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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    I would prefer to avoid a TPK. The scenario you described would certainly result in one.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    You don't get it.

    You seal the window.

    Their only way out is now encased in a Wall of Stone, less than an inch from the window itself. As the window is only 3 feet by five feet, and is probably right up next to the ceiling, you fold the Wall of Stone on itself, mounting all of those 5x5 slabs of rock in a row. At, say, caster level 10, that's 20 inches of rock they'll need to go through. Unless they're packing Disintegrate, that'll take a while. In the meantime, them getting out is going to be very, very obvious, as they repeatedly pound on the stone. So you've got an alarm for while you're working - setting a Decanter of Endless Water to Gyser, stepping out of the room, sealing the room behind you (using the same folded Wall trick), and then setting up minions in an ambush.

    Three layers. Most people will really only expect to see one.

    So they look through the window with some light from a torch or whatever, see they've been walled in, and shrug, preparing their spells like they normally would, then setting the fighter to bash through the stone when they're ready to leave.

    Once the stone's out of the way, they start to get concerned, as the only place for them to go is now full of water. Did they prep water breathing? Make sure to read up on the drowning rules. As they're bashing through the first one, the caster makes his listen check, and starts casting the minutes/level group buffs on the minions. As they're panicking in the water, and working on bashing the second wall down, the caster makes a *very easy* listen check, and casts his rounds/level buffs on his minions. He then walks away and lets his minions handle it.

    Should make for a very memorable encounter, if anyone survives....

    Edit: Oooh, incorporeal undead in the flooded room! Nice....
    For extra fun, before completely finishing the stone wall, light a fire so that it will be encased as well. It will use up the air rather quickly and force them to panic while trying to break that stone wall without breathing.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pigkappa View Post
    I would prefer to avoid a TPK. The scenario you described would certainly result in one.
    Less than you might think. For one, as each layer is hidden until they get past the current one, if they're close to dead, you can simply ignore the remainder.

    For another, if you stop and look up the Drowning Rules, you'll see "Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score." - do note, though, that it's explicitly modified by the Swim Skill: "If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his or her breath only half as long as normal.)"

    Still, though, Con-10 means you've got ten rounds before you even need to start making checks; when was the last time a battle went that long? And I didn't exactly specify what critters to use. Two or three CR 3 Shadows in a flooded room are in favorable terrain, and make an ECL 6 or 7 encounter immediately after they've gotten out of the Rope Trick. 16 CR 1/3 Human Warrior Skeletons, buffed up with Haste, Desecrate, a quick Bolster (so they don't fall instantly to Turning), Greater Magic Weapon, and Magic Vestments, again makes for Favorable Circumstances. An encounter level of around 7 or 8.

    An extended Rope Trick lasts 14 hours = they're 7th level. This is actually about right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elric VIII View Post
    For extra fun, before completely finishing the stone wall, light a fire so that it will be encased as well. It will use up the air rather quickly and force them to panic while trying to break that stone wall without breathing.
    Eh, that makes it a lot harder to wing it if it goes worse than you expect.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2011-05-29 at 09:36 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Or if you want to be mean, use Dimension Lock. They're on another plane, and now they're trapped for the duration of the Dimension Lock (can't change planes). And the plane their in will cease to be before the Lock expires....
    Well, their goal of leaving Ravenloft would be accomplished, but I imagine that ending the campaign is something the DM already could do without using an NPC.

    Flooding the room they're in though, that'll definitely teach them not to rope trick in an area that the enemy will easily find them.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-05-29 at 09:39 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    I wouldn't be as harsh as some of the others recommend, but they do deserve a hard time for their foolish decision. Block them in with a wall of stone, but instead of flooding the room or exhausting the oxygen, just foul the air. While they fight the necromancer's undead minions, they suffer from some sort of toxic fumes.

    Additionally, the powers of Ravenloft can keep someone from teleporting out of a lord's domain. They may someday try to teleport clear, only to discover themselves on a frigid, mist-shrouded mountainside, with the howl of werewolves quickly approaching...

    Why can't the rope trick be dispelled? I don't follow your reasoning about that.
    Last edited by Sir_Wulf; 2011-05-29 at 11:22 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Wulf View Post
    I wouldn't be as harsh as some of the others recommend, but they do deserve a hard time for their foolish decision. Block them in with a wall of stone, but instead of flooding the room or exhausting the oxygen, just foul the air. While they fight the necromancer's undead minions, they suffer from some sort of toxic fumes.

    Additionally, the powers of Ravenloft can keep someone from teleporting out of a lord's domain. They may someday try to teleport clear, only to discover themselves on a frigid, mist-shrouded mountainside, with the howl of werewolves quickly approaching...

    Why can't the rope trick be dispelled? I don't follow your reasoning about that.
    The standard defence is this: Rope Trick targets a piece of rope. Said piece of rope is then pulled into the extradimensional space, and can no longer be targeted by Dispel Magic, or reached by the area version.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    The standard defence is this: Rope Trick targets a piece of rope. Said piece of rope is then pulled into the extradimensional space, and can no longer be targeted by Dispel Magic, or reached by the area version.
    If you can see the "window" with see invisibility, surely you can target it with spells. The description states you can't target spells through it, not onto it.

    Surely the window itself is a magical effect, owing to the fact that it is invisible, but can been seen through from the other side.

    Sounds like a fair target to me. Then you just have to decide what happens if you dispel the window... you could be really evil with that one.
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― George Carlin

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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Safety Sword View Post
    Sounds like a fair target to me. Then you just have to decide what happens if you dispel the window... you could be really evil with that one.
    Agreed... however, the DM in question is the original poster, and the original poster has already come to the conclusion that it's not dispellable.

    However, if it were dispellable, the specific interaction is surprisingly well-defined. Dispel Magic terminates spells as though they had expired, and Rope Trick safely ejects everyone when it expires (well, they still fall, but you get the idea).
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Agreed... however, the DM in question is the original poster, and the original poster has already come to the conclusion that it's not dispellable.

    However, if it were dispellable, the specific interaction is surprisingly well-defined. Dispel Magic terminates spells as though they had expired, and Rope Trick safely ejects everyone when it expires (well, they still fall, but you get the idea).
    OK, so no dispel...

    How about disintegrate?
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― George Carlin

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    Me: You get infuriated with people who have different opinions on how to play "magic elf games"? Relax. It's a game. It's supposed to be fun.

    Kurald Galain: You're playing Magic Elf games? Pffff. In the 21st century, clearly Enchanted Dwarf games are where it's at.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Safety Sword View Post
    OK, so no dispel...

    How about disintegrate?
    You disintegrate... what? It's not a force construct. The extradimensional interface isn't even technically an object.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    You disintegrate... what? It's not a force construct. The extradimensional interface isn't even technically an object.
    What IS it then?

    An invisible "IWIN" resting button?

    For reference:

    Quote Originally Posted by d20 SRD
    When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.

    Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.
    Emphasis mine, clearly.
    Last edited by Safety Sword; 2011-05-30 at 12:12 AM.
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― George Carlin

    Kurald Galain on progress:

    Me: You get infuriated with people who have different opinions on how to play "magic elf games"? Relax. It's a game. It's supposed to be fun.

    Kurald Galain: You're playing Magic Elf games? Pffff. In the 21st century, clearly Enchanted Dwarf games are where it's at.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    a way to deal with rope trick is to enforce money weight. gold is really heavy particularly when you have a lot of it. They could carry gems but then they will be in trouble when they only have 5000 gp gems and want to buy a 4000 gp item.
    This basically forces them to take bags of holding which cant be safely placed inside the rope trick. which severely limits what they can do.

    many dm house rule away that feature but its in the rules and its as bad as you want it to be.

    edit actually something ive thought that would be amusing is a monster throwing an extra dimensional space into the rope trick
    Last edited by awa; 2011-05-30 at 12:20 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    And how exactly do you disintegrate it?

    Effect: Ray

    ...

    When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.
    Emphasis Mine. Very clearly.
    Last edited by NNescio; 2011-05-30 at 12:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Safety Sword View Post
    What IS it then?

    An invisible "IWIN" resting button?
    Well, as demonstrated by the rather nasty surprises an opponent can prepare if he finds the resting spot, not really.

    And really, there's a LOT of ways to find that resting spot. Anyone with decent ranks in Survival and the Track feat will usually be able to find where they vanished. A simple cantrip (Detect Magic) will locate the window. Then there's all manner of ambushes you can set up in the area. Most of the tricks spelled out here were designed around the theme and resources of the OP's local BBEG in use while still being very effective.

    Now, you can take extra steps to avoid most of that - cast Rope Trick on a short length of rope, tuck the rope up into the Trick, cast Fly on the entire party, go back 2d6 rooms without touching anything, and cast Rope Trick on a second rope while you're still in the air, then go into *that* Rope Trick to rest up sort of thing.... but if you need to take such steps:
    1) You're burning more resources (an extra Rope Trick, plus ... what, four 3rd level spells? ... not an inconsiderable investment, even at 10th or 15th).
    2) You're having to layer defenses, which makes it fairly clear it's not unbeatable (otherwise, you wouldn't need the extra layers of obfuscation).

    AKA, not an "IWIN" button at all.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Safety Sword View Post
    What IS it then?

    An invisible "IWIN" resting button?

    For reference:



    Emphasis mine, clearly.
    It's an interface between two planes. Trying to Disintegrate that is like trying to Disintegrate the line made between the light and the darkness. It makes no sense.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    And how exactly do you disintegrate it?



    Emphasis Mine. Clearly.
    I think you're stretching trying to compare Rope Trick" to effects that are clearly purposed to defeat magical disintegration.
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― George Carlin

    Kurald Galain on progress:

    Me: You get infuriated with people who have different opinions on how to play "magic elf games"? Relax. It's a game. It's supposed to be fun.

    Kurald Galain: You're playing Magic Elf games? Pffff. In the 21st century, clearly Enchanted Dwarf games are where it's at.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucrose View Post
    It's an interface between two planes. Trying to Disintegrate that is like trying to Disintegrate the line made between the light and the darkness. It makes no sense.
    I don't see how it doesn't make sense. The spell creates a real (although invisible) manifestation on the plane the bad guys are on.

    Why can't they interact with it? THAT doesn't make sense.
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― George Carlin

    Kurald Galain on progress:

    Me: You get infuriated with people who have different opinions on how to play "magic elf games"? Relax. It's a game. It's supposed to be fun.

    Kurald Galain: You're playing Magic Elf games? Pffff. In the 21st century, clearly Enchanted Dwarf games are where it's at.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Safety Sword View Post
    I think you're stretching trying to compare Rope Trick" to effects that are clearly purposed to defeat magical disintegration.
    And I think you are stretching trying to say that Disintergrate can disintergrate anything except for Globes of Invulnerability (which lets it through) and Antimagic Fields.

    Disintegrate, very clearly, states that it only affects three kinds of targets. Creatures (living or not), nonliving matter, and force constructs. Nothing else is valid, 'though nonliving matter covers a lot of categories.

    You cannot disintegrate something like say, a Cloudkill either. Or an illusion. Or the cleric's buffs. Yes, they are sitting on the Material Plane. No, you can't disintegrate them.
    Last edited by NNescio; 2011-05-30 at 12:31 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    Disintegrate, very clearly, states that it only affects three kinds of targets. Creatures (living or not), nonliving matter, and force constructs. Nothing else is valid, 'though nonliving matter covers a lot of categories.
    ...You can't disintegrate trees?
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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    ...You can't disintegrate trees?
    ... hmm. All righty... looks like you can target them, but because they're not creatures, and they're not nonliving objects, there is no effect from doing so, by RAW. Weird.

    However, if you cast Animate Object, Liveoak, or similar spells on the tree first, then yes, you can, because it becomes a creature.

    by RAW.

    Do note that sometimes RAW is very, very silly.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    ...Oh dear.

    Looks like we've stumbled upon a druidic secret.
    Last edited by NNescio; 2011-05-30 at 12:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    You could make the argument that trees are creatures. D&D's definition of creature is already very broad.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    You could make the argument that trees are creatures. D&D's definition of creature is already very broad.
    Sadly:
    Wisdom

    Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.
    Charisma

    Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.
    (emphasis added)

    It really depends on what stats you assign to the tree... and they're statted up in the manner of objects.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    You could make the argument that trees are creatures. D&D's definition of creature is already very broad.
    The SRD seems to be explicit in this regard though.
    Plant Type

    This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores (see Nonabilities) and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    The SRD seems to be explicit in this regard though.
    Ooh, a better quote! Cool.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Huh. That's hilarious, then. Disintegrate really doesn't work on trees by RAW.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    Huh. That's hilarious, then. Disintegrate really doesn't work on trees by RAW.
    Cue PCs running around with potted plants as/in addition to armour/shields

    On topic: What happens when an antimagic field interacts with a rope trick's door?
    Last edited by Drglenn; 2011-05-30 at 01:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    Huh. That's hilarious, then. Disintegrate really doesn't work on trees by RAW.
    So. . . wait, is that a way for Wizards to get around disintigrate?

    DM- Bad guy casts spell at you!
    WIZ- Spellcraft! What is the spell?
    DM- Disintigrate.
    WIZ- I have a contingency (whatever spell would work here) to become a tree for 1 round!
    DM- Ok. . . he finishes, roll fort.
    WIZ- No! I'ma Tree! HAHAHA!!!!
    DM- . . . . . .

    LOL

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeminiVeil View Post
    So. . . wait, is that a way for Wizards to get around disintigrate?

    DM- Bad guy casts spell at you!
    WIZ- Spellcraft! What is the spell?
    DM- Disintigrate.
    WIZ- I have a contingency (whatever spell would work here) to become a tree for 1 round!
    DM- Ok. . . he finishes, roll fort.
    WIZ- No! I'ma Tree! HAHAHA!!!!
    DM- . . . . . .

    LOL
    DM: The villain burns the tree.
    Wiz: Immediate Action, I ca-
    DM: You're an object. You can't take actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

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    Default Re: Dealing with Rope Trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    DM: The villain burns the tree.
    Wiz: Immediate Action, I ca-
    DM: You're an object. You can't take actions.
    Ahh, Factotum Villains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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