hand is about high school girls in a girls' school. Unlike the archetype, however, it focuses on characters with strong ties outside the school. Neither of the main characters are in any clubs and the things they and their friends care about involve fairly common things like shopping and, for their friends, dating. No other yuri that I know of spends as much time on the world of heterosexual romance and dating as this one does. Nor can I recall ever seeing a manga focusing on the fashion and dating oriented girls who are probably the most common distinct teen subculture in Japan, though I think it overestimates their disposable income for clothes and cosmetics some. Still, it is nice to see a group barely represented in manga and often maligned in mainstream culture get portrayed sympathetically and on its own terms. Unfortunately the drama is kinda dragged out by misunderstandings.

Finally, there is my personal favorite Sasameki Koto. Not only is it set in an ordinary high school, rather than a girl's school, but it's also very much a comedy for the first half, with much of the comedy not particularly centering on the girl's being cute. Even so, the actual drama it has is realistic, god knows that I've been there reacting like both main characters and the minor character who gets the most drama, and quite heartbreaking. Somehow, despite the obvious unrealism for comedy and in making Sumika and Tomoe as perfect as they are, it just comes off more believable to me than any of the others. The drama seems to grow naturally from the personalities of the characters and their relationships and it takes forms I know from myself, friends and family. The manga isn't completely without flaws, it drags some with subplots that aren't strictly necessary and not all of the humor works *cough*chapter 7*cough*. Also, the transition from humor dominating to drama dominating, did leave some odd relics. Still, it's my favorite of these and the one I think ultimately works the best.

And that's my short guide to the more substantial and filling yuri out there. There is other yuri I love, such as Wife and Wife and the complete works of Miyabi Fujieda, but they're ultimately just fluffy wish fulfillment fantasies. I honestly do love them more than all but Sasameki Koto of these, but they're a different genre. Also, as much as I talk about distance from the mold as MariMite as a good thing, I do love the show. I just like getting more realistic and grounded representations of lesbians, ones I can relate to my own life and to the problems I know face many lesbians, rather than just go along. Like the difference between watching a popcorn movie and watching serious drama. So here is my recommendation for Sasameki Koto, Girl Friends, Octave and Aoi Hana. So if you're interested in romance, stories about growing up or watching cute girls be cute together go read these.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Have you read Strawberry Shake Sweet? I found that pretty amusing in a comedy focused romcom sort of way.

To be honest my perfect yuri story would probably be a just a regular adventure story with a lesbian protagonist and romance as a sideplot at best. Relationship drama gets unrelenting when it isn't mixed with other forms of drama. I don't need to read fiction to get relationship angst.

Pity such a story would probably suck since basing a story of a single gimick "the same as that other story but with lesbians" can't sustain itself without general ingenuity in other areas.

In general niche romances suffer from characterisation problems because 'she's gay' isn't really a characterisation and is usualy the least interesting thing about a person in real life. Every story has the problem of having to make its characters appealing in a way that is at least superficially unique and adding 'niche genre elements' is often a crutch that stops you failing uttlery but also stops you from achieving anything amazing.

I feel so bad, right now. I read all the Aoi Hana translated so far after hearing pretty much everyone who ever read it praise it highly and I was so disappointed.

Good stories being inflated to 'absolutely awesome" status due to being in a bad genre happens all the time. My dad had that problem with Let the Right One in, which he didn't really like due not liking horror movies despite being able to recognise that it had some decent craftmanship.

[Dispozition]

I heard yuri and have to throw "Girlfriends" out there. A fairly short (30 chapterish) manga that's amazing. Some slight nsfw nearing the end, but mostly just cute and awesome.

You should all read it (:

[Terraoblivion]

Girl Friends on the other hand is about high school girls in a girls' school. Unlike the archetype, however, it focuses on characters with strong ties outside the school. Neither of the main characters are in any clubs and the things they and their friends care about involve fairly common things like shopping and, for their friends, dating. No other yuri that I know of spends as much time on the world of heterosexual romance and dating as this one does. Nor can I recall ever seeing a manga focusing on the fashion and dating oriented girls who are probably the most common distinct teen subculture in Japan, though I think it overestimates their disposable income for clothes and cosmetics some. Still, it is nice to see a group barely represented in manga and often maligned in mainstream culture get portrayed sympathetically and on its own terms. Unfortunately the drama is kinda dragged out by misunderstandings.

I believe I did mention Girl Friends.

And, yeah, it really is quite awesome, despite all the misunderstandings and Mari trying her hardest to see how oblivious she can be. I definitely recommend it to anybody who cares the slightest bit for romance drama, because it's just that good.

Also, it brings up an important aspect of yuri that Closet Skeleton mentioned. The good ones do have the main characters have personalities outside their sexuality and generally also the side characters. That doesn't mean that there aren't a number of bad yuri out there which fails to do anything to make the characters seem like individuals, but the four I talked about in my last post isn't among them. Though it does take a few chapters for Aoi Hana to remember that characterization is needed.

Further, I agree that it would be awesome to have a fairly standard story in whatever other genre where the main character happens to be homosexual. While I do love serious yuri and think that writing stories dealing with the specific issues homosexuals face, I would also like to see gay people portrayed in more ordinary manners rather than segregated to our own literary ghetto. Unfortunately that's kinda hard, only example I can think about is the Read or Die TV series and that isn't terribly explicit about it.

EDIT: And finally, the long hiatus in translations of Sasameki Koto is over with two new chapters. They're quite nice ones too...Poor Sumika.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Unfortunately that's kinda hard, only example I can think about is the Read or Die TV series and that isn't terribly explicit about it.

The only yuri in R.O.D. TV. is an implied relationship between a woman with braindamage and a woman who's implied to still love some guy she hasn't seen in almost/over a decade and is responisble for the death of the braindamaged woman's boyfriend.

Other than that there's an innocent relationship between two school girls where both of them have guys they obviously like less platonically than they like each other and a woman who's either asexual, straight or self deluded who rebukes any teasing from her friends that she was ever in that kind of a relationship.

I suppose 'yuri' doesn't really differentiate that much between romantic and non-romantic relationships between women anyway. Not in the way 'lesbian' would anyway.

Half the cast could be claimed to be at least bisexual. But I suppose most 'gay' fictional characters tend to be bisexual once you debate the 'facts' of what actually happens in the stories they're in. If you try and classify 'bisexual romance' as a genre you find that its the largest genre nobody seems to care exists. Try hard enough and 'fiction' and 'bisexual fiction' basically become the same thing. But that's probably trying too hard.

Further, I agree that it would be awesome to have a fairly standard story in whatever other genre where the main character happens to be homosexual.

Most people seem to get by watching fairly standard stories in whatever over genres and squinting really hard.

Never really worked for me.

[Terraoblivion]

It's implied and can be argued, yes, but I honestly find it pretty unlikely that Nenene doesn't love Yomiko. Her evasiveness on whether it is love when talking to Anita and her acting like it is throughout. Even others in the show seem to be interpret it that, such as the time when Nenene denied it to those two friends. This is especially when she explicitly does in the light novels and Yomiko doesn't exactly make a great case for her own heterosexuality, though given that she was in love with Donnie she'd be bi rather than lesbian. As for the schoolgirls, the idea of Anita and Junior was explicitly and intentionally dropped because they were boring as hell together and Hisami turned down the guy who had a crush on her by stating there was someone else she liked.

Still, I'd vastly prefer if they were explicit about it, but the logical contortions to make some of the relationships between girls and women in it be platonic rather than romantic are more extreme than the ones making the case for romantic, so that's the version I'm sticking with. Not like many older shows and manga considered yuri stated it terribly explicitly either. In fact, I can't think of any that are older than Aoi Hana that does, so for anything as old as ROD you have to guess and this is one of the few cases outside Class S relationships where the guess of lesbian relationships really makes a whole lot of sense.

Also, I like having a show where the main characters are gay and it isn't about homosexuality and bisexuality specifically, so stop applying the heterosexuality equivalent of occam's razor.

[Dispozition]

I believe I did mention Girl Friends.

Oh, sorry...I don't really read anything but keywords in this thread anymore...Or Negima Discussion, so I missed that >.<

[Newman]

Negima is really very very JRPG-ish, isn't it?

I haven't watched any new anime since summer. It seems that I grow weary of teenage boys saving the world. I mean, they're interesting and emotional and all, but... Any recommendations? How was persona 4? I'll probably never play the games, so is the anime woth it? How's the scene with Seinen anime?

[Closet_Skeleton]

It's implied and can be argued, yes, but I honestly find it pretty unlikely that Nenene doesn't love Yomiko. Her evasiveness on whether it is love when talking to Anita and her acting like it is throughout. Even others in the show seem to be interpret it that, such as the time when Nenene denied it to those two friends.

Yomiko certainly treats Nenene like an ex-girlfriend she feels guilty about cheating on.

Nenene could be asexual for all I know. She certainly doesn't consider herself to have ever been romantically involved, even if that's denial.

Hisami turned down the guy who had a crush on her by stating there was someone else she liked.

I seem to somehow miss that part when I watch this series. If everyone else noticed it then i guess its probably there.

Also, I like having a show where the main characters are gay and it isn't about homosexuality and bisexuality specifically, so stop applying the heterosexuality equivalent of occam's razor.

Even in a show with a primarily homosexual caste some of the relationships need to be platonic. Otherwise you end up with a caste of lesbian mysogynists.

If a person finds platonic relationships interesting than having everyone tell you that they don't exist and everyone is having sex off screen is pretty annoying too.

The recognition of how important sexual desire is in lesbian romance is great and quite rare in the usually chaste genre of yuri.

Female sexual desire is pretty absent in a lot of genres of fiction (the exceptions being books by and for older women, which is a large portion of fiction anyway). A genre that removes male desire as being important entirely ending up as mostly chaste just seems like a natural result of that to me (even if there are politics that make it complicated).

[Terraoblivion]

The removal of female desire is itself political. It's a product of Victorian gender politics that has survived until the present day. Like so many others.

As for platonic relationships. There's Nenene to the Paper Sisters who she cares deeply about, the Paper Sisters to each other, Michelle to Nenene, Anita to her other friends at school, Yomiko to everyone but Nenene and Nancy, Nancy to everyone but Yomiko...yeah, seems like there are quite a few platonic relationships between girls. Especially the ones involving the Paper Sisters are given a great deal of attention in the story.

Really, I'm just applying the same standards people use for straight relationships here. Nobody would believe that there was nothing between Nenene and Yomiko upon seeing Nenene's reaction to Yomiko's if Yomiko had been a man. Similarly if Anita had been a boy, her and Hisami's relationship would immediately be taken as their first, awkward love by pretty much everyone except extreme shippers who wanted them with someone else.

[Newman]

One feels like inquiring as to what sexual desire actually entails. If you think of it, it doesn't exactly feel like "I want to have one or a few intercourse sessions with that person". There's more to lust than the actual sex. It's not really clear in my head right now, but I'd venture stuff related to "acquisition"/"posession" and "power dynamics" is mixed there somewhere.

The problem with "base" feelings and motivations is that they tend to be, well, muddled, messy, weird. Maybe that's why some people who like to think they're masters of their own selves give up on that sort of impulse entirely.

Still, I don't get why people beat themselves over simply having those feelings. Right now I'm dipping a little in Eva fanfiction, and I can't help but remember that sexual repression and reprehension, and its conflict with desire, is sort of a major theme in the story. Shinji spradically lusts after Misato, Rei and Asuka. Most infamously, his... getting overwhelmed with his lust... upon the vision of her comatose naked body brings his self-esteen into realms of negativity that were previously thought to be impossible. Asuka lusts after Shinji, Kaji, and is desperately and paradoxically in need of a powerful male figure to lead and protect her. Rei... who can tell what's going on with her... and that's just Rei II. Rei I viciously tears her "father's" lover apart, Rei III gets literally joined at the hip with Shinji... Misato shows off her body constantly (except when she puts her commander hat on) and this is somehow linked to a "skunk" self image and low self esteem. And lousy hygiene. Her relationship with Kaji... whoever heard of a one-week sex marathon? And she infamously made advances to Shinji, more than once, because she couldn't think of another way of encouraging him: she has communication issues... And about Gendou and the Akagis... Oh, I have opened such a can of worms, haven't I? Anyway, I just wanted to point out this self-hate over sex thing that's been going on for a while in many cultures, and which I'm trying to get, because I don't see the harm in lusting after people... I mean, what's the deal? Frustration? Obsession? Is that the problem? Aren't those stuff kind of basic self-control we're taught how to deal with as children, so we can move on to more complicated stuff?

Am I making any sense to you guys?

[Tengu_temp]

Negima is really very very JRPG-ish, isn't it?

Ken Akamatsu is a big fan of video games, so yes.

I have to catch up to the Persona 4 animu because real life keeps getting in the way, but what I saw of it was great. Dunno how will it feel for someone who never played the game, but I'd say give it a try. Just don't give up after the first episode, its pacing is kinda rushed.

[Kato]

So... I'm finally done with the shows I really cared for (or rather, the one i saw regularly) last year.

Horizon in the Middle of Nowhere was pretty nice, nice comedy,nice action, nice ecchi... really not much I can complain about. Also, Old Snake lookalike was awesome and German speaking leasbian withces on magitek brroms even more so. It's nothing too deep but quite a crazy backstory but I really enjoyed it.

Mawaru Pneguindrum... well, it certainly wasn't a bad show but... it was so... artsy and all the symbolic and stuff got a bit too weird for me at times. I'd rather have a whole series just being comedy and less weird stuff... Episode 16 still was among the best 20 minutes of anime I've ever seen. Ever.

[Newman]

Is there such a thing as a tabletop JRPG? In style if not in actual making? (I'm told Anima is sort of like that).

[Tengu_temp]

Is there such a thing as a tabletop JRPG? In style if not in actual making? (I'm told Anima is sort of like that).

Returners' FFRPG game (pretty bad), Big Eyes Small Mouth (decent, but worse than the next option), Mutants and Masterminds with the Mecha and Manga supplement (my personal choice), pretty much any non-gritty RPG where you just add the anime stylistics (DND 4e works surprisingly well here).

[Closet_Skeleton]

Returners' FFRPG game (pretty bad), Big Eyes Small Mouth (decent, but worse than the next option), Mutants and Masterminds with the Mecha and Manga supplement (my personal choice), pretty much any non-gritty RPG where you just add the anime stylistics (DND 4e works surprisingly well here).

That would be anime inspired RPGs. If Newman meant 'a tabletop version of a JRPG' then really I don't think JRPGs are any less D&D inspired than western computer RPGs.

[Tengu_temp]

The only difference between an anime-inspired tabletop game and a jRPG-inspired tabletop game I can think of is that for the latter it's almost mandatory to have a boring and/or completely unchallenging combat system, while for the former not necessarily.

[Nerd-o-rama]

And an MP and HP bar.

[Tengu_temp]

BESM has that. It's also inferior to how Mutants and Masterminds handles its damage.

[Tenno Seremel]

And an MP and HP bar.

Hey, 3.5 psionics is awesome.

[Salbazier]

Is there such a thing as a tabletop JRPG? In style if not in actual making? (I'm told Anima is sort of like that).

Doesn't they have quite a number of something like that in Japan?

[Newman]

That's why I'm asking.

[Salbazier]

Sorry, in restrospect perhaps it was a bit silly to answer your question that way.

What I mean is that I remember there is quite a number of Japanese only Tabletop RPGs. Presumably they would be rife with common JRPG trappings. I can't quite remember though. Its been a while since I hunt info for those things and obviously since I don't read japanese I didn't get may results.

[SITB]

Sorry, in restrospect perhaps it was a bit silly to answer your question that way.

What I mean is that I remember there is quite a number of Japanese only Tabletop RPGs. Presumably they would be rife with common JRPG trappings. I can't quite remember though. Its been a while since I hunt info for those things and obviously since I don't read japanese I didn't get may results.

Err, no?

For instance this is a wrtieup on japanese tabletop game in "FATAL and Friends: Obscure and/or mockable RPG books" thread on SA: Part 1, Part 2

Saying that japanses tabletop RPG would have jRPGs trapping is like saying that all tabletop gaming in the western sphere is like D&D.

[tensai_oni]

Wasn't Yuyake Koyake recently translated into English? Also that system really reminds me of this forum's poster Kasanip for some reason.

[mallorean_thug]

If people are looking for a show to watch this season, may I suggest Bodacious Space Pirates.

I can't think of anything that will sum it up better than its OP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ2-B8knZAo

(Of course Nisemonogatari is also excellent, but I assume anybody that cares about it will already be watching it, and people that are curious about it need to go watch Bakemonogatari first anyways.)

[Krazzman]

Hi there, I don't know if this would lead to be off topic but I'm in search of a new Anime to watch, since Tuesdays - Bleach, Thursdays - Naruto and Saturday - Fairy Tail, I run into the problem of having nothing worthwhile to watch in my freetime.

So can you recommend me anything that goes in the direction of the 3 named ones? I was currently watching Megaman NT Warrior but somehow this didn't quite hit it.

I hope you can help me and can thank you in advance.

[Tengu_temp]

Fullmetal Alchemist, either anime (there's two, the more recent one stays much closer to the manga but suffers some pacing issues at the beginning). Or if you want an endless show like Narubleach Z, try One Piece, though that's better as a manga.

Bodacious Space Pirates

I don't know if that show is good or not, but man, this has to be the most embarassing name ever. Outside of porn.

[Krazzman]

Sadly I've seen them both (Brotherhood twice...although the most time intoxicated...). One Piece is being read and for other things:
I've seen Trigun, Trinity Blood, Speed Graphers, Darker Than Black, Black 13 (or Black Cat, can't remember correctly), Slayers, Record of Lodoss War and Berserk.

[Mercenary Pen]

Hi there, I don't know if this would lead to be off topic but I'm in search of a new Anime to watch, since Tuesdays - Bleach, Thursdays - Naruto and Saturday - Fairy Tail, I run into the problem of having nothing worthwhile to watch in my freetime.

So can you recommend me anything that goes in the direction of the 3 named ones? I was currently watching Megaman NT Warrior but somehow this didn't quite hit it.

I hope you can help me and can thank you in advance.

Maybe Samurai 7 might suit you for about 26 episodes worth of time?

Edit: Also, how much of Slayers have you seen? There's quite a few spin off series...