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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this one)

    The Invoker


    Divine Magic is irrevocably linked to deities in the minds of most mortals. While this is an easy assumption for men to make, with churches and their agents being the primary wielders of divine magic this is not the case. Deities may give their clerics knowledge of divine magics and instruct them on it's use it is ultimately the clerics belief in their faith and deity that allows them to cast the spell, not the deity itself. Thus, some who are less faithful have gained the ability to use divine magic. Some clerics use their belief in an ideal or philosophy to power their spellcasting while archivists use their belief in the power of the knowledge of the divine that they gain. Even these spellcasters, however fail to realize that their magic comes not from their philosophy or collected knowledge but rather their belief in it's power.

    There are however, a select few who have come to realize the true nature of divine magic. Known to the planes as Invokers, these powerful divine-mages channel divine magic just as the servants of deities, philosopher-clerics and Archivists yet unlike them realize that it is not the outside power that grant them their powers, but their belief and sheer force of personality. The ultimate incarnations of true personal powers, Invokers stand far apart from all other spellcasters. While other spellcasters arcane and divine rely on outside sources to practice their magic Invokers simply tell reality to sit down, shut up and give them what they want because they believe they can.

    Adventures: Invokers being a diverse group adventure for almost every reason under the sun. Good aligned invokers often find themselves called to a noble cause such as defeating a great villain, helping the needy and weak or liberating mankind. Evil aligned Invokers may adventure to gain even greater power to forward a despicable plot that they seek to move to fruition. No matter what the reason, though, Invokers tend to be passionate individuals and as a result usually adventure for some kind of personal cause or goal as appose to just the acquisition of loot.

    Characteristics: While one may assume that casting magic off of pure belief is as easy as simply willing a cure light wounds spell into exsistance, it's actually not. While Invoker's magic is powered through belief, their art is very much one with strict rules and dicipline. Simply wantonly invoking divine powers cannot produce proper results as not all souls can handle channeling that much divine energy and trying to could lead to death or worse. Thus, in order to channel divine energy properly the Invoker learns to strengthen their mind and soul, condition themselves to be vessels of divine power and use specific rituals that allow them to use their divine power safely and effectively.

    As a result the path of the invoker is one that takes the utmost devotion and training, and as a result while a powerful divine spellcaster the invoker has little time to train their body and/or acquire a diverse set of skills. The payoff for their dedication however is great, and for all the energy they put in the Invoker becomes a being of pure divine power, able to invoke divine energies to bend reality to their whim, destroy enemies and aid allies. In addition to their divine magics, Invokers also can influence undead creatures in the same manner as clerics and also have the amazing ability to convert their traditional spells to more exotic abilities obtained through their access to divine domains that represent whatever powers they believe they exert power over.

    Alignment: Invoking the divine through belief is not a practice that in and of itself has any moral stigma and as a result Invokers of all alignments exist. Good Invokers tend to develop their own powers and use their belief in their ability to be a vessel of divine might to bring out the best in others. They use their great power to aid the poor, help the weak, right wrongs and fight evil. Some good Invokers will be very much exalted characters. While they believe greatly in their divine powers they see their craft as one that comes from years of study, trial and error by previous invokers and a gift to the world and thus despite using belief alone to channel divine powers they act as humbly and nobly as any other exalted figure. Some good aligned invokers may suffer from the pride that one would expect would come as a requisite for their crafts though good invokers of this breed tend to still do good and often act as a vocal and strong inspiration and example to others.

    Invokers of evil alignments on the other hand tend to be the biggest egomaniacs in all the multiverse. Evil invokers many times believe that they are in fact in a sense deities themselves, and with their ability to use just their belief to cast divine magic, influence undead and even gain power over divine portfolio elements(domains) they may not be all that far away from the truth. Ruthless and power-hungry, evil invokers seek to obtain ultimate power and usually have overblown goals such as multiversal domination and/or ascension to true godhood. Evil Invokers also like the flaunt their powers and show the world just how great they are. Their favored method? Excessive their abilities on those weaker then them. Domination and/or destruction are as much a way to satisfy an evil invoker's pride as they are a way for him to forward his nefarious plots.

    As far as the Law/Chaos axis is concerned, Invokers fall all over the place. Lawful Invokers tend to take the dedication their art requires and transpose it onto the other aspects of their life. Chaotic Invokers may see authority and tradition as things that seek to limit what they and/or others can do and perhaps even a direct threat to their brand of magic, especially when it comes to established religions that may see their magics as a thread to their hold on divine magic.

    Religion: Invokers tend to be a controversial topic among the faiths of the multiverse. Some religions that preach open-ness and tolerance, or perhaps just want to gain powerful agents welcome invokers into their congregations with open arms, treating them as any other member of their faith. Some religions, however, see the invokers as a direct threat to their power. With invokers going around being a shining example of how one need not turn to a deity to obtain divine power some faiths worry that the Invokers are a threat to their power and influence that would steer people away from the church. Such faiths may just speak harsh words against invokers and end things there or in some cases send church agents and inquisitors to actively hunt Invokers and label them blasphemous heretics.

    Background: The craft of the Invoker is not one that is widely avalivble to the general public, especially in areas where more intolerant and zealous churches hold power. As a result most invokers hardly come from average backgrounds. An Invoker's background is, almost always dependent on the setting, however. In some worlds invokers may be part of a secret society that keeps their craft hidden. Characters from such settings would obviously have a backstory detailing how they came to enter said society. In other settings the craft may be passed between teacher and student in which case an Invoker's backstory would include both how they found their mentor and perhaps their training under them. No matter what the setting, though, the craft of the Invoker is one that is exotic and based in an often hidden and denied truth, and as a result your Invoker's backstory should include an explanation for how they realized this truth.

    Races: Invokers can come from any race and indeed their numbers are among the most diverse. However, humans with their inquisitive nature, great pride, ambition and cultural focus on individual achievement are the race that is most naturally drawn to the way of the invoker and thus produces more Invokers then other races.

    Other Classes: While Invokers possess great divine power, they too know that they can't do it all on their own. As a result many invokers tend to value their teammates greatly, especially more hardly, martial team mates who can keep enemies from entangling them in physical combat and cunning, individuals with the wide range of skills they lack. Invokers also value ally spellcasters as despite their own powerful casting abilities wizards, sorcerers, druids and other casters tend to have spells and knowledge beyond the scope of the Invokers and thus make a useful addition to the Invoker's team. In general, with their naturally high charisma Invokers tend to get along with members of all classes well enough.

    Role: While the Invoker has access to the whole cleric list the class hardly plays like a traditional cleric. With a poor BAB, a d4 HD and class features that more or less confine them to robes Invokers are poor melee combatants. However, to make up for their physical weakness the Invoker is granted greater spellcasting power. With the ability to obtain many spells that most clerics will never be able to cast via divine magician and all the extra domains they obtain an Invoker plays out very much like a "divine wizard," standing in back and aiding allies rather then bloodying themselves in melee like the more martial clerics.

    Unlike a wizard though, the Invoker has no spellbook and no need to hunt for scrolls, making them at base more versatile. In fact, with their spontaneous domain casting, limited wizard spells and the whole cleric list the Invoker is perhaps the tier 1 class that can get the most versatility for the least amount of work. The wizard and archivist in the end will be more versatile then the invoker, but that comes with having to find and acquire, often with gold, new spells...something the Invoker need never bother themselves with.

    Of course, unlike the wizard and archivist, the Invoker, with it's already pitiful skill points per-level and practically no use for int will most definitely fall behind those two classes in terms of knowledge and sheer amount of skills. However, despite this Invokers have a fairly solid list of class skills and with enough intelligence the use of Diplomacy and bluff can make them good party faces, especially with their naturally high charisma scores and enchantment spells such as Charm Person to back them up.

    Abilities: Charisma is, without a doubt, the Invoker's most important stat. It determines what spells they can cast and how powerful their spells are. Charisma can also help the invoker be useful as a party face when combined with the diplomacy and bluff skills. In addition, an Invoker will want a good constitution score as having a high constitution will help them make up for their d4 HD. A good dexterity can also be of use in increasing the Invoker's usually low AC and making their ranged attacks better. A good intelligence score may also be something an invoker strives to have as a good int can provide the Invoker with much needed skill points.

    Adaptation: While the default fluff of this class has it casting off of pure belief rather then from a deity, if your setting dose not support this fluff the class can easily be re-fluffed as the cloth-wearing priest archetype or perhaps somebody born with innate divine ability. Sources of the latter could include being the mortal reincarnation of a dead god, being part of a bloodline that has origins with a mortal who had a relationship with a god, having some kind of divine power sealed within you at birth or some other reason. The mechanics of this class are so general that it could be refluffed into almost anything allowing it to be worked into settings in which belief-based divine magic dose not exist with some creative refluffing.

    Class Features

    Alignment: Any

    Hit Die: d4

    Starting Gold: As Wizard

    Class Skills: Bluff(Cha), Concentration(Con), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Heal(Wis), Knowledge(Arcana)(Int), Knowledge(History)(Int), Knowledge(Religion)(Int), Knowledge(The Planes)(Int) Profession(Wis), Spellcraft(Int)

    Skill Points at first level: (+2 Int Modifier) x4
    Skill Points at each additional level: 2+ Int Modifier

    Proficiencies: Invokers are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield.

    The Invoker
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    | Domains, Spontaneous Domain I, Turn/Rebuke Undead, Divine Magician|3|1

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    ||4|2|-

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    ||4|2|1|-

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Bonus Domain|5|3|2|-|-

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Spontainous Domain II|5|3|2|1|-|-

    6th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    ||5|3|3|2|-|-|-

    7th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    ||6|4|3|2|1|-|-|-

    8th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    ||6|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    ||6|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-

    10th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Soul of Great Power |6|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-

    11th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    ||6|5|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-

    12th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    ||6|5|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-

    13th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    ||6|5|5|4|4|3|2|1|-|-

    14th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |Bonus Domain|6|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|-|-

    15th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |Spontainous Domain III|6|5|5|5|4|4|3|2|1|-

    16th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    ||6|5|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|-

    17th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    ||6|5|5|5|5|4|4|3|2|1

    18th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    ||6|5|5|5|5|4|4|3|3|2

    19th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    ||6|5|5|5|5|5|4|4|3|3

    20th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |The Divine Soul Unleashed|6|5|5|5|5|5|4|4|4|4[/table]

    Spellcasting: The Invoker casts divine spells drawn from the Cleric Spell List. Like a Cleric the Invoker must prepare his spells but requires no spellbook to do so. The Invoker, also like a cleric automatically knows all spells on his spell list(cleric) of all levels he can cast and when he gains access to a new spell level he automatically learns all spells of that level from his list. To cast a spell a Invoker must have a charisma score equal to 10+ the spell’s level and the DC for his spells are equal to 10 + the spell’s level + his Cha modifier. An Invoker receives bonus spells for a high charisma just as a wizard receives bonus spells for a high intelligence. Unlike a Cleric’s divine magic the magic of a Invoker functions in a slightly different manner. The first is that a Invoker's spells which would normally require a Holy Symbol do not. Instead, the Invoker may use a mundane or magical staff as the “holy symbol” for all spells which would require one. In addition, the Invoker’s spells have a more pronounced somatic component and as a result they suffer spell failure in the same manner as arcane casters while in any armor heavier then robes.

    Domains: At 1st level the Invoker gains access to two cleric domains of his or her choice. He/she gain the granted powers of those Domains as well as access to the spells of those domains. Unlike a cleric, however, the Invoker has no domain spell-slots. Instead he adds all domain spells to his Cleric spell-list and they may be cast and prepared normally as any other spell he knows. If the Invoker chooses any alignment Domains they cannot be oppose to his or her alignment.(So a Lawful good Invoker could not chose the Evil and Chaos Domains.) Any and all bonus domains that the Invoker gains function exactly as these two domains(so they would add the spells from bonus domains to their own class spell list and treat them as all their normal spells.)

    Spontaneous Domain I: Unlike a cleric the Invoker cannot spontaneously cast heal or inflict spells. Instead at 1st level she may chose one of his Domains. From that level onward the Invoker may expend a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a spell of the same level from the chosen Domain. He can also cast these spells as if they where under the effects of one or more metamagic feats he has, though to do that he must expend a prepared spell who’s level is equal to the level of the spell he wishes to spontaneously cast if it had been prepared with all metamagic feats he wants to apply to it. Spontaneously casting a spell in this manner takes same amount of time it would for a sorcerer to cast a spell to which he has applied a metamagic feat to.

    Turn/Rebuke Undead: The Invoker learns to use his divine power to effect undead in similar ways to a Cleric. At 1st level the Invoker gains the ability to Turn or Rebuke undead as a cleric of his class level a number of times per-day equal to 1+ his Cha modifier. Evil Invokers Rebuke undead while good Invokers Turn them instead. A Neutral Invoker may chose whether he wants to Turn Undead or Rebuke Undead at 1st level but once made that decision cannot be changed.

    Divine Magician: At 1st level and every level at which the Invoker gains access to a new spell-level the Invoker may choose one spell from the Sorc/Wiz spell list and add it to his cleric spell list. This spell is treated in an identical manner to all spells he normally possesses and can be cast and prepared in the same ways as all other spells he possesses. This ability, however, only applies to levels in the Invoker class.(So if an Invoker took a PrC that advances his divine spellcasting he would not get any new Divine Magician Spells from that PrC.)

    Bonus Domain: At level 4 the Invoker gains access to another Cleric Domain of his choice. This domain cannot be oppose to his alignment.

    Spontaneous Domain II: At level 5 the Invoker choses a domain he possesses that he cannot yet spontaneously cast from. From that level onward the Invoker may expend a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a spell of the same level from the chosen Domain. He can also cast these spells as if they where under the effects of one or more metamagic feats he has, though to do that he must expend a prepared spell who’s level is equal to the level of the spell he wishes to spontaneously cast if it had been prepared with all metamagic feats he wants to apply to it. Spontaneously casting a spell in this manner takes same amount of time it would for a sorcerer to cast a spell to which he has applied a metamagic feat to.

    Soul of Great Power: As the Invoker increases in power he becomes such a force of Divine power that his very soul burns with holy(or unholy) energies. At level 10 the Invoker automatically gains the Fire-Souled Template. He dose not acquire any LA from possessing this template and dose not gain any of it’s Ability Score bonuses or the leadership feat. However, if he already possesses the leadership feat or at any time gains it, he still receives the +2 bonus to his leadership score the template grants

    Bonus Domain: At level 14 the Invoker gains access to another Cleric Domain of his choice. This domain cannot be oppose to his alignment.

    Spontaneous Domain III: At level 15 the Invoker chose a domain he possesses that he cannot yet spontaneously cast from. From that level onward the Invoker may expend a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a spell of the same level from the chosen Domain. He can also cast these spells as if they where under the effects of one or more metamagic feats he has, though to do that he must expend a prepared spell who’s level is equal to the level of the spell he wishes to spontaneously cast if it had been prepared with all metamagic feats he wants to apply to it. Spontaneously casting a spell in this manner takes same amount of time it would for a sorcerer to cast a spell to which he has applied a metamagic feat to.

    The Divine Soul Unleashed: At the pinnacle of his power the Invoker becomes such a force of divine might that he is transformed into an avatar of divinity, a mortal being that is just one step below true godhood. At level 20 the Invoker, if good, gains the Saint template. If Evil, the Invoker gains an altered version of the Saint Template known as the "corrupt saint" that is listed below. Neutral Invokers may choose between either the saint or “corrupt saint” template but once the choice is made it cannot be changed. The Invoker dose not acquire any LA from this template but dose acquire it’s ability score bonuses.



    Spoiler
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    ”Corrupt Saint” Template:

    The “Corrupt Saint” Template is in all ways identical to the Saint Template except with the following changes:

    Holy Touch becomes “Unholy Touch.” Effects Good creatures instead of evil ones and deals Unholy damage.

    Casts Slash Tongue, Unnerving Gaze, Inflict Minor Wounds and Bane At-Will instead of Guidance, Resistance, Virtue and Bless at will.

    The Protective Aura counts acts as a double strength Circle of Protection Against Good and Lesser Globe of Invulnerability as appose to a Double Strength Circle of Protection against evil and Lesser Globe of Invulnerability.

    All DR/Evil the character receives instead becomes DR/Good.


    __________________________________________________ _______

    IMPORTANT NOTES: This class is a BIG WIP and I know it's broken. Part of that was intended as the balance point for this class was Tier 1. However, I also know I am not the best homebrewer when it comes to crunch and as a result I want your help. I want this class to remain at Tier 1 yet I do not want it to be so broken that no DM would ever allow it. That is where you come in. I need help making this class a Tier 1 yet not SO overpowered that DMs who allow other tier 1s(wizards, clerics, druids ect..) would auto-deny this.....so, can anybody help me out in that field?
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-05-27 at 05:57 PM.
    Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika

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    Level 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    The biggest thing I could imagine a DM knee-jerking at is free templates. I don't know where Fire-Souled is from, but I think Saint is quite strong. That said, it's a capstone going into epic levels so meh. At that point there are bigger things for a DM to worry about.

    Beyond that it doesn't seem overpowered or broken when put side by side with other T1s. It's a sort-of wizard with cleric casting and some class features that a cleric could get stronger than from PrCing. Adding domain and one sor/wiz spell per spell level is an interesting quirk, but as long as the player isn't actively trying to break the game I don't think that's particularly overpowering either; again, it's something PrCs (and Archivists) can do and do better.

    If I were your DM, I'd let this fly as is. The spellcasting isn't technically any stronger than that of any other T1, the base numbers are a wizard, and Cha-based casting is generally the weakest.
    Last edited by Aricandor; 2011-05-27 at 01:28 PM.
    Duuuude. I just, like, totally divided by zero!

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Maho-Tsukai's Avatar

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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Yeah, the class was actually partly meant to be a sort of mid-ground between an Archivist and Cleric. You have the cleric on one hand who has very good melee(or skills if cloistered) and very good but *somewhat* limited spellcasting that comes with the benefit of not relying on your DM to get the spells you want, the archivist who has weak melee and the most versatile casting in the game IF your DM is generous with scrolls and spell..err..prayerbooks and then this class which is kinda like the archivist in the sense it plays more like a wizard and has versatile spellcasting but at the same time functions differently as it is not reliant on finding spells in order to be versatile. If an Invoker wants a wiz/sorc spell on his list he'll get it....the archivist however would have to hunt for it and may not even get it if the DM dose not feeling like giving that spell out...

    So, potentially the archivist(and most definitely the wizard) are more versatile but in practice this class ends up being more versatile then either of them in a more "realistic" situation aka not every location has a Scroll-o-Mart....and this is still tier 1 as the cleric list + prepared casting+ the ability to cherry-pick wiz/sorc list spells all make it tier 1....
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-05-27 at 02:07 PM.
    Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika

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    Level 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...

    Strength- 11
    Dexterity- 13
    Constitution- 12
    Intelligence- 15
    Wisdom- 17
    Charisma- 16

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    as a DM i would allow this one as is. the saint/corrupted saint is a nice touch, but at 20th level it's certainly not anything earth-shattering.

    But what would you do if the player wanted the saint template earlier, and went through the process of getting it legitimately? Something simple like that throws it all off. (Unless they were okay with getting nothing at 20th level.)

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Not sure about that...thought this is a WIP. I went for the saint/corrupted saint idea because I could not easily create my own "divine" feeling template and as a result looked for an already existing template for the job and the saint fit like a glove.

    If you have a better idea though, please be my guest and suggest it. This class is very open to change as of now though the most important thing is that it stays cha-based , stays tier 1, stays divine and keeps the cleric list as it's base spell list.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-05-27 at 02:39 PM.
    Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika

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    Level 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...

    Strength- 11
    Dexterity- 13
    Constitution- 12
    Intelligence- 15
    Wisdom- 17
    Charisma- 16

    To find out your D&D self take this quiz today!

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    i guess i should ask, whats a WIP?

    i'm new to the lingo here...

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Quote Originally Posted by wyrmsbane2 View Post
    i guess i should ask, whats a WIP?

    i'm new to the lingo here...
    Google says it's either some company's stock label, or a Work in Progress. Up to you to figure out which is more relevant.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Its a conspiracy for WIP to take over the website, I tell ya!

    Also, dang. This is pretty powerful, I must say. That said, I am guessing that, especially having mentioned tier 1, you meant for it anyways, in which case it looks nice, and I find the template ideas very flavorful.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    looks good for a tier one. i would tell my players if they wanted saint earlier thats fine, but they'll have to deal with nothing at 20th.
    it would be more advantageous for them to wait for it anyway...

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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    I'd say this is stronger than the Cleric.

    It's effectively a Cleric with 1 less spell/day at every level, and then a wayy bigger spell list. The stuff that makes Clerics super overpowered (DMM Persist, I'm looking at you...) still exists, but now the class has more options for it.

    I don't know how to tone the class down without really nerfing its most important class feature (thar spells), but right now I can't say it's on par with the Cleric and Archivist other than the fact that it's better than all non-T1 classes.

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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Well, he did say in the title that it's a tier 1 class, so it's meant to have campaign-breaking potential. I think it does what it's supposed to do. Use at your own discretion, just like any other tier 1 class.

    Personally, I don't like the capstone because I think forcing a neutral Invoker to choose between spontaneously becoming a paragon of Good or Evil is silly. In fact, considering that your fluff indicates that Good/Evil Invokers take their alignment to the extreme and you don't make a single sentence for neutrals, why not say that Invokers can't be neutral?

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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    That may actually work with fluff since the class uses pure belief and strength of conviction to cast...though that dose give me an interesting idea for alternate fluff about the class getting it's casting directly from the forces of good and/or evil as appose to the gods...since this is a WIP the fluff can certainly be changed and the saint template dose go well with that kind of fluff. Perhaps change the fire-souled template at lv.10 back into the zone of consecrate/desecrate the prototype of this class that I posted a while back to play up the good/evil theme if I decide to take it in that direction?
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Well, he did say in the title that it's a tier 1 class, so it's meant to have campaign-breaking potential. I think it does what it's supposed to do. Use at your own discretion, just like any other tier 1 class.
    If that ideology were OK, then Pun-Pun and Druids should be on the same level. This needs to get balanced to other T1 classes (as funny as that sounds), and the Cleric is a great comparison for this guy.

    hat may actually work with fluff since the class uses pure belief and strength of conviction to cast...though that dose give me an interesting idea for alternate fluff about the class getting it's casting directly from the forces of good and/or evil as appose to the gods...since this is a WIP the fluff can certainly be changed and the saint template dose go well with that kind of fluff. Perhaps change the fire-souled template at lv.10 back into the zone of consecrate/desecrate the prototype of this class that I posted a while back to play up the good/evil theme if I decide to take it in that direction?
    That would work quite well, but if we're talking about the Saint template... well, what's its counterpart?

    In other news, Clerics are pretty much all "REPRESENT OUR GOD!" What would make Invokers different?

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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    The difference is thus: Clerics seek to serve their deities. Invokers seek to become themselves like deities. Basically they do not worship gods for their power but rather invoke divine power through pure belief and force of personality, OR they invoke the very cosmic forces of good and evil themselves to channel divine power..either way their mastery over the divine magics they invoke eventually allows them to become an avatar of their alignment that is as close to a "god" that a mortal can get. Not sure which would be a better fit but I am leaning to making them more alignment-paragons then the other idea as it seems to fit the crunch better though I want opinions.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Yeah, this is actually significantly stronger than a cleric. Spontaneous casting from 3 of his 4 domains, full cleric turning, and two different templates with no LA, one of which being the saint template without needing to waste 3 feats on exalted feats at the end of it.

    Something's really gotta give. This class has basically everything that's broken about the Wizard and Cleric combined, with some extra added on top for good measure. You've gone beyond a tier 1 class, and have some sort of tier .5 or tier 0.

    edit: Just for comparison's sake, this class can prepare any spell it knows (which is a lot), but can spontaneously cast 3 spells per spell level, which is only slightly fewer than a Sorcerer gets (and equal at the top 3 spell levels which is what matters).

    Maybe leave in the templates, and have class features that build up to the templates (ie stat bonuses/immunities strewn throughout the class), and gains all 4 (maybe even add a 5th) of its domains at level 1, all spontaneously castable.... but aside from those domains + 1 arcane spell per spell level (which would also now be spontaneously castable), he doesn't have any other spells. This would make him stronger than the sorcerer (a mix up of divine and arcane spells, more spells known per level, and gaining the spell levels at odd levels as a wizard rather than a level late, plus actual class features), but more restrictive than a wizard/cleric (in exchange for the extra abilities gained from the templates and domains)

    Just a thought.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Quote Originally Posted by Maho-Tsukai View Post
    The difference is thus: Clerics seek to serve their deities. Invokers seek to become themselves like deities. Basically they do not worship gods for their power but rather invoke divine power through pure belief and force of personality, OR they invoke the very cosmic forces of good and evil themselves to channel divine power..either way their mastery over the divine magics they invoke eventually allows them to become an avatar of their alignment that is as close to a "god" that a mortal can get. Not sure which would be a better fit but I am leaning to making them more alignment-paragons then the other idea as it seems to fit the crunch better though I want opinions.
    Well, if that's what you're going for, you could give them a Salient Divine Ability as though they were DivRank 0-1 at level 20, maybe ignoring prerequisites. Some of those SDAs are really strong (Avatar, Alter Reality, Divine Creation, Divine Fire Mastery, etc.), though, so I'm not sure what you want to do with that.

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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Replace rebuke undead with the wizard's bonus feats?
    You lose the DMM abuse though they still get the feat bonus stuff
    And rebuke undead seems to be out of place here


    Edit: the metamagic feats bonus stuff

    Also, isnt soul of great power just....+2 to leadership (without the ability scores and the feat)? You could just say that to save time/not freak out DMs with the phrase "free LA".
    Last edited by Demidos; 2011-05-29 at 03:40 PM.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Rebuke is important here for a personal reason. I want this class to be AS GOOD as a cleric at necromancy. Losing rebuke would make it inferior to a cleric at minionmancy, which is my favorite part of necromancy. However, I COULD run it like pathfinder and make an Invoker-only feat that grants them turn/rebuke so they could still get it if they wanted it(So they could still be necros equal to clerics) but would have to blow a feat to obtain it. Would that be better off? it could be fluffed as them learning how to channel their divine power to influence undead as not EVERY invoker would learn in it but those interested in necromancy or destroying undead would, so thematically it fits as an ability they can have if they choose to learn it, but don't automatically get...would that be better?

    Oh, and also, the fire-souled template has more then just the leadership bonus and ability bonuses. It has two abilities, one of which is a situational touch-power that lets you strip a monster of an SLA and the other is a minor buff that you can give your allies if they are near you. Both abilities are hardly all that scary and the most "overpowered" parts of the template(the +4 cha and leadership as a bonus feat(if you don't already have it)) have been ruled away...
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-05-29 at 06:21 PM.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    If you feel it needs down-toning (again, in the realm of T1s when they're not deliberately played to break the game, I don't think this is so much stronger as to necessitate it; YMMV o'course), and want to keep the heart of the features, I'd probably take out the spontaneous domains first, taking away the power it has to step really hard on the toes of the dedicated spontaneous casters.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    True, but dose it really need all that toneing down? If so, how much? If I take away spontainous domains, replace them with bonus feats(except at level 1) and leave everything else as is would the class still be a tier 1 or would losing spontainous domains drop it down to tier 2(or lower)? Likewise, is the fire souled template at level 10 too much even without the cha bonus and leadership feat? If so would replacing it with the zone of desecrate/concecrate be a better idea? Likewise, I love the fluff of getting a single salient divine ability at level 20 instead of the saint/dark saint thing, but would that be too weak? too powerful?

    once those things are straitened out I think this class will be in a better position for me to write it some new fluff to better go alone with the whole "becomming like a deity" thing. Also, Rebuking undead dose fit with the fluff to me as using divine power to influence undead seems like something this class should be able to do.

    However, I also believe that it should be able to turn/rebuke undead as somebody trying to become the closest thing to a deity that a mortal can be would most likely be able to influence other creatures. So, I came up with the idea of making feats which allow the class to rebuke things other then undead, and also perhaps at 1st level they should have a choice as to what they turn/rebuke...though their only options starting off would be undead or creatures of their own race. Feats could then be used to turn/rebuke creature types of other then undead or their own race.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    One thing that really throws me off about the class is the name. I think Invoker -> Invocation -> Warlock/Dragonfire Adept.

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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Invoker is not the final name, though, as I will make the final fluff once the Crunch is worked out. Like all it's other incarnations it is using a temporary name as of now. Other names it has had where Priest, Divine Magus and Divine Soul. So most likely when complete the class will have a different name. I just want to iron out the crunch before I finalize the fluff as a chance in crunch may warrent a change in fluff(and that already as seemed to happen with all the sugjestions to change the capstone into a single salient divine ability and swaping fire souled for zone of concecrate/desecrate ect...)
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    True, but dose it really need all that toneing down? If so, how much?
    Like I mentioned before, the biggest problem I see is it's a tier 1 class, with more piled on top.

    This class literally has everything a Cleric has, with 2 extra domains, a spontaneous casting list on par with what a sorcerer gets, and 2 free templates thrown into the mix. I don't care that you gutted a bit out of the Fire-Souled template, the fact is that you have two templates which would normally require LA being granted for free. Oh and it gains 9 Wizard spells besides whatever it gains from domains, to combine with its cleric spell list.

    The only thing this class gives up to get all those things? A weaker fort save, HD, and BAB. Hardly a tradeoff, all things considered. In a campaign where this class existed, I would never, ever, play a cleric, simply because this class does everything the cleric does, but better. This is a problem, because Cleric is already a strong tier 1 class, and this class is better enough than it that it basically obsoletes it.

    Even in a explicitly tier 1 game, I wouldn't allow any sort of homebrew that is strictly better than existing tier 1 classes. Like I mentioned before, something's gotta give.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Most likely the best thing to do would be to remove spontainous domains and the templates, but would it still be tier 1 at that point? I am not sure if this would remain tier 1 without the spontainous domains and as a result would like to know before I strip all spontainous domain casting from the class. The templates will go either way, as I already have worthy ideas for replacements.(a single salient divine ability(though NO divine rank) at level 20 and at level 10 either a zone of concecrate/desecrate or perhaps a bonus feat(as spontainous domains II and III would be replaced with bonus feats while I'd just strip spontainous domain from level 1 and not replace it with anything.))
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-06-02 at 12:50 PM.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    And once again... what does the class lose relative to a cleric even with those changes? You are still a cleric who trades HD and BAB (as shown by a wizard not necessary for a high tier) for more domains, some wizard spells, and some as of yet unnamed awesome ability.


    Honestly, I'd say your best bet is probably making it a prestige class. Make it aimed for a Cleric who doesn't worship a deity, that gains some of the powers you want. Going that route you have a higher ceiling for power level, since there are several other really nice cleric prestige classes out there, without having to worry about "Why would anyone ever play a cleric with this class in existence?"
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Cha-casting is whats the most important part here, though. I wanted to make a cha-based, tier 1 class with cleric list access. That was the aim here. Therefore, making it a PrC would not work unless it randomly granted a cha-based caster class the whole cleric list, and that kinda already exists(Rainbow servant). In that case then the class no longer makes the cleric irrelevant but rather it would itself be irrelevant due to the existence of the rainbow servant unless there is a way to make it different enough from rainbow servant to warrant it's own class?

    The best thing to do would be to find a way to keep it tier 1 yet not any better then the cleric though it seems nobody knows how or wants to share how to do that.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-06-02 at 02:25 PM.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Quote Originally Posted by Maho-Tsukai View Post
    Cha-casting is whats the most important part here, though. I wanted to make a cha-based, tier 1 class with cleric list access. That was the aim here. Therefore, making it a PrC would not work unless it randomly granted a cha-based caster class the whole cleric list, and that kinda already exists(Rainbow servant). In that case then the class no longer makes the cleric irrelevant but rather it would itself be irrelevant due to the existence of the rainbow servant unless there is a way to make it different enough from rainbow servant to warrant it's own class?
    So why not play a refluffed rainbow servant, if it's that similar in concept to what you want? Then you don't even need homebrew.

    Or really, even just a homebrew ACF to change cleric to Cha based casting. Not the sort of thing I'd normally go with, but if what you want is a cha based cleric, then do just that: A cha based cleric, rather than a cha based cleric who also gains extra domains, templates, and wizard spells. You even get a side benefit out of that in having better turning (since that's based on cha)
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-06-02 at 02:28 PM.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Because it lacks a strong Rebuke undead. I ultimately wanted to create a tier 1, cha-based necromancer who is NOT inferior to the cleric. No class in exsistance can do that. I know, "play a Dread Necromancer," but I have done that and frankly I want a cha-based necromancer with more options beyond necromancy, and without homebrew I can't do that. There ARE 3rd party feats that can set a cleric to charisma instead of wisdom, but I would need good luck to ever find a DM that would actually allow that...


    The issue is mainly that I LOVE the cleric mechanically, but don't like/have trouble effectively playing high wisdom. So this really came out of an RP issue as I don't feel comfortable not RPing my mental stats the way they should and have trouble RPing high wisdom correctly. But the mechanics of the cleric are PERFECT for the type of characters I like beyond their casting stat, and as a result I have felt to get anything close to what I want I have to rely on homebrew as what I want dose not exist within the normal rules...

    and don't mention favored soul or archivist for non-wis based divine casters. Those classes lacks rebuke and domains and thus are crappy necromancers. Even with contemplative those will never get rebuke as pretty much all PrCs that grant turn/rebuke grant ONLY turn and the few that do grant rebuke pretty much require cleric as an entry. You COULD say just dip in dread necro or something but that's only useful for DMM and I care more about using Rebuke on undead then I do for using it as a means to abuse DMM.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-06-02 at 02:36 PM.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    So basically you want all the benefits and none of the drawbacks of several classes at once.

    Like I said, your best bet is just creating a ACF for a cha cleric. Since it does effectively boost your turning attempts, you can have it give something else up (such as the medium BAB or proficiencies), and keep it relatively balanced with the core cleric (I say relatively because neither of those things really matter), rather than making a new class that is strictly better than a cleric in every way.

    Because here you tried to build a class off the Dread Necro template as far as class abilities go, without the drawbacks of the much more limited spell list a Dread Necro has. The result was something stronger than any tier 1 class I know of, which is bad.
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    Default Re: [WIP] The Invoker- A Tier 1, Cha-based Divine Caster...(Need some Help with this

    Again, nobody would allow me to ever alter the cleric in that reguard. NOBODY. Not that this will be excepted either, but it dose mean that their needs to be a better solution then simply casting stat-swapping a cleirc or making an overpowered class.

    Though if you honestly think I have any chance of ever finding somebody that will allow the stat switch then please, tell..

    Also, Dynamic Priest dose not work as it means my DCs will be sucktastic without a high wisdom and last time I checked most of the good necromancy spells kinda require a save...unless your going just for minions and that's in in which case there is no reason not to play a Dread Necromancer. If your making a clerical necromancer your doing it to be good at making minions while having other options at your disposal. Going dynamic priest closes off a LOT of your options(due to horrid DCs) and as a result you, at that point, may as well just play a DN since all you have necromancy-wise is minions and if you are going for the "I want lots of minions and that's it" route then Dread Necro is strictly better.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2011-06-02 at 02:43 PM.
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