General Anime Discussion: Area 11

[Soras Teva Gee]

You haven't addressed agency at all.

Agency has yet to be put into terms I consider meaningful. Its thus far been near as I can tell been a code word "not using sufficient character types I like" or something.

Fate/Zero use only a few number of women and everybody dies. The women are all in supportive roles true, but there is exactly zero requirement in existance that this not be true. Nor does it give any indication that it has a problem with women in active roles, it simply chooses to make only the most limited use of them. Well depending on how you view Saber, who interacts almost exclusively with Iri. I find Saber is probably wasted in the rather haphazard story we have with the series, but it has nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with this being a prequel.

If the only options you can see are "rampant misogyny" and "active censoring" then you have a serious problem.

Hardly, but none of them are appropriate for Fate/Zero.

For that matter, why is censorship of misogyny worse than the censorship of two men kissing or women enjoying sex that the MPAA already imposes?

Its not in the slightest. Would you like a supporter in those matters on a situations in a forum that allows politics?

For that matter, censorship really only entered the topic because of you. You're the one who accused me of it and you're the one whose reaction to hearing bad things about something you like was to tell me to shut up and stop ruining your fun.

Then we can get back to Fate/Zero then?

And the "shut up" was noting that I got over worrying about such matters in such (at most) trivial cases. Fate/Zero would be hard to describe as femminist, but it has nothing against women as a group it simply doesn't use certain character types in its story. Much anyways. There's really nothing here except maybe that it is actually willing to hurt the women in the story on screen. But they aren't unceremoniously dumped on while the men get off scot-free either so you are reduced to picking apart the manner of their deaths.

It's not about numbers, it's about treatment.

Right there it was entirely about numbers. The rest is nothing new to me. I was deliberately poking at our slipshod corruption of words to try and make the term not about it.

That's not normal political correctness, that's taking it to the extreme. Everything is bad when taken to the extreme. Normal political correctness is about treating people who are different than you with respect and trying to understand the problems they go through. You know, the opposite of saying "it's not my problem so I refuse to acknowledge that it might be your problem, shut up about it and stop ruining my fun".

Well that's an interesting definition of the concept. Of course I don't see a useful distinction between grades in there and find the extreme forms far more influential, under yours I doubt the concept would exist. Political correctness generally implies that it is sufficiently extreme to be too far in the eyes of the person saying it. The objection is generally built right in when the word is broken out.

And I did consider the problem and decided, after some review, that the objections have no merit. Ergo there is no problem. Or at the most its at the level which you'd be better to simply ignore it and move along. You all seem to have corrupted that into I'm somehow trying to force anything. Its much more zen then that really. I see things that offend me everyday, I got over getting worked up over little cases I can do nothing about.

I will however continue to attack objections I feel have no merit. As is the case here. There's nothing wrong with Fate/Zero as far as gender treatment is concerned.

(There are other problems with the story for sure but nobody seems interested in those)

[NeonBlack]

Wait, Dog Days is still running? From the others... only AGE at the moment. Though I like to call it SAW since two weeks ago...

Second season just started, actually. Haven't seen it yet, but from what I've read it's more of the same (with emphasis on 'more'). Which is good.

Summer is, as expected, somewhat drier than spring was for me. Gonna be Dog Days S2, YuruYuri S2, maybe Tari Tari (which I've seen described as Hanasaku Iroha meets K-On!, which kinda strikes my fancy), probably Jinrui wa Suitaishima****a/Humanity is Declining, and maaaybe Sword Art Online.

That is, if my computer ever stops threatening to implode any time I make it do anything harder on the cooling fans than a Firefox window . And even then my backlog from spring is so big it will probably take me the whole summer to work through. Sigh.

Fake edit: welp, the word filter strikes again. Everyone can guess what those four letters are, I suppose.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Second season just started, actually. Haven't seen it yet, but from what I've read it's more of the same (with emphasis on 'more'). Which is good.

The first episode is out (to my great and boundless joy) and you have the gist of what's in play so far.

No telling where they will go with it, no sign of what the underlying serious element will/might be save that three nations are in the mix this time.

[kamikasei]

Agency has yet to be put into terms I consider meaningful. Its thus far been near as I can tell been a code word "not using sufficient character types I like" or something.

"I literally did not understand the meaning of the words you used, but I figured it was better to assume you were babbling nonsense than to actually ask for clarification and risk learning something."

[Terraoblivion]

Agency has yet to be put into terms I consider meaningful. Its thus far been near as I can tell been a code word "not using sufficient character types I like" or something.

I thought you were a native English speaker. It's not exactly an esoteric or technical term, you know. It basically means independently taking proactive steps in pursuing your own goals. Rin and Sola-Ui are the only female characters in Fate/Zero to pursue goals that aren't defined for them by men. Of those two Sola-Ui's goal is getting into the pants of a man thanks to a curse leveled on said man and her actions mostly serve to advance the story of said man.

As for everyone dying, that's patently not true. A lot of characters major and minor survive. Let's see...Kiritsugu, Waver, Kirei, Gilgamesh, Zouken, the old couple, Shirou, Sakura, Rin, Saber and Aoi. Probably more if I start digging into other really minor characters. However, it's not just a matter of dying or not dying but how it happens and how it is presented. Sure strangling might be more pleasant than what happened to Kariya, but it's also the archetypal sexualized death and the direction certainly doesn't try to detract from that. Not to mention that for how horrible Kariya's fate is, he's still shown to heroically struggle towards a worthy goal even as he suffers it, rather than just break down and give in and die. There's nothing heroic about the death in either stranglings, there is in Kariya's fate. And I still find it baffling that you consider how things went for Waver even remotely as bad as the outcomes for any of the female characters. Even Rin ended up way worse off losing her parents and sister and ending up in the care of Kirei.

[Tengu_temp]

For some reason it looks like a try to get a new TTGL done... awesome action with manliness to stick it together... Not sure if that works another time but I guess I might give it a try.

It's not a real anime. It's a pachinko game.

Political correctness generally implies that it is sufficiently extreme to be too far in the eyes of the person saying it. The objection is generally built right in when the word is broken out.

Mostly because in everyday discussion, the term usually comes up when someone mocks the concept. Often in a "I see the world in black and white binary solutions, I'm not going to one ridiculous extreme and call Christmas 'Winter Solstice' so instead I'm going to be a racist, sexist *******" way.

I will however continue to attack objections I feel have no merit. As is the case here. There's nothing wrong with Fate/Zero as far as gender treatment is concerned.

I haven't seen the show but I prefer to trust Terra's judgement here, for several reasons. The fact that she's a woman and thus it's easier for her to notice when something is misogynistic is a big, but not the only one.

[Mercenary Pen]

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It's... Combattler V. But it's awesome. What madness is this?

What series are you watching right now? I'm keeping up with Accel World, DOG DAYS', Gundam AGE, and Sword Art Online (already read vol1 of the LN and enjoyed it). Tentatively watching Hagure Yuusha no Estetica - too early to tell if its plot/action will amount to anything.

Currently Pokemon and Yugioh Zexal for the nostalgia value, also One Piece, Gundam AGE and Space Brothers. Waiting for more from Rinne no Lagrange and desperately hoping for more from Mouretsu Pirates.

Edit: Rinne no Lagrange has started back up, so add that to the watch list...

[Terraoblivion]

Currently Pokemon and Yugioh Zexal for the nostalgia value, also One Piece, Gundam AGE and Space Brothers. Waiting for more from Rinne no Lagrange and desperately hoping for more from Mouretsu Pirates.

Like I said a page or so ago, a movie has been confirmed for Mouretsu Pirates and given how the show ended I imagine it'll be a continuation rather than a recap.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I thought you were a native English speaker. It's not exactly an esoteric or technical term, you know. It basically means independently taking proactive steps in pursuing your own goals. Rin and Sola-Ui are the only female characters in Fate/Zero to pursue goals that aren't defined for them by men. Of those two Sola-Ui's goal is getting into the pants of a man thanks to a curse leveled on said man and her actions mostly serve to advance the story of said man.

That's not "agency" as I've ever used it.

Anyways...

I'm not really seeing more here then comes with using character in supporting roles. What are they supposed to argue and is there supposed to be internal strife between the factions? There's some of that with Kayneth and Sola-Ui even before the curse is in play, since she was evidently not happy with him and never seems to care for Kayneth much at any point. On the other hand Kiritsugu and Iri are evidently quite happily married of course they have a shared purpose.

I'm don't see much in that would not just be so much filler in the story. Should all the women have little quirks like Iri's curiosity about driving? I can see that added maybe but nothing demands it. Rin's little independent adventure is easily the biggest such case in the story. I consider a waste of time since it only increases the rather lackluster cohesion of the story. I would snip it in a heartbeat personally.

Of course this all rather ignores Saber's goal entirely, since her goal of undoing her own past is rather selfish and certainly wasn't set by anyone but her. I'm not sure that she speaks to any human but Iri and Maiya, and her nominal Master only interacts with her directly when absolutely nessecary.

As for everyone dying, that's patently not true. A lot of characters major and minor survive. Let's see...Kiritsugu, Waver, Kirei, Gilgamesh, Zouken, the old couple, Shirou, Sakura, Rin, Saber and Aoi.

Most of those HAVE to survive because they are in F/SN. Even then Rin, Sakura, and Zouken seem to be more glorified cameos

Aoi is also effectively dead, I can't recall any mention of her in F/SN so she either died sometime between, or never recovered and is in an institution of some kind. Certainly she is not in residence by the Fifth unless I've missed a major detail somewhere she's as good as dead.

And Kiritsugu did not survive. He died a broken man from the curse of the Grail's corruption. It was the direct cause of his death, his body just took longer. For not dropping dead he got the "joy" of knowing just what his efforts came to and never seeing his daughter again. He only achieved a small penance in the form of Shirou

Waver is the only actual character who didn't have to survive that did. And he only got a bittersweet ending.

Probably more if I start digging into other really minor characters. However, it's not just a matter of dying or not dying but how it happens and how it is presented. Sure strangling might be more pleasant than what happened to Kariya, but it's also the archetypal sexualized death and the direction certainly doesn't try to detract from that.

Or its just a quick efficient way to kill someone that implies a lot of anger on the part of the killer.

I'm sorry but I'm not seeing any real problem here. As I've said, dead is dead. Neither Iri or Aoi was tortured or the like on screen that would make things actually a heinous. Dead is still dead in my book.

Heck even a bit of sexual tension to the killing doesn't equal broad sexism. As each victim was killed by their partner's 'opposite number' as it were there's perhaps a far more personal interpretation at play here. I've no real problem with that.

So yeah all in all still a fair ball in my court.

Not to mention that for how horrible Kariya's fate is, he's still shown to heroically struggle towards a worthy goal even as he suffers it, rather than just break down and give in and die. There's nothing heroic about the death in either stranglings, there is in Kariya's fate.

I think there's pretty of heroism in Iri's not flinching in the face of sure death. I rather like to think she wounded Kotomine in a more personal way then her hubby managed.

Aoi's of course not, but so?

And I still find it baffling that you consider how things went for Waver even remotely as bad as the outcomes for any of the female characters.

You seemed to have confused his ending with his story. His ending is far and away the best (unless you count triumphant villainy) nor was that what I was talking about. I'm talking about the role that gets him there.

Waver is Rider's tag-along-kid. He manages to do one useful thing in finding Caster's lair, but since this came to nothing. Other then that he... gives Rider a few messages and provides some mild comic relief. He makes less of an impact then Ryuunosuke who evidently helped out Caster by gather 'raw materials' with some success. Waver's rather below Maiya in actual, who for example was quite nessecary for the final take down of Kayneth/Sola-Ui. Certainly below Iri and Saber.

Though he arguably has some importance as a faux protagonist or viewpoint character, I don't give that much credit since he's still truly an just an observer.

[kamikasei]

That's not "agency" as I've ever used it.

Have you considered that perhaps there are things you don't know, and that if someone's using a word in a way you don't recognize, it may be that they know a meaning for it you don't?

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I'm sorry but I'm not seeing any real problem here. As I've said, dead is dead. Neither Iri or Aoi was tortured or the like on screen that would make things actually a heinous. Dead is still dead in my book.

Heck even a bit of sexual tension to the killing doesn't equal broad sexism.

Earlier you protested that you don't see things in black and white.

Here you're saying that so long as the characters die, that's the only detail that matters. How they die is irrelevant. The problem is pointed out to you directly and you say it simply doesn't matter. In what way is that not black and white thinking - "if it's not blatant or egregious enough for me to notice it right away, then even when someone else points it out to me I'll say it's not there at all"?

[Terraoblivion]

Okay, time to untangle what you're saying. The first point to think about is why all female characters are put in support roles. There's no inherent reason why that should be. The second one is why they seemingly have no personal goals for why they are in support roles. This honestly seems pretty bizarre, why do they have no goals in supporting the guys they do? It seems like proper writing 101 to establish goals for characters with any real significance. Really, it's that simple. Why include the characters if you're just going to treat them as extensions of other characters?

As for Saber's goal, it technically exists, but it has zero bearing on the story. All she does to achieve it is obey Kiritsugu, follow his plans and generally be his henchwoman. It's barely even mentioned. So, yeah, I don't think it really does anything to have her show agency.

And I'm not really sure what definition of survival you're operating under. Aoi does survive, as a broken, braindamaged wreck and Kiritsugu is a much clearer case for survival. He apparently hangs on for years, does a fair bit of raising Shirou and clearly still interacts with the economy enough that the two of them doesn't starve to death. I'm really not sure how you define alive to exclude a depressed person doing that.

In general, it seems like you don't even get the concept of execution mattering in fiction, only looking at results and doing so from an in universe perspective. Repeatedly killing off female characters in a rapey way has OOC implications regardless of the IC justifications for it. Choosing to portray all women as wholly dependent extensions of men is still a choice the writer made, no matter what justifications he comes up with. Really, read a high school textbook on literary theory or something.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Okay, time to untangle what you're saying. The first point to think about is why all female characters are put in support roles. There's no inherent reason why that should be. The second one is why they seemingly have no personal goals for why they are in support roles. This honestly seems pretty bizarre, why do they have no goals in supporting the guys they do? It seems like proper writing 101 to establish goals for characters with any real significance. Really, it's that simple. Why include the characters if you're just going to treat them as extensions of other characters?

Being a supportive character has to at some level involve the sharing of goals, that being y'know a support. Now if there's something else going on that's fine too, but what makes that required? Perhaps the writer simply didn't have anything in mind for them. Maybe they considered it unnecessary if it didn't in some way add to the main plot so didn't bother. Maybe they decided it would be more creatively pleasing for them to create characters with singular goals. A lot of major character in Fate/Zero have pretty singular ambitions to begin with.

What other goal could Iri or Maiya have that has any relevance or be achievable within the story. Iri for example already knows she won't survive the Grail war regardless, she starts having gotten essentially everything she's going to get out of life and knows it. What goal could she have that would be beyond a quirky trait like loving to drive? Or not run into the problem of Rin's side-story being so much filler.

Now mind you if a writer comes up with multiple goals, ambitions, motivations, etc and makes them works that's fine. But its not inherently a better story simply because a character has added traits to them. Much less some kind of requirement.

And what in all of this makes it about gender. More particular that makes it sexist or says that women are somehow inferior in general. I venture we can at least infer from Madoka and the Nasuverse in general that neither creators has anything against women in more active roles since they don't use exclusively passive supporting ones. Heck we even see it in this work with Natalia, who Kiritsugu followed around like a puppy. In that story he would be her supporting character.

As for Saber's goal, it technically exists, but it has zero bearing on the story. All she does to achieve it is obey Kiritsugu, follow his plans and generally be his henchwoman. It's barely even mentioned. So, yeah, I don't think it really does anything to have her show agency.

No.

I mean that's like factually wrong.

Saber and Kiritsugu's relationship is so dysfunctional its effectively non-existent. Its a plot point that Kiritsugu only speaks to Saber three times ever, when he uses the Command Seals. Saber never for a moment understood or even really coordinated with him. And my impression was that she acted and Kiritsugu plotted around that in simple reaction. Their relationship as Master and Servant is effectively "on paper" only. Iri fulfills the role of Saber's Master for more then simply deception. If Master and Servant share one thing it would be a desire to protect Iri. Heck I'd want to rewatch the series to be sure but I think you could make a decent case for Iri being the leader of her faction with every character in orbit around her.

And Saber's goal is brought up at some length at the feast. Now yes she makes no real progress on it, but that has nothing to do with her being female and everything to do with her needing to still have it when she hits F/SN.

And I'm not really sure what definition of survival you're operating under. Aoi does survive, as a broken, braindamaged wreck and Kiritsugu is a much clearer case for survival. He apparently hangs on for years, does a fair bit of raising Shirou and clearly still interacts with the economy enough that the two of them doesn't starve to death. I'm really not sure how you define alive to exclude a depressed person doing that.

Yes and we know Aoi did nothing further of note so thematically she died.

Likewise Kiritsugu doesn't get some long send off of his last five years, his death follows minutes later. While he does some good by Shirou, he's using up time while the curse kills him. Its why Fate/Zero ends with his death, because he didn't in the end survive. (A good comparasion point would be Lord El-Melloi II who while totally ineffectual in the Fourth was integral to ensuring the Fifth was the last after Fate and UBW. Waver Velvet genuinely survived)

In general, it seems like you don't even get the concept of execution mattering in fiction, only looking at results and doing so from an in universe perspective. Repeatedly killing off female characters in a rapey way has OOC implications regardless of the IC justifications for it.

I aggressively reject as merely knee-jerk social programing any reason to nitpick between being ganked by a servant offscreen, shot in the head, stabbing yourself with a spear through the heart, and being choked to death. What possible basis can such terrible but relatively quick (thus rather standard) deaths have to separate them. Measurement in milli-ouchies? There's no basis that can have anything approaching objective assessment between those. I know the only one that makes me feel uneasy personally is sniped in the head, but I recognize this as born of my own particular anxieties and not having any greater relevance

Now does Rider get a "better" death then Aoi... sure I guess. Mostly because Rider got a blaze of glory immediately prior to his deaths. If Gil had walked up to him on the street and stabbed him with his countless weapons Rider would plummet right down there with the rest. Probably below Iri who if I had to I would consider number #2 on this ever so morbid list for her calm and unflinching behavior.

What we really have have here is problem of scale. You accuse me of not getting your concepts. I get them just fine heck I even agree with a lot of them. But this case, this case is just insignificant on the scale I'm considering which goes quickly straight out of media into verboten IRL areas of much greater concern to me. Several orders of magnitude difference. If I actually let such a minor case who can at worst be accused of insensitivity (and has a fair case for it being simply cultural) be considered as worth an iota of my offense, I'd never be able to harbor hopes of achieving anything resembling tolerable.

[Kato]

Yeah, I realized it's comeback season...
Yuru Yuri 2, Dog Days 2, Rinne no Lagrange 2, Horizon in the Middle of Nowhere 2... I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or they don't have new ideas but I guess I'll watch them anyway and hate myself for it (or maybe not)

YY started out a bit weaker than last time... DD about the same (I still want Gaul to say "I'm all fired up!" and the damn-not-chocobos to vanish) and Rinne... well, I guess we wll get something a bit darker this time? We'll see.

[MLai]

I've just finished watching F/Z yesterday. I agree with Soras, and I have no idea what the "women in fridges" theorists are harping on. F/Z is so not a misogynistic story. Just because a story has women being killed by men, doesn't automatically make it "women in fridges."

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Repeatedly killing off female characters in a rapey way

You're talking about the chokings, I'm sure...
(1) Kariya on Aoi -- The rapey theme is intentional. Here is a spurned lover enacting self-righteous vengeance on the man who "stole" and "mistreated" the *object* of his affection, and realizing in his evil act of *passion* just how misguided and far from righteous he really was.
(2) Kelly on Iri -- It's less about rape, and more about intimacy in the act of killing. If Kelly just put a bullet into her head, or put her in a headlock and snapped her neck, it would be him killing her while being emotionally disconnected, which is his common mental trick to easily kill people. In this case, Kelly didn't do this. He choked Iri slowly and steadily, because she is the woman he loves and deserves more than being killed by a robot. And she deserved the time to curse him, and to hear his answer. If he is to kill her, he is going to burn that moment into his soul so that he can suffer for it forever.

Choosing to portray all women as wholly dependent extensions of men is still a choice the writer made, no matter what justifications he comes up with.

I suppose your biggest problems are with Aoi and Iri, who are as characters "the women behind the men". I could elaborate on how Aoi is there to fill a catalyst role, and how I agree that Iri is actually the moral and plot center of the Kelly team... but you'd probably say that the writer could have done the same with more proactive women characters, and that everything I would say would just be "justifications."

Then, how about consider that F/Z is a prequel, and due to plot constraints the proactive characters have to be men? Kirei, Kelly, Tokiomi... all men that have to be major characters in the story, as already set up by FSN. Kelly and Tokiomi have daughters... well, guess that means they need wives don't they? They are powerful and driven men, and the story revolves around them, as already set up by FSN... that means their wives act as support don't they? Remember, Iri could have turned out VERY different. Instead, she is a brave, intelligent woman full of hope even though she should be the most depressed person in the cast.

As for Saber... I don't know what possible complaint there can be. She found no resolution because it's setting up for FSN. But she's as proactive as you can get.

She's Kelly "henchwoman"? Did you miss all the parts where she's practically shooting daggers into him with her eyes? She continues to work with Kelly not because she's female and therefore powerless/subservient, but because her obtaining the Grail takes priority over her feelings about her temporary mage Master.

Perhaps you feel that the show took joy in breaking her down... Yes, it did. Because that's the point of her character in F/Z, just as that's the point of Kelly's character. They are both present in the story as representations of ideals/concepts that the writer relentlessly stripped away and broke down. For Saber, it served the added purpose of setting her up for FSN.

[tensai_oni]

"The rape imagery is intentional."

"The men are powerful and key players, so the female characters should serve as support for them."

"Breaking a female character down was intentional."

Just because the show's misogyny is deliberate does not make it any less misogynistic, you know.

[Terraoblivion]

Don't forget that it is all to advance the story of men, rather than that of those women, oni.

[MLai]

Taking a few statements out of context and calling it a day?

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"The rape imagery is intentional."
And the next sentence says "realizing... just how misguided and far from righteous he really was."

"The men are powerful and key players, so the female characters should serve as support for them."
The context of that: the men were already set up by FSN as the principal players and key characters of this 4th Grail War. They were also set up by FSN to have families. So either the wives are non-entities in this novel, like the way parents are in most shonen anime, or they play character roles within the constraints of FSN's set-up.

Soras had already explained why Aoi is so powerless. This is a magus family where normal societal rules do not apply, and the continuation of the magic line takes priority over all personal freedoms and desires. It is Tokiomi's family which is the story's tool to explain and show all this to the reader, so that Rin's future rebellion (not just confined to FSN; IIRC it became a life-long goal?) against this system has context. Rin's a girl.

"Breaking a female character down was intentional."
-____-;
In the very same sentence, I said that breaking Kelly down was also intentional. The male protag wasn't safe either.

Don't forget that it is all to advance the story of men, rather than that of those women, oni.

From FSN, who did you know would be major characters if there was a prequel?
Kerei. Kiritsugu. And likely Rin's father because you saw him in the flashback and he's the head -and the magus with all that implies- of the Tohsaka family. What can the writer do?

1. Make Caster's homicidal master a girl? Yay?
2. Make Waver a girl? Yay?
3. Make Kariya a woman? Yay crazy messed-up lesbian (or Fatal Attraction character if her object of affection is Tokiomi)?
4. Make Melloi a woman? Yay Bazette/Cuhulainn relationship fulfillment? Ofc if he was a she, Diarmuid probably would have never agreed to a contract.

How about this. Within the constraints of FSN, how might you possibly have written F/Z differently?

[Terraoblivion]

Just because it shows that the character is despicable, which I'm not sure was the intention but the scene was so awfully directed that I have no idea how to even tell, doesn't mean that rape imagery isn't still putting a man in a position of power over a woman in ways that have a lot of extremely uncomfortable connotations. And it happens as a tool for instant angst rather than as an exploration of the topic and to advance the story of the man. It's still misogynistic even if it was meant to show something bad about the guy.

As for the men being key players, the other masters and servants are kinda important too. They're also all men despite F/SN having no need for them being that. Everybody who does anything to direct the story is male, regardless of whether they were mentioned in F/SN or not. The women only ever passively reacts to or obey the men, none of the roles that get to be proactive or have any agency are female despite there being plenty of room to do so if Urobuchi had wanted to. He chose to make all the proactive roles that weren't defined by F/SN male too, nobody forced him to and there is no obvious internal logic requiring it.

And I really don't care for the argument about breaking Kiritsugu down. There was nothing to break down, the guy had no personality and him breaking down was more or less an informed ability due to that. Also, it took hell of a lot more to break him than to break Saber. He had to have a nigh-omnipotent evil artifact show him beyond a doubt that everything he believed in was wrong to break. She had to have a big, masculine dude go "you're doing it wrong". There's kind of a difference there, you know.

Finally, you do realize that there was no god given demand that the masters and servants not mentioned in F/SN had to be the ones who showed up, right? I don't see how Saber/Gilgamesh/Kiritsugu/Kirei/Tokiomi having the outcomes they do demand that Lancer is Diarmud ap Dynna or that Rider's master is kind of a crappy magus from a newcomer family. These were choices too. For that matter, I do think that a female Waver would have been a clear step up for the show. I mean, he's a sympathetic guy who gets to hang out with the coolest person around and becomes a better, more mature person thanks to it. It wouldn't be amazing if he was a girl, but it'd be hell of a lot better.

As for what I'd do. I'd have made a couple of female masters. I don't know exactly what they'd be like and the show would have gone in a rather different direction if any masters were replaced with someone else, regardless of gender. I'd also have added a female servant or two. Several ideas, heroic and villainous spring to mind, like Baba Yaga, Tomoe Gozen and La Maupin to name a few that easily spring to mind for different classes. And then I'd have given at least some of the female characters who are also there, minus any who would lose their reason to exist in the master swap, a more independent status. Finally, I'd have given Kiritsugu a personally and have him treat Iri in a way that makes it make sense for her to love him. It's not really hard, you know.

[kamikasei]

What can the writer do?

You list a number of things the writer could have done, but then immediately dismiss them, so I'm not sure what you're after here.

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You're saying that F/SN established we had to have Kirei, Kiritsugu, and Tokiomi in play, along with Saber and Gilgamesh. So... three of seven Masters, and two of seven Servants. So yes, as one obvious place to start, more of the remaining Masters and Servants could have been female. That would have helped. For example, in the drinking contest at Einzbern Castle, we could have had any other female Servant or hero or leader in the story instead of having two male rulers telling Saber not only that she was wrong but that she's "a little girl" who they won't even acknowledge as a monarch at all.

Just because a story has women being killed by men, doesn't automatically make it "women in fridges."

Of course not. But then, you go on to acknowledge that there's a lot more at work than just "women being killed by men", so your framing here is quite disingenuous. The two examples you give are attempted murder with acknowledged sexual overtones motivated by romantic rejection, and a murder deliberately made slower, more painful, and more intimate so that the murderer could punish himself thereby. In both cases it's all about the male characters' motivations and feelings - Kariya achieves the stunning realization that trying to strangle your ex-girlfriend for leaving you is a bad thing, Kiritsugu decides that he should make sure to drag out his betrayal and make Iri really suffer through it so that he can feel worse about himself. Your own descriptions say loud and clear that these are examples of sexualized violence directed against women for the sake of male characters. That's fridging.

I suppose your biggest problems are with Aoi and Iri, who are as characters "the women behind the men". I could elaborate on how Aoi is there to fill a catalyst role, and how I agree that Iri is actually the moral and plot center of the Kelly team... but you'd probably say that the writer could have done the same with more proactive women characters, and that everything I would say would just be "justifications."

...Yes. The female cast could be characters in their own right rather than accessories for the men. I'm not sure what your point about what you imagine Terra would say is, but... yes, that could have been done and would have been better.

[Terraoblivion]

And having done some research, I'd also like to point out that Maiya is hardly genderless. As this wiki page points out her background includes multiple rapes, a miscarriage and sleeping regularly with Kiritsugu. That's like enough to get half-way through cliché, misogynist backstory bingo, seriously, we just need an evil stepmother and being snubbed by the popular girls in high school to get there.

Seriously, this is not only ridiculously gendered Soras, I apologize if it was MLai or Kato who said that she was a genderless tool, but it's also extremely misogynistic. The constant use of rape and miscarriage as generic tragic background material is one of the common tropes that reduce women and their identity to their reproductive functions. Seriously, it's like reading BRPS or something.

[RPGuru1331]

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Being a supportive character has to at some level involve the sharing of goals, that being y'know a support.

Yes, and the women are almost all support... You don't see the problem though, do you?

Being a supportive character has to at some level involve the sharing of goals, that being y'know a support.

Yes, he only considered hte women satellite characters, because he grew up in a misogynist culture, and that actually does affect things.

What other goal could Iri or Maiya have that has any relevance or be achievable within the story.

Maiya could want to be a hero, like Kiritsugu. Irisviel could want a particular noble wish to come about.

And what in all of this makes it about gender

The fact that the difference is based on gender lines =.=

More particular that makes it sexist or says that women are somehow inferior in general.

Reality.

I venture we can at least infer from Madoka and the Nasuverse that neither creators has anything against women in more active roles

He wrote Madoka a couple of years later, and even then it doesn't really contradict much.

I venture we can at least infer from Madoka and the Nasuverse in general that neither creators has anything against women in more active roles

2 H-Games where almost all of the women are in a reality distortion field that make boring everymen the most attractive thing in ever? You sure?

Heck we even see it in this work with Natalia, who Kiritsugu followed around like a puppy. In that story he would be her supporting character.

And in any alternate storylines we propose, the plot could be less misogynist. In the one that actually happens, Natalia is a supporting character and a prop in Kiritsugu's backstory.

Heck I'd want to rewatch the series to be sure but I think you could make a decent case for Iri being the leader of her faction with every character in orbit around her.

Weasel Words, ho. Make the case, don't claim it could be made. (Good luck with that, btw, everyone is there because of Kiritsugu, it's his wish, they're working for his sake and generally on his plans...)

I aggressively reject as merely knee-jerk social programing

...of course you do.

any reason to nitpick between being ganked by a servant offscreen, shot
in the head, stabbing yourself with a spear through the heart, and being choked to death. What possible basis can such terrible but relatively quick (thus rather standard) deaths have to separate them.

a dude choking a woman is built on a particular archetype of sexualized violence seen in dozens of films, the others aren't. You say you understand what people are talking about, but you don't seem to follow this.

this case is just insignificant on the scale I'm considering which goes quickly straight out of media into verboten IRL areas

Ahahaha, of course. "It's not the worst thing ever, so no criticizing this one that is also bad."

If I actually let such a minor case who can at worst be accused of insensitivity

'insensitive' to only consider women satellites to men, is it?

(and has a fair case for it being simply cultural)

That's not really a defense of the work, which is what people are focusing on.

I'd never be able to harbor hopes of achieving anything resembling tolerable.

Your limitations are not those of others.

[RPGuru1331]

Spoilers for F/Z below

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(1) Kariya on Aoi -- The rapey theme is intentional. Here is a spurned lover enacting self-righteous vengeance on the man who "stole" and "mistreated" the *object* of his affection, and realizing in his evil act of *passion* just how misguided and far from righteous he really was.
(2) Kelly on Iri -- It's less about rape, and more about intimacy in the act of killing. If Kelly just put a bullet into her head, or put her in a headlock and snapped her neck, it would be him killing her while being emotionally disconnected, which is his common mental trick to easily kill people. In this case, Kelly didn't do this. He choked Iri slowly and steadily, because she is the woman he loves and deserves more than being killed by a robot. And she deserved the time to curse him, and to hear his answer. If he is to kill her, he is going to burn that moment into his soul so that he can suffer for it forever.

So you're conceding the point then?

Then, how about consider that F/Z is a prequel, and due to plot constraints the proactive characters have to be men? Kirei, Kelly, Tokiomi... all men that have to be major characters in the story, as already set up by FSN. Kelly and Tokiomi have daughters... well, guess that means they need wives don't they? They are powerful and driven men, and the story revolves around them, as already set up by FSN... that means their wives act as support don't they?

Supporting Characters, yes. They aren't obligated to be satellites despite this. Supporting characters frequently have their own goals; narratively, being a support character doesn't mean that in-universe, your existence is support. Since we're talking about Urobuchi, Mami is a good example, f'rex.

Remember, Iri could have turned out VERY different. Instead, she is a brave, intelligent woman full of hope even though she should be the most depressed person in the cast.

Yes, because the woman who always smiles no matter how things get to try to motivate men (AKA actual humans) is totally not a sexist trope? XD

The context of that: the men were already set up by FSN as the principal players and key characters of this 4th Grail War.

4 of the Masters were already decided. Still had 3 more, you know.

She's Kelly "henchwoman"? Did you miss all the parts where she's practically shooting daggers into him with her eyes? She continues to work with Kelly not because she's female and therefore powerless/subservient, but because her obtaining the Grail takes priority over her feelings about her temporary mage Master.

None of which matters considering the end result is her compliance.

Finally, I'd have given Kiritsugu a personally and have him treat Iri in a way that makes it make sense for her to love him. It's not really hard, you know.

Or just not make her love him; that was hardly outside the realm of Urobuchi's options. But yes.

2 H-Games where almost all of the women are in a reality distortion field that make boring everymen the most attractive thing in ever? You sure?

I am aware there's other stuff, mind, but the only one I would really say you could possibly read that into is the novels with the other Shiki.

[MLai]

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Just because it shows that the character is despicable, which I'm not sure the intention was but the scene was so awfully directed that I have no idea how to even tell, doesn't mean that rape imagery isn't still putting a man in a position of power over a woman in ways that have a lot of extremely uncomfortable connotations.

Kamikasei: In both cases it's all about the male characters' motivations and feelings

Rape is not automatically a misogynistic theme in a story. If the rape is glorified, then yes ofc it is misogynistic. But in Kariya's case, it makes him out to be misguided and flawed, both to the reader and to himself. Yes, the act is a story device that further's his character, not hers. But that in itself is not misogynistic.

I get the impression you feel that every time a rape is used as a plot device, it's mandatory to explore the topic in a social light. No, it is not. Just like we don't have to ruminate about capital punishment every time a murderer is caught in a story.

Even if a rape in a story is used as a device to further the female victim's character (such as an origin story), it can still be misogynistic. All depends on how it's written. In Kariya's case, yes the rape is a story device for his "benefit", no it does not make him look good.

Kamikasei: Your own descriptions say loud and clear that these are examples of sexualized violence directed against women for the sake of male characters. That's fridging.

This definition is true. However, it is not gratuitous. Because, within the context of the plot and characters, how would you do it differently?
(1) Kariya is one of the proactive characters in the ensemble story. Aoi is his catalyst. Him rape-strangling her is the culmination of his tragedy; the Berserker-handling afterward was merely a footnote. What else could you want done? That his church scene with Aoi is removed? His tragedy would be less potent because of that change, for the sake of protecting the gender rights of a minor plot-device character.
(2) The entire story is leading to Kiri's ultimate loss -- Him finally having a difference of opinion with his wife who had thus far backed him all the way, and him having to murder her for it, like how he murdered everyone else in his path. That cannot change. The only way to modify it is to make it less "sexual". So he can shoot her. Or throw her out the window. Or bash her skull in with the lamp. None of those things are as "personal," it would have been merely another bump in his philosophical wrangling with the Grail voice.

He chose to make all the proactive roles that weren't defined by F/SN male too, nobody forced him to and there is no obvious internal logic requiring it.

Kamikasei: You list a number of things the writer could have done, but then immediately dismiss them, so I'm not sure what you're after here.

When I questioningly gender-bent some of the Masters, I was showing how those male characters becoming female would have made all the accusations of sexism actually true, if the current plot is not fundamentally rewritten.

So, Urobuchi wanted to write this story. He could have made all those Masters female, wrote the same story, and made himself look like a gigantic woman-hating pig. Instead, he made them male, and problem averted.

And I really don't care for the argument about breaking Kiritsugu down. There was nothing to break down, the guy had no personality and him breaking down was more or less an informed ability due to that.

Matter of opinion. I had no problems with his character development, within the limits imposed by an ensemble show.

Also, it took hell of a lot more to break him than to break Saber. She had to have a big, masculine dude go "you're doing it wrong". There's kind of a difference there, you know.

Kamikasei: we could have had any other female Servant or hero or leader in the story instead of having two male rulers telling Saber not only that she was wrong but that she's "a little girl" who they won't even acknowledge as a monarch at all.

That is a biased distortion of the plot just to make your own position look better. The entire story involving Saber is a process of breaking her down. The kings' banquet episode was only a part of it.

Except for her relationship with Iri (a woman btw), there was no part of her day where she isn't being told by the universe that she's doing it wrong. Nothing she does in accordance with her ideals turns out well, nothing she does in accordance with her ideals amounts to anything. This has nothing to do with her gender.

Alexander is not a paragon of sensitivity. If Artoria is male, Alex would have just called her something equally demeaning, probably a "wet-eared pup who needs to get laid" (probably by himself). As for Gil, he treats everyone as toys.

For that matter, I do think that a female Waver would have been a clear step up for the show. I mean, he's a sympathetic guy who gets to hang out with the coolest person around and becomes a better, more mature person thanks to it.

Surely you can't be serious. Waver being female would have just made you rage more, and hell I might have agreed.

As for what I'd do. I'd have made a couple of female masters. I don't know exactly what they'd be like and the show would have gone in a rather different direction if any masters were replaced with someone else, regardless of gender.

Exactly, it would have become a completely different story. Except Maiya. She could have easily been a young man of uncertain ethnicity, and the anime story would have been exactly the same.

I just read her bg info that you got from the novels (rape, miscarriage, etc). I agree that is completely unnecessary and kind of misogynistic. Maiya could have been male and still repeatedly raped, given that she was a child soldier in a country at war. But that bg info is not present in the anime so I don't fault the anime for it.

Finally, I'd have given Kiritsugu a personally and have him treat Iri in a way that makes it make sense for her to love him. It's not really hard, you know.

Hah, yeah, the loving parts of their relationship were reduced to the ending credits basically. It's like the script writers knew that they were shortchanging that part of their character development, so they put those loving pics at the end of every episode to beat it into our heads. I agree with you on that flaw, but that's not truly relevant to the topic of sexism.

Also you have to realize that what we see in F/Z is not the totality of their romantic relationship. If Kiri and Iri just met in episode 1, and then carried on like they did in the series, then yes you're correct where the F did their love come from. But, they came into the series already firmly in love and committed to the goal at hand. The series merely depicts how the events toward that goal which finally rips them apart (I consider the in-grail Iri to be the real person, or at least an extension of the real person... that's why Kiri unceremoniously shoots in-grail Ilya, but treats in-grail Iri differently).

RPGuru: Maiya could want to be a hero, like Kiritsugu. Irisviel could want a particular noble wish to come about.

Maiya could have been male or female, and he/she wouldn't have changed a tad in the anime. Because of that, her being female is not sexist.

Iri is something like 10 yrs old. Yes, it's true that her goal is completely a reflection of Kiri's. She admits as much that she doesn't know the outside world and thus cannot truly understand why Kiri wants what he wants. Her true wish, which comes out near the end of the series, is simply for a happy family. She wants Ilya to be happy (by not having to be a Grail), and Kiri to be happy (which is why she's supporting him in his wish that could solve all his problems). It's why she was harping so hard on Maiya to go find her roots after the War. That difference of innermost desire is why she and Kiri fundamentally split at the very end.

And please do not tell me that a young mother wanting happiness for her family is a sexist depiction of a woman. Just pre-empting, in case.

RPGuru: Yes, because the woman who always smiles no matter how things get to try to motivate men (AKA actual humans) is totally not a sexist trope? XD

If you do not really understand Iri's character (as I noted above), then yes you can easily jump to conclusions and label her as a trope of your choice.

RPGuru: 4 of the Masters were already decided. Still had 3 more, you know.

Yeah, I addressed that. The only way to change the Masters is to change the story. Because if we just gender-bend the existing Masters, Urobuchi comes off as a huge pig.

RPGuru: None of which matters considering the end result is her compliance.

Wrong. The context of a story is everything.
If the only thing that matters in a story is the tropes, then no more new stories need to be written ever again.

[Terraoblivion]

You know, there seems to be one simple thing you're missing here, MLai. Urobuchi did not have to tell this story, did not have to create these characters and for that matter he did not have to have every detail about them work out this way. He chose to do all those things and if the story he was trying to tell resulted in women existing as satellite characters, getting fridged and consistently failing he should have chosen to tell a different story. It doesn't stop being misogynistic because the plot you created demands it. In fact, it becomes more misogynistic in that case because you actively set up a world to be hostile to women and have misogyny as kind of a first principle to the story.

Mind you, I don't think there is anything inherent to the plot and characters that requires those scenes to work out how they did. I especially find backing for this in that Aoi and Grail-Iri's stranglings were some of the most inept in a show rife with scenes of such pure narm that I couldn't feel for the drama but was laughing at how bad the direction was. That suggests that the director had real trouble working out what to do with them. For that matter, Aoi suddenly becoming a complete moron just to provoke Kariya into strangling her seemed really forced and contrived, rather than something that flowed easily from past events.

Really, I have to ask...Did you just in your last post ask us how we'd change the story then dismiss what we said because it would change the story in this one? How does that even start to make sense? I mean it's too obvious and stupid to be a rhetorical trap and too nonsensical for you to really mean it, so what is it?

For that matter, just using rape as a source of drama is generally frowned upon as something that incompetent, insensitive hacks do. Using it as drama for the rapist is a whole new kind of insanity to me, essentially completely erasing the woman from the event and making it all about the man. Not just that, it asks us to identify with the perpetrator of a crime and ignore the victim as insignificant. Doing this thrice to female characters is ridiculously misogynistic regardless of whether the rape, metaphoric though it might be, is portrayed positively or negatively. It says that the woman's story or experience in being killed with rapey overtones is irrelevant, while also saying you shouldn't do it to women. It's brutal, pointless and extremely othering. There's a reason why people are advised not to use rape or rape imagery as a plot device without very clear goals about what they're trying to say about the topic.

Oh, and thank you for telling me what I believe. I'm so happy that a man I barely know can put the world in order for me like that. It really shows that I should trust your words on the topic of misogyny, after all you're so sensitive...Seriously, if I say Waver as a girl would be an overall step up in the portrayal of female characters in the show, it's because I believe it. As weak and reliant on Rider as Waver is, we'd still have gotten at least one major female character with agency, who doesn't have a story of being screwed over by guys and who even experiences growth by the end. It still wouldn't have been anywhere near as good as just telling a different story with the characters who weren't defined by F/SN being different. So stop ****ing telling me what I believe and try to respect me as a thinking person who can make her own decisions.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Thank you, everyone in this thread, for successfully killing any desire I had to ever watch Fate/Zero. That should free up a lot of time.

I guess if I actually want to experience anything Nasu-related besides an LP, I should shell out for a processor that can handle 3D emulation a PSP and a copy of Fate/Extra. That at least seems to have a pretty stock JRPG plot, albeit as written by M. Night Shyamalan.

[MLai]

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He chose to do all those things and if the story he was trying to tell resulted in women existing as satellite characters, getting fridged and consistently failing he should have chosen to tell a different story.

I do not take the bolded part as a forgone conclusion; I don't agree with you that is the case with #1, and I agree #2 and #3 happened but it's not misogynistic but rather a part of the story. Taking examples out of context makes them look bad (women die in rapey manner, Saber failing) but I've already explained my understanding of the context of those situations.

I especially find backing for this in that Aoi and Grail-Iri's stranglings were some of the most inept in a show rife with scenes of such pure narm

Also disagree here. Already covered.

For that matter, Aoi suddenly becoming a complete moron just to provoke Kariya into strangling her seemed really forced and contrived,

Just as RPGuru with Iri, you fail to understand Aoi's character and only stuff her into a distasteful Western trope of your choice, and that is why her behavior seems inexplicable to you.

You think she has no personality/agency/brain, and that's why she's complacent with losing Sakura, and that's why her sudden outburst seems contrived. Sora has already explained the Jpnese mindset in this woman, and it is not a Jpnese-female-only mindset, just to make that clear.

If you accept that about Aoi, you'd see the reason she completely broke down is because she'd been barely holding her misery in check. When she confronted Kariya, the first thing out of her mouth is "Sakura" even though Sakura is completely irrelevant in that situation. She does think about her daughter all the time; she's just not telling you about it all the time. You should be used to that aspect of Eastern characterization/storytelling by now, if you watch any amount of anime or Eastern shows.

Really, I have to ask...Did you just in your last post ask us how we'd change the story then dismiss what we said because it would change the story in this one? How does that even start to make sense?

I asked because I was curious, and sometimes when ppl say "could've been done better" they have something specific in mind. And then you just said something general. Nothing wrong with that, but then there was nothing for me to reply to. But then the discussion drifted onto a related point, so I jumped off from there.

I'll address your forum attitude in a min.

For that matter, just using rape as a source of drama is generally frowned upon as something that incompetent, insensitive hacks do.

"Generally" being the operative word. To attempt it in a story is not 100% failure, merely challenging. Depends on the context, and the storytelling skill. For Kariya and Kiri, I feel it was done correctly.

Using it as drama for the rapist is a whole new kind of insanity to me, essentially completely erasing the woman from the event and making it all about the man.

So basically this is a story device that is anathema to you, 100% taboo, no exceptions. That amounts to personal censure. I'm of the opinion that any story angle can be done right. Some have more challenging or controversial starting points, but I'm open to the attempt.

What about movies about serial killers? It's all about the killer. The victims are just chalk lines on the ground.

When I was a teen, my parents forbade me from watching Natural Born Killers (I've been watching R-rated movies for years by that point). I'm still pissed about that.

Not just that, it asks us to identify with the perpetrator of a crime and ignore the victim as insignificant.

WHAAAAA??? You mean those scenes made you identify with Kariya and Kiri??
Iri's final scene was actually the first time she displayed "agency" that didn't line up with Kiri's. Not insignificant final character development.

There's a reason why people are advised not to use rape or rape imagery as a plot device without very clear goals about what they're trying to say about the topic.

I agree with the advice. As a hobbyist storyteller I have much experience with that subject. And I also think Urobuchi did have clear appropriate goals with those scenes.

Oh, and thank you for telling me what I believe -snip-

Getting into a hissyfit against someone who has not been provoking you, only detracts from your own credibility. With the attitude you're displaying, I'm only more convinced that your judgement is hopelessly colored by your emotional bias. So unless you think your internet anger hurts me somehow, I don't know what you're trying to achieve.

These are my exact words which somehow set you off:
Surely you can't be serious. Waver being female would have just made you rage more, and hell I might have agreed.

And somehow you reached this, by my words above:
So stop ****ing telling me what I believe and try to respect me as a thinking person who can make her own decisions.

Sheesh, calm down.

@ Nerdorama:
Do you mean that because an internet argument ruins your appetite, or because you think F/Z is a women-fridge fest?

If the former, then damn man/woman harden up some. You'll miss a lot of good stuff that way. Obviously the better something is, the more discussion it would engender.

If the latter, then that means you find the fridge theorists' arguments to be more convincing. In that case, then yeah don't watch F/Z. Because your perspective is already colored in that shade to begin with, and that's all you'd be thinking about the whole show.

[NeonBlack]

@ Nerdorama:
Do you mean that because an internet argument ruins your appetite, or because you think F/Z is a women-fridge fest?

I'm not Nerdo, but I find myself about to board the same boat, and it's for neither of the two reasons you listed. It has more to do with the fact that everyone involved has been posting damn unmarked spoilers about the whole series, especially about the ending, since the start of this friggin' discussion. I guess I can consider myself lucky for already knowing the general picture of what happened in the final 5-6 episodes of F/Z before this whole debacle, but seriously.

I thought that was heavily frowned upon in this thread, but seeing as everyone seems to be happily joining in the spoilfest, I guess that policy changed sometime without me getting the memo. Duly noted, in any case.

[RPGuru1331]

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Rape is not automatically a misogynistic theme in a story.

Using rape as generic trauma, and especially removing the actual victim from mattering in it is though.

Yes, the act is a story device that further's his character, not hers. But that in itself is not misogynistic.

Women only mattering as props in men's stories is pretty misogynist, bro. You're not getting the memo here.

Because, within the context of the plot and characters, how would you do it differently?

Change the plot to not rely on reducing women to props. So many options here. FFS, Aoi could have been from a normal Mage family and fought for her daughter using the same mechanism Kariya did; it's not like the punk needed a Crest, just Circuits.

That cannot change

Is that so? I was under the impression Urobuchi wrote it himself, rather than transcribing it out of Plato's Cave.

The only way to modify it is to make it less "sexual". So he can shoot her.

I'm still not sure why he didn't in the first place. It's Kiritsugu. The dude is repeatedly stated to be a pragmatist with a habit of just shooting people. Not only is strangling unnecessarily sexualized, it's out of character.

When I questioningly gender-bent some of the Masters, I was showing how those male characters becoming female would have made all the accusations of sexism actually true, if the current plot is not fundamentally rewritten.

Not only could the plot have been fundamentally rewritten, but you only asserted this; so long as female Ryuunusoke is not a vamp, there is nothing particularly misogynist about a serial killer woman, for instance. And as cliche'd as mothers fighting for their daughters might, *might*, arguably be, it isn't nearly as defaulted to misogynist as random dude doing it. You're also forgetting the potential for, you know, female Servants =.=. Take Boudica or Tomoe Gozen as Rider, with the same WAver-following-Rider dynamic, f'rex.

That is a biased distortion of the plot just to make your own position look better. The entire story involving Saber is a process of breaking her down. The kings' banquet episode was only a part of it.

The King's Banquet is an incredibly weak version of it. Alexander and Gilgamesh's jerkery should not be an unknown quantity to Saber. "You should have been more like me", to a woman who categorically rejected that kind of king in life, working is *dumb*. That could have been done so much more effectively by forcing her to look at *virtuous* kings (or at least, kings legendary for their virtue, if not necessarily actually virtuous) and making her come up short. Which should be friggin' trivial considering Charlemagne was her next door neighbour and predated her.

But that's not what happened; jerks who she knew are jerks said "You shoulda been a jerk, bro". And this was shown as 'correct'. It's not like the ARturian legends lacked for unrighteous kings she beat up, you know. Hell, you could *STILL* show that overall plot with the king's banquet, with Saber rebuffing the jerk kings; it better establishes who she was before doubt set in.

Alexander is not a paragon of sensitivity. If Artoria is male, Alex would have just called her something equally demeaning, probably a "wet-eared pup who needs to get laid" .

That isn't actually equally demeaning. Because it isn't possible to say something equally demeaning to a dude, on the grounds that he is a dude. Because being a dude is a positive thing.

As for Gil, he treats everyone as toys.

No, he treats everyone else as *mongrels*. He treated Saber as a *possession* (albeit one he didn't have yet).

If you do not really understand Iri's character (as I noted above), then yes you can easily jump to conclusions and label her as a trope of your choice.

That was your statement, you know, that I put into a larger context. But for saying that I 'don't understand her', you're not actually giving me a reason why she doesn't fit that trope.

Maiya could have been male or female,

And having done some research, I'd also like to point out that Maiya is hardly genderless. As this wiki page points out her background includes multiple rapes, a miscarriage and sleeping regularly with Kiritsugu.

No. No she could not have been. At least, not without the kind of rewrite we're discussing for other characters.

And please do not tell me that a young mother wanting happiness for her family is a sexist depiction of a woman. Just pre-empting, in case.

Would it be inconvenient to point out that mothers are too frequently reduced to family only, whereas fathers are not then?

Iri is something like 10 yrs old. Yes, it's true that her goal is completely a reflection of Kiri's. She admits as much that she doesn't know the outside world and thus cannot truly understand why Kiri wants what he wants.

Funny how she's 10 when Ilya's old enough to at least have some manner of worldliness, isn't it? Again, not a platonic ideal.

Yeah, I addressed that.

You asserted that you have, yes.

The only way to change the Masters is to change the story. Because if we just gender-bend the existing Masters, Urobuchi comes off as a huge pig.

So you're saying he comes off the same either way then?

Wrong. The context of a story is everything.

Heh. Funny that you say taht while you ignore broader cultural contexts, really. Hint: results matter also.

[Terraoblivion]

Let me get this straight...if something is part of the story it can't be misogynistic? I imagine that would also apply to racism, homophobia, religious bigotry and similar. Now please tell me how any event could possibly happen in a narrative that isn't part of the story? I mean the entire narrative and all events in it is what the story is. You could say the same about everything from Birth of a Nation to Alexander Nevsky. For that matter, you could try to claim it about Der Ewige Jude if you felt like it or old 19th century adventure novels where entire tribes of "cannibals" get mowed down by heroic white men. You probably wouldn't, though. Of course these examples are more extreme, but your idea of it just being the story doesn't allow for any gradations of that kind.

As for the bit about Aoi just being Japanese cultured. You do know about how women were portrayed in 19th century European and American literature, right? And what kind of female roles were common as far as the 1950s? There's ample precedence for this kind of thing in western culture as well, it's hardly something unique to those mysterious Japanese or whatever you seem to be thinking. For that matter, it's hardly a dominant or even common attitude in Japan, where it is pretty much only seen in some male-oriented pop culture and is in fact a major part of why otakus have such low status. Also, I don't really see why it being from a foreign culture would have an impact on whether her portrayal was misogynistic or not, it's not like Japanese people aren't humans like us. If portrayals like that were common over there it'd just mean that Japanese culture in general was misogynistic, not that Aoi's portrayal wasn't.

As for your ideas about my emotional state, I'm afraid we just fell victim of the problem of reading tone online. The tone I heard in my head as I wrote them was rather snarky, while the one you heard reading it appears to have been shrill bordering on hysteria. Maybe it would be worth it for you to think about why that is what you immediately assumed. I mean apart from snark and emotional breakdown, righteous anger, feigned anger for rhetorical effect and trolling all spring to mind as possibilities for what was behind it, yet you immediately latched on to the one that ties into a common misogynistic idea, that of the irrationally emotional woman.

Edit: Discussion really doesn't say much either way about the quality of a work. A vocal minority hating something that has stunning critical and public reception can still lead to fierce debates. To use an example that has already come up, Madoka was the most popular show last year and had a stunning critical reception, yet loud debates about its quality raged for months. Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is another example of the same. Fallout 3 could be an example too. On the other hand there are plenty of examples of the opposite like Twilight, Arcanum, romantic comedies or Left Behind. Or what about things that only get praise and indifference, but never outright dislike such as the original Matrix movie or the original Star Wars trilogy or early Simpsons?

[banthesun]

Would there be anyone out there who enjoyed the second half of Mawaru Penguindrum and be able to explain what it meant for them? I loved the first half of the series to death, but after the Penguin Queen died(?) I found it, well, disappointing. I didn't enjoy the constant reveals, and the somewhat patchiness of character interaction felt pretty unsatisfactory too. Also, it didn't even feel like the more abstract storytelling even paid off in the end...

Here's the messages I ended up getting from the series:
Children DO carry the guilt of their parents.
No one is allowed to sacrifice themselves for Momoka. Momoka's allowed to sacrifice herself for everyone else, and everyone else is allowed to sacrifice themselves for other people, but no one's allowed to sacrifice themselves for Momoka.

I'd really love to enjoy the whole of this show, so perhaps someone with a different interpretation can help me see the second half in a more favourable light.