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    Default [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]


    ^image: A keeper with an originally feline companion that gained Draconic type as well.

    The Keeper

    "Theres nothing more amusing then having your greatest enemies become your favorite weapons."
    ~Valleria the White



    The Keeper
    Custom
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th

    1st|+0|+0|+0|+0|Keepers Guard, Entrapment, Spirit Companion|3|—|—|—|—|—

    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+0|Spells|4|—|—|—|—|—

    3rd|+1|+1|+1|+1||5|3|—|—|—|—

    4th|+2|+1|+1|+1|Keepers Guard|6|4|—|—|—|—

    5th|+2|+1|+1|+1|Absorb Key|7|5|3|—|—|—

    6th|+3|+2|+2|+2|Spells|8|6|4|—|—|—

    7th|+3|+2|+2|+2||8|7|5|3|—|—

    8th|+4|+2|+2|+2|Keepers Guard|8|8|6|4|—|—

    9th|+4|+3|+3|+3||8|8|7|5|3|—

    10th|+5|+3|+3|+3|Spells, Entrapment|8|8|8|6|4|—

    11th|+5|+3|+3|+3||8|8|8|7|5|3

    12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+4|Keepers Guard|8|8|8|8|6|4

    13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+4||8|8|8|8|7|5

    14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+4|Spells|8|8|8|8|8|6

    15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|Absorb Key|8|8|8|8|8|7

    16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+5|Keepers Guard|8|8|8|8|8|8

    17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+5||8|8|8|8|8|8

    18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|Spells|8|8|8|8|8|8

    19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6||8|8|8|8|8|8

    20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+6|Spirit Companion, Entrapment, Keepers Guard|8|8|8|8|8|8

    [/table]

    Hit Die:
    d6

    Skills:
    4+int (x4 at first level)

    Class Skills:
    Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device

    Alignment:
    Keepers can be of any alignment. Most typically worship magic in general if they are religious at all.

    Class Features:

    Weapons and Armor proficiency:
    Keepers are not proficient with any armor, shields, and are only proficient with simple weapons. They cannot wear armor heavier then Light even upon gaining proficiency at a later date.

    Spirit Companion [Extraordinary]:
    The Keeper has a spirit companion, this companion is a representation of the Keeper's own soul. It can shapechange between its full form and any harmless tiny creature.
    It has 1d12 HD which is gained when ever you gain a level, AC 15+Class levels. Saves equal to your own, immune to constitution based effects, needs not sleep, eat, drink, or any other function. It sees what you could see (if you were standing where it was), and can go ethereal at will.
    Its BAB is equal to your own, same with Speed, Initiative ect. and it uses your ability scores
    Beyond that there are different types:
    Draconic: Your companion is draconic in appearance, It has a Breath weapon in a 30ft cone or 60ft line dealing a chosen energy damage. (1d6 per two class levels), Its breath weapon reflects itself in the color patterns of your companion. The Draconic's breath weapon can be used at will. Every five levels, add 10ft to the range. at level ten the dragon can alternate between cone or line.
    Granted Power: Speak Language: Draconic, +1 natural armor for every 4 class levels. Breath weapon 1d6 damage per two class levels of the same type as your spirit-dragon. Recharge every 1d10 rounds. If you already have a breath weapon, increase damage die by one and lessen any recharge by one die (If recharge was d4, it is now usable every other turn)
    Feline: Your companion is catlike, whether it be from a Tiger, Lion, cheetah or otherwise. base land speed increases by 20ft, See-In-Dark ability. Has two claw attacks dealing 1d4 per two class levels, and attacks twice (one for each claw) if both land it can Shred the target dealing an additional 1d4 per class levels.
    Granted Power: Speak with Animals: Felines, +1 to Hide, Move silently, climb and you treat all falls as 20ft less and always land on your feat, as well as immunity to being knocked prone unless your also knocked unconscious.
    Lupine: Your companion is wolf like in appearance. It has a howl attack that deals 1d4 Sonic damage per two class level to all within 60ft radius, dealing extra damage(x2) to crystalline objects and creatures, on a Fortitude saving throw. Mindless undead do not get a save, intelligent undead use will.
    Granted Power: Speak with Animals: Canines (any dog, wolf, ect), +1 to Handle Animal, Diplomacy, and Ride. They gain the Leadership feat for free. and can summon 1d4 wolves until level 10, at which level they can summon a Dire wolf OR 1d4 wolves, and at 15 they summon 1d4 Dire Wolves, 1d4 wolves, or one wolf or one dire wolf if so chosen.)
    Demonic: Your companion is demonlike in its appearance. It has a hellfire attack in which all attacks it uses deal an extra evil aligned fire damage equal to you class levels. Demonic companions are usually humanoid, and can use normal weapons. if not, they usually have horns dealing 1d6 piercing damage per two class levels.
    Granted Power: You can speak with Demons, And they listen (as normal NPC's rather then mindless monsters or chaotic hellbent insane creatures) You gain +1 Bluff, +1 Knowledge (Planes), and + 2 per three levels to resist evil effects. (including evil descriptive spells or evil aligned attacks. In addition, you gain Fire resistance and unholy, Vile, and Negative energy resistance equal to your class levels.
    Angelic:Your companion is Angelic in its appearance. It has a holy light attack in which all its attacks deal an extra good aligned fire damage equal to your class levels. Angelic companions are also usually humanoid and can use weapons. If not, Non humanoid angelics are usually avian in appearance and can use wings or a tail for damage dealing 1d4 damage per two class levels as bludgeoning damage which they can use to get a free attack in using the tail at a -4 penalty. Wings are more for show however, and don't grant flight (just as a Draconic companion, may have wings, but no flight)
    Granted Power: You can speak with Angels and celestial creatures and they understand you, You gain +1 Diplomacy, +1 Knowledge (planes), and +2 per three levels to resist good effects. (good aligned attacks, and spells with the [Good] descriptor, Holy, and Positive energy damage)
    Specter:Your companion is wraithlike. It has a frightful presence with a save DC equal to 10 +1/2 class levels +Charisma modifier (which is the same as your CHA mod +2) on a fail, they are shaken at a range of charisma mod x10 ft. It can also, through a touch, inflict a fort save with the same DC for 1 constitution damage per five class levels. this ability is usable any time per day but with a recharge; every three turns you can roll to see if it recharges on a roll of 6 or higher on a d10.
    Granted Power: You can become incorporeal a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier for Charisma modifier worth of rounds. You can also use Speak with Dead at will, but only once per corpse. In addition, you can make a touch attack dealing 1d4 negative energy damage per three class levels at will.
    Fey:Your companion is feylike, usually in the form of Fairy like creature or even something like an elf, nymph, or pixie (Just to clarrify, they only look like one. no special abilities beyond whats noted here) If not humanoid, its often the form of a magical beast. It has the power to use a single subtype of a school of magic as spell like abilities at the same rate as 1/2th Sorcerer's Spells per day and spells known starting at 1(sor) at 2(Kep). then 2(sor) at 4(Kep) 10(sor) at 20(Kep), ect.
    Granted Power: You can speak with any Fey creature and they understand you as you understand them. You also gain +1 effective caster level. Every five levels, you can choose one spell you can cast via Spells feature. That spell is now usable 1/day per class levels as a Spell-Like ability.

    20: Your Spirit companion can shapechange to any dominate race within 200 miles (Be it elves, humans, dwarves or otherwise) So long as the creatures HD does not exceed half your HD, Gains your saves +4, another Type (Draconic Feline for example), and is its own person now, not just an extension of yourself. Thus capable of its own decisions (If not going against the Keeper), its own likes and dislikes and attractions.
    In addition, the previous type is advanced and gains one prominent feature of a member of the companions type. Such as a Draconic gaining a Frightful Presence, or a Fey gaining Blinding Beauty.

    afternotes: Takes a movement equivalent action to change forms, any state not mentioned uses the Keeper's. If its killed you take a temporary negative level equal to 1/4th your class levels, to get it back you must spend a day in meditation at end of which time the Companion regenerates and returns to you and negative levels are restored.
    You can communicate with the Spirit companion via telepathy at a range equal to charisma mod x100 ft.

    Entrapment [Extraordinary]:
    Any creature you kill must make a will save DC 10 +1/2 class levels +Charisma modifier. On a fail, their body crystallizes into a small key shaped construction.
    The Keeper may at a later date call the creatures name as a standard action, which is intuitively known after Key conversion, The key disappears and the creature reappears in a space close to you usually where you pointed the key as you re-summoned it.
    The "Key" Is completely loyal to you, acts on its own (separate from your movement pool). It intuitively knows the reason behind its 'summoning' and acts accordingly.
    You can only Entrap creatures with CR not exceeding 1/2 your class levels +Charisma modifier. After used, The creature lives again (as opposed to being dead from you killing it before Entrapping it) teleported away to a random location it would normally exist or somewhere random if such a place is no longer in existence. The creature has no memory of you. Creature vanishes after Caster level +4 minutes or at the end of the fight, encounter or reason for summons is complete which ever is shortest. Creature has no memory of you, but may be drawn to you (in curiosity, attraction or anger) but does not have memory.
    Keepers can use another Keeper's keys if traded, or willingly given. But you still can't USE any keys that you wouldn't normally be able to use.
    10: You may use a key a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier before it vanishes.
    20: If creature is willing, You can create permanent keys. Creature Key'd is ageless, and looses personal will. (cannot act against owners wishes) These keys are called Bindings.
    Special: only one Key can be active (summoned, or what ever you wanna call it) at a time.
    afternote: There is no limit to amount of keys you can possess, however you can only USE a number of them equal to class levels in a day other restrictions mentioned apply.

    Absorb Key [Extraordinary]:
    You can absorb Key made from Entrapment to gain 1 feature of the creature in the key per use you would normally have to summon it. Permanent keys destroyed on absorption and give charisma mod +5 features.
    Features include the ability to turn incorporeal, or a Breath Weapon, Appearance, Gaze attacks ect. Only physical abilities can be absorbed, Not mental such as the ability to use Psilike or spellike abilities or gain knowledge from them.
    Can only have a number of features active equal to your class levels. You can assume the form for 1 round per Charisma point.
    15: You can maintain assumed forms for a day per charisma point and do not destroy permanent keys. However, if using it this way you gain nothing more then normal bodily functions, appearance, voice, mannerisms ect, But not Extraordinary, supernatural, spell-like or other such abilities.
    Takes a full round action to fully absorb a key. If damaged in that time they take backlash of 1d6 per trait you were to assume.
    Example:
    Saint Esperoque absorbs one of her keys, She can choose to take the creatures STR, BAB, Natural Armor, Fort, a skill, Fire resistance, or a class feature. But cannot take its Wiz, Int, Cha, Will, Knowledges, ect.


    Spells:

    The Keeper gets spellcasting taken from both the Druid and Sorcerer spell lists, but all spells as if they were one level higher. (Fireball at spell level four, Prestidigitation at level one) The Keeper uses Charisma to determine spellcasting, such as for saves and spells per day.
    At every "Spells" level listed on the table, they get to pick one spell a normal druid or sorcerer could get at that level and add it to her spells known at the correct level. (Fireball at spell level three, instead of four) You need to actually be able to cast the spell level, of course.

    Below is the Spells Known table otherwise.
    Spells Known
    {table=head]Level|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th

    1st|1|—|—|—|—|—

    2nd|2|—|—|—|—|—

    3rd|2|1|—|—|—|—

    4th|3|1|—|—|—|—

    5th|3|1|1|—|—|—

    6th|3|2|1|—|—|—

    7th|3|2|1|1|—|—

    8th|3|2|2|1|—|—

    9th|3|3|2|1|1|—

    10th|3|3|2|2|1|—

    11th|3|3|3|2|1|1

    12th|3|3|3|2|2|1

    13th|3|3|3|3|2|1

    14th|3|3|3|3|2|2

    15th|3|3|3|3|3|2

    16th|3|3|3|3|3|2

    17th|3|3|3|3|3|3

    18th|3|3|3|3|3|3

    19th|3|3|3|3|3|3

    20th|3|3|3|3|3|3

    [/table]



    Keepers Guard [Extraordinary]:
    Your powers over the wills of others manifest as a Deflection bonus to AC against attacks against you as innate forces try to alter the aim of attackers. (Creatures immune to Mind effecting effects are immune to this, But others are Not entitled to a will save)
    • Lv1 +2 Deflection
    • Lv4 +4 Deflection
    • Lv8 +6 Deflection
    • Lv12 +8 Deflection
    • Lv16 +10 Deflection
    • Lv20 +12 Deflection


    Commanding presence:
    Keepers have an aura of authority, +2 per three class levels bonus to Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff, and Seduction (if you use it).
    In addition, all allies within Cha mod x10 ft suffer a bonus to will saving throws equal to half your charisma modifier round down, and your undead should you have any gain the same to their Turn Resistance as well. Enemies in the aura take a -1 per three class levels to resist your Enchantment effects if they first fail a will save DC 15+cha mod.


    PLAYING A KEEPER
    Combat: Keepers usually shy away from personal fights, Keeping summons, Keys, and her Spirit Companion between her and her enemies. Thats if she gets into fights in the first place, instead using abilities such as Command or Charm Monster before fights begin.
    Advancement: Keepers could make good use of some levels as Barbarians, Druids, Rangers and Rogues fluff wise, Rogues stealth can keep them hidden while their minions do the work, Druids magics and animal companions complement the Keepers fluff, and Barbarians and rangers are good for Keepers who wanna get in the fight sometimes.
    Resources: Keepers either love or hate other keepers. There are often guild halls of Keepers in which they can talk about their encounters, get tips, and trade with other keepers. At such places they can even Sell unwanted Keys (for Key's HD x100 gp, or Key's HD x1000 for permanent Keys)

    KEEPERS IN THE WORLD

    "Does that girl over there look familiar to you? Its been bugging me all day, I could swear I've seen her somewhere but I don't know where." A confused cleric talking to his colleagues.

    Daily Life: Keepers typically lead lives of adventuring or dark criminal behavior to best collect their wanted Key's. Many Keepers adventure with other keepers or against other keepers in pitched rivalry over who gets the better Keys. Others are just in it for the money involved in selling captured creatures, or for other collection based reasons.
    Organizations: There are many Keeper organizations or solo operations, typically for training young aspiring Keepers, or simple public houses for Keepers to gather, trade, and compare. Other guild houses specialize in Keeper tournements where Keepers match Keys against Keys for sport.
    NPC REACTIONS
    Nothing to extraordinary, People could hate you or love you, seeing you as a horrid person who enslaves creatures to your will, Others can see you as a savior helping rid the world of monsters. Others still may even seek Keepers out as a lesser form of prolonged existence.
    Last edited by Cipherthe3vil; 2011-07-22 at 08:00 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    How often per day can the Keeper use the Summon ability?

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    How often per day can the Keeper use the Summon ability?

    Ah sorry, looks Like I didn't finish writing it out xD

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Because of the flavor of the class leans a bit towards nature and the wild, I suggest making your Summon ability give the Keeper a choice when casting between Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally. (They're the same spell but with dramatically different creatures called)

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Because of the flavor of the class leans a bit towards nature and the wild, I suggest making your Summon ability give the Keeper a choice when casting between Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally. (They're the same spell but with dramatically different creatures called)
    They're more Magic, Planes and Souls then Nature really, But I'll think about what to do with it/
    Last edited by Cipherthe3vil; 2011-05-31 at 12:45 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    They're more Magic, Planes and Souls then Nature really, But I'll think about what to do with it/
    Oh. Sorry, I just thought with the cat and the fey options you were shooting for a balance between spirit and nature. Can't wait to read your lore when you post it. (The fluff and Playing a Keeper stuff)

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Spirit Companion: How many hit dice? Do the draconic and lupine companions have any natural weapons? What's its Dex score? Str score? AC should probably be less because you can equip it with items that boost it further. What happens if it dies? How long does it take to call a new one? What action is it for it to transform? Can you communicate with it telepathically or how do you communicate with it? If telepathically what range and what's its Int? What's the range on frightful presence? At 1st level it is strictly better than being a sorcerer (fey).

    What action is it to summon an entrapped creature? Is there a limit to the number of creatures you can entrap at a time (honestly there should be a rather low limit, especially as they are fairly auto-replenishing)? Also do you have to personally deal the last blow? Also duration should probably be shorter, and what if you summon it to be your bodyguard for the day and then get into a fight?

    I hate to advice this because CR is not a good thing to base class abilities on, but you might want to make entrapment based off of CR not HD. This is because:
    1) at 1st level you're entraping creatures with a CR ranging upwards to 3 (supposed to be 3 times as strong as you are), and with abilities that are noticeably greater than what a single character in a party should have.
    2) at high levels monsters fall under two categories highly powerful magical abilities and beatstick; beatsticks quickly have too many HD to be affected, but the others (example Pit Fiend) are easily affected.

    This is limited somewhat in game by the DM having the ability to only send things tailored to not be abusable, but ultimately the class feature breaks with several monsters in the MM. It has many of the flaws that the Planar Binding line of spells has (and that's without the wizard and you teaming up to summon things to entrap).

    Absorb Key: again you should spell out what counts as a trait better; for example can you copy its Str score? What if you copy its Con score do your hp change, or do they stay the same like they do for most shapechanging abilities? Also note that the discussion about permanent keys being destroyed is detrimental since they are no longer destroyed before you can make permanent keys. Duration at Lv 15 is also far too long; it's already Shapechange (with a limit of higher than your hit die which is a big no-no) it doesn't need a duration measured in days (10s of minutes makes it enough for most adventures already). Also what action does it take?
    Peanut Dracolich avatar by Emperor Ing.

    My homebrew (now includes a giant undead brain)

    If you ever want to try some of my homebrew and need a DM send me a PM.

    Gonna be busy for a bit this weekend expect responses to be limited in time frame.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    So many questions @_@
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Spirit Companion: How many hit dice? Do the draconic and lupine companions have any natural weapons? What's its Dex score? Str score? AC should probably be less because you can equip it with items that boost it further. What happens if it dies? How long does it take to call a new one? What action is it for it to transform? Can you communicate with it telepathically or how do you communicate with it? If telepathically what range and what's its Int? What's the range on frightful presence? At 1st level it is strictly better than being a sorcerer (fey).
    Any stat not mentioned is shared with the master, Ah I forgot to add death penalties didn't I, it never totally dies, it just is forced to go away for 24 hours to regenerate its essence (its a manifestation of your very soul after all), Movement equivalent, Telepathically, range = Charisma x100ft (Same as its range that it can leave you), range on fright is charisma mod x10, Maybe. But I think it balances out quickly enough.
    What action is it to summon an entrapped creature? Is there a limit to the number of creatures you can entrap at a time (honestly there should be a rather low limit, especially as they are fairly auto-replenishing)? Also do you have to personally deal the last blow? Also duration should probably be shorter, and what if you summon it to be your bodyguard for the day and then get into a fight?
    standard, there wasn't originally (just a limit on entrapped creatures active, maybe just a limit to active creatures in a day? I intend for them to be versatile in this way, Keepers trading keys around like collectable cards or something xD), but I thought of using class levels, Yes (or your Spirit Companion, summoned creature, entrapped creature), um... it would fight for you?
    [QUOTE]

    Absorb Key: again you should spell out what counts as a trait better; for example can you copy its Str score? What if you copy its Con score do your hp change, or do they stay the same like they do for most shapechanging abilities? Also note that the discussion about permanent keys being destroyed is detrimental since they are no longer destroyed before you can make permanent keys. Duration at Lv 15 is also far too long; it's already Shapechange (with a limit of higher than your hit die which is a big no-no) it doesn't need a duration measured in days (10s of minutes makes it enough for most adventures already). Also what action does it take?
    The Days measurement is for things like assuming someones identity temporarily, getting into a guild or school long enough to steal files or get close to someone, that kinda stuff.
    Last edited by Cipherthe3vil; 2011-05-31 at 01:59 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Spirit Companion [Extraordinary]:
    The Keeper has a spirit companion, this companion is a representation of the Keeper's own soul. It can shapechange between its full form and any harmless tiny creature.
    It has 1d12 HD, AC 15+Class levels. Saves equal to your own, immune to constitution based effects, needs not sleep, eat, drink, or any other function. It sees what you could see (if you were standing where it was), and can go ethereal at will.
    Its BAB is equal to your own, same with Speed, Initiative ect. Beyond that there are different types:
    What's its touch/flatfooted Armour Class? Can it wear items? Can it activate items? Does it get its own turn, or do you spend the actions to have it do things? What size is its natural form?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Draconic: Your companion is draconic in appearance, It has a Breath weapon in a 30ft cone dealing a chosen energy damage. (1d6 per Class levels), Its breath weapon reflects itself in the color patterns of your companion. Breath can recharge every level on a roll of 6 on a d6. on a roll of 1, you cannot recharge for four rounds.
    This is rubbish. Like, seriously. Your main class feature is you get to deal 1d6 damage per class level in a small cone less than once every six rounds. Does it allow a Reflex save for half like most breath weapons?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Feline: Your companion is catlike, whether it be from a Tiger, Lion, cheetah or otherwise. base land speed increases by 20ft, low light vision (or darkvision if already have low-light) Has two claw attacks dealing 1d4 per class levels, and attacks twice (one for each claw) if both land it can Shred the target dealing an additional 1d4 per class levels.
    Can you take weapon finesse to key the attack off of dexterity instead of strength? Can you enchant the creature's natural weapons? Can you use Power Attack through it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Lupine: Your companion is wolf like in appearance. It has a howl attack that deals 1d4 Sonic damage per class level to all within 60ft radius, dealing extra damage(x2) to crystalline objects and creatures. on a Fortitude saving throw (Just use CHA for undead)
    You know, more often than not your part are within 60ft. As is 300 tonnes of rock sitting above you in a dungeon. Damaging either will not end well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Demonic: Your companion is demonlike in its appearance. It has a hellfire attack in which all attacks it uses deal an extra evil aligned fire damage equal to you class levels. Demonic companions are usually humanoid, and can use normal weapons. if not, they usually have horns dealing 1d6 piercing damage per class levels on a charge.
    Again, same questions as for the cat. It is significantly weaker than the cat, though, unless you invest a significant chunk of wealth into weapons for it. You can align fire damage? Does that mean it only affects evil creatures? Does it allow it to get through DR/evil?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Angelic:Your companion is Angelic in its appearance. It has a holy light attack in which all its attacks deal an extra good aligned fire damage equal to your class levels. Angelic companions are also usually humanoid and can use weapons. If not, Non humanoid angelics are usually avian in appearance and can use wings or a tail for damage dealing 1d4 damage per class levels as bludgeoning damage.
    Same questions as for the devil. It's technically better, as it doesn't have to charge to use its attack.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Specter:Your companion is wraithlike. It has a frightful presence with a save DC equal to 10 +1/2 class levels +Charisma modifier (which is the same as your CHA mod +2) on a fail, they are shaken at a range of charisma mod x10 ft. It can also, through a touch, inflict a fort save with the same DC for 1 constitution damage per class levels.
    One contitution damage per class level as a standard action (as much as you want) is pretty rediculous. You're dealing 0.5HP damage per level per hit die, plus the extra effects of losing constitution (like straight up death). Ok, a lot of things can get around Con loss, but those that can't are going to be absolutely wrecked by this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Fey:Your companion is feylike, usually in the form of Fairy like creatures or rarely something like a Nymph or Dryad. If not humanoid, its often the form of a magical beast. It has the power to use a single subtype of a school of magic as spell like abilities at the same rate as 1/4th Sorcerer's Spells per day and spells known starting at 1(sor) at 1(Kep). then 2(sor) at 4(Kep), ect.
    So your main class feature is severely limited sorcerer casting? How many times can you use them per day? The same as a sorcerer? By "1/4th Sorcerer's Spells per day" do you mean "as a sorcerer one quarter of your level" or "spells of a level one quarter your level"?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    20: Your Spiric companion can shapechange to any Humanoid, Gains your saves +4, another Type (Draconic Feline for example), and is its own person now, not just an extension of yourself. Thus capable of its own decisions (If not going against the Keeper), its own likes and dislikes and attractions.
    Does it still keep your ability scores (and if not I guess it raises the question of what happens if you shapechange)? Is there really any point in having two types? You can still only use one per turn, and they're mostly just ways of doing damage. What does the gaining of 'free' will actually mean in game terms? Does it change how the creature acts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Entrapment [Extraordinary]:
    Any creature you kill must make a will save DC 10 +1/2 class levels +Charisma modifier. On a fail, their body crystallizes into a small key shaped construction.
    Can they still be raised? What happens to the key if they are raised? The ability to potentially stop resurrection seems far too powerful for a first level character.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    The Keeper may at a later date call the creatures name as a standard action, which is intuitively known after Key conversion, The key disappears and the creature reappears in a space close to you usually where you pointed the key as you re-summoned it.
    You can only Entrap creatures with CR not exceeding your own class level. After used, The creature lives again teleported away to a random location it would normally exist or somewhere random if such a place is no longer in existence. The creature has no memory of you. Creature vanishes after Caster level +4 hours or at the end of the fight, encounter or reason for summons which ever is shortest. Creature has no memory of you, but may be drawn to you (in curiosity, attraction or anger) but does not have memory.
    Does it actually do anything when let out? I can't see any instructions on how to actually use it. Do you control it? Do you have to try and convince it to do something? If the creature can't remember you but still remembers that it wants to kill all humans/destroy the world/run off and save its wife, does it still hang around and not attack?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Keepers can use another Keeper's keys if traded, or willingly given.
    "Hey 20th level Keeper, I'll buy that 20th level wizard in a key off of you in return for a favour from my wizard friend."
    "Sure thing, eleventh level character."


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    10: You may use a key a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier before the Vanishing.
    20: If creature is willing, You can create permanent keys. Creature Key'd is ageless, and looses personal will. (cannot act against owners wishes) These keys are called Bindings.
    Why would anyone agree to this?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Special: only one Key can be active at a time per point of Charisma modifier. Total HD of active keys cannot exceed your class levels x5
    afternote: There is no limit to amount of keys you can possess, however you can only USE a number of them equal to class levels in a day other restrictions mentioned apply.
    So you can potentially have up to 5 extra characters of your level on the playing field. I pity the DM who has to be able to accomadate that variance in power into encounters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Absorb Key [Extraordinary]:
    You can absorb Key made from Entrapment to gain 1 feature of the creature in the key per use you would normally have to summon it. Permanent keys destroyed on absorption and give charisma mod +5 features.
    Features include the ability to turn incorporeal, or a Breath Weapon, Appearance, Gaze attacks ect. Only physical abilities can be absorbed, Not mental such as the ability to use Psilike or spellike abilities or gain knowledge from them.
    Can only have a number of features active equal to your class levels. You can assume the form for 1 round per Charisma point.
    Have you got the duration and number of active features the wrong way around?
    Last edited by elpollo; 2011-05-31 at 04:54 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    I think you've got a really good idea going on, but as other people have mentioned, it is very incomplete on the descriptions, and leaves a lot of guesswork.
    Some companion types don't have 'normal' attacks, and the progression (up to 20d4/d6) require a lot of rolling, especially since they're mostly on-demand, so we can expect to see them coming along every single round. The Feline is probably the most powerful, having the potential at lvl 20 to easily deal 60d4 damage per round. Which at the same time makes it the most bothersome companion, of course. Imagine having to roll and count the results of 60d4... Each round! Now; that's and average of ((30x3)+(30x2)) 140 damage per round. Not overpowered in itself.

    However, when we add the various summons and the key summons to the mix, things get shaky.

    Which brings me to another point: I love the key idea, but it does mean that for each kill you make that fails their save, you need to keep track of another monster.
    I don't know how many keys you can have active at any given time, and how many summons you can have active at any given time, but I think this class has the potential to be a mobile army of sorts... All of which you have to track, and all of which count up and up in terms of balancing issues, making it hard to see at first glance just how this class will pan out.

    So if I may make some suggestions: Explain every single possible detail of every single ability (as if you're writing it for absolute idiots. Always take the idiot-standard when you're making something new. :P ), simplify many of the abilities so that they don't require as much paperwork as they do now (this is the really hard part), and maybe analyze on the potential power of this class, or better yet: All o the combined summons.
    Last edited by Dryad; 2011-05-31 at 07:16 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Perhaps to simplify the keys, going along Dryad's (very sensible) comments on the matter, you should start with looking carefully at necromancers and the way they deal with their hordes of undead. If you could bring this more in line with the numbers/power levels/management of necros, it would make life easier and serve well on game balance. Included in doing this would be to set a max. HD limit per creature, not just a CR (equate to wildly different things sometimes!).
    Also...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    ...however you can only USE a number of them equal to class levels in a day...
    Too much. Again, should have a HD restriction (or similar) per day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    I think you've got a really good idea going on
    I agree, the concept itself is elegant and sweet, but it's MIGHTY jagged round the edges and too vague by far as it currently stands.

    I'd like to see some minor abilities, for flavour and to fill up all those terrible dead levels, a few skill bonuses perhaps, but most importantly (for me right now, since the rest is more tidying up than anything else) you need to sort out defence...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Keepers are not proficient with any armor, shields, and are only proficient with simple weapons.
    They have no spells or SLAs or ANYTHING to boost their AC, and you're asking them to spend some of their measly 7 feats on being able to stay alive...I think this needs attention.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Perhaps to simplify the keys, going along Dryad's (very sensible) comments on the matter, you should start with looking carefully at necromancers and the way they deal with their hordes of undead. If you could bring this more in line with the numbers/power levels/management of necros, it would make life easier and serve well on game balance. Included in doing this would be to set a max. HD limit per creature, not just a CR (equate to wildly different things sometimes!).
    Also...
    Too much. Again, should have a HD restriction (or similar) per day.
    Aight. That sounds very reasonable...

    I agree, the concept itself is elegant and sweet, but it's MIGHTY jagged round the edges and too vague by far as it currently stands.
    Who doesn't love Pineapple?
    I'd like to see some minor abilities, for flavour and to fill up all those terrible dead levels, a few skill bonuses perhaps, but most importantly (for me right now, since the rest is more tidying up than anything else) you need to sort out defence...
    Suggestions are welcome.
    Defense as well as attack is supposed to be centered on their ability to Absorb, Summon, and general creature control. ... Brilliant! Command abilities.... I'll think of some.
    They have no spells or SLAs or ANYTHING to boost their AC, and you're asking them to spend some of their measly 7 feats on being able to stay alive...I think this needs attention.
    Absorb, Take on a creatures Fire resistance or Natural armor, stuff like that.





    *Not done yet, Replying to comments in reverse order*
    Last edited by Cipherthe3vil; 2011-05-31 at 01:33 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Who doesn't love Pineapple?
    I don't when I can't even tell what the pineapple is supposed to be or do. Your work is less "rough around the edges" and more "hard to decipher and purposely vague." It doesn't take much to simply cover all angles so when people PEACH your work we don't have to go through twenty questions.


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    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
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    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Suggestions are welcome.
    Shall put my thinking cap on (may take a while, it's age 13 )
    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Defense as well as attack is supposed to be centered on their ability to Absorb, Summon, and general creature control. ... Brilliant! Command abilities.... I'll think of some.
    Erm....glad I could help?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Take on a creatures Fire resistance or Natural armor, stuff like that.
    I don't think you'll be able to take enough on to make up for the complete lack of armour. Even if you allow all absorbed NA bonuses to stack it wouldn't be enough imho, you need more. Perhaps allowing Cha bonus to AC and maybe a class bonus here or there, e.g.
    2nd level, Cha mod to AC.
    4th level, +1 deflection bonus to AC, increasing by an additional +1 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter (max +5 at 20th).

    Helps fill in levels too (alterior motives, argh!)
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    I think you've got a really good idea going on, but as other people have mentioned, it is very incomplete on the descriptions, and leaves a lot of guesswork.
    Some companion types don't have 'normal' attacks, and the progression (up to 20d4/d6) require a lot of rolling, especially since they're mostly on-demand, so we can expect to see them coming along every single round. The Feline is probably the most powerful, having the potential at lvl 20 to easily deal 60d4 damage per round. Which at the same time makes it the most bothersome companion, of course. Imagine having to roll and count the results of 60d4... Each round! Now; that's and average of ((30x3)+(30x2)) 140 damage per round. Not overpowered in itself.
    How do you figure 60d4 0_o ? I'll change dynamic to static numbers, d4 < 2 d6 < 3
    However, when we add the various summons and the key summons to the mix, things get shaky.

    Which brings me to another point: I love the key idea, but it does mean that for each kill you make that fails their save, you need to keep track of another monster.
    I don't know how many keys you can have active at any given time, and how many summons you can have active at any given time, but I think this class has the potential to be a mobile army of sorts... All of which you have to track, and all of which count up and up in terms of balancing issues, making it hard to see at first glance just how this class will pan out.
    Keeping track of such things would the a cost of playing a Keeper. Keepers 'gotta keep track of their kept Keys.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    I don't think you'll be able to take enough on to make up for the complete lack of armour. Even if you allow all absorbed NA bonuses to stack it wouldn't be enough imho, you need more. Perhaps allowing Cha bonus to AC and maybe a class bonus here or there, e.g.
    2nd level, Cha mod to AC.
    4th level, +1 deflection bonus to AC, increasing by an additional +1 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter (max +5 at 20th).

    Helps fill in levels too (alterior motives, argh!)
    Nonproficient armor use is a valid option here; one could rely on the companion to contribute and just cower behind a tower shield + full plate. This would be irksome every time the companion dies, but the class could function with wearing armor without proficiency.
    Last edited by Glimbur; 2011-05-31 at 01:51 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    How do you figure 60d4 0_o ? I'll change dynamic to static numbers, d4 < 2 d6 < 3
    She's referring to how each claw deals 20d4 at 20th level, and you have the Shred ability which deals another 20d4. If both claws hit, they each deal 20d4 and then the feline shreds for an additional 20d4, for a total of 60d4. And, because both claw attacks are at the feline's highest Base Attack Bonus, she's correct, it would be rather easy to make them both hit.
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    Even with six blood thirsters, I still wouldn't be dealing tons of damage...
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    That's because you don't have a Trinity Force.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    This would be irksome every time the companion dies, but the class could function with wearing armor without proficiency.
    There's a difference between 'could function' and 'has to function'. Most (if not possibly ALL) classes which do not have any armour proficiencies at all will have AT LEAST 1 class, spell or spell-like ability etc which makes up for the fact.
    Besides, I count 7 class skills which would take penalty if you were to wear armour without proficiency, and the average BAB suggests this class WANTS to be able to hit something (which they couldn't do effectively if wearing armour without proficiency).
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by elpollo View Post
    This is rubbish. Like, seriously. Your main class feature is you get to deal 1d6 damage per class level in a small cone less than once every six rounds. Does it allow a Reflex save for half like most breath weapons?
    Most player usable breath weapons are usable Once, I figured recharge was better then once. I can let it be at will if ya really think thats better. These attacks aren't the "main class feature" at all.

    Also (I started from the bottom of this) I think I'll add Granted Powers for each type.

    Can you take weapon finesse to key the attack off of dexterity instead of strength? Can you enchant the creature's natural weapons? Can you use Power Attack through it?
    That sounds pretty good, the dexterous cat dealing damage using more skill then power... Ah, depends on the cat I guess.

    You know, more often than not your part are within 60ft. As is 300 tonnes of rock sitting above you in a dungeon. Damaging either will not end well.
    Meh. problems are problems, Though I will add that it doesn't effect allies.

    Again, same questions as for the cat. It is significantly weaker than the cat, though, unless you invest a significant chunk of wealth into weapons for it. You can align fire damage? Does that mean it only affects evil creatures? Does it allow it to get through DR/evil?
    Adding damage to what ever attack you do is weak? a Scythe, Bastard Sword, or fist.
    Its good aligned, just like when ever you read things that align attacks, For purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

    Same questions as for the devil. It's technically better, as it doesn't have to charge to use its attack.
    I guess it shouldn't have to be used only on a charge...

    One contitution damage per class level as a standard action (as much as you want) is pretty rediculous. You're dealing 0.5HP damage per level per hit die, plus the extra effects of losing constitution (like straight up death). Ok, a lot of things can get around Con loss, but those that can't are going to be absolutely wrecked by this.
    Ah, looks like I didn't add times per day. mybad.

    So your main class feature is severely limited sorcerer casting? How many times can you use them per day? The same as a sorcerer? By "1/4th Sorcerer's Spells per day" do you mean "as a sorcerer one quarter of your level" or "spells of a level one quarter your level"?
    What, you'd rather have a minion/companion/w/e be able to cast spells as well as your sorcerer teammate?

    Does it still keep your ability scores (and if not I guess it raises the question of what happens if you shapechange)? Is there really any point in having two types? You can still only use one per turn, and they're mostly just ways of doing damage. What does the gaining of 'free' will actually mean in game terms? Does it change how the creature acts?
    Its all fluff. they retain their scores, just change size and body shape/ organs ect. But not special abilities.

    Can they still be raised? What happens to the key if they are raised? The ability to potentially stop resurrection seems far too powerful for a first level character.
    Considering their body is now a key, If someone with the capability could steal the key and cast a Break Enchantment, Wish, Miracle ect and return the key to the *dead* body, it can then be raised. Could lead for a nice side quest to get back a PC's buddy or important NPC from a rogue Keeper.

    Does it actually do anything when let out? I can't see any instructions on how to actually use it. Do you control it? Do you have to try and convince it to do something? If the creature can't remember you but still remembers that it wants to kill all humans/destroy the world/run off and save its wife, does it still hang around and not attack?
    I actually didn't stay how to use it that time. Usually its there and ignored -_- I'll fix it.

    "Hey 20th level Keeper, I'll buy that 20th level wizard in a key off of you in return for a favour from my wizard friend."
    "Sure thing, eleventh level character."
    You may have it but you couldn't use it, not to mention what DM would have a 20th level keeper so friendly with PC's that they'd give away their best keys.

    Why would anyone agree to this?
    Agelessness, If your killed you simply disappear with no memory. Its like a bonus life... that you don't age.
    Then, you could always trick'em.

    So you can potentially have up to 5 extra characters of your level on the playing field. I pity the DM who has to be able to accommodate that variance in power into encounters.
    .. .. .. It would seem so, yea. Having only one at once sounds reasonable enough.

    Have you got the duration and number of active features the wrong way around?

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Keeping track of such things would the a cost of playing a Keeper. Keepers 'gotta keep track of their kept Keys.
    I.. Didn't mean it quite like that.
    What I meant was: You have to make a monster sheet for each key, for your spirit companion, and you'll probably make monster lists for your summoned creatures as well (augment summoning?) Each of these is different, and there are many options to pick from; one for each situation. So are you going to make sheets for everything?
    And if so; how much time do you need on deciding what to use?
    You'll be scribbling damage and other effects for each of your minions, keeping track of everything, and you're not the only one who pays the price for that: While you are doing your thing, the rest of the party won't do much at all. Even the DM wouldn't do much in comparison. Your turns could easily last thrice as long, if not longer, than other people's turns.

    Then there's the problem with human error; the more notes you need to make and compare, the more likely you are to overlook things, misinterpret, or otherwise mess up, causing even more time-loss, until most of the game evening consists of the keeper making her calculations while the rests talks about the weather or Master Chef.

    And to be honest: It's not easy simplifying a system, making it more user-friendly. In fact, that's probably the hardest part of writing game material.
    Last edited by Dryad; 2011-05-31 at 06:11 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    I.. Didn't mean it quite like that.
    What I meant was: You have to make a monster sheet for each key, for your spirit companion, and you'll probably make monster lists for your summoned creatures as well (augment summoning?) Each of these is different, and there are many options to pick from; one for each situation. So are you going to make sheets for everything?
    And if so; how much time do you need on deciding what to use?
    You'll be scribbling damage and other effects for each of your minions, keeping track of everything, and you're not the only one who pays the price for that: While you are doing your thing, the rest of the party won't do much at all. Even the DM wouldn't do much in comparison. Your turns could easily last thrice as long, if not longer, than other people's turns.

    Then there's the problem with human error; the more notes you need to make and compare, the more likely you are to overlook things, misinterpret, or otherwise mess up, causing even more time-loss, until most of the game evening consists of the keeper making her calculations while the rests talks about the weather or Master Chef.

    And to be honest: It's not easy simplifying a system, making it more user-friendly. In fact, that's probably the hardest part of writing game material.

    I don't know anyone who manages all their affairs on their turn. We always roll attacks prior to our turn, add our own damages to our HP as the next player does his stuff. And you won't be having nearly as hard a time as you make out. For one, All your keeping track of are active monsters. And if you don't want to keep track of five monsters, don't use all five at once.
    Ah thats right, I was going to make it ONE at a time, editing now.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Ehm...
    I would think that kind of play is only really possible in very stable combats..
    With the group I play with, the playing field changes so often, that rolling ahead of your actual turn is usually void, as you might need to reconsider your actions.

    And if you don't want to keep track of five monsters, don't use all five at once.
    That's like saying 'if you don't want to roll all those attacks, then don't use a full attack action.'
    If a class can do something, then not using that because of the hassle is, in my opinion, a design flaw (in either the class or the player ).
    Summon [Spell-Like]:
    Cast Summon Monster at +1 spell level per Summon feature. (Summon monster I, Summon monster II ect) Each one is usable a number of times equal to 1/2 class levels +Cha mod -spell level. Caster level = Class levels.
    Scenario: The party is all lvl 5, and just crossed a dungeon with a few encounters. The Keeper has spent half her Summon spells; her Charisma score is 18.
    The final combat is a 'boss-fight' scenario.
    The Keeper has one Companion active, and one Key active, and summons her first monster (Summon Monster III) while she commands her key and companion to attack. Three monsters active at the end of the round.
    The rest of the group does their things.
    Round two:
    Monster III(1) attacks, key attacks, companion attacks, Keeper summons MIII(2) because summoning an additional creature is better than attacking with a measly club. Four monsters active.
    Round three: MIII(1), MIII(2), key and companion attack, Keeper casters MIII(3). Five monsters active.
    Round 4: MIII(1), MIII(2), MIII(3), key and companion attack. The Keeper only had half her spell lvl III conjurations left before, so she can't summon any more of those.. But she has half her second lvl conjurations to spend.. So she conjures MII(1). Six monsters active.
    Round 5: Pretty much the same. Seven monsters active.
    Round 6: MIII(1) disappears (caster level: 5). A new monster is conjured. Of course; you'll probably not get to this round in most fights; it should generally be over by now. But still; a boss-fight really deserves some longevity on the opponent's side, and fights this long do happen.

    All in all, the implications should be pretty clear: Fights don't last that long, and it's simply not worth it for a Keeper to auto-attack instead of conjuring something else.
    This means lots and lots and lots of paperwork. Try resolving, for instance, a fight with 6 Celestial Polarbears, one feline spirit companion and an 'Any Key,' each one of them making a full attack, the bears using their smites. That's a lót of dice, and I've still not gotten into the troubles with movement and placement.

    Edit: I think I overlooked something:
    Each one is usable a number of times equal to 1/2 class levels +Cha mod -spell level.
    This would indeed severely limit the amount of summons per day, but the point still stands that a summoning is a better use of time than a melee attack. However, it does mean you're also going to have to keep track of a more diverse army. :P
    Last edited by Dryad; 2011-05-31 at 07:39 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
    Ehm...
    I would think that kind of play is only really possible in very stable combats..
    With the group I play with, the playing field changes so often, that rolling ahead of your actual turn is usually void, as you might need to reconsider your actions.


    That's like saying 'if you don't want to roll all those attacks, then don't use a full attack action.'
    If a class can do something, then not using that because of the hassle is, in my opinion, a design flaw (in either the class or the player ).

    Scenario: The party is all lvl 5, and just crossed a dungeon with a few encounters. The Keeper has spent half her Summon spells; her Charisma score is 18.
    The final combat is a 'boss-fight' scenario.
    The Keeper has one Companion active, and one Key active, and summons her first monster (Summon Monster III) while she commands her key and companion to attack. Three monsters active at the end of the round.
    The rest of the group does their things.
    Round two:
    Monster III(1) attacks, key attacks, companion attacks, Keeper summons MIII(2) because summoning an additional creature is better than attacking with a measly club. Four monsters active.
    Round three: MIII(1), MIII(2), key and companion attack, Keeper casters MIII(3). Five monsters active.
    Round 4: MIII(1), MIII(2), MIII(3), key and companion attack. The Keeper only had half her spell lvl III conjurations left before, so she can't summon any more of those.. But she has half her second lvl conjurations to spend.. So she conjures MII(1). Six monsters active.
    Round 5: Pretty much the same. Seven monsters active.
    Round 6: MIII(1) disappears (caster level: 5). A new monster is conjured. Of course; you'll probably not get to this round in most fights; it should generally be over by now. But still; a boss-fight really deserves some longevity on the opponent's side, and fights this long do happen.

    All in all, the implications should be pretty clear: Fights don't last that long, and it's simply not worth it for a Keeper to auto-attack instead of conjuring something else.
    This means lots and lots and lots of paperwork. Try resolving, for instance, a fight with 6 Celestial Polarbears, one feline spirit companion and an 'Any Key,' each one of them making a full attack, the bears using their smites. That's a lót of dice, and I've still not gotten into the troubles with movement and placement.

    Edit: I think I overlooked something:

    This would indeed severely limit the amount of summons per day, but the point still stands that a summoning is a better use of time than a melee attack. However, it does mean you're also going to have to keep track of a more diverse army. :P


    Ah, But that same problem is just as annoying with Wizards, Druids, Sorcerers, and generally ANY class that can cast the Summon x spells.
    Its actually Less of a problem with the Keeper as she can use them less then a dedicated Wizard to summoning. Especially when they get Animate dead and walk around with multiple Pemenant undead minions.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Ah, But that same problem is just as annoying with Wizards, Druids, Sorcerers, and generally ANY class that can cast the Summon x spells.
    Its actually Less of a problem with the Keeper as she can use them less then a dedicated Wizard to summoning. Especially when they get Animate dead and walk around with multiple Pemenant undead minions.
    Just because the strongest classes in the game can do that, doesn't mean you should make a class that does, too.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Ah, But that same problem is just as annoying with Wizards, Druids, Sorcerers, and generally ANY class that can cast the Summon x spells.
    Its actually Less of a problem with the Keeper as she can use them less then a dedicated Wizard to summoning. Especially when they get Animate dead and walk around with multiple Pemenant undead minions.
    Wizard summons, and undead, will be weaker than the creatures you can get with keys.

    Level 17 wizard Summon Monster gets a CR 12 creature.

    Your key will be getting somewhere from 15 to 19.

    Level 17 wizard Summon Elemental Monolith gets a CR 17 creature, but takes your standard action each turn.

    Your key will be getting somewhere from CR 15 to 19, and you have a pet that will be dealing 128.5 each round (1d4 = 2.5 not 2).

    This doesn't compare to wizard summoning* it takes wizard summoning and laughs at it.

    *exception Gate which at least has a XP cost and is still known as the most broken spell in the game.
    Peanut Dracolich avatar by Emperor Ing.

    My homebrew (now includes a giant undead brain)

    If you ever want to try some of my homebrew and need a DM send me a PM.

    Gonna be busy for a bit this weekend expect responses to be limited in time frame.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Just because the strongest classes in the game can do that, doesn't mean you should make a class that does, too.
    Thats ridiculous. "The Strongest" are generic spell casters. I'm making a class BASED off having minions. So I don't see why they SHOULDN'T be able to do that.

    Editz: there, Zaydos gave a coherent answer unlike that one.


    I think I could limit something so your Key's aren't the same LV as you are.
    Last edited by Cipherthe3vil; 2011-05-31 at 09:57 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    There, I think its much more playable now.

    Changed Entrapments max HD, and a recharge to Summon. If no ones noticed yet, they also gain a deflection mod as has been requested due to lack of defenses. And the Types of the Companion have granted powers.

    I've also got to add some Commanding/Charm abilities....

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Thats ridiculous. "The Strongest" are generic spell casters. I'm making a class BASED off having minions. So I don't see why they SHOULDN'T be able to do that.
    Exactly: so comparing your class to the strongest in the game makes for a poor argument.


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    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    I would like to say that while other casters can continuously summon creatures to their aid, like wizards, sorcerors, clerics or druids, the difference is that all these classes have something better to do during their rounds after having summoned their first creature(s).
    So they won't waste their precious spell slots and turns on continuously summoning. Which means that while keeping track of one or two (animal companion/familiar) extra creatures takes up a little extra attention, they're largely free to attack as they please themselves, using instant spell effects.

    The keeper has only the choice of auto-attacking or summoning. And auto-attacking is really not that viable an option for this class.

    Edit: I see you replaced the summoning ability with the ability to cast conjuration and enchantment spells. Good choice! It adds some much-needed versatility, and the option to cast some much-needed buffs on your minions, as well as have some offensive casting ability (orbs).
    Me like muchly. ^_^

    It does mean, however, that the overall power might need some more revision. :P
    Last edited by Dryad; 2011-06-01 at 01:27 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Keeper [Peach, as always]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryad View Post

    The keeper has only the choice of auto-attacking or summoning. And auto-attacking is really not that viable an option for this class.

    looksie again, Summons been replaced.

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