Dealing with Rope Trick.

[Pigkappa]

I'm DMing an Expedition to Castle Ravenloft campaign (but you don't need to know this campaign to answer to this thread).


The group has entered the castle today to look for some items in the catacombs. They had some trouble with a few undeads and the wizards wasted their high level spells, so they decided to rest. At 11 AM. The usual, annoying 15-minute adventuring day. They cast an extended rope trick (will last 14 hours and they can cast another one when that's over) and hid inside.

What's different this time is that they did so inside the castle. The castle is populated by several intelligent creatures that are likely to consider this an offense. The owner of the castle is a level 10 wizard (and he can cast Scrying, and sometimes does). There's also a wizard3/cleric3/true necromancer5 not far from their location, and a few other intelligent creatures in the castle. The PCs have sprung a few traps, killed a few undeads and cast Rope Trick not far from there, so the NPCs know their approximate location.

The necromancer is likely to check around with See Invisibility, so that she'll notice the Rope Trick is active. However, how can she attack the PCs while they're inside? Waiting 14 hours would be annoying and would give them time to prepare their spells again, which is something I'd like to avoid if possibile.
By RAW, I think a Dispel Magic spell on the invisible window wouldn't work. But there must be some way to take them off.

[Hirax]

Tracking them to the point of entry and simply setting up an ambush when they come out is generally the simplest thing to do. In a castle this should be trivial.

edit: if you describe the area where they cast it we could even lend ideas on how to ambush them. If they cast it in a corridor in particular you could be ultra nasty.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, dispel magic is a curious question. If you've judged that won't work, no big deal. There's Mass Make Manifest from Spell Compendium, Transdimensional Spell from Complete Arcane (and Complete Divine, and Unapproachable East). Or if you want to be mean, use Dimension Lock. They're on another plane, and now they're trapped for the duration of the Dimension Lock (can't change planes). And the plane their in will cease to be before the Lock expires....

[NNescio]

Transdimensional Spell (metamagic) lets you shoot into Rope Tricks.

'though, having a bunch of enemy casters and their flunkies (like in your case) setting up an ambush should be enough to give the party a really bad day. Especially if they have access to certain ward or trap-like spells.

[Pigkappa]

I'd like to use the spells and feats these NPCs actually have. Giving them Transdimensional Spell just because the PCs are in an extradimensional place would be really mean to them.


They are inside a room which is partially flooded; the ceiling is 3 meters high and the water is 1.5 meters high. I also decided that the Fireball spell only deals half damage in this condition (and I told them it's not working correctly, but they still used it), and this is convenient since there are 2 Wizards with Fireball and the immediate maximize feat.

[NNescio]

I'd like to use the spells and feats these NPCs actually have. Giving them Transdimensional Spell just because the PCs are in an extradimensional place would be really mean to them.


They are inside a room which is partially flooded; the ceiling is 3 meters high and the water is 1.5 meters high. I also decided that the Fireball spell only deals half damage in this condition (and I told them it's not working correctly, but they still used it), and this is convenient since there are 2 Wizards with Fireball and the immediate maximize feat.

Can you flood the whole room? Or use electricity spells?

[Pigkappa]

Not really. The room is 1.5 meters lower than the rest of the catacombs. Flooding the whole room would require flooding a really huge place.

The spellcasters do have some electricity spells though.

[Hirax]

How many exits does the room have?

[Jack_Simth]

Not really. The room is 1.5 meters lower than the rest of the catacombs. Flooding the whole room would require flooding a really huge place.

The spellcasters do have some electricity spells though.

Easy to solve. Either caster have access to Wall of Stone? Seal the thing off, divert water into there... or maybe just perfectly encase the window....

[NNescio]

Not really. The room is 1.5 meters lower than the rest of the catacombs. Flooding the whole room would require flooding a really huge place.

The spellcasters do have some electricity spells though.

Can you seal the room first?

Edit: Ninja'ed.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The other option is to fill the room with disposable minions that they will have to expend arcane energies getting rid of. Then the casters are part of the second wave. Makes it a lot nastier. Plus, now they're back down to about the same number of spells they had going into it.

[NNescio]

Or combine both options by flooding the room and then filling it with aquatic nasties. Might be a little too much though, but then again, this is Ravenloft.

[gbprime]

The other option is to fill the room with disposable minions that they will have to expend arcane energies getting rid of. Then the casters are part of the second wave. Makes it a lot nastier. Plus, now they're back down to about the same number of spells they had going into it.

Seconded. If the PC's insist on resting all the time, bulk up the combats with grunt troops that are worth basically nothing for XP and carry no treasure. That way the PC's expend more effort (and spells) on each fight than they otherwise would, cancelling out the advantage of resting.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Of course, once the party gets Teleport, it all becomes moot, as they can retire to their base of operations rather than using Rope Trick, but hey, keep 'em busy while you can...

[MrRigger]

Well, at this point, if the Necromancer does find them (as you say he can), but has no way of doing anything to him, he's got enough class levels to go around and get a fair number of other monsters (whatever makes up a CR or CR +2 encounter) to help set up an ambush. At that point, they just have to wait for the group to come out, and at that point, they won't have had time to prepare spells again until after the next Extended Rope Trick. And if you didn't draw them into a fight the first time, you've got another 14 hours to buff up your ambush, notify the Scrying Wizard so he can take a peek at them, and generally make life difficult for them.

Usually, I don't have a problem with players using Rope Trick to avoid nightly encounters with bandits and roving monsters, no one wants to get woken up by a hungry Grey Render gnawing on your leg, but using it at 11 AM after going nova with a set of rather poor spell selections (using a gimped Fireball, when you know it's going to be gimped? That's just a little stupid) and then setting up right by your last encounter, in a wizard's castle? You're asking for trouble, at that point. Seriously, between two wizards, even if they're only sporting minimal INT, they should have enough spells to last all day, or close to it.

MrRigger

[Pigkappa]

Sealing the room is possible but I don't really see why I should do this. The PCs could just break the wall of stone and walk away. Unless you mean I should seal it and then flood it completely, but that would be difficult without a Control Water spell (which nobody can cast).

Of course, once the party gets Teleport, it all becomes moot, as they can retire to their base of operations rather than using Rope Trick, but hey, keep 'em busy while you can...

Nope. Dimension Door and Teleport have been nerfed (by me) because they are definitely too good to escape. Dimension Door now has Short range, and Teleport has a 10 minutes casting time.

This is also true for NPCs, of course.


The room has only one exit, which is 3 meters large. There was a door there, but the PCs destroyed it.

[NNescio]

Sealing the room is possible but I don't really see why I should do this. The PCs could just break the wall of stone and walk away. Unless you mean I should seal it and then flood it completely, but that would be difficult without a Control Water spell (which nobody can cast).

Yes, this was what we meant. Create Water is also easily accessible, 'though it's rather inefficient if you are casting out of higher-level slots..

[Pigkappa]

If I flood the room, they will see the water going up. This could be nice and make them panic both in game and out of game.

However, I'd have to cast more than a hundred create water spells to do this. Is there any other way to flood it?

[JonestheSpy]

More mundane solution - just because spells can't cross the window doesn't mean other stuff can't, once it's been located.

Instead of setting an ambush and waiting for their enemies to regain full power or completely flooding their home, the castle dwellers should force them to come out as soon as the ambush is set up. If a large fire is built under the window, all that smoke is going to go right into the PC's refuge. Guess how long before the air in that little extradimensional bubble is unbreathable? Things like flasks of flaming oil can be tossed in as well, just to speed up the process.

BTW, there's also no reason why folks can't just get a ladder and climb into te space themselves, once they know where it is.

[Pigkappa]

That's actually a place in another dimension. You can't even see through the window even if you notice it's there. I don't think you can toss anything inside.

Also, setting up a fire in a flooded room would be quite difficult =P.

[Hirax]

However, I'd have to cast more than a hundred create water spells to do this. Is there any other way to flood it?

Toss a decanter of endless water in there, then seal the exit. That will force them out. Of course, put traps behind the exit if you're feeling particularly nasty.

[JonestheSpy]

That's actually a place in another dimension. You can't even see through the window even if you notice it's there. I don't think you can toss anything inside.

Sure you can. It's an open window - it's only defense is that it's invisible and that spells can't go through. How do you think enough air gets into a tiny pocket dimension so that up to 8 folk can stay in side for umpteen hours? Really, read the spell - there's zero that says that physical objects can't go through the window, any assumption that they can't is merely wishful thinking by players who want the spell to be more powerful than it already is.

Also, setting up a fire in a flooded room would be quite difficult =P.

Trickier, but not impossible. A couple of metal braziers on something that floats should do just fine.

[Safety Sword]

That's actually a place in another dimension. You can't even see through the window even if you notice it's there. I don't think you can toss anything inside.

Also, setting up a fire in a flooded room would be quite difficult =P.

I wonder if your PCs are watching that window closely, or do they assume they are safe inside and all sleeping?

If you know where the windows is, it might be fun to "prepare explosive runes this morning" right about where the window is. Those viewing the window from below as they climb out and wait for their companions might enjoy a warm reception to the day.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nope. Dimension Door and Teleport have been nerfed (by me) because they are definitely too good to escape. Dimension Door now has Short range, and Teleport has a 10 minutes casting time.

Ten minutes is more than enough time for abusing it. All you've done is negate the one legitimate use for it (in-combat movement without provoking AoO's). Now about the *only* thing it is good for is, after combat is over, returning to Home Base to rest and resupply.

[Safety Sword]

Toss a decanter of endless water in there, then seal the exit. That will force them out. Of course, put traps behind the exit if you're feeling particularly nasty.

If you take the interpretation that physical objects can cross the "window" then you can toss the decanter INTO the space!

Surely they have to come out then :)

[Pigkappa]

Ten minutes is more than enough time for abusing it. All you've done is negate the one legitimate use for it (in-combat movement without provoking AoO's). Now about the *only* thing it is good for is, after combat is over, returning to Home Base to rest and resupply.

It's good for travelling. And for scry and die. And yes, for returning to home base. That's good enough I think.

What I can't stand at all, and what I fixed this way, is the infamous "oh, the combat is going wrong. Well, no problem, we teleport 150 kilometers away."

I wonder if your PCs are watching that window closely, or do they assume they are safe inside and all sleeping

It's 11 AM and they woke up a few hours ago. They won't be sleeping at all, at least for several hours.







I think I'll do this. Count Strahd won't be involved because I want the PCs to deal with the Necromancer.

The necromancer will use a scroll of wall of stone to seal the room's entrance, except for a 10cm hole near the ceiling. A decanter of endless water will be used to spill water in there coming from that little hole. The PCs will eventually notice that the water is higher; the height of the water when they notice this will depend on their Spot check (I'll manage to find an adequate formula for this).

When they exit the room, five wraiths will be there, and if the PCs need to swim to move they will also have to pass a Will save versus Fear when they notice this (being in a totally flooded room with several undeads is one of the scariest situations I can think of).

If they survive this, the Necromancer and all of his minions will be waiting in the Hall. She will be willing to speak with them if they don't attack her, and she will probably kill them all if they do.

Any suggestion is still appreciated anyway, we won't play again since next sunday.

[erikun]

Once the necromancer notices the party, have them send a bunch of undead minions into the room. Say, 100 skeletons or zombies or so. Have them all "play dead", lying on the floor until the PCs exit. Even if the PCs notice them, they still only have one way to exit. Consider the ground difficult terrain, with one undead standing up in every unoccupied square until all 100 are dead. Obviously, the ones "playing dead" on the ground, under 4 feet of water, will be immune to any fire spells.

Outside the door, position a few ghouls (or something similar) to charge and attack anyone coming out of the room.

That should expend their spell lists quite nicely. If they decide to set up camp in the same spot again (probably because that encounter taxed their spells), then the necromancers just set up the same senario again. They probably wouldn't bother with a "minor concern that will resolve itself" like the party unless they manage to remain camped for a couple of days.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think I'll do this. Count Strahd won't be involved because I want the PCs to deal with the Necromancer.

The necromancer will use a scroll of wall of stone to seal the room's entrance, except for a 10cm hole near the ceiling. A decanter of endless water will be used to spill water in there coming from that little hole. The PCs will eventually notice that the water is higher; the height of the water when they notice this will depend on their Spot check (I'll manage to find an adequate formula for this).

When they exit the room, five wraiths will be there, and if the PCs need to swim to move they will also have to pass a Will save versus Fear when they notice this (being in a totally flooded room with several undeads is one of the scariest situations I can think of).

If they survive this, the Necromancer and all of his minions will be waiting in the Hall. She will be willing to speak with them if they don't attack her, and she will probably kill them all if they do.

Any suggestion is still appreciated anyway, we won't play again since next sunday.

Wraiths in an underwater setting... I like it. They are not hampered in the least by being submerged, the party will be.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Characters can only prepare spells once per 24 hour period, not simply every time they rest for 8 hours. Undead live forever, they can just stand around waiting for the PCs to show themselves. Incorporeal undead, anything capable of using illusions, skeletons hidden under loose dirt/piles of bones, etc. makes a decent ambush. Definitely have something set up to attack them as soon as they leave the Rope Trick, preferably one at a time. Make it so they'll have to rest yet again before they continue adventuring, they'll learn soon enough not to Rope Trick in enemy territory.

[Jack_Simth]

Sealing the room is possible but I don't really see why I should do this. The PCs could just break the wall of stone and walk away. Unless you mean I should seal it and then flood it completely, but that would be difficult without a Control Water spell (which nobody can cast).

You don't get it.

You seal the window.

Their only way out is now encased in a Wall of Stone, less than an inch from the window itself. As the window is only 3 feet by five feet, and is probably right up next to the ceiling, you fold the Wall of Stone on itself, mounting all of those 5x5 slabs of rock in a row. At, say, caster level 10, that's 20 inches of rock they'll need to go through. Unless they're packing Disintegrate, that'll take a while. In the meantime, them getting out is going to be very, very obvious, as they repeatedly pound on the stone. So you've got an alarm for while you're working - setting a Decanter of Endless Water to Gyser, stepping out of the room, sealing the room behind you (using the same folded Wall trick), and then setting up minions in an ambush.

Three layers. Most people will really only expect to see one.

So they look through the window with some light from a torch or whatever, see they've been walled in, and shrug, preparing their spells like they normally would, then setting the fighter to bash through the stone when they're ready to leave.

Once the stone's out of the way, they start to get concerned, as the only place for them to go is now full of water. Did they prep water breathing? Make sure to read up on the drowning rules. As they're bashing through the first one, the caster makes his listen check, and starts casting the minutes/level group buffs on the minions. As they're panicking in the water, and working on bashing the second wall down, the caster makes a *very easy* listen check, and casts his rounds/level buffs on his minions. He then walks away and lets his minions handle it.

Should make for a very memorable encounter, if anyone survives....

Edit: Oooh, incorporeal undead in the flooded room! Nice....